Thats a different question. First of all, theres the judges ruling which is like a ruling like the federal judge in texas rules that the Democratic Party is illegal. Of course, it will go up to the Fifth Circuit and then up to the Supreme Court and it will be overturned. I dont think this ruling makes a lot of legal sense because this federal agency doesnt have the ability to do it during a pandemic. I think at this point is Biden Administration may say enough, this is so unpopular. You know, this is not a question whether i will wear a mask on a plane, i am. I will when im getting on a plane. I will when everybody is congregated around. I will when people are coughing. I think at this point, again, last week talking about the tall wall of immunity we have built up, the two vaccines, i think at this point it should be up to i have two kids in my family. They will be Wearing Masks on planes just out of an abundance of caution. Yeah, and you still have that personal choice. It is a federal judge in florida who took up a case of one group in idaho, actually, and two plaintiffs basically saying we will apply it to the whole country. We will not even open this up to hear arguments but the cdc overstepped its bounds. You can debate whether the florida judge should have made that decision, whether she has the jurisdiction to do that. But what has happened is immediately the airlines all revoked their mask mandates. In fact, pilots announced them on planes, take them off right now. Airlines have been calling for this for a long time. Yeah. The extended mask mandate was only going to be in effect for 10 more days anyway, may 3rd. It may have been revoked anyway. To your point maybe the Biden Administration will look back and say we could have gotten ahead of it, we could have been the ones to say, it is time to take off the mask. By the way, the New York City Subway system because the local has a rule they can have their mask mandate. It is you have to people. You have to feel like, jonathan, one of the first mistakes the Biden Administration made last year when he was over 50 and was having his Mission Accomplished moment before delta hit, so theyre moving with an abundance of caution. I think thats the conservative with a small c, i think thats the conservative thing to do. Actually, now at the same time a federal judge has made this decision, they have to decide whether they want to appeal it or not. If they appeal it, they are probably going to go win because i think the 11th circuit or the Supreme Court will say, yes, this is within this federal agencys jurisdiction. But, again, politically i just dont know if they want to do it. What do you know . Yes, certainly you are right. Last july when the president Sunday The Nation was declaring its under from the virus and then delta emerged a few weeks later, that has shaped everything since. We heard jen psaki saying the Department Of Justice would look into the potential of a lawsuit but theyve made no attempt to do so. The clock is ticking. It was going to run out in ten days anyway. They know it is unpopular. There are some democrats around the white house that would wish they got ahead of this saying, hey, we are dropping the masks, there could have been a celebratory moment. But this is a juncture where the covid cases are starting to rise again, it is not nowhere near what we saw with delta or omicron, we want to make it clear, but it is rising. They might wish it to be in place a few more weeks but they may just let it go. It is crazy how ideologically crazy how people are chained to their positions. I get hammered for a year and a half, youre wearing a mask, you get the vaccine. It is called vaccine. Now people on the far left on my twitter feed going, what has happened to, where do you go . Science. It is just crazy how a pandemic has somehow been politicized from the very beginning. Yeah. Youre sympathetic, im sympathetic, we all are, to people who have concern and they can still wear a mask. Yeah, they should not be. Theyre going to keep wearing their mask, and thats all right. The question is should society been mandated for wearing them. Nobody knows what somebody else is going through. