show up. they're underway. good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. donald j trump is already facing serious legal trouble on multiple fronts. but he may soon be fighting a whole battle, other criminal investigations move closer to the possible indictment face. there are signs special counsel they could be closing in on charges related to efforts of the 2020 election. they posted this about smith. quote, i assume an indictment will be coming out in the day now. and we'll campaigning this weekend, he estimated the false claim, also known as a lie that any potential charges against him we politically motivated. >> they waited two and a half almost three years -- it's right the middle my presidential election. its election interference. it's a great badge of honor. because i am being indicted for you. >> meanwhile, the classified documents case is moving forward. it is now been four days since that superseding indictment was filed. this morning they knows codefendant, the mar-a-lago property defendant at his first court appearance in miami. -- >> carlos darrell bay go through tonight and $100,000 bond. no play during the first hearing in federal court in miami. prosecutors say he was gonna delete as part of a classified document case. telling the staff are quote, the boss one of the video deleted. mr. trump who now faces 40 counts said posting mar-a-lago tapes were not deleted and we're handed over. i'm told nobody to believe them. >> fani will -- not survive donald trump's latest attempt to just make it go away. today the judge flatly rejected trump's push to toss out the case. this weekend, she spoke out about the investigation and what the next steps could look like. >> i made a commitment to the american people, the most importantly of fulton county. we were gonna be making some big decisions regarding election investigation, that was gonna be before september 1st of 2023. i would hold true to that commitment. what was held, we are ready to go. >> with that let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel. and since beyoncé was in town this weekend, i had to stay with an all-star, all women panel to start the show off. my good friend caroline he is here, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter with the washington post. former missouri senator and msnbc political panelist, clear mccaskill. and tally for haiti and weinstein. the former federal and state prosecutor of new york. clerk of merrick garland and justice sandra day o'connor. academics gasquet, i turn to you first. trump's codependent are facing major -- twice a major and underlined, and highlight it and put two exclamation points. major documents, how big is a legal threat for them? how hard is it for prosecutors to work in the against trump? >> well, the superseding indictment is pretty extraordinary. what we have for the first time is, we have clear evidence that jack smith has witnesses that tied the effort to delete security tapes, which by the way would be illegal. just an effort to be subpoenaed. it's going directly to donald trump. maybe 24 minute phone call with the property manager within a day of him getting his subpoena. we then have them going down there special to talk to the property manager. skating it out like some kind of bizarre prime novel. and then the most important part, move the property manager talking to some of the i.t. department, explaining to him that this is between us but the boss wants the security cape sullied it. this is the very first time. we can imagine there's other witnesses that would give us direct evidence of donald trump and what he was doing and saying at the time. but this is the first time that we have a clear indictment with a direct witness that clearly has implicated donald trump absolutely directly. >> well, tally at this point it seems like donald trump's clearest or best offense is to just keep delaying this thing. and isn't actually working? the property manager somehow couldn't find himself a local lawyer? so, his arraignment has now been delayed until august 10th. to me, that seems crazy. am i wrong? >> well, you would think so stephanie. except it happened and that he had trouble finding a local lawyer. ultimately, there aren't that many moves left for delay. and the things for the vera, the charges against him seem to not implicate they need to see the classified document, that's really what makes these cases take some time. we did the most slow down. he doesn't seem to need that. i don't expect him coming into this case will be catastrophic, in terms of the delay that it's going to. bring there will be some, but it seems manageable to me. >> all right carole, talk to us about this mar-a-lago i t manager. the other person in the indictment what you know about him? -- >> this part that breaks, mason looking at jack smith. and what he has revealed for. -- the key subject of our investigation [inaudible] it's basically -- either we think they cooperate -- or we are giving you a -- [inaudible] to tell you where we charge you [inaudible] and both things [inaudible] and i.t. person revealed -- and their conversation was -- it was once -- deleted he can point carlos -- powerful -- as a scheme -- that has been unveiled -- the situation in which prosecutors take a small guy and put it on the -- who then is next -- it's a higher line -- and it is the individual providing information -- to very incriminating the people above him -- the intense fall -- believing that person can cooperate with talavera -- . >> clare let's talk about how this with the election, we are now waiting for both fani willis. she's not coordinating, does that surprise you? it did in some context, going to be in which case -- -- they are going to indict -- around fraud. >> sure, they'll be some instances. so, at some point, operations will be overlapping. one person, then'd -- they have