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exposed in the depths of his political depraft at this and corrupt and criminal acts has been laid bare. not by radical leftists, or any of us in the media but by his inner most circle and the really, really committed ones as that. the trump officials who stayed on until the bitter last days of a bitter presidency tell us the riveting story of not one, not two but three criminal conspiracies that trump stands accused of by the united states government, in essence against the united states government. by the numbers jack smith has charged three criminal conspiracies, four criminal counts, named six unindicted co-conspirators and shined the light on one who was willing to overturn his election defeat. the indictment brought by jack smith against donald trump makes the coup plot he directed crystal clear for the world to see. here is how the justice department explains the first criminal count as the conspiracy to defraud the u.s. quote, the purpose of the conspiracy was to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election by using knowingly false claims of election fraud to obstruct the federal government function by which those results are collected, counted and certified. the indictment then goes on to lay out the details of that conspiracy. with it the entire coup plot and donald trump's vast criminal exposure. the justice department alleges that donald trump, quote, enlisted six co-conspiritors. co-conspirator 1 is trump's attorney rudy giuliani. 2 is lawyer and coup plot architect john eastman assessment confirmed by his attorney. three appears to be sidney powell. four is none other than jeffrey clark. he's the official who tried to take over the justice department and did for a little bit and get doj to support trump's fraud claims. five appears to be kenneth cheeseboro. he's the attorney who mapped out the scheme to set up fake slates of electors. currently a matter of debate and somewhat unclear who number 6 is. number 6 is described as a, quote, political consultant who helped implement a plan for a fraudulent slate of electors. it is chock full of new details. according to doj donald trump offered jeffrey clark the job of acting ag and clark accepted. the indictment says this, quote, on the afternoon of january 3rd co-conspirator 4, meaning jeffrey clark, spoke with a deputy white house counsel believed to be pat philbin. the previous month the deputy white house counsel had informed the defendant, that's trump, that, quote, there is no world, there is no option in which you do not leave the white house on january 20th. now, the same deputy white house counsel tried to dissuade co-conspiritor 4 from assuming the role of acting attorney general. the deputy white house counsel reiterated to co-conspiritor 4 that there had not been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that if the defendant remained in office nonetheless there would be, quote, riots in every major city in the united states. co-conspiritor 4 responds, quote, well, deputy white house counsel, that is why there's an insurrection act, end quote. there's actually more. it now appears that much of the case involving the unprecedented pressure campaign on mike pence to stop the certification of the electoral college on january 6th was built on contemporaneous notes taken by pence himself and, yes, handed over to and provided to special counsel jack smith. the indictment mentions this conversation. quote, on december 29th, as reflected in the vice president's contemporaneous notes, the defendant falsely told the vice president that the, quote, justice department was finding major infractions, end quote. as we all know, that's not true. bill barr called them bs. we know it was false. trump knew it was false at the time. doj found no evidence of false that would impact the election and told trump that was the case. the vice president just in the last hour spoke out in his most forceful words kbret conspiracy to overturn trump's defeat. >> i really do believe anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states. anyone who asks someone else to put themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states again. what the president maintained that day and frankly has said over and over again over the last 2 1/2 years is completely false and it's contrary to what our constitution and the laws of this country provide. i dismissed it out of hand. sadly, the president was surrounded by a group of crack pot lawyers that kept telling him what his itching lawyers wanted to hear. pence, strident words against his old boss. while pence hunts for votes, his old boss, donald trump, the ex-president is going to be busy tomorrow because he's set to be arraigned in washington, d.c. an official familiar with the matter tells nbc news that the justice department is expecting trump to appear in person. day one after the second -- third indictment, can't keep track anymore, of the ex-president for a coup where he led is what we're discussing today. let's start at the table. now that you've had time to read it and get off live tv, what surprises you? >> well, one thing that surprises me is, you know, we're so focused on this indictment and just -- let's just take a step back. when you said this is the second, no third indictment. just last week the former president -- >> right. i have it wrong still. so fourth. >> it's technically the fourth. just last week, i didn't mean it as a correction. >> no, you're right. >> just last week he was charged with a second obstruction of justice scheme in the documents case, really blatant core obstruction. >> deleting the server? >> exactly. >> before that it was lying to his lawyers so his lawyers would then lie to the justice department. those were lawyers who took contemporaneous notes just like you said with respect to mike pence which, by the way, is note to self, if you are working for this man, that's what you need to do. as you know from having worked in the white house, that's not normal. you're not normally thinking that's what you have to worry about with the president of the united states. >> my big take home from this and what i meant was this is not going to be about the facts or the law. i remember a judge in the district of columbia saying the courts are where facts and laws still matter. here obviously the government has to prove it, has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously. this is going to be a test of us and how are we acting and whether we care about the facts and the law because the allegations here, and there's so much evidence here, are really crystal clear. the charges are so mainstream in terms of this is not a novel legal theory, this is brought over and over again. to me this is really going to be about whether people in this country care about the facts and the law. >> $6 million question we've been grappling with for seven years. i think there's something very real and sobering about how much trump cares about being accused of crimes, and i have read all the political coverage. i know that his standing in the republican primary is unchanged, but trump understands the gravity of what he's been charged with as well as anybody involved. >> nicole, absolutely. not only does trump understand, but everybody around him. i go back, my surprise was what took so long? i remember 2 1/2 years ago hearing mitch mcconnell staring at him in his eyes, if you impeach me, counsel, he knew we proved this case, voted to not convict the president and instead made a speech we proved our case. there's a criminal process. i remember thinking damn right there's a criminal process and if it works like it's supposed to, there's supposed to be charges. while donald trump knows this, he knows people focus beyond the political back and forth timing. the focus of what's at stark -- stake here, this tells a story of someone who's desperate and he doesn't have to give up his power. they're fought every day in different context where people need money and tell lies. those are easy cases to prove. so i think he knows this is a compelling case. the evidence is there. the witnesses, his own people in his administration campaign, those who supported him are there to testify against him and he knows this is a case that can bring him down. i hope as andrew highlights, i hope people focus -- this is not about donald trump, this is about our democracy, our system of government and are we going to be true to our original ideals and hold someone accountable who will put himself above the highest ideals that define who we are as a country and make this place so important to know that actually people can vote and determine the future. >> i want to drill down on two things you said. i don't want to gloss over the timing. if a democratic senate leader had criminally referred, that's what mcconnell did, he did a public speech criminally referring trump for prosecution, if a democrat had done that to an outgoing democratic president, republican administration would have indicted him in six weeks. do you have a theory about -- i mean, trump's first response was why did it take 2 1/2 years. it might be the first time in history i had the same question he did. >> it took a lot of time for a lot of years. we had a lot of evidence at the impeachment showing all the things he did, the false statements, the like leading to the crescendo on our capitol. with the power of subpoena, the january 6th special select committee brought all of these people in who told the truth and when you have a case and there's a truth of what happened, all the facts support it. they all came together to show this compelling story that just repeats what trump's own people told him. it did take time and they wrote an extraordinarily persuasive and effective indictment. they moved as quickly as they could based on what they knew. i think the bigger