the congressional black caucus, joyce beatty. american voices starts right now. thank you, rev, hello everyone, i am slam stein in, in for alicia menendez. we begin tonight with the fight for reproductive freedom, a fight that might slip away in a matter of weeks. today, from coast to coast, people are parse to think the leaked draft opinion that shows that the supreme court justices are set to overturn roe v. wade. the move will roll back the constitutional right to abortion that women have relied on for five decades. >> a lot of people did not realize is that everyone loves someone that has had an abortion. there is so much shame, stigma talking about sex, pregnancy and health in general this country. when we share these stories, we open up the conversation and make people realize that abortion is a part of our reproductive freedoms that helps create our families, and is critical to this nation. >> this map shows with the nation could look like if roe goes. each state would make its own rules, restricting or protecting reproductive freedom. it creates way more questions than answers. how far can states go to punish women. louisiana is exploring one approach. state republicans are crafting a bill that would make abortion murder. lawmakers used a baptist preacher to help make the law. the end of roe would also sparked the new battle over abortion pills, as states would work to stop access to the medication through mail. republicans are even trying to stop people seeking reproductive freedom out of the state. missouri lawmaker has floated the idea to sue anyone that crosses state lines for abortion care. joining me now to discuss the unknown possibilities of a post row america, irin carmon and web rhiannon, the course of a podcasts. >> irin, let's start with you, republican lawmakers are competing to become the quote, most pro-life station in the states. how it is really transform america? >> sam, i think this is a moment that they have been preparing for, not just in the last few days or weeks, but for almost 49 or 50 years since roe v. wade. states have been competing to pass a vehicle that would do what the draft opinion appears to do, which is to overturn roe v. wade. there are still a lot of questions because a lot of these states either have their pre-row ordinances on books that make abortion illegal, or they have trigger bands that would go into effect the moment the roar is overruled. different states have gone far in different ways. even the draft opinion assertion that this will just go to the states, this would create a national settlement of a conflicting issue, i think it is manifestly untrue if you look at what is already happening in the states. it is that blue states are beginning to start legislating more protections for abortion providers and patients that are coming from out of state, while red states are trying to tie in the vice around their citizens. there is a lot of open questions about what happens, for example, in a state like missouri when a lawmaker proposes to restrict someone's movements next to a state like illinois, where protective measures are being put in place to protect abortion patients and see access expended. what happens if someone goes from missouri to illinois? to what extent will they be surveilled and criminalize? to what extent will the support system around them be sued and criminalized? this is already happening in texas right now. i think we are in for a very predictable mess, in which peoples lives will be directly affected the moment that the final opinion of the court is issued. >> a predictable mess, that sums it up. i want to pick up on one element that you mentioned there, the scramble a blue states to deal with the fallout of this. couldn't ward be done to do more before we got to this point, from democratic members in congress. can you speak to how we got to this moment, politically? >> absolutely, yes, more could have been done. reproductive advocates, especially in the south have been sounding the alarm for the past 30 or 40 years, saying that abortion laws in their states are getting more and more restrictive. we need to remember that this is the culmination, the decision to overturn roe, is the culmination of a decades long project by the conservative legal movement. conservative thinkers developed methods of constitutional interpretation, like originalism and textualism, so that conservatives could get the results that they wanted in the courts. they designed a whole ideology in opposition to roe v. wade and these other civil rights gains of the mid-century. this is a results oriented framework. conservatives do not want to expand rights. they want rigid hierarchies in society to stay the same. they do not look at the constitution and see the promise of equality and liberty there. they do not want to realize those goals. they see a document that was written by slave owning, white male property owners. they decided that we should be interpreting that document in the exact same way that those slave owning, white male property owners interpreted it as it was written. this is a threat to win in, to gay people, to trans people, to disabled people, to racial minorities and non citizens. >> let me pick up on that, rhiannon, let's say this decision does come down, as expected, what then is the legal path forward in the abortion rights community to try to ensure that some swarm of reproductive rights will still happen in united states? >> i think codify roe v. wade in federal legislation is a good first step. i worry about this conservative super majority in the supreme court that is likely to overturn that legislation. that just shows what is needed is actually institutional reform of the courts. anything like court packing, like term limits for justices, all these mechanisms -- abolishing the filibuster, all these mechanisms would ensure that if the right to abortion is codified into federal law that we can actually protect the legislation. >> irin, i want to focus in on what you worry about. a missouri lawmaker is making it illegal for women seeking abortion out a state. you are seeing a web of different state laws coming to, talk about this one specifically. how could something like this be enforceable? >> i think it is an open question. that is why i raised surveillance. we know that people have been criminalized for the pregnancy outcomes before in sporadic ways, when prosecutors tried to make them into a cause. for example, in indiana, a woman was in jail for more than a year when she was charged with fetal homicide for taking abortion pills that she ordered through the mao. it took a long time to get her out even though roe v. wade was still in place, and abortion was illegal. one of the ways that she was surveilled is through her internet records. i reported on previous testimony from the state health director in missouri, who was at the time, he was tracking the menstrual periods of planned parenthood patients. as health director, he had access to that. stated ortiz, law enforcement authorities, do have access to health information. all of this is with abortion being legal. it is a question of how far the state that passes these kind of laws would be willing to surveil those that go out of their borders. another aspect that we are already seeing, and whichever port it on in the magazine today, abortion lines, which are lifelines for patients in texas, where a six-week ban has been in place for several months, there is a campaign of legal harassment trying to subpoena them for their records, to see who helped them. anyone who is six bested of aiding and abetting of an important patient could be sued under liability. it is a question of how far they are willing to go. they certainly had different kinds of tools. more often than not, the future of abortion access in states that are hostile on the books to abortion will be through self manage abortion, or pre-travel at a state. there are many tools that a state could use if they wanted to go after their citizens to track their movements and to check the records of anyone that helps them. >> them irin and rhiannon, so many more questions, but we have to leave it there. thank you both for joining. coming up next, he said trump's behavior in office left him speechless, former disciplined secretary new memoir provides new details. we will talk about it right after the break. plus, abortion providers across the country are bracing themselves for a post bro world. we hear from one woman in texas about what that world will look like. later, the road draft decision marks a turning point for the nation's highest court. we will talk to justice ginsburg about how the court's legitimacy could be affected forever. legitimacy could be affected . timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. forever. this is my zen time. it's... people say, 'well, what are you? 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(vo) for every customer. current, new, everyone. to show the love. so many people are overweight now and asking themselves, "why can't i lose weight?" for most, the reason is insulin resistance, and they don't even know they have it. conventional starvation diets don't address insulin resistance. that's why they don't work. now, there's golo. golo helps with insulin resistance, getting rid of sugar cravings, helps control stress and emotional eating, and losing weight. go to golo.com and see how golo can change your life. new book from former top guy at that's g-o-l-o.com. the pentagon is shedding more light on donald trump's fitness to serve as president. former secretary of defense, mark esper details the chaotic ears. his new memoir, a sacred oath. trump made him, quote, speechless. it raises a question. why not resign and tell the world what you know in the moment? new york times, which -- claims esper did not resign because he quote, believe the president was surrounded by so many yes men and people whispering dangerous ideas to him that a loyalist would have put in esper's place. esper also planes a picture of the trump white house obsessed with winning reelection, so much so that quote, every decision is tethered that objective. that serves as a warning about wet -- should he run again in 24 to 4 and win? the book shows he's likely to install an entire cabinet of yes men. trump has endorsed loyalist to run in his future elections. a trend of election denying candidates running two -- joining me now is too gentle -- national reporter from the washington post. thank you so much for being there. mark esper earned the nickname