I know exactly. It tells you exactly the world we are living in. Great show as always my friend, great to see you. Good evening and welcome to ayman, everyone tonight. Weve got Breaking News in the Election Interference Case. The Special Counsel has requested a Protective Order against donald trump. Plus were going to debunk Donald Trumps defense. Were going to break down the antiarguments his legal team and his republican allies are already making. Then, the women at the center of the criminal trial, what to know about judge tanya chutkan, and her surprising history with the ex president. Im Ayman Mohyeldin, lets get started. I read a lot of Breaking News this evening, just moments ago, a string of developments regarding Donald Trumps third and arguably most important indictment. Judge tanya chutkan, whos overseeing this case, just denied at trumps legal team an extension to respond to a Protective Order request from the Special Counsels office. Now, prosecutors filed the request for the Protective Order with the judge last night, asking that to trump be barred from disclosing any evidence in the investigation, as the Discovery Phase begins. In the request, the Special Counsel cited a post from trumps failed social media site that said, quote, if you go after me, im coming after you. Now, prosecutors argued that post suggests trump might intimidate witnesses by improperly disclosing confidential evidence received from the government. Now, trumps team had asked for extra time to respond to this order. But judge chutkan has now made it clear. Trumps team must respond by the original deadline that she laid out. Monday at five pm eastern. The ex president had already received a warning from the Magistrate Judge who oversaw his arraignment, that judge reminded trump then that it is a crime to influence a juror or when this and retaliate against anyone for retaliating information to the prosecution. Lets note here, this is all taking place before trumped actually goes before a judge chutkan for the first time. His first hearing is now scheduled for august 28th. At that time, we will most likely get a trial date. Now, a lot has already happened since tuesday when jack smith made public the 45page indictment against trump. To some, Indictment Fatigue might be setting in in america. After all, we have already gone through this twice before. But unlike the first two indictments issued in new york and florida, this indictment is different. Put it simply, it is way more important. As Richard Hastened writes in slate, forget Hush Money Payments to porn stars hiddens as business expenses. Forget showing off classified documents about iran attack plans to visitors. And then order in the pool guy to erase the security tapes. Forget even corrupt attempts to interfere with Election Results in georgia in 2020. The federal indictment just handed down by Special Counsel jack smith is not only the most important indictment bipolar, a former president donald trump, it is in fact the most the important indictment ever handed down to safeguard american democracy in the rule of law in any u. S. Court against anyone. Law as requested also mentioned, this trial isnt just about accountability for trump and his allies. It is about a pillar of our democracy. Free and fair elections. It is about ensuring our founding principles are protected. And that if another trumplike figure comes along someday, he or she will look at how this ex president was held account, and maybe, just maybe, think twice about trying to overturn an election. Joining me now to discuss this is my saturday night panel, for anthony coley, nbc justice and Legal Affairs hes also former director of the office of and former law to merrick garland. Cynthia alksne, nbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor. And olivia troye, former Homeland Security advisor and terrorism advisor to Vice President mike pence. Its good to have all three of you with us. Cynthia, ill start with you. There were already reports this week about how judge chutkan would likely move this case through very quickly. And i think we just got a glimpse of that today, with her swift response. Appearing to prove that point. Do you think her moves today set the tone for how she plans to see this case through . And what do you make of how todays string of legal news unraveled quite rapidly, i would argue . Right, and continues to unravel. Because the president , former president continues to tweet in violation of her order. For which, i feel sorry for the lawyers. Because they are obviously have no control over their client. He is either completely deranged, because a woman of color is telling him what to do. Or hes purposely trying to push her to do something that he can raise money on down the road. But its shocking that he was told not to retaliate against a witness, and thats exactly what he has done on the pence tweet. He was told not to interfere, and thats exactly what the threats that he has made are doing. And when she says we expect a report by monday, and his lawyer say, im sorry, we dont think that makes sense. We want more time. Then they have time to go on five Television Shows tomorrow morning, thats going to do nothing but enraged her. The one thing that the judge has absolute control over is his her calendar, and when that trial data is. And the one thing trump really wants is to delay the trial. And what hes going to find out is this trial is not going to be delayed. Shes going to push it, and push it very hard but, to be done before the election. You bring up a really