gone. go to giuliani, and all the others. i do think that the federal case will be tried first. it's possible, sometime still, much more quickly, in my experience none in this instance. if fani willis. and -- >> they both in the same witnesses -- the what's happening -- >> absolutely, stephanie. there's been a statement from -- about not knowing the -- and actually kind of concerning, having been a state prosecutor. if you have an instance that and contemplate an incident -- end up in -- where the defendant -- to the two -- to the east -- so, in effect -- there is going to court -- and some -- sharing arrangements about coordinating. it's as you said -- on the -- they don't give the defendants -- they themselves. >> carol, what about -- fani willis -- they're getting -- decision on trump -- >> not been shy on giving dates. you know, she basically i've never -- in the first three weeks of august we will make our announcement. that's pretty specific. and i couldn'tag with what tali about it being concerning, that there is the allegation by phony madness that there is no coordination in discussion between the two teams. i find that striking for a number of reasons. one, the feds usually do in the -- desperately want to go first. and they usually do have quotations with other state investigators, either using their big federal shoulder to say hey, buddy, were in line first, are coordinating in some way, not how you prosecutor, not knowing what the information is that is at your back and call, and making sure there were witnesses don't have any discrepancies about what they've said. that can really be problematic. but i think fani willis has been toiling at this since basically february of 2021 and the department of justice did not pick up this ball at this time. did not pick it up in 2021. they rebuffed doing so in 2021, when a senior department of justice leader said, yeah, we're not going to look at these trump allies right now. we don't see a link between batteries six and a crime here. they rebuffed it again, the fbi did, in november of 2021. so, fani willis has a very good justification for wanting to go first. she's been toiling well the department of justice was trying to decide whether or not there is evidence of a crime. here the first time there is any prosecutor really digging into this issue was not until april of 2022. so, that's a pretty significant distance that she has on them. she's lap them, and she, by just basic rights, has a reason to want to go ahead and proceed. >> clare, let's do a compare and contrast and kind of stay on that. fani willis, in some instances, feel like she's been giving us a play by play over the last few months. carol just mentioned it, in the first few weeks i will do x. over the weekend, i am getting close to potential charges. meanwhile, jack smith, he wouldn't tell you what he ate for lunch yesterday. why does it behoove her, or does it, to share so much? why would she, when he certainly doesn't? >> well, every -- first of, all you have to understand the difference between the culture at doj and the culture in the state prosecutors offices. state prosecutors offices respond to 9-1-1 calls. they are dealing with the press day in and day out on violent crime. the vast majority of violent crime in this country is handled by local state prosecutors, not by federal prosecutors. so, they are much more facile in terms of interacting with the press, because they have to. people want to know what's going on when someone is -- when there's a murder, or there's a shooting. so, i think she has been more open. i think the point that carroll made about how long she's been working at this certainly comes down her side of the ledger. the problem that we're going to have, regardless of how much they're talking to each other, whoever goes first, those witnesses are going to take the stand and they're going to give their testimony. the next trial, all of that testimony is available to the next prosecutor for possible cross-examination on any slipup, any discrepancy, any misstatement that might be made. so, it's really going to be who've fani willis if she does go first to make sure that her witnesses are very prepared, have gone over the previous statements they've made, and our prep and comfortable on the stand, so they don't get nervous and make a mistake that in fact jack smith, that they have to own in the next trial. >> tali, what do you think. >> well, i agree with everything claire said. and i would also add that state prosecutors are almost always elected. so, they are also more in the habit of selling themselves and interacting with the press to do that. so, that might explain some of the different approaches here as well. you know, we're talking a lot about who starts first. but it seems to me that trump is almost sure to make a motion in the georgia case to remove that case to federal court. and he's tried this in other places. i think it might have a better chance of success in georgia. but whether or not it succeeds, it could have the effect of slowing her down, such that if she's tied up in that litigation, it would make sense for the federal trial to happen first. so, i don't think it's just about who gets out of the gate. we'll have to see how each of the litigations plays out. >> clare, what do you think mark meadows is really doing right now? how does he fit into all of this? >> well, that's what i am waiting for. what i want to see is the witness list for fani willis and jack smith. i think chris christie said the other day that mark meadows was behaving like a federal witness when he is declining to talk to anyone when he was caught out on the streets, i think, by an nbc reporter. it is hard for me to believe that mark meadows has not cooperated and given them what actually was going on, both with the fake electors, trying to fraudulently overturn the georgia election, with