All he wanted to do was impede a process thats, well, its stated there in the constitution. Thats all he wanted. Like a bank robber, all i wanted to do was rob a bank. Take all the money. This is exactly what he is charged for, and he admitted it. Yeah. You know, watching mr. Lauro and political defenders like Lindsey Graham, well talk about him in a minute, attempt to defend donald trump over the last couple days, its clear they dont have a lot to work with. Mr. Lauro is a real attorney, unlike some of the other attorneys trump had around him. He was a prosecutor. If he cant seem to come up with a cogent theory of the case of why donald trump was acting legally around the 2020 election in the days leading up to january 6th, because the evidence in the indictment, the allegations in that indictment are so overwhelming, theyre Hopscotching Around, hoping to find something. Nothing is hitting yet. Well, of course, theyre not going to find anything legally because theyre boxed in legal legally. Theyre going to lose legally. Theyre trying to create something for chinese religious cults that Run Conspiracy websites that maybe will catch hold. Something to catch hold on fox news and other networks where they can create an alternative set of facts. Of course, none of this, none of this has anything to do with defending donald trump legally. Right. Because, again, he started out talking about the First Amendment. Okay, thats fine. Something youd do in a political debate. Legally, he knows that holds no water. Again, at the top of the indictment, what do we have . We have jack smith saying, hey, anybodys free to say what they want to say about the election, even if they want to lie thatri. Thats his First Amendment right. Thats in the first couple paragraphs. They start by talking about the First Amendment. It doesnt hold water, and its such a stupid argument if you actually read this indictment, which a lot of people in fox news dont. They doodle on it. You know why . They dont want to read it. The Editorial Page of the Washington Post goes full, and they went full trump today. Never go full trump. You Never Go Full Trump. They blame it on the democrats. Willie, youre not going to believe this. They say joe biden is old. Hmm. So you have all of this going on, and then you have Lindsey Graham who is a lawyer saying, i dont trust juries now. Huh. Here, you have people who said, we dont trust American Democracy after donald trump loses, and now fox, some of the people on fox news, Lindsey Graham, some republicans are now saying, we dont trust the jury system. We dont trust American Democracy because trump lost. We dont trust the jury system because donald trump stole Nuclear Secrets and is being held to account for it. Donald trump tried to steal an election. They all know he tried to steal it. Lindsey graham said, im off this train. Then the three people and the hound dog chased him around Washington National reagan airport, and he said, okay, well, im back on the train. Its so bizarre, man. Its so bizarre. Theyre willing to trash every American Institution for a guy thats never been loyal to them. Lindsey graham said yesterday that donald trump cant get a fair trial in washington because of the jury pool in washington. Remember, in the e. Jean carroll case, the Defamation Case, when it was decided, marco rubio said that the jury system is a joke. Another lawyer saying the jury system in the United States is a joke. This is the way it works. Youre tried in the place where youre alleged to have committed a crime. As e. Jean carrolls attorney pointed out to us later on morning joe, those jurors were not from chelsea and tribeca. Some of them were from manhattan, but they were from other places around new york. Its how the jury system works. What youre hearing is fear from the politicians, that if they dont rally to Donald Trumps defense, even on this, even after reading this indictment, that theyre going to lose. Theyre going to lose his voters, and they might lose their own power. But after reading this, mika, after reading, people who work for donald trump, page after page after page of testimony, people that donald trump brought in to his inner circle, people that donald trump selected for Cabinet Members as his white house counsel, all saying the same thing. That donald trump tried to steal the election. Even after that . What is worth it for these people . What is it worth for the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page . What is it worth for Lindsey Graham to try to excuse an attempted coup . Whats that worth . I just i must say, sometimes, mika, you get frustrated because politically im too pragmatic. Right. I bend over backwards too hard to understand too many peoples views. You do. It frustrates you. Ive got to say, in this case, i theres no getting this. Ive been a member of congress. Its not worth this. Its not worth betraying your country. Its not worth Turning A Blind Eye to a coup. Its not worth going to the best schools in america, getting one of the best editorial jobs in america, reading this and knowing better and trying to blame Donald Trumps attempted coup, coup attempt on democrats that want to use this in an election, on the Biden Crime Family, on joe biden being old . Come on, man. Youre better than that. I know because i know you. Because ive been reading your work my whole life. Because i served with some of you in congress through difficult times. Youre better than this. Dont listen to me. Dont listen to the Washington Post or the New York Times or msnbc or cnn. Dont listen to podcasts. Just listen to the people who worked for donald trump. The people that donald trump selected himself. The defendants Vice President who personally stood to remain in office and gain by the defendants ticket, whom the defendant wanted him to rig the election. Mike pence refused. To the Senior Leaders of the Justice Department who stood to gain, they wouldnt have been acting Attorney Generals in the second term, they would have been the attorney general. They would have run the Justice Department if only they had gone along with Donald Trumps lie. Senior white house attorneys, the people who defended him when he used his office, when he used his office to ignore congress authorization of weapons to ukraine. Said, no, zelenskyy, you need to give me political dirt on my opponent, or im not sending you the weapons. They defended him through that. Here, every single senior white house attorney told him he was wrong, that he could not overturn the election and he needed to leave. Senior staffers on his reelection campaign. I mean, come on this isnt a liberal conspiracy. You can read your chinese religious cult websites all you want, but you know theyre lying to you. You know Kevin Mccarthy is lying to you. You know theyre all running scared, but scared from what . They are they what are they running from thats more frightening than an attempted coup against the United States government . Where cops were brutalized, four eventually died. American democracy smeared globally because of one former Reality Tv Host wanting to maintain power and become an authoritarian leader here in the United States. Whats worth that . Id say nothing. Absolutely nothing. And, yet, they continue to march america toward the cliff. Yesterday in washington, d. C. , for the first time ever, a former president of the United States was arraigned for his alleged efforts to subvert American Democracy. Just a few blocks away from where he took the Oath Of Office and from where his supporters carried out an unprecedented Act Of Violence just a few years later, donald trump pleaded not guilty to four Felony Charges stemming from his actions after the 2020 election. The charges, conspiracy to defraud the United States. Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. Obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding. And conspiracy against rights. No cameras were allowed in the courtroom yesterday. There were only around 100 people present. Trump in a blue suit and red tie was seated about 10 feet away from the man leading the prosecution against him, special counsel jack smith. When the former president s lawyers introduced themselves to the Magistrate Judge, they referred to their client as President Trump. The judge then referred back to him as mr. Trump. A reminder that everyone is equal in the court of law. The former president himself spoke only a few times, mostly to acknowledge he was aware of his rights. He was asked to state his name and age, to which he responded, donald j. Trump, john, and 77. Most of the arraignment typical in nature, but before trump agreed to the conditions of his release, the judge did give him an unusual warning. She reminded trump that it is a crime to try to influence a juror, to threaten or bribe a witness, or to retaliate against someone providing information to prosecutors. When asked if he understood that violating those terms could result in his bond being revoked, the former president said simply, yes. Lets bring in the host of way too early, White House Bureau chief at politico and author of at the big lie, jonathan lemire. Former legal attorney joyce vance. Justice correspondent ken dilanian. And founder of the conservative website the bulwark, charlie sykes. Ken, you were at the courthouse in an adjoining overflow room. Tell us what took place inside the courtroom and the relationship 20 feet or so apart between jack smith and donald trump in that room. Good morning, willie. Yeah, that was my one advantage from watching on video in the media overflow room, is that i could see jack smiths face. The reporters in the courtroom were behind him. I watched jack smith, who was sitting behind his Prosecution Team in the first row as donald trump entered the courtroom. Every other face turned to point toward the former president , of course, but jack smith did not. He stared straight ahead. He made a point of not looking at donald trump as he moved his way toward the Defense Table and sat down with his lawyers. I thought that was very interesting. Because there was a lot of observations that smith seemed to stare down trump at the arraignment in miami. He, of course, looked at trump at other times in the proceeding when he was talking. Just in general, i thought this was a much more sober and serious and even tense atmosphere at this arraignment than the one down in miami. Down in miami, the Magistrate Judge there was pretty loose, was making jokes, and the other interesting thing is that donald trump didnt say a word at the arraignment in miami. His lawyer answered on his behalf and pled not guilty. Yesterday, donald trump was essentially questioned, even grilled by the magistrate, asking him the standard questions that you would ask a defendant, you know, your name, your date of birth, and then, you know, sort of going through the list of charges and the potential penalties, which in some cases are 20 years or more for each count, and then giving him a series of instructions as conditions for release. The most important one she said was that he should not commit any crimes while free. Willie, as you said, that unusual instruction that he should not bribe or intimidate a witness. Well, i talked to lawyers afterwards who said that everything she said in terms of those instructions was standard for a defendant in washington, d. C. , except for that one. They hadnt heard that before. That was interesting. Also interesting was that the magistrate kept folks waiting, including mr. Trump, for 20 minutes. There was a period of sort of stone silence as the smith team sat at their table across from trump and his lawyers at their table. Todd blanche, one of trumps lawyers, appeared to be conferring with mr. Trump, reading what looked like the indictment and possibly explaining the indictment to mr. Trump. He seemed, you know, animated, inquisitive. People in the courtroom said he was looser perhaps than the last one. When he was asked his name, donald j. Trump, and he added john. When asked his age, he said, seven, seven, for 77. Ive covered trials in that courtroom and others that look exactly like it. For me, it was bracing. It was jarring to see former president sitting at the Defense Table in that courtroom. Next hearing scheduled for august 28th, three weeks from now, when a trial date will be set. There will be a lot of haggling and negotiating back and forth about when thatll be. Thats obviously critical to see whether itll get in and completed before the election. Joyce vance, i want to ask you about that admonition from the judge that ken mentioned. She told trump it is a crime to influence a juror, threaten or bribe a witness, or retaliate against someone working with prosecutors. Did it strike you . It is unusual, willie. The only time i can remember hearing a warning like that at arraignment is when i prosecuted someone who had firebombed the house of a witness, coming very close to injuring small children as part of the activity in a very violent drug organization. In that instance, the judge did admonish the defendant at arraignment. Not only that you can have your bond revoked and go back into custody if you commit new crimes, that part is standard, but talked with him specifically about taking any action against witnesses against him. So what comes to mind when you see a judge doing this with donald trump is, shes a good judge. She is being very careful. If she gets to a point down the road where there is a hearing about revoking trumps bond, she wants it on the record that she gave very specific advice that there could be no efforts to try to influence witnesses, jurors, anyone else involved in the case. She was dotting her is and crossing her ts. So let me ask joyce really quickly, im just curious, and im just curious. Donald trump hears that from the judge. He then goes out and, you know, says this process is a scam, you know, his usual witch hunt, scam, stuff like that. I dont know how judges, federal judges in alabama would respond to that where you practiced, but where i practiced in Northwest Florida, i suspect judge collier or judge vincent would throw my client in jail and call me in and dress me down and say, so you have a client that i admonish in my courtroom. He walks outside and says im conducting a witch hunt here. Im going to let him sit in jail until you can go in and i can tell you in Northwest Florida the judges would say, counsel, if you cant control your client, get off the case. If he says it again, im going to put you in jail. Now, i think for people that practice in Northwest Florida, thats not that much of a stretch. I mean, so im really surprised that any defendant is allowed to say that a judge is conducting a witch hunt and that the entire judicial system is a scam. So, joe, your courts in what we call lower alabama, and my court is in alabama. Look, you know, theyre not pleased by this kind of behavior. I also have the benefit of having started my career as a lawyer in washington and practiced in front of these courts where they do offer a little bit more room to ramble for defendants in these sorts of political cases. Heres the reason. I dont think any of us will like the reason, but its something that exists. Donald trump, who is now mr. Trump in court, is still a candidate to be president of the United States, and in the course of his campaign for that office, he has certain First Amendment rights. I think what the judges will do here is they will stand well back from the line where there could be any sort of litigation over whether they violated his rights. But i think that theres still a line there that Trump Cannot Cross. This sort of rhetoric that were all used to him, you know, expressing about witch hunts, that might cost him some jurors. If this case goes to trial during the voir dire process, there may well will witnesses who will be influenced by his comments and wont be able to set aside what theyve heard come from the former president s mouth. He may lose witnesses he would have liked to have had on the jury. Some of the officers who helped defend the capitol during the January 6th Insurrection were present for trumps arraignment yesterday. One, officer harry dunn, who joins us now. He is the recipient of the president ial citizens medal for his exemplary contributions to our democracy surrounding january 6th. He is also the author of the forthcoming book entitled, Standing My Ground, which will be released this october. Officer dunn, your reflections after watching this unfold yesterday . Good morning. Thank you for having me on. Yesterday, i didnt expect much. I didnt expect to find any new evidence or any revelations, but it was refreshing, if you will, so to speak, to see the president , the former president treated like any other criminal who violates the law, sitting in that courtroom going through the judicial process. You know, this obviously must have stirred some real emotions in you yesterday watching this, what has impacted you personally. Tell us a little bit about how you felt. Theres certainly no closure here yet. This trial is going to go on for months if not longer, but just in this particular moment, tell us what it meant to you. Yeah, it evoked a few emotions, you know, physical ones, too. I noticed i got an alert on my smart watch, and my heart rate was up over 100 beats a minute. It was shortly after he walked in the courtroom, just seeing him, you know, stirred up some feelings and emotions. But, like you said, it isnt closer. I said he should have been charged or investigated on january 7th. Its not closure, but there is accountability. Being held accountable for your actions, thats happening now, but justice looks to me justice looks like a guilty verdict. Officer dunn, good morning. Its great to have you back with us. You and some of your fellow officers, i know its not easy, probably not something you choose to do, but youve been coming out publicly and importantly reminding the country about what happened on that day. Because there have been so many efforts by trump and his followers to change the story and to say, no, actually what you saw isnt what happened. We know what happened. You know what happened from the inside. I would ask you, apart from what we saw yesterday, how are you doing . How are your fellow officers doing 2 1 2 years on from january 6th . Willie, good to talk with you. Think about it though, one of the reasons for me speaking out, its therapeutic. It helps me get my feelings, get me emotions out. Also, like you said, people are trying to whitewash what happened and trying to act like what we went through wasnt real. As long as that happens, you know, thats continuing to happen, we have to continue to speak out and push back against it. Violence is complacency. We have to have individuals that are willing to tell the truth about what happened and not just bystanders in democracy. Democracy isnt a spectator sport. We need people out there telling the truth about what happened, especially while there are so many people saying that what happened on january 6th didnt really happen. But as far as how im doing, i dont want to speak for all of my officers or coworkers, but, you know, some individuals have shared with me that this is a triggering experience and they want it to be over with. I think a lot of people do. Everybody expresses the sentiment they want it over with. Hell, i do, too. But here we are. Were moving slow, but were moving. It needs to be done. All right. Officer harry dunn. Thank you so much. Thank you. Greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your service. Thank you so much for your service. We greatly appreciate it. Thank you. The new book, Standing My Ground, is going to be released this october. I want to show the reaction of senator Lindsey Graham on trumps latest indictment ahead of the trumps appearance in court. Any conviction in d. C. Against donald trump is not legitimate. So theyre charging him with the crime of taking bad legal advice. Thats what this is about. Theyre trying to criminalize the Attorney Client relationship. Theyre trying to criminalize the exercising of the First Amendment. The judge in this case hates trump. You could convict trump of kidnapping lindberghs baby in d. C. You need to have a change of venue. You need a new judge. We need to win in 2024 to stop this crazy crap. I mean, it is so disgusting. So embarrassing. Lindsey knows better. He obviously knows better. But he is slandering the judge. He is attacking the jury system. It is very interesting, the judge, who is actually going to be overseeing the case, was unanimously confirmed by the senate in 2013 by a vote of 950. Unanimous. She was unanimously confirm confirmed by the senate. Again, just like the republicans used to defend the fbi, they were the ones defending the fbi against attacks from progressives. The second the fbi actually investigated donald trump, well, suddenly, they hate the fbi. Suddenly, they hate the military. They hate military leaders. They slander chairman of the joint chiefs. We can go on and on. Charlie sykes, you know, marco rubio slandered, you know, attacked the jury system. Now, Lindsey Graham is attacking the jury. We know and they know, the bedrock, the bedrock of our judicial system, we the people. Thats how madison had it set up. Anne applebaum wrote this yesterday, if the Republican Party responds to the Trump Indictment solely by attacking courts and judges, and its leaders continue to work to delegitimize the legal system, im not sure how we recover. Lets make this simple for people, charlie. Our former party from election day 2020 through january 6th trashed American Democracy. Right. Told americans and the world you cant trust fair and free elections if our side doesnt win. Fox news paid close to 1 billion for the lies they spread about the elelection, and they probably have to pay close to another 1 billion. We turned the page. What lesson is learned from that . Absolutely nothing. Because now, theyre trashing the judicial system, which i would say is, you know its madisons crown jewel. Its the Great Leveller of madisonian democracy. Now, theyre trashing that, again, for donald trump. Do you agree with anne here . Might be a little extreme for me, but she says, im not sure how we recover. I know mika does. I could not agree more strongly with what Anne Applebaum is saying. You know, yes, what Lindsey Graham and marco rubio are saying and its same old, same old. Its also, and this is where we need to seeing is a fullon attack of the Justice Department, attacking the judges, attacking the juries, they are seeing that the actions of the juries and the judges are illegitimate. What does that mean . Where do you go when youve basically knocked over all of the props of the rules of law . They may not be saying, okay, were going to be rejecting James Madisons design here, but this is where their hackery has led them. It is dangerous. Because if, that fact you know, some of the rhetoric youre seeing now, the biden regime where the fbi is the gestapo, keep in mind, this goes beyond demonization. You dont argue with the gestapo. You dont litigate with the gestapo. You go to war against the gestapo. The question is, if you doubt the legitimacy of the government, what do you think that people out in the country are going how do you think theyre going to react to all of this . This is very dangerous. Charlie, let me follow up on that, too. Yesterday, we get the news out of New Hampshire, i guess it was this weekend, you actually had the number two republican saying that he was going to go after the bureaucracy by, quote, slitting their throats. Slitting the throats of bureaucrats. Yeah. This, this is what ron desantis said. You have the most Senior Member of the Republican Party in the United States senate talking about hold on. Talking about how irs agents are going to go to his home state with ar15s and gun down middle class business people. This has become such a Violent Party with such violent rhetoric. Well, lets listen to ron desantis quickly and have you respond. All these deep state people, you know, were going to start Slitting Throats on day one and be ready to go. I mean, what . Where . Again, i was saying before, i dont understand whats Worth Trashing the rule of law, whats Worth Trashing American Democracy. I just ive got to say, i cant even imagine how our party got to a point where a frontrunner, a guy in second place, would say, im going after the deep state, and im going to start Slitting Throats on my first day in office. This is fascism, is it not . Well, look, its not just a race to the bottom. I wrote a piece, i think for msnbc a few months ago, saying the brutality is the point. And there is this contest now among the republicans. Its not just the cruelty is the point, its the brutality is the point. You listen, and it is as if there is a contest of who can be the toughest, who can be the most savage. Are we going to put drug dealers up against the wall and shoot them the day theyre convicted . You know, donald trump wants to put spikes on the top of the border wall. December nmsz comron desantis c hold my beer. Ill Slit Throats On My First Day in office. I think its not just the its not just the i guess its the crudity, and it is the appeal to this visceral sense of, we are not in a normal democratic order. We need to destroy our enemies because they are evil. And were going to use the most violent means necessary. Again, there is always the danger of being numbed by this, but this is dangerous. Thats right. Particularly when you have tens of millions of people out there who are listening to this and are trying to figure out, how do you respond . How do you respond to the gestapo . How do you respond to an illegitimate regime . What do we think is going to happen next year if this continues . Willie, there are consequences. I mean, you talk about how Public Servants are going to have their throats slit. You talk about how ir agents irs agents are going to be coming to hometowns in iowa and shooting people, gunning them down. You have, you know, these people saying that American Military is going to take helicopters that were used in afghanistan and bring them to the United States to Gun Down Trump supporters, that the fbi is coming to kick down doors, armed to go after trump supporters. This is all a calculated campaign. My god, it sounds like its a calculated campaign to whip up civil war, to create, to create a civil war where no civil war exists. And thats some perception of toughness, i guess, or masculinity or whatever ron desantis, who in a recent poll trails donald trump by 43 points, so i think trying to be the mini version of donald trump isnt quite working for him. But in some way, thats their vision of toughness. I guess they see donald trump doing it, and they figure its been working for him for eight years so maybe ill try this on, as well. Jonathan lemire, obviously, that kind of stuff and a whole bunch of Government Organizations and unions came out and condemned that rhetoric from governor ron desantis. He said it before. Its a line he uses out there, were going to slit the throats of members of the deep state, saying it figuratively we know, but, obviously, that kind of stuff, that culture, that language of violence can lead to real violence, which is what were talking about, why donald trump was in a courtroom yesterday. Yeah, we saw it happen. Trump, of course, has used violent rhetoric since his 2016 campaign, talking about Second Amendment people and Second Amendment solutions when invoking Hillary Clinton at times. Hes endorsed Act Of Violence at his rallies. We know he stirred up the crowd on january 6th with the tweet about it being wild. We know about his callout to the proud boys, stand back and stand by. This is something that has reallife consequences. It wouldnt just be january 6th. We have known that, as we discussed on many show, there are municipalities across this country having a hard time finding election volunteers, finding poll workers because of the threats they have received from trump and his allies. Rudy giuliani in particular in years past. Just last week, i spoke to white house officials before this indictment came down, but it was anticipated, and they talked about how theyve had to coordinate with federal Law Enforcement and state Law Enforcement about the rise in Political Violence that could be coming before next years election. This sort of rhetoric just adds fuel to those fires that are already burning, that are already simmering, and there is a real fear of an explosion again next year. Joe and mika, we talked to senior Law Enforcement last week. The number one threat in this country right now is domestic extremism and the idea of Political Violence could be on the horizon. Absolutely. Joyce vance, given the guidance that the judge gave to donald trump, american citizen, in the courtroom, equal under the law, what about his behavior might he need to curb if you were his attorney . What might you tell him to change in the days and weeks to come . So if i was his attorney, i would be in the unfortunate position of telling him he had to stop talking publicly about all of the cases against him, three, maybe four by the end of the next couple of weeks. I think something that we know at this point, its baked in, is that trump will not stop. He is constitutionally incapable of keeping his mouth shut, even when it is his own best strategy. Look, his lawyers are going to be fighting a losing battle. On the one hand, theyre facing very serious charges, and they get worse every time trump opens his mouth. I promise you that when the prosecution closes in a jury trial, they will play many of trumps own words. They will have, you know, posters that will depict his social media expressions. Because he seems to be engaged, and weve talked about this before, in this long, slow process of confessing in public. Much of the case against him comes out of his own mouth. Ken dilanian, give us a timeframe. Whats your best guess from reporting and also people you talked to yesterday at the courthouse and throughout the day, of the timeframe for this trial . When do we expect this trial to begin . Joe, it was very clear from that arraignment that this judge, chutkan, wants to get this to trial, as does prosecutor jack smith, and the trump side strategy is going to be delay, delay. There were three dates for the next hearing, august 21st, august 22nd and august 28th. Jack smiths team said we want the soonest date available, please, your honor. Of course, Donald Trumps lawyer said, wed like august 28th. He won the day because the magistrate has to defer to the schedule of the Defense Other who has other clients and other cases, but that was an example. They immediately started arguing about, you know, prosecutor said, our intention is to seek a speedy trial. John lauro said, wait a minute, we have to understand the spoke of the discovery, and theres reasons for delay. Thatll be the huge issue in this trial, is trump trying to delay it. But a lot of legal experts ive talked to think this is a streamlined case with one defendant, without the complexities of the classified documents that you have down in florida. Its very feasible, with the right judge, who is interested inalong, to get this case to trial before the november election and perhaps even before next summer. Its an average of a year and a half in d. C. For a complex case to go to trial, but theres every interest, at least on the prosecution side, and it appears by the judge, to get this case moving, guys. Nbcs ken dilanian and former u. S. Attorney joyce vance, thank you, both, very much for coming in this morning. Charlie sykes, thank you, as well. Still ahead on morning joe, House Speaker Kevin Mccarthy falsely compares Donald Trumps stolen election claims to actions taken by Hillary Clinton and al gore after they lost their own president ial races. Why do they lie through their teeth when they know this man has no low. Theres video to show theyre lying . Because they have platforms they can go on where nobody holds them accountable. Thats yet them lie . Yes, they let them lie and dont ask any questions, and they just can spew lies as long as they want to millions of people. They have a platform to do it. They dont play the video tape that shows, actually, theyre lying through their teeth. Never held accountable. Thats where were at. Plus, Fulton County District Attorney fani willis weighs in on the status of her years long investigation into Election Interference in georgia. What shes saying about any possible impact from the special counsels probe. Also ahead, as former President Donald Trump was in court, President Biden was on vacation. Well talk about that split screen between two men who could very well face off next year. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. When moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis takes you off course. Put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. When i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid Symptom Relief and helped Leave Bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc tried to slow me down. I got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. And when uc caused Damage Rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. Check. Rapid Symptom Relief. Lasting steroidfree remission. And the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. Check, check, and check. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. 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Available as vyvgart for iv infusion and now as Vyvgart Hytrulo for subcutaneous injection. Additional side effects for Vyvgart Hytrulo may include injection site reactions. Talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. We are following a development out of Southern California where navy sailors are under arrest for providing Security Information to china. Chief Foreign Affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell has details. Reporter the Justice Department says the two navy sailors have each been arrested for selling Military Secrets to china. Sensitive Military Information ended up in the hands of the peoples republic of china. Reporter the first defendant, 22yearold jinchao wei faces espionage charges. National defense information was sent to china, including documents, photos, videos and technical manuals. In exchange, his Intelligence Officer paid Wei Thousands of dollars. Reporter Authorities Say wei, a machinist on the uss essex in san diego, sent the chinese officer photos of Military Hardware and vehicles and information about warfare exercises. In a separate case, wenheng zhao from ventura, california. Federal Authorities Say zhao received 15,000 from a chinese Intelligence Officer in exchange for operational plans, Navy Movements and blueprints for a radar system at a Military Base in okinawa, japan. In short, zhao chose a path of destruction. Reporter the indictments come amid fears of espionage, with microsoft reporting chinesebacked hackers broke into the email accounts of state and Commerce Department employees, including the secretary of commerce. Andrea mitchell reporting for us there. Coming up on morning joe, were now learning what was and what was not discussed between Hunter Bidens business associate Devin Devon Archer and then Vice President biden. We will go through the transcript and show you how it contradicts what republicans like james comer have been saying. Were back in a moment. Let Innovation Refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. Rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. Clink dr. Marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. Emily used part of her refund to buy. I run a wax museum. Let Innovation Refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. Stop waiting. Go to innovationrefunds. Com you really got the brows. For too long, Big Oil Companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. Thats changing now. Joe biden passed a plan to jumpstart Clean Energy Production in america. Its creating good jobs that cant be outsourced and will lower energy costs. 1800. Thats how much a new report says the Inflation Reduction Act could save just the average American Family on energy costs. 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I mightve taken it a step too far. Chainsaw Revs tree crashes chainsaw continues daughter screams lets pretend for a second that you didnt let down your entire family. What would that reality look like . Well i guess i wouldve gotten us xfinity. And wed have a better view. Do you need mulch . What, we have a ton of mulch. Do you believe this is now officially the joe biden bribery allegation, and do you believe that you will be able to prove that . Jim comer. I sure hope so. I do believe that theres a lot of smoke, and where theres smoke, theres fire. We just heard testimony today all right. That joe biden lied to the American People. I sure hope so. That was the chair of the House Oversight committee, james comer on monday, claiming that theres a lot of smoke regarding theyre blowing the smoke in, then theyre saying theres a lot of smoke. Regarding Hunter Bidens business dealing. It is their smoke, actually. And whether joe biden was involved. He said that hours after the Committee Received closed Door Testimony from Hunter Bidens former business parter, devon archer. As we learned from Committee Member dan goldman, archer may have actually contradicted comers point. Yesterday, the transcript of that closed door interview was released, confirming goldmans account. Archer told the Oversight Committee that he has no knowledge of joe biden altering policy to benefit hunter. Archer also said he was present for roughly 20 instances of hunter putting his father on speakerphone in the presence of Business Associates. Archer said none of the conversations focused on business and that they talked about things like fishing and the weather. Lets bring in senior congressional reporter for nbc news, scott wong, who is covering the transcript. Also with us, Washington Post Opinion Editor and writer. Congratulations, alexi. Alexi mccammond. Congratulations on your new role. Thank you. Fantastic. So this is really something, scott. We have the republicans going out crowing, saying, oh, weve got him. Weve got him. Its sort of like what we were talking about earlier in the show, saying things that the transcript proved to be wrong. Go into the transcript and the socalled smoke around all of this. Good morning, guys. 141 pages of transcript were released by james comer, the gop chairman, yesterday. It just so happens that it happened just hours before donald trump was arraigned in federal court, as we all witnessed. So democrats believe that this was really rushed out, that this was an attempt to distract from trump being in court. Heres what we know so far. Upon reading through this transcript, devon archer testified to lawmakers that he had no knowledge that joe biden had committed any wrongdoing. He was pressed several time on that point, and that was a huge takeaway. Furthermore, as you mentioned, devon archer said that he had no knowledge or evidence that joe biden had changed policy, that he was impacted at all or changed u. S. Policy based on things that his son had done. So that really has undercut this argument from republicans like james comer, like jim jordan, that there was some inappropriatety, wrongdoing or illegality on the part of then Vice President biden. Hunter was clearly trying to trade on the biden name. Archer said that multiple times, that he was portraying this appearance or, in quote, an illusion of, you know, influence. So that was something that was very clearly stated by archer, that hunter biden was trying to impress his employer, burisma, the Ukrainian Energy company, but that no evidence of impropriety was done by President Biden. This was presented as a smoking gun almost, like, we got him. Here he is. Hunter biden on the phone with joe biden. We made the connection. As you read through the transcript, and ive been reading along, as well, it says the opposite. They ask him leading ask after leading ask. So, there were phone calls to joe biden. Arch says, yes, there were. Joe biden calls hunter every day. Sometimes at dinner, hed put him on speakerphone. He said it was about geography, weather, wherever the Vice President happened to be at the moment traveling somewhere. He says explicitly, it was never about business. Was there anything, to be fair here, as you read through the transcript that looked like it did, in fact, connect joe biden to hunter biden and his Business Dealings . No. Archer was pressed several times by both republicans and democrats about those roughly 20 instances over the course of the tenyear relationship between archer and hunter biden, where hunter biden would be hanging out at dinners or hotel rooms with Business Associates around the globe and, you know, because he spoke to his father on a daily basis, would oftentimes put his father on speakerphone. He was asked specifically, was business ever discussed . Was official business ever discussed . Anything related to burisma . The answer always came back from archer, absolutely not. They were, as we have discussed, talking about the weather, how is the weather in paris . How is the weather, you know, wherever hunter biden happened to be . They talked about things like fishing. That was very clearly established from devon archer, that there was no business ever discussed. However, republicans continue to insist that this is somehow evidence that joe biden was deeply involved in the Business Dealings. Again, no business was discussed according to devon archer. Hey, alexi, jonathan, congrats again on the new gig. As scott mentioned, there is a sense the republicans maybe rushed out this transcript here to sort of deflect from the attention of whats happening with donald trump. Another example perhaps of them doing trumps bidding. I was curious as to what you are hearing there. About a week ago, Speaker Mccarthy talked about an Impeachment Inquiry into President Biden, then tapped the brakes, and then after trumps rally, it was full steam ahead. Mccarthy is reluctant to defy trump, but he acknowledged theres no evidence there. Moderate republicans are saying, whoa, whoa, youre going to put us in a really bad situation. And to your point, its not just the moderate republicans anymore, its the far right folks like Marjorie Taylor greene, who is now conceding that it would be difficult to get many of her colleagues on board to actually move forward with an impeachment proceeding against President Biden. You know, youre exactly right, jonathan. Kevin mccarthy, i often am wondering whether he cares about republicans keeping the house in 2024. Because, so far, he seems singularly focused on helping donald trump win the primary and get reelected. As you just eluded to, there is Something Like 18 republicans who hold seats in districts that joe biden won by healthy margins across the country. These extreme, really baseless claims that joe biden is corrupt is not going to work in districts like that. Impeachment proceedings are a drag on the American People. Weve seen that in poll after poll. And republicans, as we see time and again, theyre having a really hard time running against themselves. They cant run against their own record because theyre not doing much for the American People. They dont want to run against donald trump because of all the problems that he has. So theyre trying to create this Boogieman Out of joe biden by way of hunter biden. Whats remarkable is that with control of the house, theyve created this committee to explore the weaponization of government. There are so many facts they should be willing to fair every share every day, but they cant find them. If they could, theyd tell us. Washington posts Alexi Mccammond and nbcs scott wong, thank you, both, for being on this morning. It is the top of the hour. It is go ahead. It is top of the hour, august 4th. Willie, you go through it all, Go Through What Comer i mean, theres one example after another where he just makes a fool of himself. He m comes out and says someth, and the opposite ends up being the true. And he knows. Look whats happened with durham and how humiliated he was by one screwed up indictment after another screwed up indictment, one acquittal after another acquittal. He has to end up rearguing his cases in his final report. Again, they keep trying to find something. Anything to distract from the fact that donald trump has been charged with stealing Nuclear Secrets, charged with stealing military plans, charged with trying to overthrow an american president ial election, and they keep sort of rummaging around for hunter biden and Biden Crime Family conspiracy theories. Again, let me say it again, this is our daily reminder to niche anybody watching. If hunter biden is guilty of anything, arrest him, charge him, let a jury convict him. Whatever will be will be, as we say here. The republicans, as alexi said, have nothing. They make fools of themselves, and they did it again. We get this transcript. They were crowing couple days ago, this proves joe biden is guilty. Then there was the informant, of course, who was a fugitive, an arms dealer, was Smuggling Iranian Oil illegally to the Communist Chinese. It goes on and on. We dont hear much about that star witness anymore, do we . We had Congressman Goldman on a couple days ago on morning joe and asked if theyve tracked him down yet. Said, no sign of him. Hes still a fugitive. Still an alleged agent of the chinese government. Still an alleged arms trafficker and, yes, once the star witness. Hes been pushed to the side. We also, joe, had jim hines on, the democratic congressman from connecticut, who said exactly what you said and what weve been saying for months and months. He said, if hunter biden committed a crime, convict him. Send him to jail. Thats all fair, and thats how the system works. But if youre wasting time and tying up the United States congress trying to find a connection that you havent been able to find for five years, is how long this investigation is going on, youd think by this point there would be fire to go along with the alleged Smoke Chairman Comer is talking about. You know, to have an honest conversation would be to start by saying, of course, there is a definite scenario in which we would be talking about hunter. There is inappropriate behavior, to say the least, going on there. But to cover it full throatedly yesterday, which i saw happening, when a former president is indicted for the third time, this time for overthrowing an election, is just dishonest. It is simply dishonest. It is packaged as what aboutism. Its ridiculous. Theyre distracting from the truth, which is their only game. Its their only game. Distract from the truth, the ugliness of trumpism, that its led to a man stealing Nuclear Secrets, stealing Military War Plans and stealing so many things. If i may, jared and ivanka, jared walking away with thousands of dollars from saudi arabia. Do we have time to talk about Family Members . Right now, were talking about a former president who is indicted for trying to steal our democracy, trying to deny voters their rights to elect a president. If we want to talk about Family Members and other stories related, there are many. There are many. At this point, The Hunter Story is being abused by republicans and used by fox news and other rightwing networks to try to deny the fact that the big story of the moment, probably of our lifetimes, is donald trump. You know, the question tried country. Jonathan lemire, how many times can they lie . How many times can the republicans lie and read on . Read the transcript. They lie about their star witness. We find out he is an international fugitive. We find out that he is illegally smuggling oil, iranian oil to the Communist Chinese. We find out that hes an agent of the Communist Chinese government. We find out that this testimony that was supposed to be devastating for joe biden and hunter biden, was a smoking gun, we find out it was just the opposite. Theyre lying on fox news. Fox news hosts, i guess, are lying to their people that are watching this. Again, after getting socked for close to 1 billion for lying about stolen elections. Its always about something else. This time, its about trying to get him to show up for the debate they have. Right. So there are all these distractions. Again, we could go on and on and on. Comer comes up with a different lie every day. Remember the informant . They had the tape. They were going to hold the fbi director in contempt of congress. When they found out there was nothing on there, what do you have . You have grassley going, well, we dont care he did nothing wrong. We dont care. And they dont care. All they want to do is keep a lie going. Spread more smoke. Theres always smoke, never fire, because theyre the ones that are spewing this spoke, usually on fox news, and it all ends up being nothing. Lets remember that comer, about a month or so back, gave an interview to fox in which he acknowledged that he was seeing President Bidens poll numbers take a hit as a direct result of his investigations. Thats why they were doing this. On the devon archer testimony weve been talking about, not only did it not provide a smoking gun, it backed up the biden side of the story, but the republicans had alleged that the Biden Department of justice was trying to prevent him from testifying. Archer had been sentenced to a year in prison on an unrelated matter. Archer lawyer says, actually, it has nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with the testimony whatsoever. Its a firehose of falsehoods, as we say a lot. It is a Smoke Machine and an effort to distract. It is trying to bring biden down to the level trump is. Hey, everyone is corrupt, therefore, it doesnt matter. You can cast your ballot for our guy. Look, this hasnt its not simply true. Its simply not. Look, Hunter Bidens plea deal collapsed. The judge raised some concerns. Legal experts said, hey, maybe legitimate concerns about the breadth of the hunter plea deal. Well follow that in the weeks ahead and see if there are any other legal matters that hunter biden has to contend with. Right now, this is all about politics for the Republican Party. Lets be honest, its been propped up by the conservative media, one cable network, in particular, who is treating it as an equal matter as to what were seeing with donald trump. An equal matter, they want you to believe, to this. Yesterday in washington, donald trump was arraigned for the third time in four months, this time for his alleged efforts to subvert American Democracy. He pleaded not guilty to four Felony Charges stemming from his actions after the election. The charges were conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. No cameras were allowed in the courtroom yesterday, where only about 100 people were present. The former president himself spoke only a few times, mostly to acknowledge he was aware hoff of his rights. The arraignment was typical. Before trump agreed to the release, the judge gave him an unusual warning. She reminded trump it is a crime to try to influence a juror, to threaten or bribe a witness, or retaliate against someone providing information to prosecutors. When he asked if he understand the terms, which could result in his bond being revoked, the former president said simply, yes. Reporter for the hill, zach schoenfeld. He was in the courtroom for yesterdays arraignment. Tell us what you saw yesterday. In many respects, yesterdays proceeding was ordinary and was the same steps that any other defendant who comes through the federal court system here in the Nations Capital would go there. He was read his rights, asked to respond to a series of yes or no questions from the judge. He entered his plea of not guilty. Everything except the script was anything except normal. Whether it be the security agents, more than a dozen in the room, standing both behind him as well as all over the courtroom, as well as a few protesters, not too many, but a few protesters outside the courthouse, and a swarm of media, of course, both inside and outside. The atmosphere was anything but normal, but the basic steps that trump had to follow yesterday, coming into the courthouse and going through the arraignment, was, at the end of the day, the same steps that any other defendant would go through in front of a Magistrate Judge. Zach, the one thing that some Court Watchers observe as slightly different is the directions that the judge gave to donald trump, especially about influencing potential witnesses, jurors. Then he went outside and talked. Its curious to see if the former president will be able to stick to that, and perhaps why that judge decided to say that. Yeah, as we know, many of the potential witnesses in not only this January 6th Case but also the two other criminal indictments that the former president is already facing, many of the potential witnesses in these matters are people still in his orbit and he still speaks to. The judge gave him a very stern warning yesterday, telling him he cannot speak with witnesses in the case except if he is in the presence of his attorneys. Something that the judge really did give him a serious warning and had the former president respond to in court, saying a firm yes, he would comply with those conditions. So with that, the judge did release him. He was not held. The government did not request that. His next Court Appearance is set for august 28th. The judge did say that the former president would not necessarily have to attend, so it doesnt look like necessarily hell be back in d. C. At the end of the month. But his lawyers certainly will be. Also at that august 28th court hearing, we are expecting to see potentially a trial date be set. Wow. Courts and legal reporter for the hill, zach schoenfeld, thank you very much for being on, zach. Lets bring in msnbc legal contributor katie phang, the District Attorney for new york, mimi roca, and author and political analyst, anan ds sp giridharadas, The Persuaders Shpersuaders is his new book. Mimi, as a prosecutor in new york state, what was your takeaway from yesterday . Just as everyone has been saying, joe, in some ways, very routine. Arraignment, you know, this is what every defendant who is charged with a crime goes through. That in and of itself is remarkable, considering who the charged defendant is here. That we are having a Court Process that happens with thousands of people across our country in state and federal courts, it is remarkable. Our Justice System, the wheels are turning, and that is so important. I do think it is remarkable that the judge decided to give mr. Trump this warning at this stage. I have heard that warning from judges many times in you know, i was a Mob Prosecutor for many years, and that is where i heard that warning the most. Not only in those cases, also in cases where there has been some indication of attempts at witness tampering. I have never heard a warning about not tampering with a jury this early in the process. We dont have a jury yet. So i do think that also is quite remarkable. But, again, the place ive heard this kind of warning the most is in the mob cases that i prosecuted for 8 1 2 years. Anand, this morning, neil katyal wrote a persuasive argument in the New York Times about the need for cameras in the courtroom. He quoted justice brandeis, who said,sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants. Do you agree, cameras should be in the courtroom . Also, id love to get your view from 30,000 feet on what you saw yesterday. Yeah, i mean, 247 summers ago, this country started with the phrase, all men are created equal. Weve done better and worse jobs of living up to that at different moments in our history and on different issues. I think to see a former president of the United States arraigned, like anyone else, as others were pointing out, is a good moment. One of those moments where we are living up to that notion that people are equal at birth and equal even if they have reached a lot of money and power. I think when it comes to cameras, its incredibly important for the public to see as much of this as possible, unfiltered. Because we have this problem of lies and disinformation that you were talking about at the bottom of the last hour. And the more things are mediated, the more they are coming from, you know, not the direct thing, but you and i talking about the thing, then people who either are our super fans or think we are demons, which is basically the country is entirely sorted into, do you fully trust certain people or do you think theyre demons, the more things are mediated, the less trust there is. People just are going to trust the real thing. Its not going to erode his support among the hardest of the hard core, but we have seen, even between 2016 and 2020, there are sensible people who are susceptible to reality, and i think showing what he did, showing, as we did in the documents case with all those, you know, gruesome photos of documents in the toilet, is very, very powerful, can be powerful. Katie, Donald Trumps supporters in congress and in the media have been trying on different defenses here over the last couple of days, since this indictment dropped. His attorney now appears to have confirmed one of the allegations in the special counsels indictment. Trump is accused of asking his Vice President , mike pence, to stop the election certification process, even allegedly telling pence he is, quote, too honest, when pence rejected the idea. John lauro, trumps attorney, provided more insight on the allegations and tried to get a defense hours after the former president pleaded not guilty. President trump was getting advice from an esteemed constitutional scholar as to an array of options that he could take in light of the Discr Discrepancies and what was going on in 2020. Those discrepancies were wellknown, and they were being litigated. Professor eastman laid out a series of options that were discussed with Vice President pence. Vice president pence disagreed on certain issues, but ultimately what President Trump said was, lets go with option d. Lets just halt. Lets just pause the voting and allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. Thats constitutional law. Thats not an issue of criminal activity. Katie, help us out here. Is that not john Lauro Confessing to part of the crime alleged in the indictment . It is certainly a confession that john lauro is making on behalf of his client, donald trump. But, willie, im looking for the esteemed constitutional scholar because i dont know one. There is an allegation in the indictment keep in mind, allegations are what they are, but i suspect jack smith has the goods here. Eastman admits his legal theories are not legal, and that is clearly the problem for donald trump. John lauro, what he is doing is, he is basically having Test Balloons go up so he can taint the jury pool, so he can put out ideas like, well, i was relying upon the advice of my lawyers, these constitutional scholars that were telling me it was okay to violate established federal law in order to advance my scheme to defraud. There is another theory thats been advanced, as well, you cant attack the First Amendment right of the former president of the United States. The First Amendment isnt under attack here. It is critical as members of the media when were talking about the case, especially as analysts, that we clarify for the American Public that these are not viable legal defenses. In addition, this case isnt about those legal defenses. This case is clearly about somebody who knew, and though it is not a requirement to say or prove if youre the prosecutor, that he knew he lost, but lets be clear, the evidence is lesion here, that he, as in donald trump, knew that he had lost. But trump knew he lost, and he wanted to advance a scheme to defraud