Transcripts For MSNBCW Chris 20240704

Hutchinson, one of the few republican candidates who has been critical of trumps legal problems despite the fact the former president seems to be gaining, not losing political strength with each and every indictment. Were keeping also a close eye on the Security Situation surrounding the courthouse as a mix of federal and city Law Enforcement blanket the area ahead of trumps rapidly approaching arrival. Were also learning new details about the latest indictment that appears to rely on testimony from high level Trump Administration officials including former Attorney General bill barr and of course former Vice President mike pence. So lets start the hour with nbcs Aaron Gilchrist outside the court, Peter Alexander and kristen welker, the cohosts of weekend today, former fbi general counsel, andrew weissmann, kristy greenberg, and former u. S. Attorney Chuck Rosenberg on set with us. So aaron, kick us off from outside the courthouse. Whats the atmosphere out there as we get closer to President Trumps arrival . Reporter you know, its sort of a tale of two cities. Were right off the national mall. You can see the capitol dome behind me. Tourists are moving about. Traffic is moving. You swing around to the actual courthouse and things are different. You see an increased Law Enforcement presence. These barriers, these metal fences have gone up all around the courthouse. That happened late last night. Completely encircling the courthouse. You may be able to see a plow truck here as well, just on this side of the street, there are several of these trucks lined up along with d. C. Police cruisers. Part of the Security Presence set up in anticipation of the former president s arrival. Its atypical for this area to see this sort of a Law Enforcement presence, but as you know, d. C. Is a city that has more than a dozen different Law Enforcement agencies that operate here, and they all work in tandem when theres a high profile person or high profile event happening here in the city. At this point, as we understand it, access to the courthouse has been limited to one entrance and only to people who have business here. There is still other business happening inside the courthouse, but we can show you video from a little while ago, the presence of demonstrators has been growing here as well over the last hour or so, both people who are supporters of former President Trump and people who are carrying signs that say things like lock him up, people who want to see that be the outcome to the trial that likely will happen here in d. C. And in other places, and we have watched those numbers grow throughout the afternoon here. You can anticipate that as the former president makes his way into this area, we believe hell go into the garage entrance. We likely wont see him come into any main doors here, and then will be arraigned and fingerprinted. At this point, though, it is fairly quiet here. People are still moving about as tourists do, but the Law Enforcement presence is one that is growing as well. Things that we see and as you might imagine, a lot of things we dont see. So kristen, as trump makes his way to the courthouse, hes been posting on social media, including this, writing that a fourth indictment, so that would require another one, would insure his election. That hes being arrested for you, his supporters. Kristen, you covered the trump white house. What do you make of that tone and that message . Sound familiar . It sure does. That is classic trump rhetoric. And hes also speaking to what we have seen, the reality of this situation, that with each new indictment, his poll numbers have continued to go up. In fact, according to a recent poll, 71 of gop voters dont think that he broke any law. His lead now 37 points over his nearest rival, ron desantis. Just think about that. That is a staggering number. What have we seen from his gop rivals . Well, look, some of them are making their entire campaigns about trump. You have Chris Christie, Asa Hutchinson, who youre going to be talking to, will hurd, who have sharpened their attacks against the former president. Notably, we saw his former Vice President , mike pence, really change his tone. Yesterday saying that anyone who violates the constitution should not be in the oval office. Thats really some of the strongest rhetoric we have seen from the former Vice President. And of course, he is mentioned frequently in this indictment, which lays out in great detail the ways in which former President Trump tried to force his number two to change the results of the election, something that mr. Pence has said repeatedly as recently as just yesterday he was not prepared to do. He wasnt going to break the law. I think the key question becomes what does this mean for the gop primary . Practically speaking, we have just seen mr. Trump expand his lead over his rivals. And you have candidates like ron desantis, nikki haley, tim scott, walking a very fine line. Really keeping their sights on the doj, not criticizing mr. Trump. Will that change as we get closer to the debate, which is now less than three weeks away . Well have to see. How do they reclaim the spotlight here, because right now, its solely focused on mr. Trump, which speaks to that truth social post you read there. Exactly, and peter, the former president is also using these indictments to make a string of political attacks every day against President Biden, Attorney General garland, certainly the Special Counsel jack