everything trump was doing and saying. and i think mark meadows, frankly, mark meadows and mike pence are the ones who have the most information about the culpability of donald trump. and if they were really threatened with potentially going to prison, especially mark meadows, i think he was really vulnerable, it's not going to surprise me that he ends up being the star witness at all. >> i just want to know, what does mark meadows spend his days doing? he spent years as very powerful and influential republican in the public. i don't know where he makes his money now, and who he is spending his time with. carl lennon, tali farhadian weinstein, unfortunately for you, claire, i'm not letting you leave yet. but ladies, i will see you soon. thank you for joining. when we come back, we're going to follow the money. there is a new legal defense fund for trump's allies legal bills, and the former presidents pack has already spent millions of dollars to defend him and few others this year alone. we're just halfway through the year. and later, more bad news for ron desantis means the debate stage could make or break his campaign. robert gibbs and mike murphy are here, the 11th hour just getting underway on the start of a big big week. ♪ ♪ ♪ big w unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. 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(announcer) aerotrainer's ergodynamic design and four patented air chambers create maximum muscle activation for better results in less time. it allows for over 20 exercises. do the aerotrainer super crunch, push ups, aero squat. it inflates in 30 seconds. aerotrainer is tested to support over 500 pounds. lose weight, look great, and be healthy. go to aerotrainer.com. >> donald trump's team is that's a-e-r-o trainer.com. getting ready to launch a new way to help his allies have been caught up in his legal troubles. the new york times reports trump team is creating a legal defense fund to cover some of the legal bills involving his up lawyers and associates. this is on top of trump's pack that has reportedly spent at least $20 million on legal bills for trump and others this year. let's welcome pulitzer prize investigator reporter and tax expert david cay johnston, he's also distinguished visiting spectator at syracuse's college of law, and wrote three books on trump himself, and former missouri senator claire mccaskill. we would not let her leave, so she is sticking around. senator, you're also a former prosecutor. here is what i need you to help me understand, these trump allies, i'm guessing, these individuals are people that the prosecution would like to flip on trump. is it not a massive conflict of interest that he's basically, like, yo, yo, yo, buddies, i'm gonna pay your legal bills. we're talking about potentially just employees at his company who might not have a whole lot of free funds for giant legal bills. >> well, first of all, it's perfectly legal for a corporation to pay the legal bills for their employees. it's legal. it doesn't mean that it's not fraught with potential ethical problems, and it doesn't stink. we all remember cassidy hutchison. when she was represented by people who want it a certain outcome in the case, she actually shaded the truth in a deposition. and remember, she got her own lawyer and she came forward and said, hey, here's exactly what happened. so, you can be influenced if you have lawyers who care more about the guy who's paying their bill then what happens to you. not ethical for a lawyer to do that, but it happens. so i would, if i were ever in trouble, i would certainly want to be sure that my lawyer was only worried about me and not worried about the guy who potentially was facing the most criminal liability in the whole thing. >> david, if i were to give money to a politician, in theory, i would think, yeah, it's because i want them to get reelected, it's because i care about this campaign. do you think that the people who are donating to trump's pack, do you think they know or care that the money is just going to pay this guy's legal bills, a guy who touts himself superrich, and now his donors, small dollar and big, are paying his legal bills? >> no, i don't think they're worried about it one bit. and you know, the latest report from one of trump's arms shows that they spent $108,000 on milan's hair pressure. a little hard to connect that to the costs. it's listed, by the way, as a payment for political strategy. but you know, it wasn't that long ago that donald claim to be worth over ten billion dollars, which if he only earned a 5% annual return, which would mean it has an income over $500 million a year. and why would he need to raise money for his own or anyone else's legal defense if he had that kind of money? of course, he doesn't. [laughter] >> well man, is there an argument to be made that this legal defense fund is the one time that trump is actually being straight with people about where their money is going? >> well, you could make that argument. let me suggest a new idea here. the newest defendant, carlos de oliveira, is someone who clearly is not a sophisticated person, not a wealthy person. donald is paying whatever lawyer is going to represent him in the case, at least so far. but you know, people could donate to a fun for him if he decides to turn states evidence. and just like you see gofundme campaigns, and he wouldn't have to rely on donald's lawyers, who as senator mccaskill pointed out, are not likely, despite the requirements of the professional code of ethics, to put the interests of this low level employee ahead of donald trump's interests. >> well, clare, what about saving face, right? trump loves to surround himself with 24 karat gold of awesomeness. doesn't it look cheap or trumpists that his own team is turning a legal defense fund for these guys? if he's such a baller, wouldn't he write