Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704 : comparemela.com

She had not appointed that January 6th Committee. So true. This begins with that very difficult and somewhat controversial decision to move forward without the candidates that Kevin Mccarthy wanted on that committee, and the work that they did laid the foundation of where we are today. Im really eager to hear how she did it and how she made it work so well. Gonna be a great show. Thanks, alex. Well, yesterday, as i began reading the newest indictment of donald trump, i wondered if this indictment would exist without nancy pelosi. The roadmap for the conspiracies described in this indictment was provided to the Justice Department by nancy pelosi through the work of the January 6th Committee that she created. On the darkest day in the history of american president ial transitions of power, january 6th, 2021, america was lucky. That nancy pelosi was Speaker Of The House. As trumps attackers of the capitol were trying to find her, she was rushed from the building, along with other democratic and republican members of the congressional leadership. The next day, she began planning the second impeachment of donald trump, for inciting an insurrection at the capitol. 57 senators voted to convict donald trump, including seven republicans, but that was not enough to reach the two thirds of 67 for conviction required by the constitution. Nancy pelosi did not stop at impeachment. She appointed a special January 6th Committee to investigate everything that donald trump and his associates did leading up to and on january 6th, to try to overthrow the president ial election and overthrow american democracy in the process. Each member of that committee was chosen by speaker pelosi, including the two republican members. They conducted a ten month investigation, relying heavily on a highly experienced investigative staff, before making their first evening primetime nationally televised presentation of evidence to the nation. They obtained massive amounts of information using subpoenas, some other subpoenas to republican officials were ignored. They recommended steve bannon for prosecution for ignoring the subpoena, and merrick Garlands Department convicted steve bannon for contempt of congress. He has not yet been sentenced, pending his appeal of that conviction. People who were eager to know the truth criticized the committee for moving too slowly. There was much public doubt about what the committee could accomplish with some of their subpoenas being ignored, and republicans like mike pence refusing to cooperate with the committee in any way. I shared much of that doubt myself. Congressional investigative committees are notoriously bad at investigating. No one runs for the house or senate saying i will be the best investigator in the building. Some of them have previous experience as federal prosecutors, but they never have investigative tools as powerful as the tools available to federal prosecutors, like jack smith. Congressional investigative committees are often plagued by egomania when the cameras are on them, with every member wanting to make the most of their five or ten minutes on camera. Nancy pelosi eliminated all of those built in defects to congressional investigative committees by choosing the specific members she chose, who all realize that the work of their committee was much more important than any attention they might get for their service on the committee. It is impossible for me to exaggerate my personal shock at the discovery that not every member of the January 6th Committee would get to speak in every one of the hearings. That is the very point of being on a televised committee, to get your star turn on television every time. In most of the committees public meetings, most of the members of the committee did not speak. And public presentations by the committee were simply the best in the history of congressional committees. And again, that was thanks entirely to the design of the committee as well as the supremely thorough work done by the Committee Staff and the members in preparation for every public presentation. And it is thanks to the work of the January 6th Committee, that the indictment we read yesterday felt like something we have read before, the report of the January 6th Committee, very importantly jack smiths indictment of donald trump has more details than the January 6th Committee was able to discover, because a federal prosecutors Subpoena Power is much more immediately effective and enforceable then congressional Subpoena Power. Mike pence, who refused to speak to January 6th Committee, was subpoenaed to speak to jack smiths grand jury, and mike pence did not just show up to testify, he also issued a subpoena to hand over he obeyed subpoenaed turnovers notes to mike smith whos refers to mike pences notes in the indictment. Jack smith didnt have to do that. When describing a December 29th Conversation between then President Donald Trump and Vice President mike pence, jack smith did not have to include the phrase, as reflected in the Vice President s contemporareous notes. Jack smith referred to the president s annexed can brainiacs notes more than once in the indictment to make it very clear to donald trump right now what he is up against in this case and to make it clear to the American People how solid the prosecutions evidence ears in this case. Donald trump was eventually going to discover, through the Legal Discovery process of evidence, that mike pence took notes of trumps conversations, and the prosecution has those notes. The indictment clearly implies that everything that appears in Quotation Marks and trumps conversations with mike pence comes from pences notes, including the line you are too honest. As i emphasized here last night, trump saying you are too honest to mike pence is gonna be the headline of the trump trial coverage the day mike pence raises his right hand to take an oath as a witness to tell the truth about donald trump. That is the day mike pence will tell a jury in a criminal trial in washington, d. C. , that on january 1st, 20120, astonished when he won, when you told donald trump, once again, and the Vice President did not have, quote, the authority to reject a return votes to the states under the constitution. The defendant told the president , the Vice President , you are too honest. Everything the jack smith needs to prove, under the laws cited in the indictment, is in that exchange. There is the president United States trying to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiring to defraud the United States. That exchange contains non trumps knowledge of the what mike pence said to him as true. The Vice President has no authority to reject electoral votes. That exchange contains what appears to be proof beyond reasonable doubt that donald trump knew that he was lying about the Vice President s authority and he was lying to mike pence about the Vice President s authority. That exchange contains proof of Donald