so he could steal valid votes from the American Public. That is exactly what this case is about. Those are such great points. Really good. All of them such great points. Jonathan lemire, its like robbing a bank and then trying to bring the First Amendment into it. As jack smith says up top, First Amendment has nothing to do with this. Also, you had trumps lawyer, again, doing his best to defend his client, talking about, you know, he just wanted to halt. It was a pause. Lets send it back to the states and have them just check one more time. They had already checked time and time and time again. In maricopa county, how many times, three, four, five times. They sent the cyber punks, who end up giving biden more votes. Michigan, one recount after another recount after another recount. The speaker of the house said, i wanted trump to win. He was a great president. The votes werent there. Georgia, how many recounts were there in georgia . That holds no water. Were probably not going to hear that the next week or two because, again, he tried the First Amendment on day one. That doesnt really work. Doesnt work because jack smith punctured that balloon even before he went out and said it. Then we have the, oh, well, he just wants to pause it. Hes figuring out this morning, that was an admission against interest for his client. Probably wont trot that one out. Ive got to say, the esteemed john eastman . As katie pointed out, as you know very well, you wrote the book on this, as you know very well, donald trump is saying, hey, lets go with what eastman is saying. Mike pence turns to him and says, has anybody ever agreed with this before . This theory, has anybody in 240 years ever said this was the law . Eastman said no, never before. Then pence turns to trump and says, see, your own attorney is saying this is b. S. Thats all they got. Jonathan, thats all they got. You know why . Because they got nothing except stirring up you know what so rightwing, protrump outlets can twist the minds of viewers to try to chase them away from the truth. Yeah, they have two options here. That, stirring up you know what, or, two, delay, delay, delay. Mimi, thats where i want to go with you. Its all about timeline right now. It seems that what special Counsel Smith is doing, hes trying to keep this as narrow as he can. We talked about eastman, Rudy Giuliani earlier. Theyre coconspirators, but theyre not involved in this. Theyre not part of this. They havent been charged. There isnt anything about the actual insurrection on january 6th, the violence that day. No, its just about this, a pretty lean case, clearly designed for speed. So using your experience there as a prosecutor, talk to us about what you see as this timeline. We know that the prosecution is supposed to come back next week with some proposals about timing, and then the two sides are going to meet at the end of the month to set a trial schedule. What do you think is going to happen . So im not going to give a predicted trial date. That would be foolish on my part because, in any case, in any federal indictment, theres so many unknowns. I think it is absolutely correct that the 70day, you know, speedy trial clock is not a realistic day. It isnt in any federal case. I think people understand that, but i just want to say that out loud. Because while the statute and the rules talk about 70 days, cases never go to trial in 70 days. But i think, as you pointed out, you know, jack smith built this indictment for speed. They will do everything they can, clearly, to have this go forward expeditiously. You know, not for an unfair reason, but for a very good reason, which is that the whole speedy trial statute is built on the right to a speedy trial. Here, the public has an interest in more than any single case. We want to see how this plays out, how the defenses play out, how the facts play out before the election, for good reason. I think jack smith has that top of mind. I think the judge will obviously have to be and should be fair to a charged defendant here, to mr. Trump. You know, you dont want, as a judge, to rush thins along in a way that, if there is a conviction, there is argument on appeal about how the process was unfair and he didnt have an effective assistance of counsel. Were not close to that. That is a very, very high standard, but a judge needs to keep that in mind and keep it fair. I think they will move things along. I think there is a way to do that. Defendants make motions all the time, frankly, to try and, you know, stall. Thats not unusual. Judges are used to that, and they know how to see through, okay, this is a real reason for some postponement. This is a real motion we need to litigate, or this isnt. I think this judge will be very good at seeing through that and, you know, sort of separating the wheat from the chafe. Katie phang, do you agree with that . What will you be watching moving forward, especially leading up to the 28th . Im curious, because trump can im not being facetious or silly he cant keep his mouth shut. Hes already been posting and made comments. There isnt a jury yet. In a way, any comments he makes is speaking to potential jurors out there. What are some soft stumbling blocks he might put in front of a judge that doesnt want him running his mouth . Couple thoughts, mika. One, this particular Federal District court judge, tanya chutkan, who has this existing federal indictment the fact, mika, we have to clarify which one were talking about is absurd in and of itself. This instant indictment were talking about, she is on record previously stating, when she had to decide an Executive Privilege Issue with the january 6th select committee, she said, president s are not kings, and the plaintiff, which was donald trump, hes not the president. Shes made it very clear that she wants to make sure that there is nothing that goes awry in this case. The fact that the Magistrate Judge, as weve noted repeatedly, admonished and warned donald trump that he cannot have improper contact with witnesses mirrors, if you guys will recall, a similar bond condition that was imposed in trumps maralago case. In that case, trump and the other codefendants are not allowed to have contact with any witnesses and talk about communications, about the facts of the case, unless it is through counsel. Theyre trying to make sure each of these defendants stays in a particular lane, but in regards to timing, because once you kind of give enough rope to donald trump, hell hang himself in that regard in terms of things he says to incriminate himself. The tough thing i want people to understand is, i wrote a piece that was not really popularly received because its definitely not something people want to hear, but the judicial process, it takes time. A criminal defendant like donald trump, he is going to play out the Litigation Clock in this case to the best of his ability. He has a trial coming up. Letitia james 250 million civil Fraud Lawsuit in october. Two in january. A Pyramid Scheme Lawsuit Trial In The End of january. E. Jean carrolls original Defamation Lawsuit in january. He has another in march and the maralago trial in may. There is a tight window between now and november of next year to get this particular case to trial. I agree with mimi, special counsel jack smith built this indictment for speed, but speed can be derailed by multiple witnesses like mike pence, other coconspirators. There could be a challenge in getting donald trump to trial quick. I all taking place during a president ial election, in an attempt by donald trump to return to the white house. Youve written and thought about and talked to us so much about authoritarianism over the last several years, but there is the theory out there that he wants to push this along as far as he can. All the trials, especially this one, get it after the election, hope he wins, then make it all go away. Thinking about all this legal trouble in that context for this man, whats your view of that . Look, i mean, i think hot vax summer of 2021 has given way to hot indictment summer of 2023. If youve been clamoring for the rule of law in this country, it feels like a great moment. I would say, note of caution. Thinking about what katie was saying and others, i think were at risk of confusing prosecutors doing their job properly with us doing our job as citizens. And this movement, frankly this leader cult around donald trump, this cult of our fellow citizens who enable his lawbreaking by wanting him to continue in power, is something that cant be defeated in a courtroom. It is something that outorganized and defeated at the ballot box. If our energy goes into passively watching for cases to advance, cases that will be postpone and had postponed, as katie was saying, i think were missing something. I have this terrific interview with Ruth Benghiat this morning, an incredible scholar of authoritarianism. That is our focus in covering 2024, through the lens of authoritarianism, and also this lens of, what can you do . Waiting for prosecutors and waiting for trial dates is not something actually you can do. But outorganizing this movement, running for a local board, running for these local education boards, the way folks on the far right are doing is something you can do. I think its going to be really, really important to remain focused on outorganizing Donald Trumps incredibly organized, loyal and energetic movement. A movement now of deception and delusion, but a movement. There is a reason no one else in the primary is coming close. He has a movement, and they have social media accounts. We are going to need, those of us who dont believe in authoritarianism in america, to build a bigger, better movement. That should be the focus. Fair enough. Anand, thank you very much. Westchester county d. A. Mimi roca, thank you. Katie phang, thank you, as well. Katie phang show saturdays and sundays at 8 00 a. M. Eastern here on msnbc. Still ahead on morning joe, House Speaker Kevin Mccarthy is asked about Donald Trumps arraignment. Instead, turns the conversation to Hillary Clinton. Well show you his new, false comparison between the 2020 and the 2016 elections and speak with Doris Kearns Goodwin for some muchneeded historical perspective. Plus, heres a live look at Stock Futures ahead of the July Jobs Report. Well bring you those numbers and what they mean for the u. S. Economy. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. You like that bone . I got a great price on it. Did you see my tail when that chewy box showed up . 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I can say the same thing that Hillary Clinton says about her election that she lost. I can say the same thing about the dnc who said it about the 2016 race. I can say the same thing about those in the democratic party, from the leadership on down, about george bush not winning, that al gore did. But were any of them prosecuted . Were any of them put in jail . Were any of them held with no response to be able to get out . The answer is no. So, yeah, you can raise that, that someone raised a question. In america, youre entitled to raise a question. Youre entitled to question whether it was honest or not. Thats the uniqueness of the First Amendment. Thats the uniqueness of america. You know what . You shouldnt be prosecuted for your thoughts. The difference here is, when Hillary Clinton said it, Nothing Happened to her. When they said it in georgias election, Nothing Happened to them either. You know what . When the dnc said it, Nothing Happened to them either. Stop using government to go after people who politicly go after you. That is wrong, and that should stop now. God. I mean, seriously, the bad acting, first of all. I mean, its shocking that there are people that are really stupid enough to believe any of that. Heres the thing, Hillary Clinton never, never, never challenged the results of the 2016 election. In fact, she gave the Concession Speech the next morning, saying she hoped the next morning, the next morning, she hoped trump would be a successful president for all americans. In fact, the failure to secure a peaceful transition of power has happened twice in American History. The first in 1860 when the election of Abraham Lincoln freaked out southern states, and they seceded and formed the confederacy. The second in 2020 with donald trump. Only two times, kevin, it happened. Take a look one of the great features of america is that we have political contests, that they are very hard fought, as this one is hard fought, and once the decision is made, we unite behind the man who is elected. This is a fraud on the American Public. This is an embarrassment to our country. I have no bitterness, no rank or toil. I say to the president as a fellow politician that he did a wonderful job. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win this election. I have lost. Mr. Nixon has won. The Democratic Process has worked its will, so now lets get on with the urgent task of uniting our country. This is a very big moment. This is a major fraud in our nation. We want the law to be used in a proper manner. Congratulations on your victory. I hope that in the next four years, you will lead us to a time of peace abroad and justice at home. You have my full support in such efforts. Well be going to the u. S. Supreme court. We want all voting to stop. We dont want them to find any ballots at 4 00 in the morning and add them to the list. The president asked me to tell you that he telephoned President Elect Carter a short time ago and congratulated him on his victory. Its a very sad moment. To me, this is a very sad moment. And we will win this. As far as im concerned, we already have won it. The people of the United States have made their choice, and, of course, i accept that decision. If you count the legal votes, i easily win. He has won. We are all americans. He is our president , and we honor him tonight. If you count the illegal votes, they can try to steal the election from us. He will be our president , and well work with him. This nation faces major challenges ahead, and we must work together. As everybody saw, we won by historic numbers. There is important work to be done, and america must always come first so we will get behind this new president and wish him well. Democratic officials never believed they could win this election, honestly. Thats why they did the mailin ballots with this tremendous corruption and fraud. I have said repeatedly in this campaign, that the president is my opponent, not my enemy, and i wish him well. I pledge my support. Ive had two elections. I won both of them. Its amazing. And and i actually did much better on the second one. This is america. Just as we fight hard when the stakes are high, we close ranks and come together when the contest is done. That was a rigged election. Were still fighting it, and youll see whats going to happen. In an american election, there are no losers. Because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning, we all wake up as americans. We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesnt happen. You dont concede when theres theft involved. Whatever our differences, we are fellow americans, and please believe me when i say, no association has ever meant more to me than that. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. I so wish that i had been able to fulfill your hopes to lead the country in a different direction, but the nation chose another leader. So ann and i join with you to earnestly pray for them and for this great nation. When you catch somebody in a fraud, youre allowed to go by very different rules. So i hope mike has the courage to do what he has to do. Donald trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead. Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power, and we dont just respect that, we cherish it. And we fight, we fight like hell, and if you dont fight like hell, youre not going to have a country anymore. You know, were reminded of what a dark chapter of American History donald trump is taking us through still, and were reminded of that because we see such extraordinary grace. Goodness. Goodness, decency. Love of country. Patriotism, love of country from all those other candidates. Lets bring in right now Pulitzer Prize winning author and president ial historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. But that was free speech on Donald Trumps part. Early on it was, but not as he was whipping people into a frenzy on the. Telling them to riot. Doris, you and i have had the honor of knowing a lot of people that we saw there, and i just want to underline one point. You know, for people that might go, oh, that was then, and they were all the good old boys club. No, no, no. I look at goldwater, who couldnt have disagreed more with lbj than he did, being graceful. Mcgovern could not have been more horriied at the prospects of four more years of vietnam and nixon. Hubert humphrey, who could not have been more horrified that Richard Nixon was winning in 68. Gerald ford, brokenhearted, voice stripped raw, all of these races, most of the races so close. Bob dole, i was flying with him during the campaign, and he just kept whispering what he said through the entire campaign, i cant believe this guy is beating me. This world war ii veteran against somebody that he thought was a draft dodger. He never said it, but he couldnt believe it. George h. W. Bush thinking the same thing, wait, they rejected . I cant believe it. The most extreme examples, Richard Nixon, who conceded a race when a lot of people around him in 1960 were saying, they stole illinois from you. He said it didnt matter. Then al gore in one of the few good moments of his 2000 campaign, where we saw into the heart of al gore, was for him, tragically, his Concession Speech, but a Concession Speech, one of the most patriotic Concession Speeches. When al gore knew that five republican appointees to the nominees to the Supreme Court voted against him and four democratic appointee seappointe him, still went out and gave a Concession Speech that brought the country together. My god, my god, the contrast with this man, this thrice indicted man, could not be greater, could it, doris . You know, joe, i think you should show, everybody should show again what you just showed, that conjunction of whats happened in every other time in our history, except 1860, and what happened now. I mean, it just shows you, right, the grace of those people. Imagine how hard it is for them. Theyve lost an election. I just looked at all these Concession Speeches the other day, maybe a nerdy thing to do, but it made me emotional to realize what youre saying. They come out there, know theyve disappointed their followers, they feel really sad, yet they know the peaceful transition of power is a bedrock for our country. The reason why i think showing those who things together as you did this morning, people may think this is words, the peaceful transition of power. In a democracy, the simplest term of a democracy is you can vote your leaders in or throw them out. If theyre thrown out, they have to have the grace and humility to except that. Only in 1860, and lincoln said that our democracy will not exist. Thats why the civil war partly had to be fought. If you can decide youre the minority in the south, youre the democratic party, you lost the election, you decide, okay, im not going to except the loss, im going to succeed from the union, he said, if we cant prove that cant happen, democracy will be an absurdity. Go over the Concession Speeches again. My husband helped al gore on the speech, but the way he delivered it was a conversational style, such emotion. He was able to say, i dont agree with the decision, but the Supreme Court has spoken. It is the law of the land. Then he talked about whats over harvard law school, not under man, but under god and under the law. The rule of law is at issue right now. I think if we could just play those over and over again to though the American People, this has been our tradition. The