jesper of going on with the decisions. he was worried he might actually replace him if he resigns. what is the actual reality of the situation, what was your understanding of their relationship and how he handled trump in the moment? >> yeah, i covered secretary esper fairly closely. to me, his position was often knowing that there was no good options. on one hand, yes, there are folks who referred to him as jesper. in the other hand, when he did pushback, some of which was public and some which was not. that created a backlash. where you really ended up with, particularly after that moment in june when you had the protesters and secretary esper and general milley and others who were in the square outside the white house, that created a huge uproar. after that, the period of the next few months, he wasn't fired, he wasn't removed, but the things he said made it clear that he would be after the election. >> now, he referenced lafayette, that was one crazy moment of the trump years. he reveals in his book something that was not public, but equally -- he spoke to cbs about this. a moment in which trump asked about which bonding drug cartels in mexico. let's see what he said. >> the president pulls me aside on at least a couple of occasions and says okay maybe we have the military to shoot missiles into mexico. >> shoot missiles into mexico for wet? >> to go after the cartels. we had this private discussion where i would say, mister president, you know, i understand the motive. because he was very serious about dealing with drugs in america. i get that, we all understand. but i had to explain to him, we can't do that. it would violate their national law. it would be terrible for our neighbors to the south. it would impact us in so many ways. when we do this instead. >> you politely pushback on the idea. to president trump really say no one would know it was us? >> yes. >> well, that sounds like a bad movie plot, but it is true it appears. what do we make of this? how rule real was this idea? >> obviously, launching any kind of missiles into mexico and expecting that they wouldn't be seen or wouldn't be noticed is outlandish. it is simply not possible. i think it goes to show the challenging position the pentagon leadership was in general. there were numerous ideas that were floated that didn't reach the level of public scrutiny. they were able to push back on more privately. both then and now, i find myself struggling to assess, fairly what the best choices were. yes, you could resign in protest. that is something that a number of trump administration officials have talked about. but once you do that, you don't know who will replace you. i feel like that is a consideration that they have to seriously consider as well. >> an impossible situation in some sports. thank you so much for your time on this side, i appreciate it. coming up next, sinking ships and taking out russian generals. loose intelligence is helping ukrainians fight back behind the scenes. today risk housing direct accomplice between the u.s. and russia? 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what we know about the vacuum? is how they doing at this time? >> we won't know that for another two or three days. the last batch of evacuations took two days to travel short distances to zaporizhzhia, which is just a little bit to the north. there is rings of checkpoints or wrong mariupol. anyone who is evacuated goes through a series of russian checkpoints and then ukrainians checkpoints. it's one of the things that underlines the lack of trucks a month's one of the people who remain there fighting and their ability to evacuate. they don't believe the russians will let them out. we don't know how many people remain in the steel plant, we think it's a few hundred. we know that many of those folks are wounded. the international red cross, which facilitated this evacuation of what we think are the remaining civilians is working on getting doctors and soldiers out of that steel plant. i don't know that anyone has high expectations, especially as you said, victor, they are looming here in about 24 hours. there is alert across the country, sam, of cities that are rolling out curfews. the government is asking people to mind the area of sirens. it's active across the country. there are four cruise missiles fired into odessa in the last 12 hours. there were hits all along the eastern front, according to ukraine officials. it is certainly a country that is going on a heightened state of alert, even though it's wartime in much of the country. a heightened state of alert for monday. sam? >> yeah, we're all looking out for the may 9th date. kyle kyle, stay safe, thank you very much. u.s. officials confirm u.s. appellants help ukraine sink a russian warship last month. the vessel was a warship of you -- black sea fleet. it was one of the most embarrassing close to putin. president biden and defense officials on friday stress that recent news reports about u.s. intelligence sharing with ukraine have been quote, counterproductive. that, according to administration officials who spoke to nbc news. let's bring in retired general, he is the wilson center global fellow at the keenan institute. -- between 2012 and 2014. he is also the author of the book, swimming the volga. the