Trumps two state of mind. And yet another attempt by donald trump to obstruct an official proceeding. Some of the most compelling testimony presented by the january Six Committee is not part of this indictment at all, including this conversation between Cassidy Hutchinson and white house Chief Of Staff mike meadows. Driving back to the white house, i remember does the president really think he lost . And he said a lot of times hell tell me that he lost, but he wants to keep fighting it. He thinks there might be enough to overturn the election, but he has pretty much acknowledged that he has lost. Youre not gonna see testimony like that at the trial. The January 6th Committee was able to present evidence publicly like that that might not even be admissible in the trial, that might be hearsay, for example. The January 6th Committee was able to allow witnesses to tell a narrative story in a way that made clear sense to an audience without being peppered by questions and lawyers objections. In the areas where the January 6th Committees Presentation Overlaps with what will be the criminal trial in this case the January 6th Committees presentation is probably more clear and more human and more compelling than what we might hear in court. Here is a piece of evidence developed by the January 6th Committee that does appear in the indictment as an indication that donald trump knew that he lost the election. So, were in the oval, a new discussion going on. And the president says, i think, it couldve been pompeo but he says words to the effect, yeah, were gonna let that issue go to the next guy. Meaning president biden. America was ready for this indictment unable to understand the credibility of most of what is in this indictment, thanks to the work of the January 6th Committee. When the capitol was under attack on january 6th, the Speaker Of The House got word that the president wanted to come to the capitol. They say they dissuaded him from coming to the capitol. They told him we dont have the resources to protect them here. So, for the moment, he is not coming. But that could change. If he comes amid a punch him out. Ive been waiting for this, for trespassing on the capitol grounds. Im gonna punch him out, and i will go to jail, and i will be happy. Shes not going to jail, and hes now indicted for what he did that day. Joining us now, speaker nancy pelosi. It is an honor to have you with us tonight. I have to tell you, that is soon as i started reading that indictment yesterday, i started thinking about you, and i started thinking about that decision that you made to establish that January 6th Committee, to appoint exactly who you appointed, and i was left wondering, if we would be here tonight if you hadnt made those decisions. Well, thank you, i listen to your presentation with great emotions, with great pride in the work of the January 6th Committee. The leadership of benny thompson, chairman bennie thompson, mississippi, vice chair of the committee, liz cheney of wyoming, they were great leaders of the committee. But every member made his or her contribution with patriotism and excellence. To your point, they werent there to perform. They were there to be patriotic, to seek and find the troops. It wasnt an easy path to get there. People said to me, youre taking a real risk. And i said no, we know what were doing. We had really, we were striving to have the outside commission, a bipartisan commission. We had offered equal staffing, equal payroll, equal Subpoena Power, everything, to the republicans. In the senate, they thought they had the votes, but in fact, unfortunately, Mitch Mcconnell went around to the senators and said do me a personal favor, dont vote for this. And they thought they had 13 votes and it ended up being six. One person was absent, so maybe wouldve been seven. But what was interesting about it is people said to mitch at the time, you dont think nancys gonna let this go away . And why would he saying that . He already had a vote in the house for bipartisan commission, they wouldnt accept it, we then voted to do our own committee in the house. It was about the respect, thinking about our founders on what they had in mind for this country, this democracy. Not a king, not a monarch, but a democracy, a separation of power and a peaceful transfer of power. It was about our men and women in uniform, who fight for freedom, for our country, for our democracy, and for other democracies as well. And that principle was at stake. And always, its about the children and the future and the country that they will live in, that it would be clear that there would be clarity, that our democracy was based on our constitution, we take an oath to protect and defend it. So, i give credit to the committee members. They were courageous. You have no idea the heat that they received. But they were patriotic and they wanted to get the job done. So, to your point, they built a foundation of facts, a foundation of facts built on, in relationship to the law. The facts and the law in the rule of law. And they had nine public hearings, and, yes we wanted the narrative to be clear, and so, there were decisions that had to be made. And our members were part of those decisions. Can i ask you speaker, about those decisions, because, like you, i have seen more congressional hearings, house and senate, then i can remember or count. I have never seen such discipline. Ive never seen such clarity of presentation. I have never seen a more flawless delivery of compelling information to the public. The hearing was about, from where i was sitting, public comprehension. It was not ever about members needing attention or members exercising their egos. And the whole time i was watching that, tell me if im wrong, but i was crediting you with the discipline that i saw imposed on that committee. Lawrence, the fact is we made a decision that we were going to have the clarity, the purpose, the clarity of message, and the respect for the facts and the truth. Once you make the decision, then you have to make every decision in favor of reaching that goal, and we did. Our members cooperated. We had nine hearings, nine members, each one took a major part of each hearing, so that we didnt have 30 members taking five minutes, and as you said before, i was not going to have that. I think my members knew i was not gonna have that. But not just me. It was a consensus. We always build things by consensus. So, when we made that decision and the excellence of the staff, the staff was superb, and the collection of data, the depositions, the investigation, all of it was superb. And then we did have some professional help as to how to have timing and the rest as we went forward. But the important thing to note is, this was our honoring our Oath Of Office to protect and defend the constitution. There was no room for any, shall we say, ego boost or whatever else. Some of us might enjoy in the course of the hearing. It wise very disciplined. You have to have discipline if youre going to be effective