>> thanks alex. the breaking news at this hour tonight is the astonishing news that donald trump's criminal defense lawyer, john lauro, who did a very solid and serious job in the courtroom today during donald trump's third criminal arraignment of the year, where donald trump once again pleaded not guilty, that lawyer then went on television and any fact pleaded donald trump guilty to the charge of attempting to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the united states. everyone except donald trump knows the criminal defendants should not speak publicly about their cases. the same is almost always true for criminal defense lawyers. the most common response from criminal defense lawyers to requests for interviews about their pending cases is one word, no. most successful criminal defense lawyers never grant television interviews, never. too many of donald trump's lawyers are too eager to talk on trump supporting television about their client. and so tonight trump criminal defense lawyer john lauro, in his first interview after donald trump pleaded not guilty to conspiring to trying to get vice president mike pence to break the law, donald trump's criminal defense lawyer actually said this. >> professor eastman laid out a series of options that we discussed with vice president pence. vice president pence disagreed on certain issues but ultimately a president trump said is, let's go with option the, let's just halt, let's just pause the voting allow the state legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether the elections were handled fairly. >> oh i only wish the coal room had caught andrew weissmann's eyes widening at what he just heard here. that is a trump criminal defense lawyer quoting donald trump committing a crime. don trump's criminal defense lawyer tonight added information to special prosecutor jack smith's 42-page description of donald trump's crimes. the conversation that john laurel first described appears on pace 34 of the indictment against his client client. the diamond describes that conversation is a con criminal conspiracy. the version of that conversation that donald trump's criminal defense lawyer delivered tonight is every bit as criminal as the version that appears in the indictment. on page 34 of the indictment it says, on january 4th, the defendant, don trump held a meeting with coconspirator john eastman. the vice president chief of staff, and the vice president's counsel for the purpose of convincing the vice president, based on the defendant, donald trump's knowingly false claims of election fraud, that the vice president should reject or send to the states biden's legitimate electoral votes rather than count them. that criminal conduct described in that sentence was admitted tonight on television by donald trump's criminal defense lawyer. the indictment has more about that meeting. quote, during the meeting, as reflected in the vice presidents contemporary us notes, the defendant, donald trump, made no knowingly false claims of election fraud, including, bottom line, when every state by hundreds of thousands of votes and, we won every state. the defendant, known trump, and coconspirator john eastman then asked the vice president to either unilaterally reject the legitimate electors from the seven targeted states or send the question of which state was legitimate, which slate was legitimate, to the targeted states legislatures. in a shockingly incompetent slip, to put it mildly, on television tonight, donald trump's criminal defense lawyer actually emitted to that accusation in the indictment. donald trump's lawyer, you just heard, and don trump's lawyer said tonight on television, what president trump said is, let's go with option b. let's just halt. let's just pause the voting and allow the state legislators to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections are handled fairly. that is essentially what jack smith is accusing donald trump of having said. the indictment says that when vice president mike pence challenged john eastman on the legality of that idea in that meeting, quote, coconspirator john eastman responded, well nobody's tested before. the vice president and told the defendant, don trump, did you hear that? even your own counsel is not saying i have that authority. the defendant, no trump responded, that's okay, i prefer the other suggestion, of the vice president rejecting the electors unilaterally. don trump's criminal defense lawyer tonight on television in effect admitted that the indictment is an accurate description of that meeting. >> professor eastman laid out a series of options that were discussed with vice president pence. vice president pence disagreed on certain issues. but ultimately what president trump said is, let's go with option b. let's just halt, let's just pause the voting and allow the state legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. >> wow. john eastman knew that it would be a crime to do that. and john eastman said in writing that it would be a crime to do that. what don trump was asking mike pence to do. and went on trump's criminal defense lawyer tonight admits on television the donald trump was asking mike pence to do. the pause the don trump's criminal defense lawyer says don trump was asking for was a crime and it was the very last crime the donald trump and his coconspirators asked vice president to commit. they asked him to commit the crime many times. but the very last time donald trump's coconspirators asked mike pence to commit that crime was not before mike pence went to the capitol on january six to preside over electoral college vote count ceremony. it was at 11:44 pm on january 6th, after the trump mob attacked the capitol, attacked police officers, said they wanted to attack mike pence, so they wanted to kill nancy pelosi. after the was capitol under attack for hours on end with trump doing nothing to stop it, hours after the trump criminal mob was driven out of the capitol building and in the middle of a congress's continuation of the official process of counting the electoral votes, at 11:44 pm, john eastman put his latest criminal proposal in writing