smith, also Letitia James now in his latest ad, who is pursuing that separate civil case against him in new york state. So how does how do all of they handle this, the prosecutors trying to just ignore it as much as they can, but this is very much a part of his strategy . No doubt, not so much a political strategy as it is a legal one. What happens inside the courtroom at the end of the day will be what affects his legal future. Everything he says publicly affected his numbers as it regards his polling. Step back as we watch the president now preparing to leave newark, about 199 miles as the crow flies from Newark Airport to dca, to Washington National where hes expected to arrive a short time from now. Not as president but as a criminal defendant, and this as we look around the scene that you have now seen, is a familiar one but its no less extraordinary at this point. The third indictment for President Biden. This one, though, taking place in a federal courthouse, a u. S. District courthouse that is really at the steps of the u. S. Capitol. Just a series of blocks away. The base of that monument to american democracy that the former president is accused of trying to subvert. We have been talking about the Security Situation here. You have the secret service, the Capitol Police that say they are prepared, there have been a series of different calls. You also have the d. C. Police and the federal protective services, they were handing out stickers to those reporters and others who were here right now that if they see anything to share that information and make sure this remains a peaceful place. Inside, when the president arrives, as we noted, hes going to go through a Back Entrance in his vehicle. Its unlikely well see him at any point. When he was at the last indictment that took place in florida, that one in and out. Not in the courtroom, but in and out of the building, under two hours. Here its expected to be perhaps less than that, when he comes before the magistrate judge. The judge is thought the judge who is going to be overseeing this case itself. Thats a woman by the name of tanya chucken. Shes significant to all of this as well. She is a jamaican born Obama Appointee who was nominated back in 2014. She has some history not just with january 6th and those events that surrounded the attack on the capitol, but also with the former president. Its actually in this very courthouse where more than 1,000 of the criminal defendants accused of storming the capitol have had their proceedings, have given their pleas, have in some cases been found guilty. More than 700 found guilty. 560plus serving sentences that are as long as 18 years. The attorney, her experience with the former president dates back to november of 2011, when then former President Trump was pursuing his executive privilege claim, trying to keep away white house records from the House Committee investigating january 6th. It was this very judge, known for her toughness, and for her tough talk as well, said president s are not kings. And the plaintiff is not president. So she will not today but in the near future come facetoface again with former President Trump. Peter, let me just ask you because were watching Donald Trumps plane take off and make its way here. What are you hearing, if anything, about the possibility of whether he may have some comments . He certainly has been active, at least three times i think if im counting correctly, since we have gone on the air that hes posted on truth social. Will he have something to say for the cameras . Reporter well, its unclear if hell say anything do the cameras. There is a traveling pool, as we describe it, a small group of reporters and photographers with him onboard the plane as its taking off en route to washington, d. C. Its most likely if he does say anything, it would happen on the tarmac, perhaps at dca when hes leaving town. I doubt well hear from him when he first gets here. Frankly to your point, we may not hear from the former president inside the courtroom. The courtroom 22 here, on the second floor, when he stands before the magistrate. Even when there is the expected not guilty plea in the indictment, the arraignment that took place, when the president surrendered in florida in the not too distant past, it was his attorney who spoke on his behalf. He didnt mutter a word in that hearing. Its possible we dont hear from the president outside the courtroom or inside either. Lets talk about the case that could be facing donald trump when it goes to trial. Obviously, this is ten minutes maybe today inside that courtroom for the arraignment. I want to read to you something from the New York Times on the defense that trump believes he won the election. And heres what that story says. If you repeat something enough, he has told confidantes over time, people will believe it. By and large, this trait has served him well, helping him bluster and bluff his way through bankruptcies and then to the white house. And through crises once he was there. Personal scandals, two impeachments and a Special Counsels investigation when he was in office. But now, hes being held to account in a way that he never has before. If youre on his legal team, maybe youre on the plane with him right now, what are the conversations youre having with him as hes going into the courthouse, but also in general, about how this time may well be very different . Well, its not an easy thing to be one of Donald Trumps lawyers because it doesnt seem as though he really