and get the job done. Again, a collection of facts. Remember, most of the people, except i think for one witness, were republicans. The people who testified, who gave this information, who provided the truth, many of them appointed by donald trump. Many of them appointed by donald trump. And so, this was heavy. And we had nine hearings, 70 witnesses, overwhelmingly except for maybe one, appointed by trump or a republican and then in the founder of 2021, excuse me, 2022 the committee came together to give its final report, last december, and called for charges to be made against the president. Nothing happened for a while. I was calm, because i thought well, if i were the attorney genera, l i would want to collect the facts myself, build upon this in a way that is different from a congressional hearing. So, i wasnt too apprehensive about what was happening. But i was awfully glad, and so were our members because they knew the evidence. They knew the law. And they knew that charges should be brought, because no one is above the law. Not the president of the United States, not anyone. So people say, oh, this will cause a fuss if you take him to court. Well, he is not above the law. So, cause a fuss, okay . And thats what the Attorney General kept saying. The more Merrick Garland would say no one is above the law, the more i came to believe that he was willing to investigate the president. When you go back to january 6th, as we just took you for a moment with that video that your daughter shot that day where you were in the thick of that emotion of that moment ready to punch the president as United States and get dragged down to that courthouse and arraigned for it. Tomorrow, the former president United States is going to be arraigned in the courthouse that you were thinking about that day on january 6th. How does that feel for you . Heartbreaking, because the president United States did not have the respect for the office that he held. Heartbreaking for the fact that some people in our country still believe him. And i respect their point of view. I dont respect the members of congress who were on under threat that night. I thought i was gonna get a bullet in the hand and the Vice President and he was gonna get strangled or whatever, hung. They were all under threat, and many of them scared of what what might happen. Some of us had, i had my security, so i wasnt particularly worried about myself. I could see on tv that they were shouting my name and coming after me and all that. It was incited by the president United States, but i was more concerned about the January 6th Committee<\/a>. So true. This begins with that very difficult and somewhat controversial decision to move forward without the candidates that Kevin Mccarthy<\/a> wanted on that committee, and the work that they did laid the foundation of where we are today. Im really eager to hear how she did it and how she made it work so well. Gonna be a great show. Thanks, alex. Well, yesterday, as i began reading the newest indictment of donald trump, i wondered if this indictment would exist without nancy pelosi. The roadmap for the conspiracies described in this indictment was provided to the Justice Department<\/a> by nancy pelosi through the work of the January 6th Committee<\/a> that she created. On the darkest day in the history of american president ial transitions of power, january 6th, 2021, america was lucky. That nancy pelosi was Speaker Of The House<\/a>. As trumps attackers of the capitol were trying to find her, she was rushed from the building, along with other democratic and republican members of the congressional leadership. The next day, she began planning the second impeachment of donald trump, for inciting an insurrection at the capitol. 57 senators voted to convict donald trump, including seven republicans, but that was not enough to reach the two thirds of 67 for conviction required by the constitution. Nancy pelosi did not stop at impeachment. She appointed a special January 6th Committee<\/a> to investigate everything that donald trump and his associates did leading up to and on january 6th, to try to overthrow the president ial election and overthrow american democracy in the process. Each member of that committee was chosen by speaker pelosi, including the two republican members. They conducted a ten month investigation, relying heavily on a highly experienced investigative staff, before making their first evening primetime nationally televised presentation of evidence to the nation. They obtained massive amounts of information using subpoenas, some other subpoenas to republican officials were ignored. They recommended steve bannon for prosecution for ignoring the subpoena, and merrick Garlands Department<\/a> convicted steve bannon for contempt of congress. He has not yet been sentenced, pending his appeal of that conviction. People who were eager to know the truth criticized the committee for moving too slowly. There was much public doubt about what the committee could accomplish with some of their subpoenas being ignored, and republicans like mike pence refusing to cooperate with the committee in any way. I shared much of that doubt myself. Congressional investigative committees are notoriously bad at investigating. No one runs for the house or senate saying i will be the best investigator in the building. Some of them have previous experience as federal prosecutors, but they never have investigative tools as powerful as the tools available to federal prosecutors, like jack smith. Congressional investigative committees are often plagued by egomania when the cameras are on them, with every member wanting to make the most of their five or ten minutes on camera. Nancy pelosi eliminated all of those built in defects to congressional investigative committees by choosing the specific members she chose, who all realize that the work of their committee was much more important than any attention they might get for their service on the committee. It is impossible for me to exaggerate my personal shock at the discovery that not every member of the January 6th Committee<\/a> would get to speak in every one of the hearings. That is the very point of being on a televised committee, to get your star turn on television every time. In most of the committees public meetings, most of the members of the committee did not speak. And public presentations by the committee were simply the best in the history of congressional committees. And again, that was thanks entirely to the design of the committee as well as the supremely thorough work done by the Committee Staff<\/a> and the members in preparation for every public presentation. And it is thanks to the work of the January 6th Committee<\/a>, that the indictment we read yesterday felt like something we have read before, the report of the January 6th Committee<\/a>, very importantly jack smiths indictment of donald trump has more details than the January 6th Committee<\/a> was able to discover, because a federal prosecutors Subpoena