question is you say why -- how do people react to this? is there any courage left, right? the folks in the senate, i spent time with them and many other people when they were down there. they knew what was proven. will they finally stand up as they did momentarily and say this attack on our capitol and our government actually matters. now we have accountability and it's more than politics. i don't know that i would do it but the criminal process does a couple of things. at this point it highlights true crimes and seeks to hold someone accountable. >> neil, one of the things that trump has sought to hide behind, it's interesting, as in the documents case, there's not a real defense to the facts being offered by trump's side that i can find, but one of the things he's hit behind is free speech. he doesn't charge free speech. he has a right to say whatever he wanted. he charges the acts and something that was always clear, you know, from the outset we pieced it together, then the congressional committee went and investigated it, but what is crystal clear from this document is trump directs the fake electors plot. trump and everybody involved calls them fake because they know they're a fraud. they're knowingly in emails, texts and conversations and contemporaneous notes person trading a fraud. there's a keystones cops element to it that might have misdirected folks at the beginning, but it's so flagrant on paper. >> yeah. one of the things i loved about the indictment yesterday was just knocking out the free speech argument on page 2 of the indictment and saying, that's not what we're charging you with. in free speech -- i mean, truch's defense has been, i just said it. i didn't actually do anything, but that is never a defense in the law. if i, you know, order you to kill someone, you know, or conspire with you to kill someone through my words or, you know, something like that, that doesn't mean that i -- well, it's only speech, therefore i can't be prosecuted. that's thoroughly bogus. i think more generally jack smith's indictment here is straightforward and narrow but, boy, it packs a punch. it's calculated and i feel like it's almost certainly going to result in a conviction. obviously trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence and jack smith has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. we've seen a lot of the evidence in this indictment like what you were just referring to, the different plots and the states and the like and it seems like a very, very strong case trump will get his day in court like every other defendant but i certainly don't expect that day to go well for him. one just tell on i think what's happened -- you know, how strong the indictment is is to watch mike pence who's not exactly a profile in courage. yesterday right after the indictment came out he said, well, anyone who overthrows -- who seeks to overthrow a lawful election is not -- should not be president of the united states. which is to say absolutely nothing. of course that's true. anyone who does that shouldn't be president. the question is, does pence think that anyone is donald trump? yesterday he didn't answer that question, but after reviewing i suspect the indictment, you know, the statement that you just read, is mike pence finding his vertebrae or maybe one vertebra, maybe a disc, i don't know. it is actually a pretty strong statement from pence to say trump did it. >> yeah. >> and pence knows, i suspect, other people will get to andrew's question, what's the public think? there's two audience here. there's the audience of 12 jurors and the audience of the american people. we've talked -- i've talked a lot about the 12 jurors but the american people question andrew raises is an important one as well. >> mike, you have some great reporting today about the speed with which jack smith moved. he had this running start from the extraordinary body of work from the 1/6 select committee. he also didn't have -- wasn't investigating his own firing. there was some contrast to the muller team's kind of ill-fated efforts to hold trump accountable for his crimes as president. take me inside what you feel like we know about jack smith today that we didn't know at this hour yesterday. >> to your point about the speed at which smith was able to move, i think i heard tim hayfe, the former lead investigator of the january 6th committee say earlier today there wasn't a lot there that was not in the january 6th report. there was some stuff -- someecd we already knew about, but the bare bones basics were already there. it's hard not to see this all in the context of the committee and what the committee laid out. and the fact that the committee from the beginning took this view, they hired former federal prosecutors and they concentrated on the issue of criminality. they were going to try and raise the issue of criminality as much as possible to essentially show the country that this was not just a political problem, this was a criminal problem. and there's differing accounts about how far along the justice department was before the report or before cassidy hutchinson testifies, but at the end of the day it was hard when i was reading the indictment not to think not only had we heard -- read this before but we heard it before. and the work of the committee and what they did, they really helped tell the entire story in a way that even folks like myself that were covering january 6th, it opened my eyes to new things. it was hard not to see everything in that indictment through the lens of the committee. >> well, and what the committee so effectively did was they went to state -- they -- mike slack's reporting on jack smith's final investigations was that jack smith was tying up loose ends around state of mind. jared kushner was one of those interviews. mike pence was in there. mark meadows. what the committee did visually through taped depositions, by taking stepien and mashing him against ivanka and bill barr, there was knowledge of falsity. first line of the first count is knowledge of falsity. that's -- >> 100%. >> they functioned as though they were making a criminal -- >> putting my hat on as a criminal defense lawyer, you think how do i attack this? first, can i prove that he actually believed these statements to be true? well, no, because you have all these people around him who not only told him they were untrue repeatedly and then he admitted it and said theories were crazy. he signed verifications. he told people he engaged in the false conduct proven every day. the indictment does a very effective job in laying out and anticipating the defense and really defeating it. >> annihilating it. because we have the luxury of 24 hours, i want to bring to light some of the video. we have to sneak in a quick break before we do that. i promise you, no one is going anywhere. we'll have much, much more. plus, one of the lawmakers who jumped into action to protect his own colleagues when they came under attack on january 6th. later in the broadcast as we've been discussing, lead investigator tim hayfe will also join our investigation on how so much of their work appears to have been the roadmap for the charges that came out yesterday against the ex-president. all of this when "deadline white house" comes back. don't go anywhere. mine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. -right? i'm great. -you are great. oh, brother. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. a man, his family, and his tractor, penny. these are the upshaws. and this is their playground. there's a story in every piece of land, run with us on a john deere tractor and start telling yours. did you ever point blank say to the president, i will not do this? i will not intervene? we've lost this election? >> i did, david, many times. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which i told the president was [ bleep ]. >> attorney general barr made a public announcement december 1st, less than a month that he had seen, you know, sufficient fraud. fair to say by december 1st you had -- >> it is fair to say i agreed with attorney general barr. attorney general barr's conclusion on december 1st. yes, i did. >> as the president went through them i went piece by piece to say, no, that is false, that is not true. to correct him really in his serial fashion as he moved from one theory to another. >> i don't even know why you have a side because you should want to have an accurate election. and you're a republican. >> we believe we do have an accurate election. >> i was in the oval office and at some point in the conversation matt oskowski who is the lead data person was brought on and i remember he delivered to the president pretty blunt terms that he was going to lose. >> we're all back. mike schmidt, i start with you. when you get through the indictment, jack smith seemed toll deliberately populate it with the political affiliation and the commitments to trump specifically of all of the witnesses in each state specific fraudulent scheme he charges. he starts with arizona. he quotes rusty bowers' commitment to trump. he quotes his attestation to how hard he work to make sure trump won. he has an extraordinary statement i didn't remember from the michigan speaker about his deep commitment to trump's candidacy, presidency and re-election but he drew the line at not overturning the will of the people in the election. he goes state by state quoting and populating this 45-page indictment with the political affiliations and employment at this to trump that all the people held that they drew in carrying out the fake elector scheme. did we learn how trump was in the state by state by state schemes? >> i think to some extent seeing it laid out like that made it clearer how much he was not just sort of the public face of this effort and that he was actually working the phones. we knew he was working the phones. we