the check himself? just doing this and creating this conflict of interest has to be annoying or upsetting to jack smith? >> listen, i adore you, but i gotta tell you, have you, have you followed donald trump? this guy don't want to pay anybody. he doesn't want to pay the people who worked on his buildings in new york. he doesn't want to pay anybody. he is all about just himself. he would rather grift and skate of his daughters. and by the way, jack smith has looked at this, whether or not he is committed fraud in some of the ways that he has solicited funds, talking about a big lie, and talking about how the election is stolen and whether or not there was fraudulent inducement to give him money. and you know, if you look at the list of things that this pac has paid for, i mean, he's right. melania trump won't even be seen with him. but his donors are paying for her hairstylist. that's crazy town. that's just crazy town. >> david, what do you think? clare is exactly right. donald trump, and it is, it's not being insulting, he has a long history of not paying. but does this make him appear so small, to be going to the public, a guy who touts himself so rich, you know, rolling in it, to say, hey, open up your checkbook, and write a check for my voice here? it makes him look -- >> well, one of the things i learned writing about inequality in america for the last 30 years is a lot of people can't distinguish between people who make a quarter million dollars a year and a quarter billion dollars a year. it's just the numbers are so big, they're meaningless to people. but i do think politically trump's vulnerable on this very point. why are you raising money like this? we thought you were worth ten billion dollars. you are supposed to be the modern midas, everything you touch turns to gold. and on the other hand, the low level employees in the mar-a-lago case, the documents case, which, remember, started out not so much as obstruction of justice as stealing national security documents and lying about the possession of them, these are not people who know where to find lawyers to represent them. they'd end up, you know, probably opening up the yellow pages. so, if there is a public interest here, it's in people finding a way to get lawyers for these low level people, who it's unlikely to have any idea that they were committing crimes, they were doing what they boss wanted. >> his boss, he's not a supreme leader. we all have to be responsible for our own actions, or perhaps donald trump would say, yeah, i'm so rich and i want to stay so rich, so i'm going to ask all you people to open your wallets, and alas, his donors do. it claire mccaskill, i adore you as always, great to see you, david cay johnston, thank you for being here. when we come back, we are talking trump's 2024 rivals tiptoeing around attacking the one person they have to defeat, donald trump. so, my question, why are you even running if you're not going for the guy in front? we are going to get into it, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. want your clothes to smell freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes? try downy light in-wash freshness boosters. it has long-lasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. finally, a light scent that lasts all day. downy light! 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[laughing] book a get-away-from-work trip. use onekeycash. order some sides. do not disturb. join one key to earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, (warehouse ambience) introducing togo's new french dip sandwiches featuring fresh artisan bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today >> the republicans just don't only at togo's fight the way -- they're good people, but they don't fight the way they're supposed to fight. the others are dirty sick players, and the republicans are very high class. they've got to be a little bit lower class, i suspect. they sit back, and they say, they have other priorities, we have to look at other things. any republican that does an act on democrat fraud should be a mediately primaried, and get out, out! >> in pennsylvania this weekend, donald trump made time to threaten members of his own political party, saying if they do not back him up aggressively, they should be primaried. well, recent polling indicates the republican voters have the former president's back in that thought. trump has a 37 point lead over his closest challenger. back with me tonight, robert gibbs, former obama campaign senior adviser and white house press secretary, and michael murphy, veteran republican strategist and co-director of the center for the political future at the university of southern california, both host the podcast hacks on tap. okay, this is what i desperately want to know, and michael, i ask you first. donald trump has this huge lead. but aside from chris christie, asa hutchison, and a little bit of will hurd, none of his rivals will even criticize him. so, if they won't, are any of these people even running? because he's the person they need to beat. >> right, but a couple things quickly, first, careful of these summer primary polls nationally. most of these polls don't mean anything until after the first contests, which will be the iraq caucus. right now, hillary clinton was beating barack obama in the national summit polls. the cake isn't baked. yet but you make a good point, they gotta beat them in iowa in new hampshire. if trump wins iowa new hampshire, he's the nominee. right now, they're saying with a ginger touch, because they don't want the tribal backlash it sounded like in the new york times, which is posing a republican primary, they're saying, look, he can't beat biden. time to move forward, which is the right thing, but they have to sharpen that attack. if he goes down like chris christie, who i'm thoroughly enjoying, you might