Power<\/a> is much more immediately effective and enforceable then congressional Subpoena Power<\/a>. Mike pence, who refused to speak to January 6th Committee<\/a>, was subpoenaed to speak to jack smiths grand jury, and mike pence did not just show up to testify, he also issued a subpoena to hand over he obeyed subpoenaed turnovers notes to mike smith whos refers to mike pences notes in the indictment. Jack smith didnt have to do that. When describing a December 29th Conversation<\/a> between then President Donald Trump<\/a> and Vice President<\/a> mike pence, jack smith did not have to include the phrase, as reflected in the Vice President<\/a> s contemporareous notes. Jack smith referred to the president s annexed can brainiacs notes more than once in the indictment to make it very clear to donald trump right now what he is up against in this case and to make it clear to the American People<\/a> how solid the prosecutions evidence ears in this case. Donald trump was eventually going to discover, through the Legal Discovery<\/a> process of evidence, that mike pence took notes of trumps conversations, and the prosecution has those notes. The indictment clearly implies that everything that appears in Quotation Marks<\/a> and trumps conversations with mike pence comes from pences notes, including the line you are too honest. As i emphasized here last night, trump saying you are too honest to mike pence is gonna be the headline of the trump trial coverage the day mike pence raises his right hand to take an oath as a witness to tell the truth about donald trump. That is the day mike pence will tell a jury in a criminal trial in washington, d. C. , that on january 1st, 20120, astonished when he won, when you told donald trump, once again, and the Vice President<\/a> did not have, quote, the authority to reject a return votes to the states under the constitution. The defendant told the president , the Vice President<\/a> , you are too honest. Everything the jack smith needs to prove, under the laws cited in the indictment, is in that exchange. There is the president United States<\/a> trying to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiring to defraud the United States<\/a>. That exchange contains non trumps knowledge of the what mike pence said to him as true. The Vice President<\/a> has no authority to reject electoral votes. That exchange contains what appears to be proof beyond reasonable doubt that donald trump knew that he was lying about the Vice President<\/a> s authority and he was lying to mike pence about the Vice President<\/a> s authority. That exchange contains proof of Donald Trumps<\/a> two state of mind. And yet another attempt by donald trump to obstruct an official proceeding. Some of the most compelling testimony presented by the january Six Committee<\/a> is not part of this indictment at all, including this conversation between Cassidy Hutchinson<\/a> and white house Chief Of Staff<\/a> mike meadows. Driving back to the white house, i remember does the president really think he lost . And he said a lot of times hell tell me that he lost, but he wants to keep fighting it. He thinks there might be enough to overturn the election, but he has pretty much acknowledged that he has lost. Youre not gonna see testimony like that at the trial. The January 6th Committee<\/a> was able to present evidence publicly like that that might not even be admissible in the trial, that might be hearsay, for example. The January 6th Committee<\/a> was able to allow witnesses to tell a narrative story in a way that made clear sense to an audience without being peppered by questions and lawyers objections. In the areas where the January 6th Committee<\/a>s Presentation Overlaps<\/a> with what will be the criminal trial in this case the January 6th Committee<\/a>s presentation is probably more clear and more human and more compelling than what we might hear in court. Here is a piece of evidence developed by the January 6th Committee<\/a> that does appear in the indictment as an indication that donald trump knew that he lost the election. So, were in the oval, a new discussion going on. And the president says, i think, it couldve been pompeo but he says words to the effect, yeah, were gonna let that issue go to the next guy. Meaning president biden. America was ready for this indictment unable to understand the credibility of most of what is in this indictment, thanks to the work of the January 6th Committee<\/a>. When the capitol was under attack on january 6th, the Speaker Of The House<\/a> got word that the president wanted to come to the capitol. They say they dissuaded him from coming to the capitol. They told him we dont have the resources to protect them here. So, for the moment, he is not coming. But that could change. If he comes amid a punch him out. Ive been waiting for this, for trespassing on the capitol grounds. Im gonna punch him out, and i will go to jail, and i will be happy. Shes not going to jail, and hes now indicted for what he did that day. Joining us now, speaker nancy pelosi. It is an honor to have you with us tonight. I have to tell you, that is soon as i started reading that indictment yesterday, i started thinking about you, and i started thinking about that decision that you made to establish that January 6th Committee<\/a>, to appoint exactly who you appointed, and i was left wondering, if we would be here tonight if you hadnt made those decisions. Well, thank you, i listen to your presentation with great emotions, with great pride in the work of the January 6th Committee<\/a>. The leadership of benny thompson, chairman bennie thompson, mississippi, vice chair of the committee, liz cheney of wyoming, they were great leaders of the committee. But every member made his or her contribution with patriotism and excellence. To your point, they werent there to perform. They were there to be patriotic, to seek and find the troops. It wasnt an easy path to get there. People said to me, youre taking a real risk. And i said no, we know what were doing. We had really, we were striving to have the outside commission, a bipartisan commission. We had offered equal staffing, equal payroll, equal Subpoena Power<\/a>, everything, to the republicans. In the senate, they thought they had the votes, but in fact, unfortunately, Mitch Mcconnell<\/a> went around to the senators and said do me a personal favor, dont vote for this. And they thought they had 13 votes and it ended up being six. One person was absent, so maybe wouldve been seven. But what was interesting about it is people said to mitch at the time, you dont think nancys gonna let this go away . And why would he saying that . He already had a vote in the house for bipartisan commission, they wouldnt accept it, we then voted to do our own committee in the house. It was about the respect, thinking about our founders on what they had in mind for this country, this democracy. Not a king, not a monarch, but a democracy, a separation of power and a peaceful transfer of power. It