knew he was meeting with state legislators coming to washington to talk to him. we obviously knew about the calls to georgia and such, but it does seem to concentrate on his individual actions. and to the point that, you know, other folks were making is that it's not about his statements, it's about his actions. it's about what he did. and his lawyer's already out there, john morrow is already on television saying this is a first amendment protected speech. these are things he was just saying and that -- that argument has been echoed by others on the hill, other republicans, but it's -- it's trying to concentrate, it looks like from reading the indictment, concentrate on the actions. the in those actions use people that, you know, have loyalties to trump, that have expressed their loyalties to trump, that were lifelong republicans, big trump supporters, people that trump had dealt with before who were telling him, you know, things that he did not want to hear. it's using those people as witnesses against him. >> you know, i mean, neil, to what mike's saying, the involve -- we covered it as an open question, right? the intimacy of trump's hands-on role in fake electors. he is its architect. he is its cheerleader. he's the one when it looks too hard he's pushing and prodding his campaign people to keep going. they're emailing amongst themselves all of the smoking guns about how they're false. we better not call them false in their emails. something chuck rosenberg said to me years ago, not all criminals are smart. what do you see in this sort of tapestry of trump's dominance in the recruitment of fake electors and slates of fake electors? >> donald trump has two defenses that he's trying to trod out. one is, there was no bad criminal act. all i did was speech. and as you rightly point out, boy, the indictment just shows his hands were thick in it, not just speech but active involvement in orchestrating all of these different plots, whether it's fake electors, whether it's disrupting the count on january 6th. so many different things. so that then leads trump to pivot to a different defense which is, i didn't have the criminal intent, the bad mens rea, i legitimately thought i won. the clips you showed are devastating proof trump knew and had to know something else. now i suppose he still has a defense is everyone is saying that but i believed something else. that is not a defense. as a criminal defendant, you don't just get to invent your own reality and say, well, i lacked the criminal intent because of it. like if i pull out a gun and shoot you, i can't defend myself by saying i don't think bullets kill people. when i shot you i didn't think they killed you at the time. at some point all of these defenses that go to state of mind have to be tempered with a dose of reality. when your own attorney general is telling you something. when your own top white house counsel is telling you something. when the other top officials at the justice department is telling you something, when state officials are telling you something, when 62 courts are telling you something, if at that point you say, well, i didn't believe any of them, that isn't a mens rea defense. >> well, there's also evidence to the contrary, that he didn't believe the crazy people. this indictment makes clear that he thought sidney powell was crazy, which cuts both ways. i want to read this. we've talked about it a lot on this show. it shows up in the indictment. trump tells chairman of joint chiefs that a national security would be for the, quote, next guy. on the evening of january 3rd, busy day for trump, the defendant met for a briefing on an overseas national security issue with the chairman of the joint cheefgs of staff and other senior national security advisers. the chairman briefed the defendant on the issue, which had prooefgsly a rizzutien in defendant, as well as possible ways the defendant could handle it. when the chairman and another adviser recommended that the defendant take no action because inauguration day was only 17 daze days away and any course of action could trigger something unhelpful, he agreed stating, yeah, you're right, it's too late. we're going to give that to the next guy. he knew he lost so he knew all of this was fraudulent. >> those sort of statements in a criminal case are overwhelming. it's the defendant's own words. big picture, he knew he lost. even beyond that, they don't have to prove he believed he knew he won, the question is was he making false statements? he himself adopted that. the notion there were not really these stolen ballots or dead voters, he knew it but he nevertheless repeated it, repeated it. those sort of statements are fatal to what he's going to say. you also see how it's all tied together in the indictment when he is told that there is no way pence is going to do something, he sends out another email to the mob to come put pressure. he again does things. when he sent out the initial email, come, it will be wild. that's after he was told these crazy theories of sidney powell wouldn't work. this tells such a compelling story. as a defense lawyer and i've had the good fortune of winning cases, we always say, what is your path to victory. >> right. >> looking a the this indictment donald trump has no path. >> his path is re-election. he's made that clear, right? >> there is no criminal defense path to this because he is going to be convicted. these defenses he's trotting out, that's crazy. you can tell someone the first amendment. you can't say i want you to vote twice and i'm going to prepare your fraudulent ballots. you can't do that. that's not a real defense. he does not have a defense in this case. it's an overwhelming case. the proof is beyond reproach. the witnesses, they have to be impeachment of bias. they have the opposite of bias. they supported that. everything you look at with a criminal defense, you don't have it. these are public statements for re-election. they will not keep him out of jail unless something extra judicial happens outside of the case. >> which we know is now trump's third run for the presidency making that, making extra judicial countries great again. >> mike schmidt for your reporting, thank you again. neil, thank you so much for starting us off. to both of you. you are sticking around with me at the table. we're going to turn to the violence that ensued. we're going to bring back someone who was there who witnessed it. january 6th was a nightmare for the whole country. for those stuck, who were inside the capitol that day, lawmakers, their staff, law enforcement officials, it was much, much worse. it was a threat to their lives. we'll talk to someone who experienced the terror firsthand next. el effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. for too long, big pharmaceutical companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. that's changing now. joe biden just capped the price of insulin for seniors at $35 a month. gave medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. and prices are already starting to go down. the out-of-pocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. 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(vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy s23. only on verizon. the rioters made it into the capitol and cut off our access routes so capitol police weren't able to actually evacuate us so they barricaded us within the house floor. they locked the doors and actually started to pile furniture up against the doors and windows and pulled their guns out. there was a group of about 15 or 20 members who were trapped in there. we were surrounded by rioters who ran and break down the doors and break the glass. >> that was congressman jason crow on january 6th reacting in real time to his own experience and the trauma everyone there experienced. he was speaking with us. my colleague rachel maddow moments after being trapped in the white house gallows. now more than two years later yesterday's indictment stands as another reminder as the ex-president's dangerous, divisive actions that led to the deadly violence. the indictment laying out how the ex-president exploited the mop, the chaos of the day that about two hours after the mob first entered the capitol, now defendant trump, quote, joined others in the outer oval office to watch the attack on the capitol on television. and he said this, quote, see? this is what happens when they try to steal an election. these people are angry. these people are really angry about it. this is what happens, end quote. joining our conversation, congressman jason crow from colorado. thank you for being here. one thing i've asked barry and andrew about is this basic tenant of recidivism in the law. if someone keeps doing something over and over again, that's how sometimes flawed policies come into place. maximum number of offenses or things that are very much under review and debated. one of the basic theories is that if someone is getting more and more brazen, their acts are not being addressed. i wonder what you think when you read the brazen acts of insurrection, of conspiracy to defraud the country, of his role in plotting the fake electors slate, how many states he needed to be hands on and the fake slates of electors in everyone of them. >> well, nicole, you know, i've known donald trump -- i've been around him, i've been in congress almost five years now so i've had a lot of experience dealing with donald trump, and we have a lot of history as a country dealing with him now. he has proven to all of us, not just congress but to the american people, who he is. this is an ill man. this is a deeply deranged man, somebody with sociopath thick and psycho pathic tendencies. when you read that quote you just read to us and other statements donald trump has read to other folks around january 6th, this is somebody who is incapable of empathy, incapable