Concession Speeches started in 1896. The first one on the radio was al smith conceing to this hoover. Stevenson gave the first one on television, and he went back to a lincoln thing. It was a family tree to have people knowing how important it was. Only one man, donald trump, has not done that. The end of al gores speech, he reprieves something. At the Democratic Convention for clinton and gore, they have this rant at the end, a chant. Its time for them to go its time for them to go finally, at the end of al gores speech, he brought it up again, its time for me to go. He said it peacefully, and he wished that god would stewartship bushs election. Where are these people now, its time for him to go . It should be mandatory viewing, to sit and watch that clip. Joe mentioned bush 41, how devastaing the loss was for a man who was so proud he was going to be a oneterm president , he couldnt believe hed lost to bill clinton. Yet, famously, the note he left in the oval office for bill clinton on january 20th, 1993, on the day of president clintons inauguration, he gets into the oval office and finds a note, an incredibly gracious note. Part of it is, you will be our president when you read this note. I wish you well. I wish your family well. Your success now is our countrys success. I am rooting hard for you. Good luck. Signed, who were supposed to be, and how this is supposed to go, and that donald trump does represent a deviation from history, but doris, we have to confront the fact that still all these years on now, theres a large segment of the population that are saying we want that, and we want it again. Thats the reason why the real battle to be fought here, and you were talking about this earlier, is public sentiment. Those law cases will be critical, but beyond those law cases, the country has to be persuaded that what has been done by President Trump, former President Trump is wrong. One of the things lincoln said is even more important than laws of congress, even more important than judicial decisions is public sentiment, and as long as public sentiment is educated as it was with the 1850s and 1860s, is movement. The Antislavery Movement was able to make sort of a majority view in the north that this was wrong. It was against the ideals of the country and thats what allowed that to happen. It has to happen now. Its very important that i think thats why this is so important that the trial be publicized, that it be essentially on television. Its the most important thing thats going to happen to us. How are we going to feel about somebody whos violated the ideals of the country who is wrong . One of the things to go back to george bush sr. , theres a story he tells after having scored three goals in soccer. He says, i scored three goals and his mother said, yes, but how did the team do . Thats the important thing. You need people in that office who run for office who feel something is more important than their victory. Its the country. Its the team, and if you cant accept that, then the democracy doesnt work, and thats what has to be written home to the American People. They have to see how far this goes from the grace and dignity from other people that have run our other. Lost and took it. They have their parties with them, other leaders, whether its democrat or republican alike saying, the election is over and its time to move on. We have gone through the example about nixon and watergate, but sometimes these bitterly contested fights, still the party said, okay. Its time to turn the page. Even in 2016 by the next morning, the democrats were doing so, but are you seeing anything here that would suggest that there were other republicans, real ones that matter, not just the occasional lonely voice to push donald trump to move past this in the next election . Its still so hard to accept that. I thought after january 6th when you saw mcconnell speak, when you saw mccarthy speak that that would be the beginning of leadership turning against him, and then somehow, somehow its not happened, and it cant just be a few of them. We have to figure out when is it going to happen . When is it going to break . Maybe the more this thing becomes clear, what was done, you have to believe that rational thought would come back in the minds of these people. If its not, its going to take the overwhelming organization. Organizing the country at all the levels. If the party will not depart from him, he has to the party has to be defeated. The one Concession Speech we havent looked at, doris, is Hillary Clintons, and im just curious if you could talk about that especially given what we heard Kevin Mccarthy say in the setup, basically lying about her behavior, about the peaceful transition of power versus what she said that day. On the contrary, she comes out that next day. She talks about the disappoint i want she knows what people have felt. She talks about what it was like to be a woman running for the election and talks about the peaceful transition of power and as was said in that clip with real emotion in her voice, its not just that its part of our system, not just a rule of law. Were not just respecting it. We cherish it. We cherish it and thereby i wish him well. I hope we can have an open mind for him. That was a hard thing to do, and she knew what she had to do, and she did just the opposite of what he was saying. Just like al gore. He talks about how hard this is too. He doesnt like the Supreme Court decision, but its the rule of the land, and they both deserve pantheons, and those are great accept Concession Speeches. Mccain, what an extraordinary one he gave. He said he accepted what had happened, and he said that obama had inspired the nation and he felt it was a wonderful moment in our history that the first black american had been elected. Wow. I mean, thats thats what you want. Thats character. Yeah. , in fact, you learn about the character of the person who loses more by their losing than by their winning, and those people you saw this morning on that clip, they show character. They were americans. Im so glad you brought up john mccain because for those of us who knew senator mccain, honored enough to know senator mccain, you know, for anybody who thinks that its weak to concede an election, a democratic election that you lost, lets show lets show that clip while we show doris. Lets just show john mccain. John mccain, one of the toughest guys i ever met in congress. When he came at you, he came at you hard. Knock your head off, and then hed sit down with you later, and hed say, okay. Lets figure this out. He was a standup man, a tough man, and the men were looking at right there, all these all these phony all these phony shows of masculinity and machoism, all these phony trump snowflakes who claim to be real men, were looking at a real man here who was imprisoned, who was beaten, beaten so badly he could never raise his arms over his head again and doris, you know the story like so many of us know the story about john mccain. They offered they offered to let him out of his living hell, and he refused. He wasnt going to get special treatment. He would continue to be beaten into inches of death and stay in vietnam in the hanoi hilton being tortured because he wasnt going to get special treatment over his band of brothers who were there with him. He came back. He got into politics. He served this country so proudly, and when he lost ill say it. He did what real men do when they lost. He tipped his hat, acknowledged reality, and moved on. So well said, joe. I mean, just think about we should have learned about the character of the candidate, trump, when he said that john mccain was not a hero. I mean, right at that moment, president s set examples for our people. Thats one of the things thats so concerning to me about whats happening right now with President Trump, unwilling to accept the loss of that election. Teddy roosevelt said the most important thing a president does is to set an example for children. What are we setting an example for . Our coaches, teachers, parents, to teach a kid how to lose gracefully, win with humility, and lose with grace. This is the opposite being set. Mccain was an extraordinary example, and when i looked at that acceptance speech, i felt tears coming to my eyes, and what a great thing he did that night. You teach our children. It was written, donald trump was a reverse image of the boy scout law. Trustworthy, friendly, loyal. Trump is mendacious, selfish, evil, grandiose, and all the rest. He always has been and always will be. For almost half a century, the American Culture has been attacked or maybe its infected by donald trump, a parasite with fangs sunk into a natural artery of sensationalism. Harsh words. But true. We compare donald trump with his bone spurs with john mccain with his heroism, and leave it right there. President ial historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. Thank you for coming on this morning. Thank you so much, doris. Coming up, new polling out of iowa where donald trump leads his republican challenger, but his hold seems less domestic nant. Well show you the new numbers. Our third hour starts right now. Ultimately what President Trump said was, lets go with option d. Lets halt and pause the voting and allow the legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to the as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. Thats constitutional law. Thats not an issue of criminal activity. Its actually an admission. You can Say Something is not criminal, but that doesnt make it crew. Thats Donald Trumps attorney in the 2020 election case seeming to admit that the former president did exactly what he is accused of doing. All he wanted to do is impede, like, the counting of electoral votes. Voting rights. All he wanted to do was impede a process thats well, its stated there in the constitution. Thats all he wanted. Oh, all he wanted to do was rob a bank. Take all the money. I mean, this is exactly what hes charged for, and he admitted. Yeah. You know, watching him and political defenders like Lindsey Graham attempt to defend donald trump over the last couple of days, its clear they dont have a lot to work with. This is a real attorney unlike some of the other attorneys trump has had around him. He was a prosecutor, and he cant seem to come up with a cogent theory of the case that donald trump was acting legally in the days leading up to january 6th because thats overwhelming and theyre Hopscotching Around trying to find something, but nothings hitting yet. Theyre not going to fight anything legally, because theyre boxed in legally. Theyre going to lose legally, so theyre trying to create something for chinese religious cults that Run Conspiracy websites that maybe will catch hold on fox news and other networks where they can create an alternative set of facts. So of course, none of this none of this has anything to do with defending donald trump legally right. He started out talking about the First Amendment. Okay. Thats fine. Its something that you would do if you were in a political debate, but legally he knows that holds no water because, again, at the top of the indictment what we have, we have jack smith saying, hey. Anybodys free to say what they want to say about the election, even if they want to lie that it was rigged. Thats his First Amendment right. Thats taken away in the first couple of paragraphs. So they started by talking about the First Amendment. That doesnt hold water. Its such a stupid argument if you actually read this indictment which a lot of people on fox news dont. They doodle on it. They dont. You know why . Shameful, shameful. It makes me sad. Its the Editorial Page i have been reading all my life. They go full you Never Go Full Trump if you are on the wall street Editorial Page. They never went full trump. They blame it on the democrats, and they will, youre not going to believe this. They say joe bidens old. They say joe bidens old. You have all this going on, and then you have Lindsey Graham whos a lawyer, saying, i dont trust juries now. So here you have people who said, we dont trust American Democracy after donald trump loses, and now fox, some of these people on fox news, Lindsey Graham, some republicans are now saying we dont trust the jury system. We dont trust American Democracy because trump lost, and we dont trust the jury system because donald trump stole Nuclear Secrets and hes being held to account for it, and donald trump tried to steal an election that they all know he tried to steal. Lindsey graham said, im off this train. Then the three people in the hound dog chased him around Washington National reagan airport and he said, im back on the train. Its so bizarre, man. Its so bizarre. Theyre willing to trash every American Institution for a guy thats never been loyal to them. Lindsey graham said yesterday that donald trump cant get a fair trial in washington because of the jury pool in washington. Remember, in the e. Jean carroll case, the Defamation Case when that was decided, marco rubio said the jury system is a joke. Another lawyer saying the jury system in the United States is a joke. This is the way it works. Youre tried in the place where youre alleged to have committed a crime as e. Jean carrolls attorney pointed out to us later on morning joe. They were not from chelsea and tribeca. Some were from manhattan, but some were from other places around new york. Its how the jury system works, but youre hearing fear if they dont rally to Donald Trumps defense, even on this, even after reading this time, theyll lose. Theyll lose their voters and might lose their own power. After reading this, mika, after reading people who work for donald trump page after page after page of this, people that donald trump brought in through his inner circle. People that donald trump selected for Cabinet Members, as his white house council, all saying the same thing that donald trump tried to steal the election. Even after that, what is worth it for these people . What is it worth for the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page . What is it worth for Lindsey Graham to try to excuse an attempted coup . Whats it worth . I just i must say sometimes, mika, you get frustrated because politically im too pragmatic. Right. I bend over backwards too hard to understand too many peoples views. You do. It frustrates you. I have to say in this case, theres no getting this. I have been a member of congress. Its not worth this. Its not worth betraying your country. Its not worth Turning A Blind Eye to a coup. Its not worth going to the best schools in america, getting one of the best editorial jobs in america, reading this and knowing better, and trying to blame Donald Trumps attempted coup attempt on democrats that want to use this in election on the Biden Crime Family . On joe biden being old . Come on, man. Youre better than that. I know because i know you, because i have been reading your work my whole life, because i served with come of you in congress through difficult times. Youre better than this. Dont listen to me. Dont listen to the Washington Post or the New York Times or msnbc or cnn. Dont listen to podcast just listen to the people who worked very donald trump. The people that donald trump selected himself. The defendants Vice President who personally stood to remain in office and gain by the defendants ticket, who the defendant wanted him to rig the election. Mike pence refused to Senior Leaders of the Justice Department who stood to gain they wouldnt have been acting Attorney Generals in the first term or the second term. They would have been the attorney general. They would have run the Justice Department if only they had gone along with Donald Trumps lie. Senior white house attorneys, the people who defended him when he used his office. When he used his office to ignore congress authorization of weapons to ukraine, he said, no. No to zelenskyy. You need to give me dirt on my political opponent or im not sending you the weapons. They defended him through that, but here, every senior white house attorney told him he was wrong, that he could not overturn the election, and he needed to leave. Senior staffers on his reelection campaign. I mean, come on. This isnt a liberal conspiracy, and you can read your chinese religious cult websites all you want, but you know theyre lying to you. You know Kevin Mccarthys lying to you. You know theyre all running scared, but scared from what . What are they running from . Thats more frightening than an attempted coup against the United States government . Where cops were brutalized. Four eventually died. American democracy smeared globally because of one former Reality Tv Host. Wanting to maintain power and remain an authoritarian leader here in the United States. Whats worth that . I would say nothing. Absolutely nothing, and yet they continue to march america toward the cliff. Yesterday in washington, d. C. For the first time ever, a former president of the United States was arraigned for his alleged efforts to subvert American Democracy. Just a few blocks away from where he took the Oath Of Office and from where his supporters carried out an unprecedented Act Of Violence just a few years later, donald trump pleaded not guilty to four Felony Charges stemming from his actions after the 2020 election. The charges, conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. No cameras were allowed in the courtroom yesterday where only around 100 people were present. Trump in a blue suit and red tie was seated about 10 feet away from the man leading the prosecution against him, special counsel jack smith. When the former president s lawyers introduced themselves to the Magistrate Judge, they referred to their client as President Trump. The judge then referred back to him as mr. Trump. A reminder that everyone is equal in the court of law. The former president himself spoke only a few times mostly to acknowledge he was aware of his rights. He was asked to state his name and age to which he responded, donald j. Trump, john, and 77. Most of the arraignment typical in nature, but before the conditions of his release, the judge did give him an unusual warning. She reminded trump that it is a crime to try to influence a juror, to threaten or bribe a witness, or to retaliate against someone providing information to prosecutor. When asked if he understood that doing that would result in his bond being revoked, the former president said, simply, yes. Were joined by jonathan lemere, joyce vance, justice and intelligence Court Correspondent ken delanian, and charlie sikes. Sykes. Good morning to you all. You were at the courthouse at a room inside the courtroom, but joined an overflow room. Tell us more about what went on inside the courtroom and the relationship 20 feet or so apart between jack smith and donald trump in that room. Good morning, willie. Yeah, that was my one advantage from watching on video in the media overflow room, is that i could see jack smiths fact. The reporters in the courtroom were behind him, and i watched jack smith who was sitting behind his Prosecution Team in the first row as donald trump entered the courtroom where every other voice turned to point toward the former president , of course, but jack smith did not. He stared straight ahead. He made a point of not looking at donald trump as he moved his way toward the Defense Table and sat down with his lawyers. I thought that was very interesting because there was a lot of observations that smith seemed to stare down trump at the arraignment in miami. He did of course, look at trump at other times during the proceeding while he was talking. Just in general, this was, i thought, a much more sober and serious and even tense atmosphere at this arraignment than the one down in miami. Down in miami, the Magistrate Judge there was pretty loose, was making jokes, and the other interesting thing is that donald trump didnt say a word at the arraignment in miami. His lawyer answered on his behalf and pled not