was about our men and women in uniform, who fight for freedom, for our country, for our democracy, and for other democracies as well. And that principle was at stake. And always, its about the children and the future and the country that they will live in, that it would be clear that there would be clarity, that our democracy was based on our constitution, we take an oath to protect and defend it. So, i give credit to the committee members. They were courageous. You have no idea the heat that they received. But they were patriotic and they wanted to get the job done. So, to your point, they built a foundation of facts, a foundation of facts built on, in relationship to the law. The facts and the law in the rule of law. And they had nine public hearings, and, yes we wanted the narrative to be clear, and so, there were decisions that had to be made. And our members were part of those decisions. Can i ask you speaker, about those decisions, because, like you, i have seen more congressional hearings, house and senate, then i can remember or count. I have never seen such discipline. Ive never seen such clarity of presentation. I have never seen a more flawless delivery of compelling information to the public. The hearing was about, from where i was sitting, public comprehension. It was not ever about members needing attention or members exercising their egos. And the whole time i was watching that, tell me if im wrong, but i was crediting you with the discipline that i saw imposed on that committee. Lawrence, the fact is we made a decision that we were going to have the clarity, the purpose, the clarity of message, and the respect for the facts and the truth. Once you make the decision, then you have to make every decision in favor of reaching that goal, and we did. Our members cooperated. We had nine hearings, nine members, each one took a major part of each hearing, so that we didnt have 30 members taking five minutes, and as you said before, i was not going to have that. I think my members knew i was not gonna have that. But not just me. It was a consensus. We always build things by consensus. So, when we made that decision and the excellence of the staff, the staff was superb, and the collection of data, the depositions, the investigation, all of it was superb. And then we did have some professional help as to how to have timing and the rest as we went forward. But the important thing to note is, this was our honoring our Oath Of Office<\/a> to protect and defend the constitution. There was no room for any, shall we say, ego boost or whatever else. Some of us might enjoy in the course of the hearing. It wise very disciplined. You have to have discipline if youre going to be effective and get the job done. Again, a collection of facts. Remember, most of the people, except i think for one witness, were republicans. The people who testified, who gave this information, who provided the truth, many of them appointed by donald trump. Many of them appointed by donald trump. And so, this was heavy. And we had nine hearings, 70 witnesses, overwhelmingly except for maybe one, appointed by trump or a republican and then in the founder of 2021, excuse me, 2022 the committee came together to give its final report, last december, and called for charges to be made against the president. Nothing happened for a while. I was calm, because i thought well, if i were the attorney genera, l i would want to collect the facts myself, build upon this in a way that is different from a congressional hearing. So, i wasnt too apprehensive about what was happening. But i was awfully glad, and so were our members because they knew the evidence. They knew the law. And they knew that charges should be brought, because no one is above the law. Not the president of the United States<\/a>, not anyone. So people say, oh, this will cause a fuss if you take him to court. Well, he is not above the law. So, cause a fuss, okay . And thats what the Attorney General<\/a> kept saying. The more Merrick Garland<\/a> would say no one is above the law, the more i came to believe that he was willing to investigate the president. When you go back to january 6th, as we just took you for a moment with that video that your daughter shot that day where you were in the thick of that emotion of that moment ready to punch the president as United States<\/a> and get dragged down to that courthouse and arraigned for it. Tomorrow, the former president United States<\/a> is going to be arraigned in the courthouse that you were thinking about that day on january 6th. How does that feel for you . Heartbreaking, because the president United States<\/a> did not have the respect for the office that he held. Heartbreaking for the fact that some people in our country still believe him. And i respect their point of view. I dont respect the members of congress who were on under threat that night. I thought i was gonna get a bullet in the hand and the Vice President<\/a> and he was gonna get strangled or whatever, hung. They were all under threat, and many of them scared of what what might happen. Some of us had, i had my security, so i wasnt particularly worried about myself. I could see on tv that they were shouting my name and coming after me and all that. It was incited by the president United States<\/a>, but i was more concerned about the Vice President<\/a> , because of what the president , what, clearly, he had in mind. But the thing that i find unforgivable, two things, one, as you know, lawrence, you know this from your own life. Many of the people in the capitol are people who are young and idealistic will come there, maybe theyll serve one day and maybe theyll be part of an issue, as i say when the new members come i said here you are, the fresh recruits, and who among you will will leave here, who will run for Higher Office<\/a> . Who among you could be president United States<\/a> . But in that same arena are the two kids, the volunteers, the interns, all of that, the young staff, and how traumatizing this was to the young staff is something i will never forgive them for. They were terrible to them. They scared them. Theyre out to get to them. And who the custodians who were there to serve the people who visit and serve the members of congress, the press, and all, for them to be treated with such disrespect, it was horrible. It was a horrible thing. But the most horrible part of that was, of course, the trauma it caused for people who didnt have the security i had, and the fact that when we said were going back to the floor and show the world that United States<\/a> of america is gonna have a peaceful transfer of power in this very timeframe, it would not be the day because, it came in the middle of the night, that a majority of the republicans in the house voted against the peaceful transfer of power and followed the lead of their puppeteer as he shines the light on the strings as he orchestrates them. Its so sad for our country. But thats okay, wedont agonize, we just go forward. And now, its