of compassion and able to do anything towards inciting violence. this next step towards justice, next indictment needed to happen. >> the indictment doesn't charge anyone other than donald trump but there is a lot of narrative description of trump's reliance on his republican allies in congress. do you think there will ever be any accountability for them? >> i don't know, nicole. it's too early to tell. there are co-con spirit horse named in the indictments. there are other criminal proceedings moving forward. i want to see accountability for people who broke the law. i don't want any pre-determined outcomes here because that's not what's in the best interests of our country. that's not how the rule of law should work. we need to follow the facts and see where the evidence leads, and if the evidence leads to people that committed the law, they should be held accountable. very simple. >> something else so simple as we watched it but seeing it in black and white is harrowing, is the call and action that impacted the security measures that were taken to protect the life of the vice president and his family. let me read you this from the indictment, page 40. at 2:20 p.m. after advisers had left the defendant, that's donald trump alone in his dining sports league, the defendant, donald trump, issued a tweet intended to further delay and obstruct the certification. quote, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. usa demands the truth exclamation point. one minute later at 2:25 p.m. the united states secret service was forced to evacuate the vice president to a secure location. at the capitol throughout the afternoon members chanted, hang mike pence. where is pence? bring him out. traitor. pence. the defendant repeatedly refused to direct rioters to leave the capitol through a message. there is real depravity here for the violence he incited. what is the correct remedy for it that? >> correct remedy is whatever the law proscribes. it has to lead to -- the facts have to lead to an indictment or, you know, the legal process as we're seeing it play out. a grand jury will see that. grand jurys indict. this is a jury just like any other jury. when people get the jury notices in the mailbox and they open it up and they show up for jury duty, a certain number of those folks are taken and put on to a grand jury just like everybody else. there's nothing different or special about these people. these are regular people just like you and me who have been put on these juries and they are the ones that decide to indict much like if there's a trial here, they are the ones who will stand in judgment of donald trump. let's not forget, for all of the threats against people like pence, there was real brutality and real damage. hundreds of police officers were brutally beaten. over 100 were seriously injured. a police officer was killed. that was because he was there full stop. he makes clear he doesn't speak for all of them but it's clear for harry dunn who's received awards from this president who obviously needs a platform and he's an important voice calling for accountability. there's no sort of process solution. the trauma is real and it's forever and i wonder what you think the impact is on real victims, people like harry dunn and people like your staff, yourself to watch the process play out like it's clearly going to play out. and on the right, you know, fortify the protections around the bs defenses that aren't even legal in the hr, they're purely political, and throw sand in the gears of the wheels of justice and truth. >> there's a lot of different victims here, nicole. there was the police officer who was killed. there were over 100 police officers who were brutally beaten, some of whom have terrible injuries. there were police officers who took their own lives in the weeks and months after january 6th because of the trauma. then there were the voters, the american people who were victimized here too. the people who cast their vote in this election. the voters of the country who donald trump tried to disregard and throw their votes out in a fraudulent way. they were victimized too. there were so many different layers of victims involved in what donald trump did, his big lie. and they all deserve accountability of some sort. so that's why we're goings through this process. that's why a grand jury will sit here and look at the rest of the evidence and that's why ultimately there will be a jury that will sit in judgment of donald trump. >> jason crow, it feels like full circle. i was sitting right over there, it was covid. rachel maddow was interviewing you in a separate studio. your words have stood with me. thank you for spending time with us. >> thank you. did you want to make a point? >> i was just going to echo something congressman crow said. i was down in that capitol when it was a crime scene and there were so many people who were there on january 6th. they were just preparing for the impeachment. they would break down in tears because they were so affected. that's what's going to happen at this trial. this trial not only has the attack, the amorphous idea of the attack on democracy, that real life victimization of all of these people, the brave officers, everyone who worked in the capitol, the jurors are going to see that. when you think of a powerful case. when congressman crow acted so heroically. it's true. when everybody talks about their acts, it creates tears. it's so emotional and that will play out in a courtroom which is damning for a defendant. >> i want to read some more of it to you. what jack smith writes is, again, something the congressional investigation got it but it's really black and white, something that cassidy hutchinson testified to. you know, she says in that sad voice, you know, he didn't say anything because he doesn't want to. he thinks they're right. jack smith has all of that in here. and it is -- it is -- it is chilling. we'll press andrew on that on the other side. don't go anywhere. become an aunty. book a flight. stay 4 nights. meet the baby. make the baby cry. give the baby back. fly home. silver tier in a single trip. join one key and move up tiers fast. (pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. back with the brain trust. andrew, let me keep reading from the end of the indictment. at 3 p.m. the defendant, donald trump, had a phone call with the minority leader of the united states house of representatives, that's kevin mccarthy. the defendant told the minority leader that the crowd at the to leader was more upset about the election than the minority leader was. 4:17 the defendant released a video message he'd just taped in the rose garden. he repeatedly the knowingly false claim we had an election stolen from us and asked individuals to leave the capitol telling them they were, quote, very special and that, quote, we love you. and then at 6:01 he tweets this. trump tweets these are the things and events that happen when a sacred land slide election victory is so unceremoniously and viciously swept away from patriots so badly treated under so long. go home in peace and remember this day forever. i want to focus in here about the violence. that's trump's enthusiasm for the people who are beating some of these officers to death, violence described by combat veterans as worse than anything they saw in combat. you've also got the jeffrey clark note about the insurrection, and you've got a reference to john eastman's indifference to violence. he was the one that directed at mike pence the pre-january 6th, pre-coup sort of ideological match. what do you think trump's appetite is around the violence here? >> one more piece that's definitely new because it clearly was coming from people who were not able to speak to -- or they could have spoken to but were not speaking to the january 6th committee, which was just the day before when the vice president is meeting with donald trump and is saying i'm not going to go forward, and the president says do you understand i'm going to be criticizing you. and you have the vice president's chief of staff alerting the secret service because of his concern about the safety of the vice president of the united states because of the conduct of the president of the united states. i mean, it still gives me chills. anyone who's been in the white house and anyone in law enforcement the idea that conversation happening, we worry about the safety of the president and vice president coming from outside, not from inside. >> and that's 24 hours in advance. and we have that piece, right, where the vp staff is talking to him, and we don't know why. now we know why. it's because trump told peps i'm coming for you. >> on january 6th it's hang mike pence. and if you want to think about the president's response to that, the person who has been loyal to him, who has been his vice president for four years, where people are saying hang him. and you know that you incited that, you know that you have said things about him that are false that led to this. and you have no human response because what are you doing in the horror of the attack on the capitol that we all watched just with disbelief as to what was happening an -- to america and an american institution. >> yeah. >> and the reaction to that is how can i use this to cling to power. >> but the thing is -- and it's such a great parallel how we've covered trump inaccurately. we're all looking for a break, right? oh, he'll call it off when pence -- he'll call it off. he never calls it off. what comes after the pence scene and after all this, they're still on the phone because they are as i said before incompetent criminals. they're calling all these wrong senators, but they are still leaving messages and trying to obstruct the count. >> which is further evidence of criminal intent. even when he knew his vice president was at risk of physical harm, he was still doing it