and admitted in writing at the time that it was a crime. page 42 of the indictment says at 11:44 pm, coconspirator to john eastman emailed the vice presidents counsel advocating that the vice president violate the law and seek further delay of the certification. john eastman wrote i, employer you to consider one more relatively minor violation of the electoral count act and adjourn for ten days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations. john eastman, in that email, called the crime that he was urging the vice president to commit, a relatively minor crime. a relatively minor violation of law. there he is, in writing, admitting that it's a violation of law and tonight don trump's criminal defense lawyer said, on television, the don trump urged mike pence to commit that violation of law. what >> president trump said is, let's go with option the, let's just halt, let's just pause the voting and allow the state legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. >> we've invited on trump's criminal fence lawyer lawyer, john lauro to join us on the program tonight, and in any point in the future to discuss the crime that he admitted tonight, that his client committed, and then aspect of the case that he may still be reckless enough to talk about on television. some criminal defense lawyers have significant experience talking on television. john lauro was not one of them. he began his national television exposure this week. after his client was indicted. he offered easily dismissed lame defenses of donald trump saying don trump had a first amendment right to advocate committing crimes and that when donald trump was saying those things he was saying them on the advice of his lawyer, john eastman, another easily dismissal defense. john eastman being a coconspirator in the conspiracy. but it sounded like the only saying that john lauro could say if he was gonna do television interviews. the wisest course for john laurel was to say nothing and to leave the public relations to donald trump. but today on the single most important day of his life as a lawyer, as he stood next to a former president of the united states being arraigned for federal crimes in washington, d.c., in the full throes of the excitement of the day, john laurel decided to do one more tv interview. and in that interview with a friendly network he made the single biggest public mistake a criminal offense lawyer can possibly make. he offered a quoted version of his client speaking in a conversation already labeled criminal in the indictment that his client was facing, and he thought that he was clever enough to quote donald trump saying something that was going to get donald trump off the hook. instead john lauro hooked donald trump in the same way the jack smith's indictment does. i have never seen a moment like this, with a criminal defense lawyer. never. it is inconceivable that john lauro could get this far into this case and somehow believe what john eastman says in writing, that he never believed, john eastman says he never believed, that it was legal for mike pence to pause the counting of electoral votes. john lauro had a completely competent and professional first day in court with donald trump. i read the transcript of it. he was flawless in the courtroom. and then he went on tv. and blew the case. john lauro, remember, is many thousands of times brighter than donald trump. but he still not smart enough to answer a fox performers easy questions about on trump. so manage a donald trump trying to answer questions in his own defense, on a witness stand, under oath, be cross-examined by jack smith's criminal trial team. john lauro trying to make sense of what donald trump was saying to mike pence could not get through a fox tv conversation about it without further incriminating donald trump. don't trump would do much worse than john lauro, answering questions under oath about what he said to mike pence. don trump was under oath today for the first and probably the last time in this case. deputy clerk, mr. trump, please stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that you will well and truly answer all questions propounded to you, so help you god. >> the defendant, i do. don trump survived is under oath questioning today because he wasn't asked much more than his name at his age. on that second question his age, he gave an odd answer. the court, mr. trump, how old are you? the defendant, 77. apparently don trump is uncomfortable with his age, so accountability doesn't like to say 77. imagine for just a moment, if joe biden ever answered the question how old are you the way donald trump did today, the network where john lauro was trying to defend on trump would accused biden of being mentally capable of serving as president. if you ever answered the way the question the way don trump did, under oath, in that courtroom today-y. we have a lot of legal ground to cover tonight, especially with this breaking news and our team of lawyers is here, including one who was in the courthouse in washington today, leading off our discussion tonight is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of new york. he's a professor in practice at nyu law school. also glenn kirschner, former fellow current prosecutor who was at the courthouse today. both msnbc legal analysts. glenn kirschner, let me start with you, as our eyes and ears to everything that happened in that room. i read the transcript and i have to say, john lauro delivered when i read to be the single best performance by a trump lawyer in the courtroom yet. no wiseguy comments about the prosecutions. no nasty sleazy remarks or slight here and there. just professional all the way through. we and then he goes on fox and throws the case away. but take us into the courtroom. >> yes, it's not that hard to be professional during an arraignment because generally nothing earth shattering happens. but i agree all parties performed well. but what i really enjoyed about watching, even though i was in the overflow courtroom, it was the specter of judge tanya chutkan hung over that proceeding. the proceeding was conducted by a magistrate judge. that's