in the court of law. Hes innocent until proven guilty. He is not above the law. The facts and the law will determine the outcome, and god bless america. The rule of law is so important. And not only has this president , not going to the particulars because its for others to do, but the fact is, his disrespect for the rule of law is yet another, i mean, you cant charge him for that, i guess, but its a disgraceful part of his performance. So, here we are historically at place in time, the first week in august, for the first time, a president of United States<\/a> has been charged. Tomorrow, he will be arraigned, and largely because of the work of the committee, the January 6th Committee<\/a>, established to investigate what happened leading up to january 6th, again, pretty exciting. Really, an act of courage and patriotism on the part of the members of the committee. I salute them. And the staff, who were superb. And thank you for calling attention to it, as you have. Because the public has to understand the narrative, what happened. And its not okay to say it just would be too messy to go further. No, it isnt. Its very clear and clear cut. We must go forward. Speaker nancy pelosi, thank you very much for joining us tonight. The nation owes you a debt of gratitude for many things, including everything you did to make sure we know the truth about what happened on january 6th. Speaker pelosi, thank you very much. Thank you. And coming up, attorneys Andrew Weissmann<\/a> and barry berke will consider what they have heard in the first 24 hours of Donald Trumps<\/a> Criminal Defense<\/a>. Thats next. Thats next. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. Remember the things you loved doing. Before your asthma got in the way . Get back to the things you love. With fasenra. Fasenra is an addon treatment for eosinophilic asthma. Having too many eosinophils, a type of white blood cell, can cause inflammation and asthma symptoms. 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Last night at this hour i i just gave it a lift. Ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. Asked the brilliant Andrew Weissmann<\/a> to consider possible lines of defense for the trump colonel defense team facing this new indictment ordered by special Prosecutor Jack Smith<\/a> against on trump and with all his experience in criminal tire trials, and weisman thought about it and could not see a Legal Defense<\/a> to mount vernon trump in the courtroom. And in the 24 hours since then, one of them trumps lawyers have spoken and some republican critics of the indictment have spoken including the wall street journal trail Editorial Board<\/a> who seem to believe that donald trump had a First Amendment<\/a> right to live out the election. And jack smiths election concedes that point and writing. He is saying the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome determinative fraud during the election and that he had one. Jackson as he said he can tell that life he wants to. And then jack smith described in the rest of the indictment how, quote, the defendant also pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes in subverting the election results. And perpetuated criminal conspiracies. Thats why donald trump was invite indicted. Not just, reliable for criminal conspiracies based on those lies. Joining on our investigation, barry byrd, and chief Victory Council<\/a> dot during don trumps second impeachment trial, and weisman, back with us, former fbi General Counsel<\/a> and chief of the criminal vision of the Eastern Division<\/a> of newark. A professor in practice at the nyu law school. And nbc legal analyst. One of Donald Trumps<\/a> lawyers spoke this morning and offered one line of Criminal Defense<\/a>. Lets listen to that line of Criminal Defense<\/a>. What President Trump<\/a> had was an actual opinion of council that his request to Vice President<\/a> pence was completely lawful unconstitutional. He also had many barry berke, with all your experience facing the challenge of mounting a Criminal Defense<\/a>, which is never easy, how does that when sound to you, the one we heard this morning . You know, lawrence, i am a lifelong Criminal Defense<\/a> lawyer. I love attack abatements. Thats a lousy defense. That is no defense. Its a highly that relies on. Counsel they tell you what the law is and you follow the is no defense but based on what a lawyer tells you. Even existing that are false. Ms. Representative and all these things are fraud, create president electors, there is no defense that allows you to do things that are criminal in improper and fraudulent so here is the fact that he has lawyers involved in a conspiracy actually helps to prove the of the defendant not provided advance. The lawyer eastman admitted that none of this had been tested. They call them false, fraudulent, electors, they knew they had to file a lawsuit at the 11th hour that was contextual. But more than, that he is misrepresenting to the Vice President<\/a> , to the state of legislatures, and serving in court about false claims of voter fraud that he was told repeatedly and admitted were crazy and untrue. Theres no defense there. So the defense you can say on tv, theres a defense you can say at a rally, but in a court of law you have to defend the fact of the law and he has none of that. Barry, what about what you have heard, in your editorial pages, republican editorial pages saying he has a right to lie, he has a right to say these things, this is criminalizing speech . Again, to be fair in that defense, thats crazy talk. Theres no First Amendment<\/a> right that you can say things that can lead to a crime. That would be like saying, yes you have a First Amendment<\/a> right to people they can vote. But you cant tell them to vote twice and then help them create fraudulent ballots and put it in. So theres no First Amendment<\/a> right, and it is interesting that in offering all these technical descent defenses are not saying the factual allegations are not true, because they cant. Theyre coming up with these defenses that just arent real defenses in a court of law. Andrew, youve joined us for i think all of the discussions we have tried to have about trump Criminal Defense<\/a>s. And we have given donald trump airtime here, because he presents versions of defenses at his rallies and we play them and we let you react to them as if something illegal has been said. I have yet to hear, in any of the cases, whether its the new york Criminal Case<\/a> or the southern florida Criminal Case<\/a> the jacks mitt, for this one, i have yet to hear anything that you can use as a defense in the courtroom. The key there is in the courtroom. That is absolutely key. There is no way to phrase this better than barry just stared, why this doesnt work. And i will point out, 94 95 of the indictment, which a colleague of mine just ignores is that john eastman is admits to three separate people that his theory would be rejected by the courts to three separate people. And then the