because he was intending by any means to obstruct the election. that's going to be prof of all the other intents that need to be proven in the aspects of the crime. it's overwhelming. you both started by saying this is about us, it's about us as a country. i would argue one of the two parties has already told us who they are. 74% of republicans want trump again. where does that leave the rest of us? >> i want to broaden that to go beyond the certain segment of the republican party to think back to the dominion case and to think about what's really happening in the alvin bragg case which was really about the national enquirer being complicit. the reason i think those are linked is that what is the responsibility of the media in covering this? and that's where, you know, we've talked a lot about this is the criminal case but you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt because that's what we do in this country before someone goes to jail. that's a different standard for how you cover it here and how congress can think about it, how we can talk about it. this indictment is based on a finding, as the congressman said, it's based on probable cause. so there's been a finding of probable cause. by the way, the courts cannot look behind that. there has been a finding by a preponderance by a federal judge -- exactly, that donald trump engaged in this conspiracy with john eastman. and to me that is the sort of larger story about what stokes that group of america that is still wedded to a person and to a lack of what we all thought was fundamental to this country. >> what texas has done here is something that, you know, lasts forever. the country will never unsee this. the 45th person to have the job, the 45th one tried to overthrow the government, and then listed six coconspirators and counting. how do we recover from that regardless of what happens in court? >> before we recover we're still processing it. to the question you asked andrew, will the american people see this? we know this from the congressional hearings, right, half of america who gets their news from someplace other than msnbc, they didn't see a lot of the hearings. they turned away. it wasn't seen. this indictment is hard to turn away from. the people not believing what was said before will they start believing? will people have doubts? will they think i can be prosecuted simply note-taking a false statement on a loan application. to your point i think the recovery is will there be accountability? and if this works and the american people begin to see this and there's not only the conviction in jail but also the american people coming to see how much our whole system was in jeopardy, then we can recover. but if it's ignored i think we have a long road to figure out who we are as a country and protect our democracy and institutions. >> we may be framing an election where one guy is running on pardoning himself and the other is running on a rule of law in a more dramatic clash will have never preceded a contest. thank you so much for both being here. it's so special to get to talk to both of you. thank you very much. up next for us there's more. how the congressional committee's hours and hours of work led to yesterday's criminal indictment of the ex-president of these united states. much more news straight ahead. don't go anywhere today. t ahead. don't go anywhere today. ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... 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"the new york times" reports this, quote, the justice department sought and received transcripts of the committee's hundreds of interviews but then advanced the investigation beyond what congress had been able to accomplish. its officials obtained at least a dozen more key interviews than congress could by winning court rulings to pierce through executive and attorney-client privileges that witnesses including mr. pence have previously invoked against testifying. here's how one committee member reacted to news. congressman jamie raskin last night just hours after the charges were announced. watch. >> the indictment closely tracks what's in our report. one of the passages that jumped out at me is somewhat new where trump says there this is what happens when you steal an election. that'll chis indictment is what happens when you try to steal an election. what happened on january 6th is what happens when donald trump loses an election. that's when you get riot and violence and insurrection and teams to steal an election. but the proper response is precisely what we saw happen today, so i view this as tremendous vindication of the rule of law in american democracy. >> there were revelations in jack smith's indictment, that's the comment made by trump on january 6th that congressman raskin alluded to as well as the fact vice president mike pence took contemporaneous notes. the special counsel obtained those contemporaneous notes. all affwhich we'll dive into with our guests in a minute. the indictment of donald trump seems almost normal in recent months, the new normal at least. it's important not to lose sight of the significance of this one just handed out by a d.c. grand jury. a former president of the united states of america was charged with three conspiracies for attempting to overthrow an election he knew he'd lost. answering this question committee member liz cheney posed a year ago. >> understanding what it means if the facts and the evidence are there and they decide not to prosecute, how do we then call ourselves a nation of laws? >> our healthy nation of laws is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. from "the new york times" congressional reporter is here. also joining us former league investigator for the january 6th committee tim heafy. i give you the floor. i know it's been 24 hours since this has been out there. i think people have had enough time to sift through the committee's report and what we've learned. and whereas you said all along jack smith would be able to punch through those privileges and go even farcter. what is your feeling today having gone through all this? >> you know, it's a swirl, candidly, nicolle. part of me feels somewhat vindicated. it is yet another affirmation that the fact that the select committee found are credible, that the story we're able to piece together through our investigation has stood up. jack smith has only made that story stronger, so there's candidly some feeling of satisfaction about that. at the same time it's a sad day for america, we're talking about the indictment of a former president and the understandable consternation that is causing this country. i used to feel this way when i was a prosecutor and there would be a conviction in the case. sort of satisfied it's a just outcome, but it's not a reason to celebrate. it's a sadness and a lot of victimization this doesn't undo. i have a mix of reaction tuesday the indictment. >> i'm so glad i started with the swirl. i think i http://found that yet but i think that's exactly right. i waited stupidly until august to take my family vacation and was honored to come back to be here today to get to talk to you guys, but i felt the swirl. and i read the indictment on my phone in the airport and i read it with a lump in my throat this could happen. luke broadwater, you first kale on my show when you wrote about ten known contacts between ten members of congress and extremist groups who had littered the day of january 6th but also been around republican politics in the time of trump, which was new, right? there weren't proud boys at the bob dole rallies that anyone has reported. but i, too, luke, had this swirl that so many people had this happen. jack smith, merrick garland for appointing him, tim heafy. and the people who are in this 45-page indictment who jack smith makes a deliberate point of pointing out over and over again weren't just republicans, they weren't just conservatives. they were die hard trump supporters who only drew the line at overturning the results of the election in their state. a line that republican members of congress were not willing to vote. after the insurrection they came back and voted to overturn the results. what does this indictment do to whatever sort of -- i don't even want to call it fragile piece, whatever the dynamics are on the hill. >> yeah, i don't think it changes the dynamics on the hill much at all because, you know, republicans have -- they've become the party of trump, and so they're in such lock step with trump that, you know, he can't lose them no matter what. even mike pence who said -- whose life was in danger by the mob that day has defended trump and said he shouldn't be indicted. so the -- so i don't see that changing much. but you're right that, you know, we spent a lot of time in the media looking for connections between trump and some of the extremist groups, right? and what this indictment said was you didn't need to prove some secret plan, right? you didn't need to have a message between trump and the proud boys about the violence that day. what trump did was he took advantage of the violence once it was under way to try to stay in power, and that was the final rung of the attempts to obstruct the official proceeding of congress. and so the way that jack smith laid it out as sort of a final step in obstructing congressmen, conspiracy i think makes it a stronger case where you don't need to have some secret plan or some covert communication that couldn't be found. much of it all happened in public, and we could see it with our own eyes. >> yeah, i mean i want to dive into some of the evidence that jumped off from the committee and press both of you on where jack smith went with it. let me ask you to pick up on luke's point, i mean i guess some of the benefits of coming after the congressional probe is -- and 2 1/2 years of sort of constant analysis of this is he didn't