u.s. officers experience in pre-putin russia. this week there's been those reports that the u.s. provided. ukraine with intel that help their military take out russian generals. what do you make of those reports? what do you make of biden calling the media sharing counterproductive? >> i am a career u.s. army military intelligence officer. for 34 years. we have had, with our analyzing partners always sharing relationships that would rev up or ramp up in an event of crisis. ukraine is one of those partners. , so, savagely and unprovokedly attacked ten weeks ago by the russian federation. and fighting for its access dental life. in the visceral true way. so yes, the united states and other countries i must emphasize are doing the best they can to provide intelligence to ukraine. in order for it to fight for its survival. there's nothing -- about that. that is the way it is done. you just don't get in two sources and methods. yes, i think it was irresponsible by and named officials to start talking about the specifics of what was shared and provide it. the intelligence sharing is a good thing. it is right. the circumstances are right. we shouldn't talk so much about it. >> i mean, that is, in essence, what pentagon press secretary was stressing. underlying. and he said the u.s. does provide ukraine with information by russian units. except u.s. did not provide specific targeting information, for when ukraine took out that ship. it sounds to me like you're saying that probably not, we probably did provide that targeting information, we just didn't talk about. it is that? right >> listen, i don't know the back story on this. the ukrainians already have a pretty refined intelligence corps based on its eight years of combat and before. i can't tell you what was provided or not. it would be the ukrainians who put together those pieces that are coming in all over and do the act with -- the action, the targeting, do the attack. i think that is the key point. fair enough. let's switch gears a tiny bit. we are getting close to that may 9th victory day. you attended that in russia in 2013. you boycotted it in 2014 following the invasion tell me why this day is so important to vladimir putin, especially with this we're not going as he had hoped. >> 77 years on may 9th, there was the first victory day parade. the soviets, we were part of it, but the soviets paid a butchers bill in the second world war. they call the great patriotic war. no one knows the numbers. 22 million, 27 million, no one knows. this is a deep, emotional, and i use the word again, this real moment in their history. it is not just the russians, it is the soviets, the other 14 republics including ukraine and belarus, kazakhstan, that also sacrificed during it. the russians lost the most people. it is deep. what's victory day is, as it is celebrated every year, and i was there in 2013, in moscow for 14, is both a celebration of that victory, and u.s. troops have marched in that parade in better days. it is also a deep commemoration. you see with the march of the 10,000 immortals who are russian veterans after being hunted by their children and metals that go through the red square at the end. this is a big deal. it means a lot. but it is also twisted into a muscular show of force and for messaging, which is what we probably are going to see on monday. last point, when i talk about celebrations and commemoration, this time it is different, and now you go back to 45. it is existential. the regime feels like an existential threat. things could come crumbling down. i believe they will do all they can to rally, as stalin did in 1945, the russian population to mother russia. >> foreboding words there, retired brigadier general, peter zwack, thank you for joining us. next, how the leaked road decision could impact the midterm elections. later, i will speak with a former clerk to justice ruth bader ginsburg, about the long term implications of the leak row draft on a high court. implications of the lea life as we know it cannot exist without nad. row draft on a high court. as we age, nad can decrease by as much as 50%. and energy production that starts in your cells. address one of the root causes of aging with tru niagen, researched by the world's top scientific institutions. here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier, so please don't bring it up. bring what up, kayak? 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>> initially, republicans will have to talk smartly about this issue. they have not had a lot of practice in the last several decades because they have the talking point of saying if they are in a tough race, and then state their opposition to row. now in a post roe world, they will have to look at where their states are going to do in their legislators, we're all the action will be, for money will flow. those will be very competitive and expensive, suddenly. republican senate candidates, especially, will have to be very smart about how they talk about it. the talking points from the nra c are not that. whether or not our candidates can stick to it, which they have not been able to do, is a different story, we will see. >> you raise the point that it just takes one state lawmaker to introduce some barr reaching antiabortion legislation to derail