listens to his lawyers. He talks a lot. He says a lot on truth social. Makes a lot of comments that really have inconsistent defenses throughout, and his words will be used against him, you can be sure that every Public Statement he makes. Every truth social post, the prosecutors are logging those for inconsistencies. So i would imagine the first thing his lawyers tell him and that he routinely disregards is to stop talking. But i also think they need to tell him this is serious. This indictment, these charges about conspiring with others to overturn the results of the president ial election are incredibly serious. And that he needs to in turn take them seriously and be more disciplined in his messaging and really listen to his attorneys. But again, based on past experience, its not clear he will heed that advice. And chuck, it does seem like the legal argument thats likely to be his defense is this First Amendment argument, which we have heard from john, who is going to be there, it appears, with him today in this courtroom and perhaps representing him moving forward in this case. Is that his best and only argument, or what other defenses are there . Well, that First Amendment defense is a political defense. Its not a Legal Defense. It wont succeed in court. It has no merit. Heres why. Speech thats designed to commit a fraud, speech designed to commit a crime, is not First Amendment protected. Nor could it be. If i asked you, your colleagues, i asked you to destroy documents in response to a grand jury subpoena, that speech is not protected First Amendment speech. So lets put that aside. There are other defenses. There are in perfect defenses one of them might be advice of counsel, that mr. Trump believed he won the election because some people told him so. And believed that he could convince states to submit alternate slates of electors because some people told him so. The problem is a lot of people told him the other thing. And the people who told him he could do these other things, these illegal things, to try to steal back the election, theyre largely unindicted coconspirators. They were breaking the law too. They were breaking the law too. One of the prerequisites of asserting advice of counsel defense is not only that you tell your lawyer everything and anything candidly, but when you rely on the advice you receive, you rely on it in good faith. Thats going to be a big Stumbling Block for mr. Trump. Andrew, another issue has come up in another case, the maralago case, which is Conflict Of Interest of the Defense Lawyers because we know that walt nautas lawyer used to work for tav allaires, who fired him and hired someone else. Theres a multiplicity of people involved in this, and some of these people could be witnessed and then be crossexamined by their former attorney. We know that jack smith has made an appeal to judge cannon to try to resolve this. Is this something that could, first of all, delay that case further . And is this a legitimate question about some of these Trump Lawyers who have been working among a number of these potential defendants and witnesses . This kind of motion does come up from time to time. Its because somebody who is a defendant awaiting trial, theyre entitled under the Sixth Amendment to the constitution to a right of conflictfree counsel. And when your counsel has represented somebody who is going to be a witness against your current client, but this is a former client, you have a problem because that lawyer cannot crossexamine they cant use obviously anything they learn from their prior client. And they also cant crossexamine and denigrate a prior client. There is a solution to that, which is to make sure that walt nauta understands theres limitations and that another lawyer comes in to do the crossexamination of that witness. That is very often what happens. Here, remember that walt nauta has two counsel. He has a local counsel and he has a nonlocal counsel, so there is the ability to have the exact same team on the case. It could, if he does bring in another conflictfree lawyer, it could delay the case, if that happens. But again, this procedure is not that uncommon, and it is done to make sure that the defendant has conflictfree Sixth Amendment counsel defending him in a criminal case. Kristen welker, in addition to his legal team, who is in his inner circle these days . His wife Melania Trump is not traveling with him, as she has not previously for these indictments. We have not seen his daughter ivanka trump, who was a Senior Adviser inside the white house. Her husband, jared, also served inside the white house. Who is close around donald trump . What do we know about who is talking to him, who has his ear right now, in addition to his legal team, as he navigates this very complex and very serious set of legal problems . Its such an interesting question. We know the people who were public facing, steve chong, for example, his spokesperson, jason miller, but then of course, there are some of those who served with him in his administration, with whom he still talks. Now, those are people who, for example, are not necessarily the public facing people, but people who were with him during the 2016 campaign, for example. Who are still on the phone with him, still advising him. And so he still has this close circle of trusted people around him. The question is, of those, who are the people who can really say to him, heres the truth of the matter, i want to give you the hard facts about, for example, the fact that were potentially bracing for a third indictment before they had this indictment coming down the line. Thats still a big question mark. I think that is going to be the question moving forward as he gets deeper and deeper into this campaign. As we have been talking about, look, with each passing months, youre going to start seeing these court cases and court dates dovetail with key dates on the campaign trail. And thats where this becomes really complicated and really interesting from a political standpoint, chris. Aaron, peter, kristen, andrea, krisny, and chuck, thanks to all of you. Still ahead, why some of Donald Trumps closest contenders take him on. Former republican governor of arkansas and 2024 president ial candidate Asa Hutchinson is one of the exceptions. He joins us next. Youre watching Special Coverage of the indictment of donald trump right here on msnbc. To severe Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms. With my Psoriatic Arthritis symptoms. But just ok isnt ok. And i was done settling. If you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. Rinvoq is a oncedaily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. It can stop joint damage. And in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. 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I want the American People to know i had no right to overturn the election. And that on that day, President Trump asked me to put him over the constitution. But i chose the constitution. And i always will. The vast majority of the republican candidates have been a lot more muted. Joining us now is a republican candidate who has nots been muted. Hes called the latest indictment of the former president a defining moment for the Republican Party. Former arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson, welcome. We wanted to talk to you, first of all, to talk to some of the other candidates, but you have stood alone with Chris Christie and will hurd perhaps in ignoring the polls. First, why do you think this is a defining moment . Does it change anything for the race, do you think . And how can you continue this way and ignore the polls and risk not being able to actually get on the stages and play a major part in this debate . Well, the polls are real. Donald trumps strength is a realistic proposition we all have to face. We also have to look at the country and whenever you look at whats a common appearance in court today going in for an arraignment is an extraordinary time for our country. And theres a choice here, do you support the rule of law and accountability or do you support donald trump and support the chaos that he brings and a disregard for the rule of law . Those are the serious issues that we face as a country but also as a party. So yes, im going against the grain. I hope that, and i believe firmly, that the Republican Party and the base will understand that donald trump had misled them, from day one he knew he had lost the election. But yet he continued to fight that, he continued to try to overthrow the election, which harmed our democracy, and he continues to mislead to today. And that fact should disqualify him from being president. Thats all at stake before the Republican Party. It is about the rule of law, about our justice system. While its flawed, lets make corrections in it, but also lets make sure we hold our officials accountable when they violate the law. Governor hutchinson, nbc spoke with some voters at an event for you yesterday. These are people who are taking this indictment seriously. They tell nbc news they are worried that this growing legal circus so to speak that trump is embroiled in is actually boosted him politically. Take a listen. Every time we see a new indictment, we see a new excitement from his supporters. Its kind of abominal. And that worries me very much. Do you agree and is that a problem . Sure, its a problem. And this voter is recognizing the reality, but shes also saying its worrisome. So lets reevaluate this. Were still six months away from the voting. And theres going to be a debate thats coming up that i want to participate in. I anticipate being there. And were going to be able to raise these issues. And people are going to reevaluate who is going to be the leader of our country, who is going to be the leader of our party. I think common sense is going to prevail, and the rule of law is going to prevail. A lot of Public Relations here but it ends up in the court of law and facts makes a difference. Respectfully, do facts make a difference with Republican Voters . Because theres some new polling from cnn that 69 of republicans say bidens win was not legitimate. And that number has actually gone up since june. Or since may. 63 in may, 69 in july. These are people who have had access to the facts and to the truth. And they are choosing to believe trump. Its problematic. I mean, i dont deny that there is a loyal following of donald trump, but i also know that, and i listen to them every day, i was in new hampshire, im going to be in iowa tonight, and people are understanding that there should be an alternative, that these are serious charges. And as the facts come out, theyre going to listen to them. So thats why you fight the battle. You just have one choice. You either coronate donald trump and say hes going to be the nominee of the party, you get in there and fight. You try to speak the truth. Thats what myself is doing as well as others. Thats the nature of where we are. And if your audience