guilty. Yesterday donald trump was essentially questioned, even grilled by the magistrate in asking him the standard questions that you would ask a defendant, you know, your name, your date of birth, and then, you know, sort of going through the list of chart, and the penalties which in some cases are 20 years or more from each count, and then giving him a series of instructions as conditions for release, and the most important one which is that she should not commit any crimes while free, and as you said, that unusual instruction that he should not bribe or intimidate a witness. I talked to lawyers afterwards who said that everything she said in terms of those instructions was standard for a defendant in washington, d. C. Except for that one. They hadnt heard that before, so that was interesting. Also interesting was that the magistrate kept folks waiting, including mr. Trump for 20 minutes. There was a period of sort of stone silence as the smith team sat at their table across from trump and his lawyers at their table. Todd blanch, one of trumps lawyers appeared to be conferring with mr. Trump, read reading what looked like the indictment and explaining it to mr. Trump. He seemed animated and inquisitive. People in the courtroom said he was looser perhaps than the last one when he was asked his name. He said, you know, donald j. Trump, then he added john. He was asked his age, and he said, 77, 77. The upshot here was this was washington, d. C. This is different from florida. Ive covered trials and criminal cases in that courtroom and other courtrooms that look exactly like it, and for me, it was bracing. It was jarring to see the former president sitting at the Defense Table in that courtroom. Next hearing scheduled for August The 28th just over three weeks from now when a trial date will be set. There will be a lot of haggling and negotiating back and forth about when that will be. Its obviously critical to see whether hell get in and complete it before the election. I would ask you about that admonition from the judge that ken just mentioned. We should underline it again. She told him it is against the law to sway jurors or speak to prosecutors. Did that strike you as unusual too . Its very unusual, willie. The only time i can remember hearing a warning like that at arraignment is when i prosecuted somebody who had firebombed the house of a witness coming very close to injuring small children as part of the activity in a very violent drug organization, and in that instance, the judge did admonish the defendant at arraignment, not only that its that you can have your bond revoked and go back into custody if you commit new crimes. That part is standard, but talked with him specifically about taking any action against witnesses against him, and so what comes to mind when you see a judge doing this with donald trump is shes a good judge. Shes being very careful. If she gets to a point down the road where theres the hearing about revoking trumps bond, she wants it on the record that she gave very specific advice, that there could be no efforts to try to influence witnesses, jurors, anyone else involved in the case. She was dotting her is and crossing her ts. So let me ask george really quickly. Im just curious, and im just curious. Donald trump hear that is from the judge. He then goes out and he, you know, he says his process is, like, this scam, this usual witch hunt scam stuff. I dont know how federal judges in alabama would respond to that where you promise, but where i practiced in Northwest Florida, i suspect judge collier or judge vincent would throw my client in jail, and call me in and dress me down and say, so you have a client i admonished in my courtroom. He walks outside and says, im conducting a witch hunt here. Im going to let him sit in jail until you can go in and i can tell you at least in Northwest Florida, the judges then look at me and say, and counsel, if you cant control your client, might better get off the case because if he says it again, im going to put you in jail. I think for people that practice in Northwest Florida, thats not that much of a stretch. I mean, so im really surprised that any defendant is allowed to say that a judge is conducting a witch hunt and that the entire judicial system is a scam. So joe, your courts in what we call lower alabama, and my courts in l. A. Theyre not pleased by this kind of behavior. I have the benefit of having started my career as lawyer in washington and practing in front of these court where is they offer more room to ramble in these sorts of political cases. I dont like the reason, but its something that exists. Donald trump whos now mr. Trump in court is still a candidate to be president of the United States, and in the course of his campaign for that office, he has certain First Amendment rights. I think what the judges will do here is they will stand well back from the line where there could be any sort of litigation over whether they violated his rights, but i think theres a line there that Trump Cannot Cross and this rhetoric that were used to him expressing about witch hunts, that might cost him some jurors. If this case goes to trial during the process, there may well be witnesses who will be influenced by his comments, and who will not be able to set aside what theyve heard come out of the former president s mouth. Exactly. He may lose some witnesses he would have liked to have had on that jury. So some of the officers who helped defend the capitol during the January 6th Insurrection were present for former President Trumps arraignment yesterday. One of them, officer harry dunn who joins us now. He is the recipient of the president ial citizens medal for his exemplary contributions to our democracy surrounding january 6th. Hes also the author of the forthcoming book entitled Standing My Ground which will be released this october. Officer dunn, your reflections after watching this unfold yesterday . Good morning, yall. Thank you for having me on. Yesterday, i didnt expect bhuch. Much. I didnt expect to find any new revelation, but it was refreshing if you will so to speak to see the president the former president treated like any other criminal who violates the law, sitting in that courtroom going through the judicial process. You know, this obviously must have stirred some real emotions in you yesterday, watching this. Just tell us a little bit about how you felt, and theres certainly no closure here yet. This trial is going to go on for months, if not longer, but in this particular moment, just tell us what it meant to you. It did invoke a few emotions, you know, physical ones too. I noticed i got an alert on my smart watch and my heart rate was up over 100 beats a minute, and it was shortly after he walked in the courtroom, just seeing him, you know, stirred up some feelings and emotions, and like you said, it isnt closure. I wish it would have happened i said he should have been arrested or investigated on january 7th. Its not closure, but its a necessary step to get that closure, you know, accountability. Hes being accountable for his actions and thats happening now, but justice looks to me justice looks like a guilty verdict. Officer dunn, good morning. Its great to have you back with us. You and some of your fellow officers i know its not easy. Its probably not something you choose to do, but you have been coming out publicly and reminding importantly reminding the country about what happened on that day because there have been so many efforts by trump and his followers to change the story and to say, no. Actually what you saw isnt what happened. We know what happened. You know what happened from the inside. So i would ask you apart from what we saw yesterday, how are you doing . How are your fellow officers doing now 2 1 2 years on since january 6th . Well hey, willie. Good to talk to you. Think about it though. One of the reasons for me speaking out is therapeutic. It helps me get my feelings, get my emotions out, but also like you said, people are trying to whitewash what happened, and trying to act like what we went through wasnt real, and as long as that happens, you know, that continues to happen, we have to speak out and push back against it, you know, silence is complicit. We have to have individuals that are willing to tell the truth about what happened and not just bystanders in democracy, like, democracy isnt a spectator sport, and we need people out there telling the truth about what happens especially while there are so many people that are saying that what happened on january 6th didnt really happen, but as far as how im doing, i dont want to speak for all of my officers or all of my coworkers, but, you know, some individuals have shared with me that this is a triggering experience and they want it to be over with. I think a lot of people do. Everybody expresses the sentiment that they want it over with. I mean, hell, i do too, but here we are. Were moving slow, but were moving, and it needs to be done. All right. Officer harry dunn, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much for your service. We greatly appreciate it. His new book Standing My Ground will be released this october. Coming up, senator Lindsey Graham was humiliated at a recent trump rally as the crowd booed him relentlessly. So why is he still supporting the thriceindicted expresident . He cant help himself. Well show you his latest latest comments on morning joe. Attacking the jury system. Coming up next. Attacking the jury system coming up next my active Psoriatic Arthritis can make me feel like im losing my rhythm. With skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, im getting into my groove. uplifting music along with significantly clearer skin. Skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. And is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. 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Hes not saying that now. Any convention in d. C. Against donald trump is not legitimate. So theyre theyre charging him with a crime of taking bad legal advice. Thats what this is about. Theyre trying to criminalize the attorneyclient relationship. Theyre trying to criticize the exercising of the First Amendment. The judge in this case hates trump. You could convict trump of kidnapping lindbergs baby in d. C. You need to have a change of venue. You need a new judge and we need to win in 2024 to stop this crazy crap. I mean, it is so disgusting. So embarrassing. Lindsey knows better. He obviously knows better, but hes slandering the judge. Hes attacking the jury system, and its very interesting, the judge whos going to be overseeing the case was unanimously confirmed by the senate in 2013 by a vote of 950. Unanimous. She was unanimously confirmed by the senate, and again, its just like the republicans used to defend the fbi. They were the ones defending the fbi against attacks from progressives. The second the fbi actually investigated donald trump, well, suddenly they hate the fbi. Suddenly they hate the military. They hate him leaders. They slander chairman of the joint chiefs. We can go on and on. Charlie sykes, you know, marco rubio slandered, you know, attacked the jury system. Now Lindsey Grahams attacking the jury we know, and they know the bedrock the bedrock of our judicial system. We the people. Thats how madison had it set up. Applebaum wrote this yesterday, if trump responds to the indictment solely by attacking courts and judges and its leaders work to work to delegitimatize the legal system, im not sure how we recover. Lets make this simple for people, charlie. Our former party from election day 2020 through January The 6th trashed American Democracy. Right. Told americans and the world you cant trust fair and free elections if our side doesnt win. Fox news paid, like, close to A Billion Dollars for the lies that they spread about the election, and theyre going to probably have to pay close to another billion dollars. We turned the page, what . Lesson is learned from that . Absolutely nothing because now theyre trashing the judicial system which i would say is, you know, its almost its madisons, like, crown jewel. Its the great leveler of madisonian democracy, but now theyre trashing that, again, for donald trump. Do you agree there . Im not sure how we recover. No. I could not agree more strongly with what applebaum is saying. What Lindsey Graham and marco rubio are saying is pathetic and its same old, same old. We need to pause. This is dangerous. What you are seeing is a fullon attack of the legitimacy of the constitutional orb. They are attacking the fbi. They are attacking the Justice Department. They are attacking the judges. They are attacking the juries. They are saying that the actions of the juries and the judges are illegitimate. What does that mean . Where do you go with that when you basically have knocked over all of the props of the rule of law . Now they may not be, you know, sitting around saying, okay. Were going to be rejecting James Madisons design here, but i mean, this is where their hackery has led them, because if, in fact youre seeing the biden regime or the fbi is the gestapo. This goes beyond demonization. You dont organize with the gestapo. You dont litigate with the gestapo. You go to war against the gestapo. So the question is, if you doubt the legitimacy of the government, what do you think that people out in the country are going to how do you think theyre going to react to all of that . This is very dangerous. Charlie, let me follow up on that too. Yesterday we get the news out of New Hampshire that i guess it was this weekend. You actually had the number two republican saying that he was going to go after the bureaucracy by, quote, slitting their throats. Slitting the throats of bureaucrats. This this is what ron desantis said. You have the most Senior Member of the Republican Party in the United States senate talking about hold on. Talking about how irs agents are going to go to his home state and with ar15s and gun down middle class businesspeople. I mean, this this has become such a Violent Party with such violent rhetoric. Lets listen to desantis really quick and ill have you respond. All these deep state people, you know, were going to start Slitting Throats on day one. Im going to be ready to go. I mean, where . Again, i was saying before, i dont understand whats Worth Trashing the rule of law. Whats Worth Trashing American Democracy. I just i cant even imagine how our party got to a point where a frontrunner, a guy in second place would say, im going after the deep state and im going to start Slitting Throats. Start Slitting Throats. On my first day in office. This is fascism, is it not . Well, look. Its not just a race to the bottom. I wrote a piece i think for msnbc a few months ago saying the brutality is the point, and there is this contest now among republicans, not just, you know, its not just the cruelty is the point. Its the brutality is the point. You listened there, and it is as if there is a contest of who can be the toughest, who can be the most savage. Are we going to put drug dealers up against the wall and shoot them the day that they are convicted, you know, and donald trump wants to put spikes on the tops of the border wall. Ron desantis comes in and says, you know, hold my beer. I will actually slit throat on my first day in office, and i think its not just its not just the i guess its the crudity and it is the appeal to this visceral sense of, we are not in a normal democratic order. We need to destroy our enemies because they are evil, and were going to use the most violent means necessary. So again, there is always the danger of being numbed by this, but this is dangerous particularly when you have tens of millions of people out there who are listening to this, and are trying to figure out how do you respond . How do you respond to the gestapo . How do you respond to an illegitimate regime . What do we think is going to happen next year if this continues . Coming up, two u. S. Navy sailors are being charged with providing Military Secrets to china. The latest on those allegations of espionage when morning joe comes right now. S of espionage when morning joe comes right now. 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We are following a development this morning out of Southern California where two navy sailors are under arrest, accused of providing Sensitive National Security Information to china. Nbc news chief Foreign Affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell has details. Reporter the Justice Department says the two navy sailors have each been arrested for selling Military Secrets to china. Sensitive Military Information ended up in the hands of the peoples republic of china. Reporter the first defendant, 22yearold jinchao wei is under espionage charges. Including documents, photos, and technical manuals. In exchange, his Intelligence Officer paid way of thousands of dollars. Reporter a machinist made in san diego, sent the chinese Intelligence Officer photos of Military Hardware and vehicles and devoted information about warfare exercises. The second person charged in a separate case, 26yearold petty officer wenheng zhao received approximately 15,000 from an Intelligence Officer including blueprints for a system at a base in okinawa, japan. Mr. Zhao chose a path of corruption. Reporter this comes amid fears about cyberbased espionage. Andrea mitchell reporting for us there. Coming up on morning joe, were now learning what was and what was not discussed between Hunter Bidens business associate devin archer and then Vice President biden. The transcript of closed door interview with the House Oversight committee was released yesterday. Well go through it and show how it contradicts what many have been saying. Were back in a moment. Have been saying. Were back in a moment my husband and i have never been more active. Shingles doesnt care. I go to spin classes with my coworkers. Good for you, shingles doesnt care. Because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. 