charge his speech, right? he also doesn't charge him for having the mob carry zip ties and engage in, quote, medieval hand to hand combat with members of law enforcement. he charged with misconduct which is not in dispute by anyone even trump. how does that get at the strength and strategy here of a trump prosecution? >> yeah, look, i think it's a surgical indictment purposefully. it's designed to get to court as quickly as possible to eliminate potential defenses like we're punishing free speech. and it is consistent with the facts, right? we -- our criminal referrals started with obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the united states. those are the two statutes that jack smith similarly started with. those have always been the statutes that apply most directly to this intentional specific pattern of conduct, specifically intending to disrupt the joint session. aid and comfort to an insurrection is harder to prove. it doesn't have the same amount of precedent, the same amount of interpretation. seditious conspiracy which has been used against the proud boys and oath keepers requires intent. we can't say with proof beyond a reasonable doubt the president intended there to be forced use. it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. we didn't get cooperation from steve bannon, roger stone, mike flynn, the people that would have been the connectivity between the seditious conspirators on the ground and the white house. so he has carefully chosen statutes that apply that are designed to get to court and resolve this matter as soon as possible. not a surprise at all. he's a very careful lawyer, and the charges are the ones that we've been talking about for a long time. >> tim, it's clear from the indictment what pence provides -- some of what pence provides. this is in the indictment. on january 1st the president called the vice president because he'd just learned the vice president opposed a lawsuit seeking a judicial decision that at the certification the vice president had the authority to reject or return votes to the state under the constitution. the vp responded that he thought there was no constitutional basis for such authority and that it was improper. in response the defendant, trump, told the vice president, quote, you're too honest. you know, you said to me the first time i had a chance to talk to you after the congressional broke that there were certain things you didn't get. you didn't get all of pence's notes, but you were pretty sure what was behind the curtain you ran up against would not be evidence that enhanced trump's defense of his conduct that day. that seems to prove that point. >> yeah, exactly. we interviewed mark short, the vice president's chief of staff. and i remember sitting across the room and asking him directly did the vice president convey his position at the joint session directly at the president? and mark short's answer was many times. so we said secondhand information about what was conveyed during those conversations. jack smith was able to get direct evidence. the vice president himself saying here's what he said to me, here are the words he used including that pithy, you are too honest point. so has been been able to take p any facts in the indictment and they just have to cite. >> what is your take, tim, on the six coconspirators? are those the six you would have named? you have any theory why they aren't charged yet? >> yeah, i think it's another decision designed to get to the case to court quickly. it's much easier to quickly move a case against one person than it is a case against seven people. yes, the people -- and they're not named but who they are -- almost all of them just from reading the indictment are exactly the people that we frankly did name. we named rudy giuliani and john eastman and jeff clark and all of them -- and sydney powell, and our criminal referrals and facts amply demonstrates they were participants in these offenses. conspiracy is an agreement. it is people getting together to agree to take certain actions that would violate the law, and there's ample evidence that all of them had such an agreement with the president. now, they're not out of the woods. just because they're not charged here doesn't mean they won't be charged in a superseding indictment, in a separate case. they might even work out some sort of resolution. what often happens in conspiracy cases, some conspirators facing the prospect of real exposure and trying to provide information may happen here or already has happened here, very hard to tell. it's clear to me, though, that he identified them because his comment is crucial, hootthy identified them anonymously, but he limited the defendant to president trump because he's the leader and that's the most reliable way to get this case adjudicated as quickly as possible. >> a lot of the indictment deals with something the committee spent a lot of time dealing with and introduced the country to two lifelong republicans and trump supporters like rusta bowers testified so notably about the lack of evidence of fraud in arizona and jack smith goes onto do the same in wisconsin and michigan. even the lawsuit filed to get the fake slate of electors in new mexico. >> over 10,300 ballots in georgia were cast by individuals who names and birth dates match georgia residents who died in 2020 and prior to the election. >> our information of public records we go through county by county shows potentially two, so far two. that could change, but it's not 10,000. >> in pennsylvania you had 205,000 more votes than you had voters. >> we took seriously every case that was referred to us no matter how fantastical and no matter how absurd and took every one of those seriously including these. >> in wayne county -- that's a great one. that's detroit. 174,000 ballots were counted without being tied to an actual registered voter. nobody knows where they came from. >> did anyone point out to you, did all the people complaining about it point out to you you actually did better in detroit that you did last time? i mean there's no indication of fraud in detroit. >> in the state of arizona over 36,000 ballots were illegally cast by non-citizens. >> no one provided me ever such evidence. >> so, luke, importantly the indictment makes clear that all those individuals gave trump the facts before they were asked by congress and others to testify to the facts. trump knowingly told all those lies. >> yeah, that's some montage you put together really laid out each claim. but, yeah, the indictment hammers home that point about trump's intent here, that it lays out in a series of bullet points everybody who told trump that there was no widespread fraud in the election, and it goes from mike pence himself down to the justice department officials through the top attorneys at the white house and down to even state level officials that we heard talking there where they really have the facts themselves, they've looked at all this stuff and done the audit and they say there's nothing here. and a lot of these guys took these claims seriously and investigate them, and there was just nothing there. and you hear him there speaking on the ellipse, he knows what he's saying is false and yet he repeats it anyway. and that hammers home again and again first i think by the january 6th committee in their presentation but then again in the indictment, and you're right that, like, certain parts of the indictment literally read like january 6th committee hearings. rusty bowers testimony is referenced. brad raffensperger's testimony is referenced. and i do believe that jack smith is sitting on a bunch more evidence, right? he has all the january 6th committee's materials, and he has all the interviews and documents that he got during their investigation, and he only put out 45 pages, right? so he has a lot more leftover. i don't know how he's going to use it. i don't know when, but i suspect he's sitting on many more things we have yet to see. >> we call that one heck of a tease in our line of work. it sounds like you agree with that analysis. >> absolutely. yes, look, he has a lot of really strong evidence from which to choose, and prosecutors don't put every fact in the indictment. they hold some things back. it may be that he's saving some of the most important evidence from insiders, from cooperators because to put that indictment would telegraph their cooperation and would put pressure or scrutiny on those individuals. you know, cases, nicolle, come down to facts and evidence much more so than lawyers. the only reason our hearings and our work was so successful was because of people like rusty bowers and bill barr and jeff rosen and donohue, people who came forward and provided the raw material of which to work. jack smith has same raw material and then some. so he's doing a good and careful job, but he's carved the play and that's what's deposited in trials. he has additional cards he hasn't yet shown that will be put on the table if this case goes to trial. and to be clear that's what we've been talking about from the beginning are these facts. that's where the focus ought to be. and finally those facts are going to play out in a federal courtroom. >> finally being the keyword. something we've talked about for years. tim, thank you for your candor in this world. i feel heavy as well, my friend. thank you for starting us off and for all our conversations now. luke broadwater, thank you for your reporting on this and for starting us off today. really important to have both of you. thank you. come we come back the now thrice -- the thrice indicted, twice impeached, liable for sexual assault ex-president will make his first appearance in court tomorrow. what we can expect from that arraignment and what we know about the judge overseeing this case and her track record of being tough on january 6th defendants. later in the broadcast the profound implications this case presents for the future of america's democracy. 