correctly talking points. david, they're crafting points of their own, they will go to the senate floor, they will try to quantify abortion rights -- they need 60 votes for, so why do it? is it a worthwhile thing to do before the midterms, but does it make the party look feckless? >> that is a great question, sam, because it goes to how do you contextualize the issue facing the country going into november. if you put this to the voter mindset, we know that turnout voters will turnout on this issue. if you are staunchly pro-choice are pro-life, this will be an issue upon in which you vote. if you are in that pro persuasion model, then the question is, what do the two parties do with the? i think that is what you saw the two parties wrestling with a little bit. you could say there is hypocrisy in the dog catching the car analogy that we have seen a lot. i do think if we look at the majority of persuasive voters going into this election, it is not as simple on the abortion life issue that a lot of people want to make it out to be. look, would i would suggest to my democratic friends is understand the approach that a lot of suburban voters are taking. they're probably large you would do, but it is not black and white for them. i would say to my republican friends, understand the same thing. it is not as simple as one life begins, just as it is not as simple as what is a fundamental choice when it comes to health care for a woman. i think this is a difficult issue. why would say is this, if you approach it in the lens of church versus state, i think democrats have an upper hand here because most of the republican position is informed by fate. but the constitution prescribe something very differently. i think that is the way democrats might want to approach this, as they approach persuadable voters, not just the turnout voters going into november. >> it is an interesting point. kevin, i will pick it up here because you have how speaker pelosi saying that the end of roe will fuel democratic turnout in november. take a listen to what she says. >> sometimes, it really takes something as appalling and such an assault on privacy and precedent on the constitution of personal liberty, the rights of women and families really that brings peoples focus into what's your vote means in the election, and how it affects the courts, and how it affects you. >> i think she has a point, i'm not totally convinced, but i think it is undeniable that republicans would rather this election be fought on the terms that were up until this week, inflation, the state of the economy, what is happening overseas, the withdrawal from of against in -- this one, it seems, democrats feel a lot marketable waging, you hear that? >> i think they think it's a great issue for them. if they want to run on abortion, they largely did not have a lot of good numbers in a lot of other issues set, inflation, immigration, unit. i think they will. they will raise a ton of money off of it. they will talk about it, but we saw instantly that they want to other issues when this ruling leak. they started linking it to the end of interest to a marriage, trying to do all sorts of scary tactics on all sorts of things, which is probably legally dubious, at best. republicans have all the issues in their favor right now. if they don't accuracy, if they don't say stupid things about abortion, about women's rights, and they talk calmly and compassionately and factually, i don't think this will change much. i think the base is likely to cancel each other out. they will both be motivated to go on this. there are other cultural issues at play, free speech, among them. our voters are very motivated. >> i want to pick up on the don't act crazy bit. it is hard to miss this week's unflattering headlines about republican congressman, madison cawthorn. why do you think republicans are turning against him? do you think they are turning against him now, actually? kevin, that is for you. >> many already have. most of the leadership is done with this guy. there is not much they can do, honestly. there are 90 guys in both parties, and there is not much you can honestly do other than condemn and discern yourself from them. until he's b in at the polls, they have to live with him. >> that is true. kevin sheridan and former congressman david jolly, thank you both for joining us, really appreciate it. providing abortion access to parts of the country could get harder, the dangers, we will speak with one doctor from texas. plus, the u.s. is reportedly providing intelligence to ukraine to help them fight back against the russians. is there a costly giving way military intelligence? tonight, do not miss the inspiring american, the 2022 inspiration list, it is at 9 pm eastern and 10 pm eastern on msnbc. eastern on eastern on msnb c. with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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what would it mean to perform abortions in the pre row world? >> it was very limiting choices for women. in 1972, i was an intern at a university hospital here in san antonio. the staff was mostly from the northeast and believed in abortion rights for women. we performed them in san antonio, pre roe, if a woman was deemed suicidal by the psychiatry department. which is ridiculous