not unusual. the magistrate judges often handle the relatively straightforward, low level, preliminary matters like an arraignment. but boy, when the magistrate judge said the prosecution will file a brief in seven days with their proposed trial date, and how long they believe their case in chief will last, and the defense will file up reply seven days thereafter with their proposed trial date. that's when john lauro got a bit excited, because not once, not twice but three times he tried to argue, judge, judge we can't possibly give you a proposed trial date because we don't know how much discovery the prosecution is going to deliver to us, but when the magistrate judge followed up with a pretty stern response, she said, you will file a proposed trial date, and then there will be a hearing 25 days from now. august 28th, at which time judge chutkan will set a trial date. that is unusual. it's not surprising knowing the judge that judge chutkan's. i tried murder cases against with her when she was a public defender. i was a decision attorney in d.c. trying homicide cases. it wasn't surprising but it was unusual because ordinarily at these arraignment hearings, where the magistrate judge will do is say, let's all come back in about a month and we will bring our calendars and will begin to ruminate about possible job. it no. judge chutkan will be setting a trial date 25 days from now. i predict it's going to be a speedy trial. >> andrew weissmann, to the point that we learned from john lauro tonight, he's offering an alternative piece of dialogue to what appears in the indictment. he's offering us these words from donald trump's mouth. what president trump said is, let's go with option b, let's just halt, let's just pause the voting and allow the state legislatures to take one last look and make a determination. >> i don't why a defense lawyer is going to start giving facts about a critical moment. by the way, it is such a damning thing when you put it in context. remember, what the indictment alleges is prior to that the reason this had to be done with the vice president is because prior to that all the efforts that trump took with respect to the secretaries of state did not work. for him to say let's just double check, there's nothing to double check. he actually threatened criminal prosecution against the secretary of state of georgia and he still stuck to his guns. so this, we'll, let's just bide some time, it's illegal, and it's not like there's any real dispute. he knew the secretaries of state head said to him, no, there is no issue, these have been certified, there is no legal basis to do it. so i just don't know why john, who is a good lawyer, did not just zip it and not say anything. >> they don't teach tv in law school. >> one other point, which i don't think we will get to this, but if it defense lawyer who makes a statement on behalf of their client, that is an admission. >> okay, so this admissible in court? >> you have to make a motion and say i am saying this was an agent of the defendant. i mean, again, the judge would have discretion to say maybe this particular statement wasn't made for him. but there's a case called caf that says when you are an agent of a defendant your making a statement on his or her be her behalf, that is admissible. so again, that is why it is fine to say -- but to start weighing in on this, not the donald trump is going to testify, but if he were and he didn't say exactly, he can be cross-examined on this. so if this this was a rookie mistake. to be clear, john is a good lawyer. i think this was not a smart move. >> i agree that what i've seen so far in the transcript, he's a good lawyer in the courtroom. this is absolutely stunning. it happens in what is his third day on television. maybe his second day on television. he was doing the same interview, glenn kirschner, with everyone, and just saying, first amendment, advice of counsel. he's doing the same thing with every interview and then tonight, and by the way, he was doing that in this interview the first half of it, and then tonight he gets to this point, where he starts putting words in his defendants mouth. he starts quotations defendant on the crucial conversation in the indictment with the vice president. and, by the way, the vice presidents chief of staff is there as a witness to this, the vice president's counsel was there, as a witness to this. many witnesses to this conversation. and john lauro decide that would make an entry into that conversation right now, which are learning from andrew weissmann is admissible in this case, which is what i was wondering about as soon as i heard him say it. >> it makes no sense, lawrence. i mean, what i hear when you play that clip of john moreau saying, you know, donald trump just said let's go with option d, donald trump said let's go with criminal option d. what i appreciate about the way jacks mitt structure this indictment, with the six coconspirators, not named but largely identified in substance, five of them are lawyers. so ordinarily there is a defense of advice of counsel. look, i may have done something wrong, but i was relying on the advice of counsel. this is not quite that. the five lawyers named as coconspirators really converts this into an advice of coconspirators defense. because that's who the lawyers. our coconspirators. so it really does diminish the force of an advice of counsel defense when all of your council giving you advice are your coconspirators in a criminal endeavor. so i don't know why john lauro chooses to talk, but he should probably talk. stop. >> it seems like to speak up a talking point saying he was just asking for a pause because that's what senator cruz was asking for on the senate floor. listen to what mark short said about this today. that talk about pause was in the air before john lauro said this. marc short, vice presidents chief of staff, was in the room when all of these things were said by donald trump. let's listen to what he said today. >> i think there is some of this notion out there you're hearing from the president's defense counsel that they just wanted the vice president to return it to