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astrazeneca may be able to help. ask your doctor about breztri. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. tomorrow the ex-president, donald trump, will be arraigned in federal court in washington, d.c. this time for federal crimes the justice department has charged him with in connection with efforts to try to overturn his defeat in the 2020 presidential election. that arraignment is scheduled to take place around 4:00 p.m. eastern and be presided over by a magistrate judge. trump is expected to appear in person, will very likely plead not guilty. the district court judge who will preside over the case is tanya chutkan, a former assistant public defender appointed by former president barack obama. and this is not her first time dealing with ex-president donald trump. according to reporting in politico she ruled in the fall of 2021 that the house january 6th select committee could access reams of trump's white house files. this was a ruling subsequently upheld by an appeals court and left undisturbed by the u.s. supreme court. that evidence, call logs, memos, internal strategy papers, and more from the desks of trump's most trusted advisers became the backbone of the committee's evidence and shaped much of the public's understanding of his efforts to seize the second term he did not win. joining our conversation "the new york times" washington correspondent glenn thrush, former u.s. attorney joyce vance is with us. and former u.s. attorney glenn kirschner is with us. glenn thrush -- i love i have the two glenns, take us through the understanding of what will exactly happen tomorrow. >> well, from our understanding trump will fly down from bedminster, will arrive some time before this 4:00 date, and it will be actually very similar to what happened in miami. the question and we haven't really been able to get this answered is whether or not he'll even be subjected to the per fungtatory electronic fingerprinting done in miami. and as we were told in miami they have plenty of pictures of him. the question then becomes what will this magistrate do and what will be asked of this magistrate? interestingly enough in miami the magistrate goodman decided to throw a monkey wrench into this sort of agreement between the defense and prosecution over whether or not trump would be able to communicate with witnesses in the case who still worked in an and around him on this protective detail, in his political operation, on his personal staff. now we have these six unindicted coconspirators of whom we know who they are, and the question is what will the magistrate as they have the right to do question some of the provisions that will be part of the bond agreement because there needs to be a bond agreement for the former president to leave the courthouse and have his liberty. i think people should understand that. so the question is how -- how brief, perfunkatory will this be or will we have elements injected into this we can't anticipate? >> elements injected into it based on the pre-existing relationships of the six unindicted coconspirators, glenn, or sort of trumpian or both? >> yeah, i think what the government will ask in terms of the conditions of bond i think if we learned anything from the florida experience, they kept it fairly minimal. i suspect it will be the same. you know, as i learned last week from covering a plea agreement in delaware, a lot of this is in the hands of the presiding official. >> so let's turn to the presiding official, the judge who has this case, joyce, is judge chutkan. she's dealt with trump in the past. a lot of the january 6th cases have come before her. what do we know about her -- not to prejudge what she's done in the past -- but what should we go in eyes wide open understanding? >> right, so she is an obama oip appointee, nicolle. and it's important to remember no one becomes a federal judge unless a president pum one party or the other puts them in place. i think we can put that aside and look to her background and behavior on the bench. she's a highly estreamed judge. she also worked as a federal public defender. so she's sensitive to the rights of criminal defendants in the way some attorneys suggest a former prosecutor night not be when they become federal judges. she has that very different background. she also has been a harsh sentencer in some of the january 6th rier cases. in some cases she's imposed sentences higher than the sentences the government has asked for. she's been on the heavy end of these sentences. i'm unaware of any sentence she's imposed that's been successfully challenged on appeal. they'll all been well within her discretion as a federal judge. i think the one thing very interesting about her is she did consider this earlier case that you referred to. and she wrote in her opinion in that case that presidents are not kings. that seems to be such a vanilla statement, something that's so self-evident that it's not remarkable. it is only remarkable in the context of this former president. i think it's a wonderful baseline to go into this case with. she'll treat him fairly, she'll respect his rights. her former defense lawyer background will inform that, but she will not treat him unfairly or give him more deference he's entitled to just because he once occupied the oval office. >> such an important baseline. glenn, i want to read this from politico's reporting on her today. trump's new judge is a tough january 6th sentencer and lamenting the prospect of renewed political violence in 2024 and noting no one accused of orchestrating efforts to subvert the election have been held accountable. you made a very good point she told january 6th rioter robert palmer in the sentencing the people that encouraged you and rallied you to go and take action to fight have not been charged. so someone very familiar with prosecutions of conspiracies it sounds like. >> yeah, and she's just stating the obvious. you know, none of the organizers, the funders, the orchestrators of the insurrection, the hierarchy of the insurrection have been charged. she's stating the obvious. it will probably inspire donald trump's defense team to perhaps challenge her, file a motion to accuse, which in my opinion will no go nowhere. i happen to know tanya chutkan from her days as a criminal defense attorney. she was a long time defender in washington, d.c. when i was an assistant u.s. attorney trying murder cases. i would say she was a worthy adversary, but i should probably ask whether i was a worthy adversary to her because she was one heck of a criminal defense attorney. she was smart, she was strong. she was relentless. i would say she was fearless, but i would also say that i enjoyed trying cases against her because she was honest and ethical and honorable. i don't always say, nicolle, that it was a pleasure trying a case against a particular defense attorney. sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, but i am a big fan of her work when she was a public defender in d.c. i remain a fan of her work because i've had the opportunity to be in her courtroom in federal court observing her, presiding over criminal cases. i will say that before i retired from the department of justice i didn't happen to have any case that she was assigned, but i have been in her courtroom quite a bit. she remains a fair, independent jurist who will give donald trump a fair trial and importantly i believe she will give donald trump a speedy trial. frankly, i think she'll give we, the people, and the country a speedy trial. there's a phrase that we use when judges are very tough. i will say judge chutkan don't play. and donald trump probably ought not try to pull any shenanigans in judge chutkan's courtroom. >> interesting. as you're describing her as honest and true, i have this mental image. i've been on vacation for a couple of days but excuse the image of the wicked witch melting at the end of "wizard of oz." i'm going to ask you to stay through break because while i have you, i'm going to read through some of this extraordinary indictment now 25 hours old. i want to put some new allegations to all three of you. no one's going anywhere. quick break for us. we'll be right back. anywhere. quick break for us we'll be right back. what do we always say, son? 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[narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. everybody's back. glenn thrush, i want to read to you from page 42 of this new indictment. quote, at 7:01 p.m. while coconspirator one, that's rudy, the white house counsel called the defendant, donald trump, to ask him to withdraw any elections and allow the certification. the defendant refused. the attack on the capitol obstructed and delayed the certification for approximately six hours until the senate house of representatives came back into session separately at 8:06 p.m. and 9:02 p.m. respectively, came together in a joint session at 11:35 p.m. at 1:44 p.m. coconspirator 2 e-mailed the vice president's counsel advocating the vice president violate the law and seek further delay of the certification. coconspirator wrote, quote, i consider one more violation of the electoral count act and adjourned for ten days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations as well as to allow a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred hereimate at 3:41 a.m. on january 7th certified results of the 2020 presidential election in favor of biden. glenn thrush, what's so harrowing is how undeterred trump was. trump refuses after the violence. trump refuses after pence has been evacuated. secret service -- i traveled with the president for years. we never ran anywhere. secret service runs. they were undeterred. after the medieval combat has gone on, after capitol law enforcement