wants to help me get on the debate stage, its asa2024. Com. I have to have 40,000 different donors, and 1 accounts, but thats what helps raise the issue and change the dynamics in the debate that well be having coming up in august. So lets talk a little bit about the debate. Clearly, what we have seen so far from you, from Chris Christie, from will hurd, from folks who have suggested hes not electable like nikki haley, that has not resonated yet with Republican Voters. In fact, you probably saw that the former president put on truth social today that all he needs is another indictment, a fourth indictment, and then hell secure the nomination. What is going to happen on that debate stage that could change the trajectory here or at least start to, and ill also give you an opportunity to say realistically, what the chances are that youll make that debate stage . We intend to make the debate stage. We have increased by 10,000 donors over the last couple weeks. Thats a big step forward. But its all dependent upon your audience and others that can help us out to get there. But what will happen on that debate stage is, one, a contrast between donald trump and the way he leads and the way he creates chaos and those that want to be serious leaders. I think people recognize these are serious times that we face. Both economically with our debt, with the International Challenges that the United States faces. Were strained as a country, and it takes serious leaders. Whos going to lead our country . Is it going to be somebody under three different indictments that we dont know the outcome of those . As voting starts occurring. Right now, people understand and believe that the department of justice has acted unfairly, but we have to be able to convince them that our leadership, serious leaders, will be more effective than the chaos that donald trump has brought us. Former arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson, thank you for offering your perspective on this and taking the time with us this afternoon. Up next, where is mark meadows and who in trumps circle could be cooperating . Youre watching Special Coverage of the third indictment of donald trump right here on msnbc. Their meats fresh. Thats why soccer pros like me profer the grand slam ham. And this rookie prefers fresh sliced turkey. Perfect for when youre subbed out of the game. And if we profer it, we know youll prefer it too. 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Meadows as white house Chief Of Staff was often right by trumps side during key moments in 2020, leading up to and on january 6th. But ever since that day, meadows has been largely out of sight. Hes refused to comment on the investigation. And so lets dive into this with nbc chief Legal Correspondent and anchor of nbcs the beat, ari melber. I want to play what meadows said just last week when asked about january 6th and this investigation. Listen. Have you testified before the grand jury . You know, i dont talk about anything. Do you feel like its appropriate that the investigation im not commenting on anything that relates to the president running or january 6th. Have you spoken to Cassidy Hutchinson . I dont comment on anything on january 6th, guys. Lots of no comments. What does that response and the fact that he is not named as a coconspirator in the Indictment Signal to you . Yeah, he doesnt appear to be any of the six coconspirators. Many are identifiable as you alluded to. Mr. Meadows is a key figure in this. He was at the total epicenter of all of the plots, some of them pursued, some of them not. We know from the january 6th Committee Investigation some of the message he received and sent. So hes a key witness no matter what. He could be a star witness. All we know, if you want to be as careful as possible, is that this indictment doesnt view him as a coconspirator. We dont know why. We dont know whether that involves cooperation and or whether a superseding or later set of indictments could change his legal status. If you want to go beyond the most careful reading and look at the evidence and the signals, it appears the Special Counsel has some cooperating witnesses who were in the room. Thats a small list of people, mr. Meadows is on it, and hes someone we might think could be one of those individuals. And of course, Chris Christie, a former prosecutor for six years, said when he looked at the first clip, he thought that it indicated that mark meadows who has every right to talk about his own testimony in front of the grand jury as any witness does, might be cooperating. His name does come up in the indictment, though, as you know, paragraph 28, it alleges that meadows advised donald trump in late December 2020 that georgia officials reviewing Ballots Signatures were doing their jobs honorably and only had to be contradicted by Donald Trumps tweets. Does this sort of detail point to the fact that meadows is potentially a witness . Yes, definitely potentially a witness and definitely tied to those things. I guess if were asking the investigative question, as both of you have alluded to, hes in the rooms where it happened and theres material that suggests that he was either at times pushing back or was not in agreement with the object of the conspiracy. Of course, we also have texts where hes sort of passing things along and hes the ultimate switchboard, which is why he has this kind of, if you remember in t2, where the villain sort of turns into that sort of liquid metal and reconstitutes into different