important point, well dig into it a little bit about the lawyers for trump here. But let me just ask really quickly, as cynthia to explain to us, myself and viewers, the difference between a Protective Order, which is what the Special Counsels actually asking for here, and not a gag order. How do those two differ . Well, the Protective Order was something that just said, you are not going to you arent going to release the information about the witnesses. A gag order actually is stronger, which is, you are not going to speak on x y or z topics. Fanned whats really on also on the table here, is you have violated your terms of release. And maybe youre going to go in the back in handcuffs. Thats where we are on this. If he continues to push her, she may very well put him in the back the. If it was a regular person, ayman, if you had done this, if Ayman Mohyeldin the had violated terms of the release, the manner in which trump had done, you would be sitting in the back in handcuffs, eating a really bad cheese sandwich. The only reason why hes not doing that is because of politics. Im so glad you bring up that point. Every guy whos arrested, every person whos arrested in this country would be sitting in the back eating a cheese sandwich. Because this guy has gotten away with it for so long, and because there are so much strife in the country, it is a very difficult situation for her to manage him as a defendant. And shes going to have to walk very carefully. I was going to say, really quickly, sorry to step over you. But to your point, what we have seen time and time again, when his allies say, oh, trump is not receiving equal treatment. I would argue hes actually receiving special treatment because of who is. Because he is an ex president. Because hes now a president ial candidate. Hes getting away with things that me, or you, or any other normal citizen would never have been given the privilege to. Both in terms of the legal pace of this, but also just politically speaking. And, i want to get your thoughts, anthony, specifically about the Special Counsel here. In the Special Counsels request, they cite how trump has previously issued public statements on social media witnesses on social media, about witnesses, judges, attorneys and others associated with legal matters, pending against him. So, it seems to go without saying that this motion was necessary from the dojs perspective, very early on. It was absolutely necessary, amen, and they moved with the seed that we have all come to expect from jack smith. To cynthias point, right now, we have, on the one hand, a very aggressive prosecutor inject smith, the doj would say we pursue justice about the your favor is absolutely doing that. And he is in that independent, hes not some left wing idealogue that donald trump is trying to make him out to be. Now, to the second point, judge the chutkan, she is well known in legal circles as someone who is fair to all sides. But she also has a reputation for being tough. I would note, phil ayman, i think ive seen some commentary from you perhaps, that earlier in some of her january 6th cases, she sentenced defendants who were found guilty in her courtroom to even more time than the government requested. So, judge chutkan, shes the real deal. She has a reputation for having fidelity to the rule of law. And shes not going to be afraid of donald trump. Olivia, you are on this Network Earlier today. You mentioned how trumps third indictment is actually the culmination of a man who has run his entire life on lies. You are someone who worked in the white house, who saw the Inner Workings of these lies. What are your feelings as you see trump, you know, and his delay tactics here, denied . Well, its classic on who he is, right. This is a man who thinks he is untouchable. He thinks that he will get away with everything, and anything. I think you are going to continue to see him deflect. Youre going to see his inner circle of advisers deflect. The whataboutism that continues, that youre seeing play out. They will double down on it. Theyll attack people that they think they are threatened by. I just saw, hes out there attacking mike pence, still today. But this is what he does. I think that Protective Order, as someone who has been docked to personally by members of the trumps own cabinet, i will tell you, that is something to be taken very seriously. This is who these people are. They will try their best to intimidate witnesses. Theyll put information out about any of these individuals, whether its the judges jury, anything like that. Anything like private information. Any information they can use as a tactic, and as a dog whistle, to some of his more extreme followers, who will take action, or spread it, or do anything to engage in those threats. They will do. And they will do it time and time again. Thats how these people behave. You know, cynthia, some of us have described this as the most important case facing our democracy. Just because of what it portends as an outcome. Im curious to get your thoughts on whether we are being hyperbolic with it. Obviously, the other case, National Security is just as important, with the classified documents. But this case, really as i said in my introduction, is more than just about trump. Its about the rule of law, its about democracy, and whether or not we get a future authoritarian leader who may think twice about trying to overturn an election. I absolutely agree. The idea that we cant have a peaceful transition of power in this country alters the country completely. Im a big