the states, which of course the vice president has no such authority to do and or has any vice president throughout the years. but it's important to know that the request was for vice president to simply unilaterally dismiss the electors. the prosecution has no -- the president seniors advisers, says pence isn't gonna go along with that, perhaps we can pivot to this other plan. >> one more, this is a quick one. what mike pence said about the pause. >> the american people deserve to know that president trump and his advisers didn't just ask me to pause. they asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election. >> andrew, overturn the election is the vice president's phrase for what they were asking him to do. and pause is as illegal is everything else they're asking him to do. >> it is wishy-washy as mike pence has been up until this point. there is something, look, he has sort of found religion in the sense that yes, this is now a public so we can't, he can't put his head in the sand. there's something remarkable about the former vice president to the knighted states in his staff telling us what happened in the oval office with the president two donated states saying. clearly understood by the vice president that he should overthrow the votes of americans. the thing that is so disheartening about this is this should not be a political issue. you would think this would be an american issue, when i was growing up they were all these republicans who were law and order republicans who would be completely appalled by this. to me it's like, there are a lot of good republicans. can you please run one of them. this is so unbelievable that really a star witness in this case is going to be the former vice president of united states. >> glenn kirschner, the other thing that john lauro did tonight on television was further promote the star witness against his star witness mike pence, who was already provoked enough by the release of his indictment to just go full out they are now on donald trump. john lauro just made mike pence kind of all the more forceful about this. we yeah and as andrew said mike pence seems to found a religion. of course mike pence is forever telling us about his religion. it seems like he's found allegiance to the rule of law hearing him talk the way he is talking now, better late than never. i never understood how it was that when donald trump waged that relentless pressure campaign against mike pence then when you read in the indictment, donald trump ultimately said if you don't do what i'm telling you to do, i am going to have to criticize you publicly. and then mid-attack in the capital, he says that a tweet blaming mike pence. mike pence didn't have the courage to do what he should've done to protect our democracy and our constitution which inspired the mob to want to hang mike pence. i will never understand why it took so long for mike pence to come to the place where apparently he now resides, which is fully blaming donald trump for not only tried to overturn american democracy but endangering his life, the life of his family, the life of all the police officers at the capitol and everyone who is in the u.s. capital building that day. he will ultimately be a powerful and damning witness against donald trump. >> glenn kirschner thank you very much for starting off our discussion. andrew weissmann is going to remain with us for the rest of the hour. coming up, we will hear more from the star witness mike pence who has much more to say in the last 24 hours. that's next. 24 hours that's next. 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next president. i dismissed it out of hand but sadly, president was surrounded by a group of crack pot lawyers who kept telling him what is itching ears wanted him to hear. and i made my case to what i thought my oath of the constitution were acquired, the president ultimately continued to demand that i choose him over the constitution. >> andrew weissmann is with us and, also joining our discussion timothy a former u.s. attorney's earned at the lead investigator for the january six committee. our burma quite is a four law attorney and professor at the university michigan law school. she's an msnbc analyst. tim mick he let me start with your no, how you wanted to hear from the generous vice present on the january six committee. you're only able to do that now. he says the first time i heard about this in early december, i rejected it refused to accept it. the very first time. and then the last time of course was 11:44 pm on january 6th. >> he did ask a lot of questions after december if it was true. i think he was doing some diligence, he called dan quayle, he called paul ryan. he didn't talk to judge luttig but his counsel reached out to judge luttig for advice. ease doing some diligence. she has craig jacob's lawyer to research the situation even before december. but what he said there in the clip there in indiana is consistent with what marc short and greg jp cup told us. he was consistent that he did research and asked for advice. he was pretty convinced all along that -- -- -- he's an important witness -- in my view there are witnesses who cooperated, and if you remove any one of them -- barbara mcquade >> the former president. he is going to say to the jury under oath you are too honest a jury in the flow of this evidence i'm expecting jack smith destructive the flow of this evidence so that this former vice president becomes the real commander in that room from the witness stand and the person who they wish was in charge will wish in charge on january six. >> you know regardless of what we call him, star witness or how he stacks up against other witnesses because maybe we hear from mark meadows and other people who are very powerful, important witnesses. no doubt mike pence will be a very significant witness in this case. i think in part because of his unique role. i think in part because he alone had conversations with president trump and he's the only one who can describe some of those conversations in those situations. but also because of his deep loyalty for the president from before the election in 2016 