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Back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. We dont get scared. Oh, really . Mom can see your search history. Thats what i thought. Introducing the next generation 10g network. Only from xfinity. American people. I sure hope so. That was the chair of the House Oversight committee, james comer, on monday claiming theres a lot of smoke regarding theyre blowing the smoke in and then theyre saying theres a lot of smoke. Regarding Hunter Bidens Business Dealings. Its their smoke actually. And whether joe biden was involved. They said after hours of closed Door Testimony from Hunter Bidens former business partner, devon archer, but as we learned from dan goldman, archer may have contradicted comers point, and yesterday the transcript of that closed door interview was released confirming goldmans account. It turns out archer told the House Overnight Committee that he has no knowledge of joe biden altering policy to benefit hunter. Archer also said he was present for roughly 20 instances of hunter putting speakerphone in the presence of Business Associates. Archer said none of conversations focused on business and that they talked about things like fishing and the weather. Lets bring in senior congressional reporter for nbc news scott wong,covering the released transcript. And alexi mccannon. This is really something, scott. We have the republicans going out crowing, saying, oh, weve got him. Its sort of like what we were talking about earlier in the show saying things that the transcript proved to be wrong. Go into the transcript and the socalled smoke around all of this. Good morning, guys. 141 pages of transcript were released by james comer, the gop chairman yesterday. It just so happens that it happened just hours before donald trump was arraigned in federal court, as we all witnessed. So democrats believe this was really rushed out, that this was an attempt to distract from trump being in court. Heres what we know so far. Upon reading through this transcript, devon archer testified to lawmakers that he had no knowledge that joe biden had committed any wrongdoing. He was pressed several times on that point. That was a huge takeaway. Furthermore, as you just mentioned, archer said that he had no knowledge or evidence that joe biden had changed policy based on things that his son had done. So that really has undercut this argument from republicans like james comer, like jim jordon that there was some wrongdoing or illegality on the part of joe biden. Hunter biden is an entirely different question. He, of course, very clearly was trying to trade on the biden name. Archer said that multiple times, that he was portraying this. A appearance or, quote, an illusion of influence. So that was something that was very clearly stated by archer, that hunter biden was trying to impress his employer, burisma, the Ukrainian Energy company, but that no evidence of impropriety was committed by joe biden. Alexi, as scott just mentioned, there was a sense that the republicans rushed out this transcript to deflect what was happening with donald trump, another example of them doing trumps bidding. About a week ago, Speaker Mccarthy started talking about an Impeachment Inquiry into President Biden and then seemed to tap the breaks on it. Walk us through that balancing act where mccarthy is so reluctant to defy trump, but some moderate republicans are saying, youre going to put us in a really bad situation. Its the farright folks like Marjorie Taylor greene who is conceding it would be difficult to get many of her colleagues to prove forward with an impeachment proceeding against joe biden. Youre exactly right. Im wondering if Kevin Mccarthy worries about republicans keeping the house in 2024, because so far he seems singularly focused on helping donald trump win the primary and get reelected. There are 18 republicans who hold seats in districts that joe biden won by healthy margins across the country. These extreme baseless claims that joe biden is corrupt is not going to work in districts like that. Impeachment proceedings are a drag on the American People. Weve seen that poll after poll. Republicans are having a really hard time running against themselves. They cant run against their own record, because theyre not doing much for the American People. They cant run against trump because of all the problems he has. So theyre trying to create this boogeyman in hunter biden. Theyve created this committee to explore the weaponization of government, and yet there are zero facts that they should be so willing to share every single day. They cant present the facts because they cant find them on hunter biden. If they could, they would tell us. Coming up, in michigan, new polling shows donald trump and joe biden locked at 44 apiece in a headtohead matchup for president. P for president. Subways now slicing their meats fresh. Thats why subways proffered by this champ. And this future champ. And if we proffer it, we know youll proffer it too. Hes cocky for a nineteen year old. What if your entire day glided like dove men . Its made with a plantbased moisturizer and glides on without irritation. So you can glide through your entire day with confidence. Feel the dove men glide. upbeat music constant contacts advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. constant contact. Helping the small stand tall. Psoriasis really messes with you. Try. Hope. Fail. No one should suffer like that. I started cosentyx®. Five years clear. Real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. 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I think everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but that doesnt mean thats the only advice he was given. There are numerous advisors and politicians and lawyers, not just one or two, that are giving you advice and telling you what they believe is true. He may not agree with mike pence. He may not agree with one of his lawyers but that doesnt mean there werent others telling him exactly the opposite. A lawyer for donald trump essentially admitting that the former president did exactly what hes accused of doing. Fortunately for him, shes not representing trump in the January 6th Case. But i guess decided to speak out. Again, the contrast with what weve seen in the past, so many people over the last hour have been talking about reaching out to us and talking about Concession Speeches. So many people are texting me talked about how moved they were by it. It kind of reminds me of that line in field of dreams where James Earl Jones says it reminds us of what was once good and what we can be again. That is true. Theres such a sharp contrast not just with one president. We were showing democrats, we were showing republicans, we were showing liberals, we were showing conservatives. It is something that has bound us together through the years. People who loved this country more than they loved their own political fortunes. Its only donald trump who has broken this line, the first diseased politician since Jefferson Davis in 1860. What a contrast. We see it with all the people he sends out and, unfortunately, people who write in powerful newspapers, people who talk on cable news shows and others watch and believe their misinformation. Most unfortunately, i think the politicians who lie to their constituents every day. That was a very moving compilation that our excellent producers put together. It went through history to show how a Concession Speech, how a peaceful transfer of power should go and what that looks like. We went to 2016 when Hillary Clinton, obviously devastated by the outcome, she was on the precipice of becoming a historic american president. She came out, called donald trump that night on Election Night and came out the next morning and conceded the election and said we should all be rooting for the success of donald trump, because the country is bigger than any one person. You can go back to people who said, i didnt like it, in some cases maybe thought they won, but lets move on for the betterment of the country. Thats not what donald trump did. Just over 2 1 2 years ago a violent mob carried out an unprecedented attack on the u. S. Capitol in an effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Yesterday, just steps away from that scene, donald trump pleaded not guilty to federal charged related to that effort. Joining us now, capitol hill correspondent garrett haake, who was inside the courtroom for trumps arraignment. Good morning. The whole historic hearing was only about 27 minutes from start to finish. Unlike his other arraignments, donald trump had more than usual to say. He gave his full name, he gave his age and he spoke his own not guilty plea, all of it under the watchful gaze of the special counsel jack smith, whos charged him with trying to steal the 2020 election. Donald trump pleading not guilty to four Felony Charges, stemming from what prosecutors say was a criminal scheme to overturn the 2020 election, including conspiracy to defraud the United States. Following his arraignment, the 2024 republican frontrunner claimed the charges against him are designed to damage his campaign. This is a persecution of a political opponent. This was never supposed to happen in america. For the most part, the former president was treated like any other criminal defendant. He was processed and fingerprinted but no mugshot was taken. He was released on the condition he not communicate with witnesses about the case unless attorneys are present, the judge also warning mr. Trump it would be a crime to influence the jury or to threaten or retaliate against witnesses. The judge adding, quote, if you fail to comply with the conditions of your release, a warrant may be issued for your arrest. Trump is notable for attacking witnesses, prosecutors and judges in the cases hes faced. Deranged jack smith will probably bring another case this is a fastmoving railroad without any concern for justice. Despite his dominance in the 2024 republican primary, the former president is facing at least three trials in the coming year, including in the maralago classified documents case. Aide walt nauta, his codefendant in that case, at his side yesterday in washington, with a possible fourth indictment looming in georgia this month investigating trumps attempted to overturn President Bidens 2020 victory in that state. The next hearing in this case comes on august 28th. The judge is hoping to set a trial date then. Prosecutors have made clear they want to move very quickly. Mr. Trumps Defense Attorneys have indicated theyll take any delay they can get. Thats a critical question, when will trial again as it relates the election. Garrett haake, thanks so much. Joining us now, former acting u. S. Solicitor contributor neal katyal and metty hasan and jonathan lemire. Neal, youve talked about this. It seems like transparency is so key, especially in this age of disinformation, which seems to be multiplying by the day with a. I. And other things on the horizon. Youve written a piece about why the trump trial should be televised. Tell us why. Look, i love garrett haake, but my question is why do we have to as american citizens have to have this trial filtered through people like him telling us what happened yesterday in the courtroom. Why do we have to look at these ridiculous cartoon sketches . Why cant we see this trial for ourselves, see the primary source . After all, this trial is being conducted in the name of the American People. Its being paid for by our tax dollars, and we have a right to see it. Thats particularly so because of the point you made about kind of deep fakes and about spins and things like that. Trump is a master of disinformation. The best way to avoid that is sunlight. Louis brandeis called it the best disinfectant. Federal law bars criminal trials from being televised. Thats the same thing we faced in the george floyd criminal trial in minnesota. The judge there recognized the historic nature of the george floyd trial. Similarly here, i think theres a deep need for an exception to the general federal rule about televising criminal trials. Isnt that especially true in this case, where disinformation is trumps best ally, his best friend. I have so many people i grew up with that say, oh, i never watch the news anymore. You cant trust news. You dont know what to believe. Yet, theyre reading chinese religious cult conspiracy websites or reading lies that somebody sent to them on facebook. Isnt it critical that they have it right in front of them on their tv sets every day to see . Very much so. Donald trump would not exist without misinformation, without the ability to spin and lie and say up is down, black is white, hot is cold. Theres been some great transparency in jack smiths pageturner of an indictment. Fani willis is being very transparent in georgia. We know trump is a performer. Herm wherever he is. Hes a con man. He knows how to play to the crowd. We all saw that cnn town hall. But in court, its a very different thing. Those of you who have seen his deposition when the tim obrien had the liable proceedings 10 or 20 years ago, you see how uncomfortable he is when being deposed, how he doesnt remember stuff. Seeing him in a courtroom will be very important. This is the biggest trial since o. J. Why should we be able to watch the o. J. Trial and not watch the trial of the century in which the accused crime is a crime against democracy . Thats an excellent point. Neal, i guess the question for a lot of people watching is, whats the argument against cameras in the courtroom at this point . I think the argument is almost an o. J. Like argument, that sometimes when you televise proceedings, it becomes a circus. That is a general issue with cameras. I dont doubt that. I think here either congress or the judicial conference of the United States run by the chief justice should authorize a limited exception for this trial and not get into the broader question. Thats so for two reasons. One, this is a crime about democracy. It is the most important trial perhaps in the history of the United States, if not darn close to it. So it exists in its own plane. The second is, donald trump is a master of destroying decorum anyway. If youre worried about the dignity of the court, one has to understand that trump and all of his allies are going to be doing that and sowing disinformation about what happened inside the courtroom every minute of every day. The best way to ensure dignity and decorum is to allow all americans to see this trial for themselves with their own eyes and make a judgment for themselves as opposed to having it spun by other people. A new survey shows donald trump leading the republican field in iowa, according to the latest new york sometimes poll. If the election for the republican president ial nominee were held today, 44 of iowa gop voters would vote for trump. Thats 10 less than his nationwide lead. Florida governor ronts comes ron desantis comes in at 20 . Tim scott is in third place with 20 . Jonathan lemire, still quite a ways to go. You have donald trump, the man who tried to overthrow American Democracy, at 44 , ron desantis, who said hes going to slit the throats of Public Servants the first day hes in office in second place. Its a fascinating lineup. Talk about picking your poison. The number i think is most telling is the fact that 91 of republicans who watch fox news say they dont believe donald trump has done anything wrong. Those numbers are much higher for people who get their news elsewhere. Brett bare, for instance, interviewed trumps attorney a few days ago, did a really good job, by the way. Happy birthday, brett. Weve also seen mr. Ducey in the morning talking about the issues straight up surrounding these charges. But a lot of the opinion hosts simply feeding disinformation day in and day out. And belittling whats happening. You see it in the numbers. 91 of those viewers dont think a guy whos been indicted three times, a guy who, it appears, stole Nuclear Secrets, they dont think hes done anything wrong. Again, i would say more arguments for cameras in the courtroom so there will be transparency and americans will be forced to see the truth. Mocking and belittle whats going on, false equivalencies with hunter biden. Were seeing that this morning. As far as the polls, a little bit of softening for trump in iowa. We should note iowa has never been trumps best state. Desantis is betting everything on iowa. Mike pence is also putting everything on iowa. There a brand new poll out of michigan this morning that shows trump and biden in a key swing state in a dead heat. If you had thirdparty candidates like cornell west, trump is ahead of biden there. Democrats are already getting very anxious about the idea of some thirdparty candidate. Polls show trumps resiliency, yes. But also people who are supporting him are living in their own media ecosystem, are only seeing these headlines from fox or their favorite conservative websites. Can anything be done to reach them between now and 2024 beyond cameras in this courtroom . Are they lost and gone and in trumps column . I suspect the people were talking about are lost. If you look at the original poll, they divided up the Republican Base. 37 are hard core trump or die. Zero percent of them think he did anything wrong. Theres another fascinating poll from marquette which showed 50 of Republican Voters think donald trump didnt have any classified documents at maralago. Its not even Donald Trumps argument. He just says, they were mine and i have a right to have them. But half the Republican Base doesnt think he has any documents. I dont think you can get through to people who are that cocooned. Yes, hes down on his national lead, but still a 24point lead, which is easily enough to win in a place like iowa that he lost to ted cruz, by the way, in 2016. Ron desantis has thrown everything at iowa and hes at 20 points, which tells you just how unlikable desantis is. The more you see desantis, the less you like him. If hes what the Republican Party are hoping is going to beat donald trump, thats a pipe dream. Back to the courtroom, im curious what you make of Donald Trumps statements yesterday after his arraignment, especially given the very specific directions the judge gave him. Can trump follow the rules . Hes never been capable of following the rules before. I do think that kind of stern warning in a courtroom that says if you try to manipulate the jury in any way, youre going to jail. Well see. I think trumps big gambit yesterday was to basically say this trial has to be moved from washington, d. C. , away from this judge, away from this jury pool, because he said theres too Many Democrats basically in washington, d. C. , which is, to put it mildly, not a legal argument. Trump is like, well, we should move the trial to West Virginia where people like me more. That argument is going to go nowhere. The argument in the george floyd trial was move the trial out of minnesota. The judge rejected it resoundingly, as i know the judge here almost certainly will for exactly the same reason. If you move the trial somewhere else, they also have pretrial publicity. Its not like people in West Virginia arent also reading the news. I think the most important point is that the constitution says the trial should be in the place where the crime occurred. Theres a lot of meaning yesterday when donald trump walks into that courtroom in washington, d. C. Just a few blocks from the white house and a few blocks from where the january 6th attack occurred. Thats where the trial belongs. The jury hasnt been chosen yet. Is speaking out publicly and perhaps calling this a persecution and a twotiered Justice System and maybe even lying about this indictment, could that pose any potential problems for the former president . It certainly can. Its coming close to the line now. You know, he could risk at first a gag order and then, secondly, possibly additional sanctions, including criminal sanctions if the behavior continues and escalates, which is kind of Donald Trumps m. O. Thank you so much. Metty hasan, thank you. Coming up on morning joe, breaking news on the economy. The July Jobs Report is out. Dom chu will join us with the new numbers. Dom chu will join us with the new numbers. [whistle] rover he will bark at you once, but then youre best friends for life. Helicopter on your finger to get his attention like this. King king. He loves people. Cant wait. When i first learned about my dupuytrens contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. And im glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldnt lay my hand flat anymore. The first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. So, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options which felt more right for me. So, what id say to other people with dupuytrens contracture is this dont wait find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. I found mine at findahandspecialist. Com. Limu emu doug what do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh . Bye, uncle limu. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Breaking news, the July Jobs Report was released this morning. It shows economy added 187,000 jobs last month, slightly below the dow jones estimate of 200,000. The Unemployment Rate dipped slightly to 3. 5 , just above the lowest level since 1969. Lets bring in senior markets correspondent for cnbc dom chu. Dom. What it comes down to and the reason why you are seeing markets react slightly positive to this and Government Bond prices rise and Interest Rates fall is because what it represents is a stillgrowing u. S. Economy when it comes to jobs, albeit at a slower pace, which works in the favor of the federal reserve, Interest Rate hikes and everything else. You mentioned the 187,000 jobs created. That was below consensus forecast. Some context around that, over the last 12 months of the year, the u. S. Economy has averaged a gain monthly of 312,000 jobs. Thats a significant reduction in what the average job creation has been over the past year. That lowerthanexpected job count is countered a little bit by slightly higher than expected wage growth than economists were expecting, which led to a slightly hotter 4. 