and itself, and awful in itself. otherwise, women had to travel out of state. the only women who could afford to do that, of course, were women of means. most of the patients in texas had very -- unfortunately during that time, i saw three deaths a 16 year old girls. unnecessarily dying because of back alley abortions. i am afraid that we are headed back there. >> that is pretty dark. let me just switch to modern-day, because last year you wrote about providing an abortion that broke the -- law recently passed texas law. let me ask you, straight-up, why did you take that risk? wet has the response been from the state? >> well, you know, i did that abortion primarily because that patient of mine needed that care. roe provided her that ability. i also did it, obviously, too test the law and, unfortunately, that -- relief in texas. >> my follow-up question to this is, the impact of the texas law could be penalizing abortion providers, it might just simply discouraging women from actually seeking out abortions, which is what's, frankly, the antiabortion advocates want. i guess the question is, do you believe less women are now coming out for abortions? obviously in texas, but will they come -- are they less likely to see abortion? but also, have you turned away people because you're afraid or concerned about providing abortions under the new law and texas? >> well, we have turned away hundreds of patients because they don't meet [inaudible] the criteria of spca. now the copy bill in oklahoma has caused us too cancel appointments -- hundreds of appointments the minute the governor signed that law. >> okay. doctor, thank you very much. we appreciate you sharing your memories of a pre roe era and talking about what is currently happening in your state. thank you. coming up next, after another solid jobs report. steps biden administration is taking to combat record inflation. at the top of the hour, a post row world could be right around the corner. i will speak with a former clerk for justice ruth bader ginsburg about what that world could look like. later, rudy giuliani has time to make appearances on the fox network, no time for the january six commission. why that panel could get another contempt charge ready for him. him. him. wow, first time? 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(announcer) enough with the calorie counting, carb cutting, diet fatigue, and stress. just taking one golo release capsule with three balanced meals a day has been clinically proven to repair metabolism, optimize insulin levels, and balance the hormones that make weight loss easy. release works with your body, not against it, so you can put dieting behind you and go live your life. head to golo.com now to join the over 2 million people who have found the right way to lose weight turning to the economy. and get healthier with golo. the u.s. saw another strong -- more than 400,000 jobs added last month. but, still dealing with a nationwide worker shortage and wages are not keeping up with rising inflation. msnbc's, kyrsten walker, has more. >> with growing dissatisfaction over his handling of the economy, president biden in battleground ohio is touting today's jobs report. >> we have now created a total of 8.3 million jobs in my first 15 months in office. >> with 428,000 jobs added to the u.s. economy and april, the country has gained back 95% of the jobs lost early in the pandemic. creating opportunities for people like new graduate, jordan waited, who just started the communications role with an arts nonprofit. >> they gave me an opportunity to really use my hobbies and interests as more money -- different title, different organizational structure. >> but the country is also facing dire economic headwinds. while paychecks are up five and a half percent, prices are soaring even higher, with inflation at a 40 year record. home prices have spiked 20%. gas prices are back near record highs. the dow is down 9% this year, putting a dent in peoples and retirement funds. republicans today blasting the biden's policies. sky right -- there is a record number of job openings, there are currently two jobs available for every person unemployed. among the reasons people aren't retiring early due to the pandemic, others are holding out for higher pay. businesses like person landscaping in portland, oregon say they had to increase salaries and even turned down new customers. >> it has been hard to find employees, because it's a much more challenging environment to find employees. we get competition from places we once didn't. that is nbc's kristen welker reporting, a new hour of american voices begins right now. begins right now. hello everyone, i am sam stein, in for alicia menendez. this hour, where do we go if the high court overturns roe. there are more protests expected at the supreme court. and just moments, we will hear from the notorious clerk to the notorious are b g. why are they largely staying silent on the topic of roe? also tonight, what is next for ukraine would days to go until russia's military holiday? what might putin have up his sleeve? and rudy is a no-show. he made a last-minute decision to refuse the january six committee to come testify, will he be held in contempt? let's begin this hour with the future of reproductive freedom