people, thats him legally because hes sort of at one point hes passing Conspiracy Theories and the other point, hes saying no, boss, we cant say that. Thats not true, or thats not going to go anywhere. Well, is he both things . Is he both things at once . Thats a kind of physical question, but for the legal purposes, yes, as you alluded to, there are things in the indictment that suggest he is helpful to the governments case. So to put it simply, bad for trump. Now, i want to be clear, investigative wise, it could be that they have meadows saying that because he told them, it could be that they have at times other contemporaneous notes, whether he wanted them to get out or not, and it could be from other people. But everything written there, including what you just put on the screen, is something the Special Counsels office is confident they can prove in open court. I have this thinking that every time i see mark meadows im going to get a different visual that involves melting. Let me move on to other folks who have been very faithful to donald trump. Axios reports that trumps new Legal Defense fund for aides and employees may double as both an active benevolence and a potential Insurance Policy against a practice he has long loathed, flipping. There have been a lot of conversations about who is paying for various defendants, the legality of paying for various defendants, and then you have this question about whether or not its an Insurance Policy for donald trump. Weigh in on that . It certainly looks that way. In fairness to the defendant, he is both legally presumed innocent and free to fund his own counsel and others. Theres nothing that were inferring automatically negative about that. He can do that. On the other hand, we have our eyes open in the real world here. Donald trump has gotten in trouble repeatedly for not paying his own lawyers, for his own defense. Along with stiffing other people. We have had some of those individuals tell their stories on this very network. Hes not known as a particularly generous person when it comes to paying lawyers. Now you have this attitude of paying other peoples lawyers, so is that just a newfound benevolence and more likely is that outlet part of a strategy here . That is to try to incent cooperation with people . Theres also a huge power dynamic mismatch in the other Special Counsel smith case, the classified documents case, because those are much more junior people. Were all watching to see whether the coalition, so to speak, holds. I keep thinking about how much detail is in this indictment, because its such a narrative, and there are so many quotes. It gets so granular in some of the scenes that it describes. Does anything else in this Indictment Signal to you that there are others who could have some legal peril now are cooperating witnesses . You know, i cant say, and we cant sort of confirm or report that, but i think the premise of your question checks out. Theres some stuff in there that we all recognize from what played out in public and what the January 6th Committee found. Then theres other levels of detail, im not saying the level of cooperation, but just examples of pence describing calls that only he and trump or perhaps one or two people in the room would know. We have details there in the last couple pages where they talk about trump seeming to be positive about what happened on the sixth from someone in the room. Those people are talking. The reasons we dont yet know. Ari melber who well see a lot for the rest of the afternoon and into the evening. Still ahead, will former President Trump see more recordbreaking fundraising numbers in the wake of this indictment . 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Email inboxes across the country are blowing up with fundraising solicitations from donald trump. Today marked at least eight fundraising emails sent from the former president s Fundraising Committee since tuesdays indictment. And his campaign has used the two previous indictments to push for major boosts in contributions. His single Largest Online fundraising day of his campaign so far was april 4th, that was the day he was arraigned in manhattan on charges of allegedly making Hush Money Payments to stormy daniels. He raised nearly 4 million. Two months later, another spike followed his indictment on federal charges for his handling of classified documents. But his total on the day he was arraigned in florida was just 1. 3 million. Less than half the haul that followed his first arraignment. Will the trend of diminishing returns continue this time or will his supporters once again rally to his side in Record Numbers . I want to bring in robert gibbs, former White House Press secretary in the obama white house, and msnbc political analyst, and tim miller, the former Communications Director for jeb bushs 2016 campaign, a writer at large for the bulwark, also an msnbc political analyst, and sabrina siddiqui, reporter for the wall street journal. Robert, i wonder what you make of these numbers, maybe diminishing returns. We have seen polls go in the opposite direction. We saw donald trump say today all i need is a fourth indictment to get me over the top for my election. But i wonder if these financial numbers tell a story. Is there only so many times you can go to the well . Well, i absolutely think there is. Look, each individual person has a limit to what they can give to a political candidate. So there are certainly limits. It will be interesting to see whether