do a little damage to trump. but in the modern republican primary, you do nothing to win yourself. so, i think you will see it start to notch up. and it will never be the direct assault that i think people emotionally want who don't like trump, but the argument that he is a loser, he's the one guy biden can beat, and he's got flaws, it's time to move on. that message will be sharpened, i believe. it has to be, for them to win iowa and new hampshire. >> robert, what do you think? >> well, mike and i have had this argument now for about a year and a half. and i think in the new york times polling, i'm winning that argument. look, mike is right about don't get too enamored with national pulling this far out. but we should understand, nobody, nobody in the history of primaries, has lost a race they were this far ahead in these polls. are there hurdles? yes, mike mentioned them. in 2016, donald trump didn't win iowa. he really, you know, iowa is a big test for him, it's a big test for anybody. but to be clear, donald trump was weakest coming out of the 2022 elections, and he's gotten stronger each and every day since then. his competitors are falling farther and farther behind. to your point, stephanie, i don't know, at some point somebody is going to have to decide they're going to take this nomination from donald trump. because right now, they're trying to out-trump trump, and that hasn't worked in 2016. and i doubt that it's going to work this year, either. >> and meanwhile, michael, when you talk about this first republican debate, trump's out there basically saying i'm going to watch it. i'm not going to show up. and i'm going to watch it so i can look at them all and figure out who i'm auditioning to be my vp. if they do -- if none of them come back and punch him between the eyes, he is making them look like absolute punks, and they're taking it. >> yeah, no, they have to show more edge. again, it's bad strategy in a republican primary to go for trump's throat. what the message is is is grandpa needs a gold watch entertainment, we can't let him go lose to joe biden. and that message does have some traction. in iowa and new hampshire, where the republican voters are starting to learn a lot more about the tim scotts and the ron desantis's and the other candidate, maybe doug burgum, those are on television, trump is not at 50%. and a lot of the private polling and seeing, he's got a third of the vote, and everybody knows it. so if your dog food that every dog has tasted, a one in three year meeting, you've got the most big share. but it's a dangerous time. still, there's gotta be a star coming out of the debate. my guess is trump will hold a rally at the same moment, and try to compete with the debate. but i'm not writing off that trump's ego will not let him let this go by. and if they're all afraid to take him on, and trump shows up, that is the bigger win for trump, because he does look a little chick and not being there. so, i'm not sure he will be there, but you're right, something has to happen as a debate. and if you're one of the candidates without a lot of money, like nikki haley, you really need something to happen, or you're going to wind up like scott walker did in 2016, starting in front. heck, he led iowa pulls in the start of the summer in 16 in the caucus, and in even make it a christmas. so, there are a lot of high stakes for these contenders to get in the race now. i agree with robert about that. >> robert, do you think trump believes he doesn't need to be on the debate stage, because he doesn't need to be shoulder to shoulder with second right candidates? or do you think he's afraid to be on equal footing, i.e., he only likes to do interviews in rooms filled with adoring trump fans, or speak at rallies that are packed with maga? >> well, i agree with mike that there's probably a part, probably a large part of trump's ego that wants to be there, and wants to be on that stage and wants to be the center of that stage. i think though that he's smart enough to understand that right now, he's so far ahead, that he'd be a pincushion in this debate. so, why not skip this debate and let your next closest opponent, that quite frankly has had at best uneven time in this race in ron desantis, who continues to lose altitude from where he was six months ago, let him be the pincushion. let him catch all the arrows. because quite frankly, to get to trump, somebody's got to be in second place. and there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be in third or below try to jump ahead of ron desantis, trying to land that blow, trying to get that one or two viral lines that come out of this debate. i think trump is smart to skip this one. it's sort of he thinks of it as the minor leagues, let these guys go attack each other, and i'll be ready in october and beyond. i think it's a pretty smart strategy, and it's one that's probably going to get ron desantis a lot of action, whether he likes it or not. >> we're out of time. but i don't know about that pincushion. this, by the way, the way most of those candidates are behaving right now, it seems like if they were onstage with him, they would be french braiding's hair, not attacking him. maybe not chris christie. robert gibbs, michael murphy, great to see both of you what. when we come back, we're going to get very serious, russia launching a very deadly attack on president zelenskyy's hometown. that is no accident. we're going to look at where ukraine's counteroffensive stands, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ h ho people always ask me, "kevin, what does being the ceo of cashbacking mean to you?" the way that i see it, if you're buying it, flying it, or wining n' dining it, then you gotta be cashbacking it. 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[bones cracking] ♪ (tense music) ♪ one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic. just one aleve. 