4 year over year gain in wages. So wages are picking up a little bit more, while job growth in terms of job numbers is cooling off. The Labor Force Participation rate did not change month over month and the number of revisions to the two previous months took away 49,000 jobs from what was previously reported. Health care, financial services, construction, leisure and hospitality helped pace the gains. On balance, what it tells you is that, yes, the u. S. Economy is remaining resilient. Consumers are still relatively healthy, but things are cooling off. Thats the reason why the markets arent reacting too negatively to what could be perceived as a worse than expected jobs number. Again, you talk about threading the needle. Weve heard month after month you and Andrew Ross Sorkin coming ongoing the jobs numbers are big, strong, great. And yet concerns for the fed because the economy is heating up too much. This kind of looks like that soft landing the fed has been hoping for for quite some time, doesnt it . It does. Youll hear some analysts call it the goldilocks scenario where you can still maintain modest job growth alongside wage gains and you can still see the number of open positions in america fall while not having massive layoffs. You can tap the brakes on the economy without killing the jobs market overall and still manage to get inflation relatively in check. The problem that we do have contextually, anybody who pays for gasoline at the pump has noticed that those prices have been ticking higher over the last month or so. I know it. I drive every day. So the issue for the fed right now is if you are starting to see some initial signs that inflation might be starting to come up again. Thats something theyre going to have to watch very closely. Fuel prices are volatile. If it comes to food and rent prices, if they start to see that trend higher, theyre going to have to be a little bit more vigilant on that inflation front. A lot of those policymakers get together in jackson hole, wyoming, in the next few weeks here. Weve seen news anheuserbusch has been in the center of the republican culture war battles because of bud light. Their numbers have gone down in the United States over the past couple months, but anheuserbusch not noticing really, because globally their numbers are up. Theyve dropped in the u. S. Their numbers are up elsewhere. They say things have stabilized now. What can you tell us . You encapsulated it perfectly. What we did see was anheuserbusch did see global sales gains go up, but on lower volumes. This is the key point. What they are doing is selling more beer at higher prices, but less volume content overall. So price hikes are behind a lot of it, but it really comes down to whether or not you are seeing a lot of the expectations around bud lights drop. I will put some numbers around it to leave you can some context. Sales of bud light in the u. S. Fell by 25 in the corner, which led to the 10 drop in overall sales. They do see those sales declines reaching some stabilization, maybe even initial signs of improvement. Again, its going to be one of those tales where if they can get some kind of a turnaround. Coming up, the split screen we saw playing out yesterday while donald trump was busy facing a federal judge in court, President Biden was leisurely bike riding in delaware. Mike memoli is covering reaction from biden world, next. Before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for sunday today . This month we are calling it oscars august. You have all your oscars winners, our favorite conversations with winners and nominees all month long. We have begin with michelle yeoh. Of course, she won for Everything Everywhere all at once. She became the first asian woman ever to win the academy award. A great conversation to kick off oscars august this weekend over on nbc. Well be right back here on morning joe. 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Com amid the fallout from former President Trumps latest indictment this week, President Biden and the first lady have been spending their time on a vacation in delaware. Joining us from rehoboth beach, delaware, is mike memoli. It seems like movie nights and bike rides for the bidens. Reporter thats right. Ive covered a number of president ial vacations in the past. Sometimes that presented some splitscreen moments, the president trying to get out of the spotlight, but then world crises demand the president s attention. This week weve seen a different story. As these extraordinary evens events have been playing out with former President Trump on tuesday night, the president was on his way up the road and sitting across from his wife having dinner at a seafood restaurant. He then went to see oppenheimer and had a nice moonlight stroll with his wife. We were watching the former president s every move traveling to washington for his arraignment. The president was only seen here on a bike ride in which he sort of teased reporters who tried to get him to comment on it, saying he would not likely do so. This president is far removed in every possible way from the decisionmaking happening at the Justice Department as it relates to his political opponent. These split screens really couldnt be more jarring, but its a contrast that the biden team feels has worked for him in the past. The former President Trump has been a political wrecking ball, very much in everyones face on twitter and as president when he was constantly speaking in very difficult ways to the public. This is a president in contrast who prefers to keep his head down and just do the work. Hes often happy to fade from public view to let others get some credit while hes focused on the day job. They really believe this is a contrast that will continue to work for the president as we heads into his reelection campaign. Its going to be difficult for the white house to continue that splitscreen mentality as republicans are trying to make it a much more obvious split screen. We saw the president and first lady getting off of marine one making a quick skip over to wilmington today. Mike memoli, traveling with the president in delaware this morning. Thank you so much. Mika, mike is right. You see the president of the United States taking pains to not comment on this latest indictment. This is a Justice Department investigation on which he has in influence. Once again, the indictment was brought by american citizens who voted on that. Joining us is msnbc host alicia menendez. What did Julie Chaves Rodriguez tell you. She has an impressive resume. Before she was named Campaign Manager of this reelection campaign, she was at the White House Office of intergovernmental affairs. She worked with governors and mayors for things like emergency response. She was the deputy Campaign Manager back in 2020. She has deep roots, serving as Kamala Harriss state director. Of course, she came up through the united farm workers movement. Her grandfather was cesar chaves. She has never been tasked with running a campaign. She has made her way into bidens inner circle. I think we are running out of words and ways to talk about just how unprecedented this election is. Two questions i posed to julie. One, about the fact that the campaign is planning to run most likely against a thrice indicted, twice impeached former president. And theyre going to be campaigning in a variety of states, including seven states where specifically the former president and his coconspirators are charged with having pursued a fake elector scheme. What is the message in those states . Take a listen. We believe that we have a vision for the country that continues to expand freedoms, not take them away, that continues to ensure we have a robust democracy and that continues to ensure were investing in our future. Thats our vision for america and thats what were going to continue to make sure voters know and see a clear contrast with what the extreme maga agenda is right now. That is an agenda that were seeing around banning books, around denying freedoms, around injecting government in peoples everyday lives in ways that we know voters rejected in 2020 and 2022 and theyll reject again in 2024. Its about making sure that we are really talking to the American People about the issues that matter most. We know that these court cases will continue to move forward and theyll take their course of action. For us, again, its making sure were talking to voters about lowering Prescription Drug costs, lowering energy costs, really focused on what matters most to them right now and continuing to, again, ensure they understand the choice thats in front of them and the clear contrast of the extremism that were seeing from donald trump, from desantis, from the entire field versus what were delivering right now for the American People and really investing in our communities. Mika, you hear the frameworks that we have heard before from the Biden Campaign, this idea of competence versus chaos, this idea of more rights versus less rights from a Republican Party that wants to take rights away. Earlier in the week we showed you the latest National Survey that has donald trump tied with President Joe Biden in a hypothetical 2024 matchup. 43 apiece among registered voters. That tie is due in large part to eroding support for President Biden among some key groups that helped propel him to victory in 2020. Lets bring in msnbc contribuor john dellevolpe and reverend al sharpton. Good to have you both. John, what do we see in bidens poll numbers in some ways not surging at this point . I think a lot of those poll numbers are driven by the interdependence of younger voters, with africanamerican voters and hispanic voters which disproportionately are younger. This is a twoact play. A lot of those people have only chosen to check out the second act of the play. Theyve been tuned out of politics for the better part of the last couple of years to try to maintain some balance in their lives. The good news is for the Biden Campaign that if the campaign is tied now and youre underperforming among those see constituencies that have been supporter of democratic values, thats an opportunity for growth on that once the campaign really begins to communicate with folks. More broadly speaking, though, when we talk about the political issues, its a very dark moment in the country. But when we talk about personal issues, when we ask people not about how the economy is doing, but have you been able to take a vacation, how is your family, how healthy do you feel, we have a very, very different perspective. People are much happier than a lot of the polls might lead us to believe. You look at the numbers. Joe bidens support has dropped significantly among people of color, especially among latino voters, but also among black americans. Whats going on . Why are those numbers dropping . I think that its a matter of message and messengers. What i mean by that, i think theres clearly a case to be made to black and latino voters and voters of color over what joe biden and Kamala Harriss administration has done from the infrastructure bill to inflation reduction. The question is how you translate that so the average africanamerican, average latino and others understand what it means to them. Like these roadways are not just magically being dealt with now. Theyre jobs in your neighborhood. That has not been communicated and communicated by people they trust. I think the other part of this is when you look at the fact that you have a party that has basically killed affirmative action, that has robbed people of the right of saying that i, no matter what my life is, should be able to access businesses with the Supreme Court siding with a woman who had this lgbtq case. When you deal with the matter that the only reason we didnt get a george floyd bill is that the Republican Party voted against it. With these messages, i think the numbers will increasingly change. I dont think people are getting it. People tell me every day, why didnt something happen with the george floyd bill . Because every republican in the house and senate voted against it. Thats not getting out. If they get their message out, they will see that they were blocked. The challenge is to get the right message and the right messengers that people trust in those communities. These numbers frustrate the white house. Unemployment at historic lows, inflation is ticking down. The fed has taken the recession off the table for next year. That forecast is gone. Black unemployment is at record lows. We could go on and on down the list. President biden could say i tried for young people to erase their student loan debt. The court said i couldnt do that. Where is the room for growth as you talk to young people and poll them . They need to see the tangible difference this is making in their lives. I was quite surprised. I did a survey recently through my Company Social sphere. We asked on a zero to ten scale, how happy are you . The majority of americans gave an eight, nine or ten, which means they are very happy. Democrats and republicans indicate that the personal economic factors are much more aligned with the macro numbers that were seeing from the stock market and other indicators. When we pollute this conversation with overly politicized words now, thats when people divide into their red and blue camps. I think a reflection of how peoples individual lives are going could potentially change the dynamic here. I have a question for the pollster at the table, which is when you see the chyron that we pull up about the fact that theres erosion in some key groups, its important to point out when youre talking about latino voters, youre talking about a sample size of 140 people, which can give you a sense of direction. It doesnt necessarily tell you where those groups are nationally. Its important to underline when you talk about black voters, latino voters and aapi voters, they still support democrats at incredibly high rates. The concern among party officials, as i understand that is some slippage, and an understanding of why that is because of their knowledge that theyre going to rely on this coalition going into 2024. And it is not necessarily slippage in a twoway contest. What i think were seeing in this poll and some of our polls is concern about thirdparty and people just not making up their mind. Among those younger constituencies of which latino, African American and young people gen z are, there is two to three times more support for thirdparty options, no labels and green party, than we see for older voters. It is very complicated. I do think, though, the message and messengers are so important and i think what could give Julie Chavez Rodriguez some optimism is that the values are aligned. Values need to be aligned first before you can have a message and before you can have that messenger. I think thats something keeping the democrats afloat right now. So, john, george w. Bush would have never been elected in 2000 without ralph nader. Donald trump would have never been elected in 2016 without joe stein. Im wondering in 2024 we will be looking back saying donald trump would have never been reelected and continued his assault on American Democracy except for the candidacy of, say, cornell west or a no labels candidate. Lets be clear, i feel like i have to say this, you talk to anybody in l. A. , theyll tell you they have one goal and thats keeping donald trump out of the white house. So, well see what happens there. But lets just talk about cornell west. You know, how devastating is it if cornell takes 2 , 3 , 4 from joe biden in 2024 . Joe, i think if he takes that 2 to 3 , it is going to be from the constituencies we talked about and i think that could absolutely make the difference. Donald trump will be elected or not reelected, i think, based upon the no labels and green parties, cornell west. I dont think there is any question about his inability to get a majority of the american electorate and majority of the electoral college. I had a story this week about democrats being nervous about exactly this scenario, that this race is going to be close. Those close to the president are far more concerned about a cornell west figure or the professor himself stealing away just enough, progressive, young votes, black votes, whatever it might be, to tip the scales. Now, most democratic, even big progressive names like Bernie Sanders and aoc said, no, no, no, we have to stay with the president , the stakes are too high. We have seen donald trump made inroads with black men in 2020. How do you combine all the things, how worried should the white house be . Again, message and messenger. The question is, and i know and have a lot of respect for cornell west, ive not talked to him since the announcement. I dont know his strategy, but i think the way you handle this is do we, with a donald trump looming, do we want to make a statement or do we want a government . And i think that you got to talk to people just that clear. We absolutely need to make statements. But do we do it at the expense of losing government . A government that we see is bent on erasing everything that was won for blacks, for women, for gays, since the civil rights movement. And i think you take this headon. Rather than ignore it, rather than having something wrong with your buddy and you dont go to the doctor, you deal with the potential problem, you deal with the issues that are being raised, which may be the reason that theyre running. If you deal with the issues, i think you have people will make a real mature decision. But dont avoid the issue that is being raised. All right. Reverend al sharpton, thank you for being on this morning. Well be watching politics nation weekends at 5 00 p. M. Eastern on msnbc. Director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university, john della volpe, thank you as well. And alicea menendez, your exclusive interview with bidenharris Campaign Manager Julie Chavez Rodriguez airs tomorrow on your show american voices at 6 00 p. M. Eastern on msnbc. And a little news now, republican president ial candidate Chris Christie is in ukraine on a surprise trip to the wartorn nation. The former governor met with president Volodymyr Zelenskyy in kyiv. The Nations Capital. He also visited the once occupied city of bucha where he visited a mass burial site and laid a bouquet of flowers at a memorial for those lost in russias invasion. Chris christie joins us on morning joe on tuesday. Willie, final thoughts for the week . Wow. How to capture this week. This is a wow week. Maybe thats just the word to use, a former president of the United States sat in a d. C. Courtroom yesterday and was arraigned for alleged crimes he committed to overturn a president ial election. We have never seen it before. We dont know where we go from here. One thing we do know is were going to be very, very busy for the next 18 months. Jonathan lemire, this has been your beat since the 2016 election. Give us your thoughts on what youve seen. An extraordinary moment. One that almost has a routine to it now. This is the third time we have seen donald trump go into a courtroom, but it doesnt change how breathtaking it is, particularly this case here. Hes been accused of trying to subvert the very American Democracy he once swore an oath to protect and hes going to continue to face the charges as he runs for the office yet again. All right. And that does it for us this morning. Ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a short break. Cok s premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. 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And in a few minutes, an update on the gilgo beach killings. State, local and federal
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