throughout the administration, was always a falling light wing meant for donald trump. so the for him to testify against him will be very powerful. one of the things i thought there was so persuasive about the january 6th select committee hearings, that the key witnesses were all republicans. they were all people who worked for or near or with donald trump. i think that in similar fashion, witnesses we are going to hear from in this trial will also be republicans and trump loyalists. none more loyal certainly the mic. pence >> andrew, the pence's testimony is so simple and clear now and being delivered on the campaign trail so it has us double impact. we can anticipated in the courtroom but it's being heard by people who don't want to hear it. he said very clearly, frankly what the president has said over and over again over the last two and a half years is completely false. that's mike pence talking about donald trump. >> he's doing something that jack smith can't do. he is actually allowing voice to the allegations and the indictment in a way the jack can't, because he's not gonna publicly speak about, so it is having that effect of getting the word out a least an important witness. i think there's one other thing about mike pence. he's almost an exhibit. here is a guy who was on the same ticket. it's trump and pence. and you have the vice president knowing he lost, saying there's got to be a peaceful transfer of power. so you have an example just in his person of someone who was doing what you're supposed to do and you have an example of someone who's not. that is going to speak volumes in terms of him just being there and setting the example for how you are supposed to behave. >> unlike mark meadows and other brig witnesses in this case, mike pence was in the capital on january 6th and they were chanting that they wanted to kill him. the drama associated with his testimony it's gonna be something. organist weighs in a quick break right here. we'll keep all of our guests in place. we'll be back with more right after this break. after this break i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of 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again. he offered testimony from donald trump. he said on television tonight. at the and, he meaning trump asked mr. pence to pause the voting for ten days, allow the legislators to weigh in and then they can make a determination to audit or re-audit or recertify. so there he is saying again deliberately none, this is no slip, this is no accident. this was his decision to go on television tonight to say that at the end he asked mr. pence to pause the voting for ten days. andrew weissmann, as we have already pointed out, the lawyer who was advising them on this, in writing said, he believed it's against the law to do that. >> there is no advice of counsel for that reason, the white house deputy counsel told president trump at the time at john eastman actually said this theory does not work. by the way, the opening part of what john floral added which was at the end, he's adding that because he is just heard from mike pence and his counsel. that's not a good idea because they just said, that's not what he initially did, he initially said just throw it out. not qualifier is actually confirmatory and what we just heard mike pence say. just to be clear again, this idea that it needed to go back to the states, that is something that we know from this indictment, that we know from the tape recordings and brad raffensperger, that did not work. this was just a play for time, of can we just get this back and we can go back and continue pressuring the states. because they knew that didn't work. so this was plan b after plan a failed with mike pence which was exactly what mike pence was saying. >> to me, the unprofessionalism of john lauro outside of a courtroom now is just playing on itself. i think andrew's point is right. you saw on other networks today, he saw mike pence talking about the pause and how ridiculous that was. you saw mike pence's chief of staff talking about the pause and how ridiculous that was, and it seems like john lauro was watching tv and decided to make his next reply on television and replied to what he was hearing from other people on tv today? >> it's really hard to tell lawrence what he knows and what he's paying attention to. what actually happened was that we learn from people that were in the room when that happened, marc short and craig jacob that john eastman sensing that mike pence was reluctant to throw the electors out and accept the fake electors, proposed this pause. the vice president was also very resistant to that, so they went back to the original plan, just throw them out. it was a casting about of, what about this, what about that? and the vice president said i don't have the authority to do any that. and so all of, that john eastman conceded that as you have indicated as the indictment indicates and writing and then in conversation with greg jacob. and then even in a meeting on january 4th as well. so none of it matters, the sequence, both ideas were battered unconstitutional. john eastman knew it, mike pence certainly know, time is donald trump noted. >> so barbara mcquade, donald trump's defense lawyer has tonight publicly entered two statements from donald trump very similar in warding but two statements that andrew suggests could be admissible in the trial, a trial or no one expects donald trump to take the stand and testify himself, this might be evidence in that case as presented by the prosecution as an admission to what they are accusing donald trump of doing? >> i think donald trump and his lawyers play different gain in the rest of us. i think we are all focused on the evidence it's gonna come in on trial in the court, and i think what he said tonight is harmful and, it's not gonna provide any valid legal offense, but i think donald trump's game is to win in the court of public opinion. detained the potential jury pool, solely needs one person there to nullify it. this is all about getting the public talk about it, now relayed and his lawyers and to get a pause, a think that's the game replying here. but as a dangerous game, because ultimately in a courtroom, the judge is going to instruct the jury to pay attention to the facts and the law and what they hear in court, not anything that's extraneous. that's how the system is supposed to work and i believe it will work in this case. >> we're gonna squeeze in a final break right here. when we come back we're gonna have a video of this latest admission by donald trump's criminal defense lawyer. we'll be right back after this break. ter this break. ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or 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>> sort of suggests that he is going to testify. if you are going out affirmatively with a story, a narrative, it's actually not a counter narrative, it's just a narrative with what jack smith is indicated, what mike pence is set, sort of indicates the donald trump will get up until the story. again, ill-advised for a lawyer to provide all that information which really seems to reinforce the presidents case. i think what are upset earlier is exactly right. this seems to be a public relations defense as opposed to a legal defense. again, he is now admitting that the president encouraged mike pence to do something that the person upon whom he was relying for advice john eastman he conceded not have merit. it seems like an admission, so the bar must be correct as that he must be trying to appeal to the masses to win this case instead of a legal defense in court. >> we are all hoping tim is right about donald trump testifying in the course. to be very illuminating to hear from the defendant in this case. i hope we get that lucky. so this is clearly now barbara, this was a decision that was made, very strange decision made to go out publicly and make admission like this? >> it does seem like it's a decision and not just a mistake. it's almost like they're crowdsourcing their defenses. last year we heard about first amendment, throw a few out there and let's see what resonates with the public. they're almost focus gripping the defense -- i think this is all about winning in the court of public opinion and that's trump's game in some way he succeeds in playing that game. i think it's a very different reality when you get inside a courtroom and a judge instructed the jury to focus on the facts and the law. rigorous jury instruction i hope can help funnel out anybody who might be inclined to nullify the law. >> andrew, two nights ago at this hour, i thought the most difficult question of the day for a lawyer, when you look at this indictment, we had the indictment for the first time, can you see a criminal defense in the courtroom? you couldn't but some other republicans have been kind of throwing them around and barber is right. there is a kind of crowd sourcing element to what john lauro said tonight, because there's some republican officials, saying he just wanted that pause, the positive cruz was asking for. and here we are. >> we saw that in the mar-a-lago case as soon as the search happened. i used to call a defense do juror. du jour. documents were just sent in a rush, so let's see what plays. one thing that john laura's statement is that he's gonna have a very important decision to make probably the most important decision coming up at the end of august when the judge decides the trial date. he needs to be conveying to the judge that he is massively busy just looking through the january six committee evidence that tim and his colleagues put together. going on tv is not going to impress the judge that this is something that it is so massive that he can't get his arms around. it's not to say that this is not an aspect of defense but the impression you are giving right now until the end of august which is when she is making the critical decision in the case. everyone clearly understands. when is the trial day? that is the whole ball game, that's what everybody is talking about, this is not a defensible case. so that is everything. this is not a good look in terms of impressing, this is an adult judge, these are not children, this isn't a political serious person. this is not going to help him in that argument. >> let's listen in 20 more seconds about what mike pence said today on a new hampshire radio show on the campaign trail. >> i just want the american people to know that i did my duty that day and president trump was wrong and saying that i had some right to overturn the election. that's completely false, he continues to repeated, his allies in the media continue to repeat it and i'm not gonna stand for it. >> tim heaphy, there is mike pence saying donald trump was wrong, it's completely false, that is the law. he is not letting up on this. he is kind of a jack smith co-counsel there on the campaign trail. >> absolutely. he is saying out loud what is chief of staff and his lawyer told us what the documents reflect, what everybody else is said. he now is saying it himself. that's important, let's directed not circumstantial evidence. he is an important voice here in part because of this principle but because he also is a real victim. i think it was you lawrence who said earlier, he has a human dimension of this, he was 40 feet from the rioters as he's fleeing the senate chamber down to a secure location in the capital. they get that close to him chanting that he should be hung. so there is a human dimension on top of the anger principle that he provides that will be important. but again there are a lot of important witnesses. there's a lot of strong evidence that is coming and that is why jack smith is holding a full house, not a pair of twos. >> that's gonna have to be tonight's last word. tim heaphy, barbara mcquade and andrew weissmann thank you very much for staying with me during this breaking news. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle is next. ie ruhle is next. live pictures of former president donald trump coming for his third arraignment informants. >> it's a bizarre thing. >> the trump gets arrested. >> well it is not the first indictment it is arguably the most important. >> donald trump has

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