the scope and the magnitude of todays indictment, how that impacts this. But we also have to understand, too, even for as much as hes raising, we now know from reports this week just how much money is going out the door to pay lawyers. And i cant imagine that those billable hours are doing anything but expanding. Theyre not staying equal, certainly not diminishing. You have a new indictment today, a presumed future indictment in georgia. Hes got to raise tens of millions of dollars not just to pay lawyers but ultimately to fund his campaign. So i think theres some real economic challenges that donald trump has Going Forward as it relates to both these indictments and his political future. And as we see a plane over the skyline here. Over Reagan National airport, that, of course, is trump one, as they call it. That is the plane, the 737, he is landing at the airport. And from there, its only about 15 minutes once he disembarks to get here to just the neighborhood of the courthouse, were two blocks away. Tim miller, one potential warning sign for donald trump does come from the key state of iowa where the Des Moines Register is reporting Top Republicans including of course governor kim reynolds who is enormously popular there, are staying silent rather than coming to his defense as they had after previous indictments. This one seems to be different. You know iowa so well. How much of a red flag could this be for the Trump Campaign . Well, i think its a little bit of a red flag. I think the way hes shunned kim reynolds is probably a mistake on balance. I think you remember he lost iowa to ted cruz in 2016. I think there are a couple of candidates, desantis, tim scott, ramaswami, who probably all could put together a ted cruz style coalition. Even if that is a red flag, donald trump then moves on to a bunch of states that are much more favorable to him. What we have seen from the national Republican Party is people rallying to his defense. Even if iowa does go in another direction, he has a ton of other options. Hes right now winning in a landslide nationally, and i expected horrible behavior from the National Republicans coming to his defense and giving him air cover on this, but they have been even worse than i anticipated. People that were saying the right things after january 6th about how we need to move on from trump are now over on fox defending him. Even the quasisupposedly more Old Guard Republicans like lindsey graham, macko rubio, tom cotton are all defending him and advancing this message that the doj is somehow targeting republicans, which is absurd. I think the iowa thing is a bit of a red flag, but he has a lot of other outs. You said that even the republican candidates that hes running against have largely been kind of tiptoeing around, attacking trump. We are seeing a stronger mike pence in terms of the blowback against trump in the wake of this indictment. And we all have been drawn to one of the scenes that were painted between December 25th and january 6th after trump came after pence, multiple, multiple, multiple times to try to convince him to subvert the election here in his favor. And he eventually tells pence, youre too honest. And now pence is trying to fundraise off that. Hes got merchandise that says, too honest, on it. Do you think thats going to help him with republicans . I dont know if this is for me or sabrina. Back to you, tim. Sorry, sabrina. I have a question for you next, for sure. I will tell you this. I dont think its are you ready for this for alarming . The New York Times sienna poll this past week, i wrote about it for the bulwark, mike pence is under water with Republican Voters. More Republican Voters dislike him than like him. Robert f. Kennedy jr. , on the other hand, the vaccine conspiracist democrat, Republican Voters love him. Theyre plus 30, so robert f. Kennedy jr. Is more popular with republican primary voters than the former Vice President. The only thing mike pence has done to earn that unfavorability is stand up to donald trump one time, one day over this coup, so good for him for being honest and putting out that tshirt, but no, i dont see it helping him much in the primary. Sabrina k i come to you now . As we continue to watch these pictures, live images of trump landing here in d. C. , as he gets ready to have that arraignment, which is now just about an hour away. You have been covering the biden white house, and we havent heard much from the white house on the trump indictment, especially from the current president. Do you think thats going to change at all . Not really. Its actually a deliberate move on the part of the white house, and when i have spoken to white house officials on this subject, they often point out that President Biden specifically campaigned to restore integrity to the Justice Department and was very clear that he would not weigh in on an Ongoing Investigation, and they are very mindful of giving any credence to the idea that theyre interfering with an Ongoing Investigation or that this is somehow politically motivated. And there is a sense if President Biden were to come out and more forcefully condemn former President Trump who is also the frontrunner for the republican nomination, then that would only animate trump and his supporters as they try and frame this as some falsely frame this as some kind of a witch hunts. What they are doing, and this is something the Biden Campaign has spoken to as well, is making this broader case about maga extremism. And implicitly, theyre