defendants, defendant trump, is told that. So you dont get to rely on somebody after you are told that lawyer is wrong. And it does not work. So the thing to me that is upsetting is seeing places like the wall street journal and other conservative outlets viewing this through political lens when smart people, lets just be an adult for a moment, this is a time to be a patriot first. Judge looting very conservative former judge was the person who told mike pence you cannot do this. And by the way of course you cant. The idea that the Vice President<\/a> can decide whats going to happen in an election, well, lets talk right now and say donald trump theres no reason to run because Kamala Harris<\/a> is going to make the harriss gonna make the decision. Thats how ludicrous all of this is. And the idea that there arent enough patriots to stand up in the court of public opinion, is the part of that is really upsetting just to do an excellent interview with nancy pelosi, and that was her point about how upsetting it was for her to see a huge number of republicans right after january 6th being, dancing to the tune of a puppeteer. Its the same point, the people are not standing up when they should be. Barry berke you know the evidence against don trump on january six, partly impeachment being on a very incident, what is the most important thing youve learned and the jack smiths indictment that you did not know during the Impeachment Investigation<\/a> . There are quite a few things that jacks mitt and the january 6th select committee were able to get with the power of subpoena. But i think some of the strongest evidence that is the hardest to combat in court are the contemporary nias notes, and statements by those witnesses who were close to the president who can say in the the president s own words help to make the case. He made representations Vice President<\/a> pence, who took down in the notes of information and claims that he knew to be false, that the doj had found repeated claims of voter misconduct. They had not. He had said repeatedly that this was a crazy legal theory. He was told again and again, these are not true. So i think a lot of statements that came out puts the defendant front and center. He has someone who has great skill in avoiding accountability because he doesnt stand emails, he didnt say things directly. Here you have so much. There were not only the recordings, a recording of him the georgia secretary of state, that is a damning piece of evidence that sense at all. False claims by him, and then we claim, just give me the votes i need to win. So all of that that was put together were so effectively obtained but then told in a very easy to understand narrative that a jury can find, that the end result is something they have to care about, a frontal attack on our democracy and our Core Institutions<\/a> that not only put at risk our election but also the men and women in the capital who so bravely defended the attack but also risk to serious harm. So i think this is as powerful or cases you can have. I dont see any path to victory in an actual code of law. Were going to continue to give every word of Trump Defense<\/a> that emerges a hearing on this program. Barry berke, please come back and help us with that. Thank you for joining us tonight. Andrew weissmanns going to hang around. When we come, back one day after indicting donald trump for his actions to subvert the 2020 election, today jack summers filed a new motion in the espionage and obstruction case in florida, saying one of the criminal Defense Attorneys<\/a> has divided loyalties against, in that case. Thats next. s next. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance<\/a> so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. 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Divided loyalties have been brought to the attention of the court by special Prosecutor Jack Smith<\/a> based in florida now against donald j trump, walt nauta and Carlos De Oliveira<\/a>, in a motion filed today he said today to the judge who was appointed by donald trump that walt nauta Defense Council<\/a> Stanley Woodward<\/a> has divided loyalties in the case, because the new Star Witness For The Prosecution<\/a> used to be represented by stanley woodwork, who will have to cross examine that witness at the trial. Jack smith wrote an attorney who crossexamined former or present client inherently encounters divided loyalties. The motion tells the judge that Stanley Woodward<\/a> used to represent Trump Employee<\/a> 4, prosecutors told attorney would work in february and march that representing Trump Employee<\/a> fourth and walter not a quote raised a potential conflict of interest, the government specifically informed mr. Woodward that the government believe Trump Employee<\/a> 4 had information that would Incriminate Nauta<\/a>. Mr. Woodward inform the government that he was unaware of any testimony that Trump Employee<\/a> four would give that would Incriminate Nauta<\/a> and had advice Trump Employee<\/a> and nauta of the governments position about a possible conflict. According to mr. Woodward, he did not have reason to believe his concurrent representation of Trump Employee<\/a> 4 and not out raised a conflict of interest. And then, this happened. Trump employee 4 retain you council on july 5th and on july 27th, the grandeur returned a superseding indictment adding Carlos De Oliveira<\/a> as a defendant and charging all three defendants with Obstruction Of Justice<\/a> offenses stemming from their attempts to have Trump Employee<\/a> 4 delete Security Camera<\/a> footage at maralago. So, when Stanley Woodward<\/a> was representing both walt nauta and Trump Employee<\/a> 4 he claims that he had absolutely no idea that walt nauta asked Trump Employee<\/a> 4 to delete Security Camera<\/a> video and that Trump Employee<\/a> 4 did not do it. It took jack smith only three weeks to add new charges against donald trump and walt nauta and a new defendant into the case after Trump Employee<\/a> 4 dropped Stanley Woodward<\/a>, got a new lawyer, and began cooperating with prosecutors. As soon as Trump Employee<\/a> 4 dropped Stanley Woodward<\/a>, Trump Employee<\/a> 4 became the single most important witness in the case. The witness who provided to jack smith and his team, the new Criminal Dialogue<\/a> that is now included in the superseding indictment. The oliver told Trump Employee<\/a> 4 that the boss wanted the serve a deleted Trump Employee<\/a> for responded that he would not know how to do that, and that he did not believe that he would have the right to do that. De oliveira insisted to Trump Employee<\/a> 4 that the boss wanted the server deleted and asked, what are we going to do . Bradley moss and Andrew Weissmann<\/a> will join us on that next. Us on that next when i was diagnosed with hiv, i didnt know who i would be. But here i am. Being me. Keep being you. And ask your Healthcare Provider<\/a> about the number one prescribed hiv treatment, biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in many people whether youre 18 or 80. With one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to undetectable and stay there whether youre just starting or replacing your current treatment. Research shows that taking hiv treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting hiv through sex. Serious side effects can occur, including Kidney Problems<\/a> and kidney failure. Rare, lifethreatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. 