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief. aleve. who do you take it for? ♪ ♪ ♪ >> the kremlin is retaliating against ukraine, after a new wave of drone attacks in russia. nbc's richard engel has more. >> with two missiles launched ukraine tonight, russia destroyed much of an apartment building full of civilians, killing a ten year old girl and her mother and president zelenskyy's hometown. it's unclear if the strike, which ukrainians described as terrorism, was retribution, but it came just 24 hours after drones exploded in moscow for the third time in days, hitting high-rises in downtown and making president putin look weak and the capitol vulnerable. russia blamed ukraine. zelenskyy, while not claiming responsibility, gave his most direct admission yet of cross border strikes. >> [speaking in a non-english language] but >> gradually, the war is returning to russian territory, he said. and ukraine, russian troops are battling an intensifying ukraine offensive, and doing it without some of their most experienced troops. [sound of artillery] mercenaries from the wagner group are off the battlefield after their leader, yevgeny prigozhin, launched a short-lived mutiny. putin branded prigozhin, once a trusted date, a traitor. but then cut a deal with him. the potential reasons why are now becoming more clear. tonight, prigozhin posted that wagner troops are, for the moment, in belarus, awaiting orders. and video from belarus shows the mercenaries training special forces. poland, a nato ally across the border, is on high alert, just in case. >> with me now to discuss, retired four star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, a decorated combat veteran of vietnam and a former battlefield commander in the persian golf. general, talk to us about these drone strikes. are they symbolic, or are they a real threat? >> well, i think the war is on a vast scale. we're talking about 1000 kilometer front. the russians have run out of ideas, they've run out of leadership. they've now reverted to terrorism attacks. they're attacking essentially the green production facilities. they destroyed 60,000 tons of grain, went after president zelenskyy's hometown. none of this is even vaguely likely to change the course of the real struggle. and zelenskyy, i think, properly has said russia's no longer off limits. remember, moscow is only 310 miles from the ukrainian border. so, he's been hitting their capital and in broad daylight with very slow moving sort of fundamentally uncomplicated drones. it's a very dangerous moment. but i think the big problem, stephanie, that you and i need to talk about is the counter offensive is stalled. the ukrainians have committed their reserves, many of them, they've poured thousands of troops into the battle. the russians are fighting more effectively. they've used millions of minds. they're using drones, so, there is very little opportunity to achieve any kind of tactical surprise. and they're using massive artillery. we need to step up the fight and support ukraine with -- missiles, or deep strike operations. >> what are your thoughts on these missile strikes on presence lynskey's hometown? six people were killed there. and it seems like we have seen this tactic many, many times, and it always proves to be the deadliest for civilians. >> yeah, well, i think part of it is we've got to remember a lot of these cruise missiles being fired from russian air force bombers well back in russia. they used to be fire from over belarus. a lot of them are coming out of the black sea off of russian naval vessels. they're not very precise. they're using anti aircraft missiles for some of these attacks. so, i think they're basically aiming at population centers. but there's no pretension they're going after a strategic military strike. this is sheer terrorism, violation of the laws of war. and ukrainians have taken a tremendous pounding. 350 some odd cultural sites have been destroyed since the war started. as you mention, it's primarily been a tremendous lethal cost to civilian populations. >> you said in the past that ukraine must have major military success this summer. what happens if they don't? >> well, i think it's going to be a huge problem foru underscoe that. you know, if i had to bet on who is going to come out of the lone horse race and when, it's going to be ukraine. the russian economy is still in terrible safe. they're an international pariah. he's got tremendous dissension on the home front. hundreds of thousands of russian boys ran for their lives during the last mobilization. we've added finland and probably sweden to the nato lineup so that the area in which they have to be concerned as broad and enormously. putin is in trouble. and his allies are north korea, to a limited extent china, iran, and that pretty much sums it up. so, they're in trouble. but ukraine, politically one would argue, the european union, nato, the united states, as to maintain massive economic humanitarian and military support. over time, we tend to lose interest. and of course, you've got this massive threat of growing opposition from trump supporters to supporting the ukrainians. >> general, you always make us smarter on a very, very important topic that we must keep in focus. i'm really grateful you joined us tonight. >> good to be with you. >> when we come back, i'm just going to say, you must not go to sleep, you must not go to the bathroom, you must not get a drink, you must stay up for this one, a wave of support for dozens of special needs kids. and it wasn't just magic for those kids, it's a reminder, that by doing good, it's good for all, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ try nervive nerve relief from theorelieve nerve , and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? 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