democrat, ive been a democrat my whole life. But i always go to all the i lived in washington, i go to all the inaugurations. I went to raegans, i went to bushs, i stand outside and cheer. Because its so magical that in our country we have a peaceful transition of power. Now we dont have it anymore. Weve had it since washington. And we dont, its gone. We lost our innocence in that way, as a country. Thats what trump has done for us. The only way to get it back is to assert that the rule of law is going to control, and we are going to go back to those democratic norms. The first thing that has to happen is this. There has to be a conviction in this case. It looks to me, after reading the indictment several times, even listening i havent listened to it when ali velshi read it. I did both because its so important. This indictment is overwhelmingly strong. And as soon as it gets to trial, the sooner the better, and we can begin to put our country back on the path of an organized decent democracy, where we have values, and when the loser concedes. And has a speech, and says they love the country, and they go to the inauguration of the next person. And the democrats and the republicans come together on that day, and cheer our country. But step one is a conviction in this case. It is very important that it happened quickly. Olivia, let me ask you about somebody you know well. Mike pence, hes obviously played a very Important Role in. This as we are learning. He was mentioned several times in the indictment. And we read in detail how time and time again he denied trumps request to overturn the election. What do you make of his fair weather stances on trump, at least certainly what he says in public, and what hes been doing behind the scenes, and when the indictment came down on tuesday, he said that anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president , but the very following day, he placed blame on trumps lawyers . Well i think that clearly tells you where the republican partys base is. It is the party of trump. And so i think pence finds himself consistently walking a fine line here between standing up for himself, which i think he should be more aggressive about, telling the truth about what happened, since he lived it, and he is a key witness in this case. He lived it firsthand. I think the thing is here, trump knows this. Pence is the one person who can really take him down. Because hes lived it. Not only has he lived the january 6th and the lead up to it, and everything that happened when it came to this particular case, but hes also lived all four years of that administration. He knows the g. O. A. T. , the fat, and the ugly. He saw the g. O. A. T. , the bad, and the ugly. And i think trump is actually will arit. For pence, i think he should stop waffling. I think what he does that, he makes himself look weak. I know hes lost a lot of confidence from other republicans who want him to take a stand, or moderate voters, even across the american people, people wonder why. The truth is on his side. Youve got that going for you, right . You did nothing wrong. You followed up. You stood your ground on that. So why go ahead, anthony. Eamonn, i was going to say, this is why this Protective Order is so important. Right before we came on air, we saw a post on trumps social media account where he attacked mike pence yet again for saying that mike pence, if i can backup for a second and perfect of a story. In early january, he tried to pressure mike pence yet again to overturn the election. Pence refused. And trumps response was, your two honest. Can you believe that, man . This is where we are. When i reread that in the indictment, when i just heard what olivia was talking about, in terms of being doxxed, this is somebody who olivia was telling the truth in dozens and dozens of witnesses in this case have been subpoenaed. Theyre telling the truth. They are at risk of being intimidated by this president , who is using language that we tend to see from deposed leaders and therapist countries. That we tend to see even from mobsters. He was the one who just said, if you come for me, im coming for you. Thats the language that we hear from of bosses, not former american president s. Whats also american, anthony, when you read the indictment, as lisa pointed, out the effort that trump and Jeffrey Clark at the doj went to try and convince other officials at the home of justice that they were Election Fraud allegations, which ultimately never proved to be true or were never substantiated. It goes to show you what degree they wanted to weaponize the department of justice against our elections. Please stick around, everyone, we have a lot more to discuss. Were going to squeeze and a quick break. On the other side of it, will knock down the possible defense damages trump and his legal team for putting forward in the Election Interference Case. Stay with us. Stay with us good for you, shingles doesnt care. Because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. But shingrix protects. Proven over 90 effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. Shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. An increased risk of guillainbarre syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. Fainting can also happen. The most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. Shingles doesnt care but, shingrix protects. Shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. Ask your doctor about shingrix today. Businesses need 5g solutions today. 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