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And for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. The Fluffy Fibers<\/a> trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. Im so hooked. Youll love swiffer. Or your money back my most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. What do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance<\/a>. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. My a1c was up here; now, its down with rybelsus\u00ae. Only pay for what you need. His a1c . Its down with rybelsus\u00ae. My doctor told me rybelsus\u00ae lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus\u00ae lost more weight. I got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. Rybelsus\u00ae isnt for people with type 1 diabetes. Dont take rybelsus\u00ae if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple Endocrine Neoplasia Syndrome<\/a> type 2, or if allergic to it. Stop rybelsus\u00ae and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Gallbladder problems may occur. Tell your provider about Vision Problems<\/a> or changes. Taking rybelsus\u00ae with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. Side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen Kidney Problems<\/a>. Need to get your a1c down . You may pay as little as 10 per prescription. Joining our discussion bradley moss, national security. Attorney Andrew Weissmann<\/a> is back with us. Andrew, what i just described about this divided Loyalty Situation<\/a> where the Attorney Woodward<\/a> representing walt nauta was told in february that Trump Employee<\/a> 4 who at the time was another client of Attorney Woodward<\/a> has information that could incriminate woodwards client nauta. What is supposed to happen at that moment . Here is a little lesson. The Sixth Amendment<\/a> of the constitution guarantees a defendant like walt not out conflict free council, unless the conflict is waived. So if that is what is going on here which is the government learned that the lawyer for walt nauta, in a Criminal Case<\/a>, represents, has represented, a witness and actually they say to more potential witnesses, that is three, and so you have divided loyalties. Walt nauta under the constitution is entitled to someone who can fully represent that person. So what can he do . He cannot share with walt nauta information he learned from those other clients. He cannot, ethically, crossexamined either a former or current client. He would not be able to cross examine taveras, somebody else would have to. Trump employee 4. Another thing he can do is you cant represent people who have criminal exposure and advise them on something that you are supposed to be able to advise them on whether the upside and downside a cooperating. If you can implicate another client, that is not in the best interest of your other clients to do that. There is your all front, why is the government raising this with the judge . Because walt nauta is entitled to the Sixth Amendment<\/a> right to counsel. If this is not clarified, if it is not made clear with the judge asking a lot of questions of mr. Nauta, then his right to counsel is violated, and if there is a trial, it can be overturned because he did not have the right to counsel. So, bradley moss, this is jack smith trying to head off a potential appeals point down the road. But it is also awfully strange reaction to this by Attorney Woodward<\/a>. Yes, i mean, look, what Stanley Woodward<\/a> did he came right to the lines of what you do not do in terms of the ethical obligations of an attorney, and to follow on angies point there is another lesson here, for any law students watching, heres how you beat the ethics exam, written, informed consent. Everything informed, written consent. The part of the reason the Justice Department<\/a> wants the conflict here is they want to know that the clouds understand the situation, are where the potential conflicts and if theyre willing to waive the conflict on there and at least, walter nauta has his own decisions to make, but if theyre able to wave it is written informed consent. They understand the potential conflicts and are aware of how he has different clients including nauta and that his interest could be effectively drawn into different areas. Walt nauta needs a lawyer who can cross examine Trump Employee<\/a> 4, because that is going to be, you know, the whole case. As of tonight, he does not have one. Were gonna hear more about this, and im sure as it proceeds, bradley moss, Andrew Weissmann<\/a>, thank you both for joining the discussion tonight. We will be right back. T we do this last year . Before you were preventing migraine with qulipta\u00ae . Remember the pain . Cancelled plans . The worry . That was then. And look at me now. Youll never truly forget migraine. But qulipta\u00ae reduces attacks, making zeromigraine days possible. Its the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. To help give you that forgetyouget migraine feeling. Dont take if allergic to qulipta\u00ae. Most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Qulipta\u00ae. The forgetyouget migraine medicine\u2122. 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Get back to better breathing. Ask your doctor about fasenra. Sleepovers just arent what they used to be. Get back to better breathing. A house full of screens . Basically no hiccups . You guys have no idea how good youve got it. How old are you . Like, 80 . Back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. We dont get scared. Oh, really . Mom can see your search history. Thats what i thought. Introducing the next generation 10g network. Only from xfinity. That is tonights last. Toward the 11th hour with Stephanie Ruhle<\/a> starts now. Tonight, the United States<\/a> versus donald j trump. What we can expect in Court Tomorrow<\/a> from the former president after he was indicted over efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And then, jack smith, highlighting the bravery of Law Enforcement<\/a> on january six. The chief of police on that day joins us with his reaction. And news of the latest indictment is dominating the 2024 conversation. But is it actually going to move Republican Voters<\/a> . As the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia802701.us.archive.org\/16\/items\/MSNBCW_20230803_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell\/MSNBCW_20230803_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20230803_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240707T12:35:10+00:00"}