officials are in the hospital, after one of trump's own supporters has been shot, after all that they take one more run at pence 11:35 p.m. this indictment makes clear that there was nothing that was going to stop their efforts to overturn the defeat. >> and mike pence just as he was that day is a dissenter of this indictment. it's pretty extraordinary. and pence as he was probably aware is out there today essentially saying in public what the indictment said, which is that the president repeatedly pushed him on this despite being given his opinion over and over again -- not his opinion, his fact-based counsel that he did not have the constitutional authority to do what the former president was asking him to do. and that is really what is extraordinary. and because this is -- in general so remarkable, and we've been somewhat inured to the details of this in part because of the january 6th committee did such a thorough job, i think people sort of have to reset and understand just how remarkable this is. i've covered the white house for ten years, and you would always try to find daylight between a vice president and a president. i mean that is sort of an evergreen story. to have this sort of conflict and to have the president continuing to push pence even when it was manifestly evident, i mean he called -- if i remember correctly he called pence on christmas day. they were exchanging pleasantries on christmas day and trump repurposed them into a lobbying call. trump is squarely right in the middle of this story and he's going to be squarely in the middle of this case. >> thank you all for joining us on this extraordinary day. it is amazing. jack smith has told us to read it and i have nigh chicken scratch all over it. it is not to be skipped over. ahead for us the last best chance to hold the disgraced ex-president accountable for seeking to overthrow a free and fair election and the profound implications this latest indictment will have on the future of american democracy. that conversation after a very short break. don't go anywhere. k. don't go anywhere. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (tony hawk) skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. only pay for what you need. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol. the brand i trust. (vo) crabfest is back at red lobster. when you can choose your crab, and one of three new flavors like honey sriracha... ...this is not your grandpa's crabfest... ...unless grandpa's got flavor. dayumm! crabfest is here for a limited time. welcome to fun dining. we certainly do not need to tell any of you, our viewers, that this comes at a contentious time for the country. americans seem more fractured now that at any point in our country's history. the only thing worse than trying to do something about donald trump's criminal conduct in this climate would be nothing about it. because if he's left unaccountable in these brazen in many instances public actions, he's shown us he will do it again and again. let's bring into our conversation award winning author and professor of african american studies at princeton university our friend eddie glaud, plus former national security advisor to the president ben rhodes. i know people feel sadness. when tay say it's a sad day for the country it's sad to read we have a president who did these things. i think when the rule of law snaps to life, it's an electric sign of life of the rule of law, the vibrancy of democracy. and i think it's a ballsy and brave thing to try to hold an ex-president accountable and say to the world no one's above the law in our country. what do you make of yesterday's indictment? >> well, you know, nicolle, the country is not founded on a particular ethnicity or religion or even limited geographic space. it's a nation of laws. we're rooted in documents. and the principles we imperfectly sought to live up to is the idea no one person is above the law in this country and there could be equal administration of justice. yes, it is a harrowing day when a form president is indicted for trying to overthrow our democracy, sure it is. but i think ultimately it's the validation of that idea, that no one person no matter how powerful, no matter how privileged, no matter how much they can enlist supporters and lawyers, no one person can avoid what came down on donald trump like a ton of bricks yesterday which was the truth in the form of a legal indictment. and he will have to face a jury of his peers just like any other citizen would. he's also going to have to potentially face a jury at the ballot box as well, which is what makes this even more extraordinary that the election itself is the best strategy for trying to stay out of prison. but i think at core we should not be afraid or embarrassed or nervous about the fundamental concept of this country, which is that no one is above the law including somebody like donald trump who has broken many laws in plain sight. >> you know, eddie, there are so many things that we've learned about -- some of us who aren't civics experts. i remember googling emoluments clause the first time. i started carrying, you know, pieces of the constitution around when he would claim repeatedly that article 5 let him do it, whatever he thought muller was investigating. there are so many parts of our country's system of doing things that he things he annihilated, not policy, but his desire to shield himself from policy, everything from making sessions cry to firing jim comey to attacking andy mccabe who opened a counterintelligence investigation into him, to maligning -- everything he does, he's largely attacking republicans who work for him, and all of it is because they veer too close to scrutinizing his conduct where there may be crimes unearthed. what do you make of where we are as a country today on that front? >> well, i'm not sure yet. i mean, i appreciate what ben just said -- we shouldn't be embarrassed, we shouldn't be afraid, but we shouldn't be naive. the country is deeply divided. there's a question around the legitimacy around government. there's a question around legitimacy of the judiciary among a large number of americans. donald trump is the consequence of us sticking our heads in the sand around the thick and complicated question about executive power. people were screaming from the top of their lungs, nicolle, if we did not come to terms with the presidency, we'd get someone into office that didn't hold to norms and all hell would break loose, and it happened. i have been sitting here since yesterday to figure out, how the hell did we arrive in this moment? i think i'm beginning to get a chance. it has something to do with the lies we refused to confront, the lies we told ourselves, that actually the big lie is parasitic on. >> say more, eddie. >> we didn't tell ourselves the truth about the tea party. we lied to ourselves. we said it was about economic anxiety. we knew what it was about. we didn't tell ourselves the truth -- we haven't told yourself thes truth about depth of hatred in our country, how profoundly segregated many of us are. we're mysteries to ourself. we didn't tell ourselves the truth. we didn't tell the truth about dark money, the real dangers it presents to our politics. and i think the combination of selfishness, hatred, greed, and how it's animated so much of our lives led us to throw up or vomit up this guy. and you know, and now we have to deal with the consequences of it, it seems to me. >> ben, one of those consequences is the election -- and i don't know that people have fully woken up to this -- will be about for trump, his freedom. people think the last two elections on trump's part were bat bleep crazy? you ain't seen nothing yet. >> yeah, nicolle. i worry a lot about this as well. the reality -- look, you have better legal experts than me. does seem like the possibility of these trials coming to a conclusion before the election are quite slim, which means if we're going to be in unprecedented territory, not only of a former president indicted but him running for president for keeping himself out of prison, that's the backdrop of the election. that's scary. we've seen in other systems around the world, often times you get the most extreme behavior from leader who is feel like their back is against the wall. in russia, the extreme version is vladimir putin thinks if he leaves power, he's going to end up dead. in this case we have donald trump thinking, if i don't win this election i could end up in prison, which means he's pulling out all the stops again. i'd like to end on a note of hope. i've come on here and issued dire warnings of democracy. the issue is, i think the healthiest scenario here, and i'm not just saying this as a democrat -- i'd like there to be nothing more than a sane republican party. this is a scenario in which the american people for a fourth consecutive election look over the abyss and say, no, we're not going there. we're not doing that, and they turn back trump at the ballot box. and then the justice system, presumably if the wheels of justice keep churning, render their verdict on trump himself. and we could find ourselves in a much healthier situation where yes, there's grievance, hatred, structural inequities, but the center will have held, and we'll have held not just in the legal system -- shouldn't just look to a jack smith to rescue us. >> right. >> but the american people themselves will have rendered judgment as well. >> this is what jamie raskin and liz cheney call going back to fighting with each other about policy stuff. a new return to normal order. we couldn't get through a day like today without talking to both of you, so thank you so much for spending some time with us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. the rec league's self-crowned pickleball king. do you just bow down? 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