talking about trump and his impact on the Republican Party. You often hear President Biden speak about the threat to democracy, you know, the same rhetoric around this battle for the soul of the nation, attacking on Voting Rights and election integrity. Thats the way in which they are referring to what is at the heart of this, efforts to overturn an election, but they will also extend that argument about maga extremism to other issues they believe are more salient to the general electorate, such as the economy and Social Security programs, such as access to abortion and just to try to paint a broader picture of the way in which the Republican Party has changed and moved significantly further to the right under trumps watch, but really not expecting much to change in their strategy of not wanting to weigh in on the indictments or former President Trump himself. Folks have seen the cameras went away and moved away from the picture. We have gotten the back now. For folks who dont know and we have lived this, sabrina and andrea and i, when have all worked at the white house, what a pool is, and then you have a group of reporters who are with donald trump. We have been told because of the way this setup is at the courthouse, that hes going to be going in essentially underground. Hell be coming back out underground. There are no cameras inside. Youll remember the first time we saw some pictures of him in a hallway. That is not going to happen this time. This may be an opportunity for us to hear from donald trump, either going toward the courthouse because he still has an hour before he needs to be there, my understanding is, but also potentially on the way back. There you see the suvs that are pulling up there for donald trump to deplane and get into those cars and make the short drive to the federal courthouse that is just a short way away from where we are. And as were watching these pictures, robert, yesterday, the Trump Campaign sent out another fundraising email. And one of the things it said, and it showed you the preparation of their fundraising because within literally minutes of the announcement, the official announcement of the indictment, bringing down of the indictment, these emails went out. But he said that theyre trying to give him 561 years in prison, suggesting that with all of the charges against him and the maximum, he could go to prison for a very long time. Do you think, robert, that in some ways that 2024 election is now a referendum on donald trump, his honesty, and whether or not he should remain a free man . Oh, absolutely. I dont think anybody is under the impression that if he were to be elected he wouldnt do everything in his power to bring these cases to an end if they havent already beenadjudicated or to start to figure out some way around having to serve or to be thought of as guilty. No doubt about that. I think in many ways its going to be a bit of a test i think between these two candidates, to sort of who does the country think is less chaotic, who do they think is less risky . And i think thats the frame that this thing is going to play on. I think we have all too often thought of the 24 election as an economic election and we want Approval Ratings and economic Approval Ratings. I think in reality, that may be the old way of looking at these races. I dont think its 1992 anymore. I think its just a much different race, and i think donald trump is definitely running for his freedom and his life to stay out of jail. Robert, is there any way quickly to predict how voters are going to react to this indictment . We havent seen any polling yet. No, look, you know, your head tells you that at some point the wagon might break for too many bricks on the load. Yet time after time, we have seen just the opposite. I mean, in reality, donald trump was at his weakest point right after the 2022 elections. He got in the race early to sort of set the tone. He took the attack to ron desantis, and then we have seen in the previous indictments that hes gotten stronger and stronger. Far stronger now than he was six months ago. So your head tells you that it might change, the totality of the indictment tells you it might change. I think the reality of it is it probably wont. Were a very, very polarized country. Robert gibbs, tim miller, sabrina siddiqui, thanks to all of you. We see the doodoors open but we going to take a quick break. Our Special Report will be right back. fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. 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Do the aerotrainer super crunch, push ups, aero squat. It inflates in 30 seconds. Aerotrainer is tested to support over 500 pounds. Lose weight, look great, and be healthy. Go to aerotrainer. Com. Thats aero trainer. Com. Welcome back to msnbcs Special Coverage of Donald Trumps arraignment on federal charges here in washington, d. C. Just moments ago, trumps plane landed at Reagan National airport. Within the hour we expect to see the former president surrender to authorities at the courthouse near the corner of constitution and pennsylvania avenues. Just blocks from where he once lived in the white house. And not far from the capitol, where the horror of the january 6th attack unfolded. We see him now, live pictures of former President Donald Trump coming for his third arraignment in four months. He will be booked and fingerprints once he gets to the courthouse by u. S. Marshals just like any other american citizen accused of committing a crime. Shortly rw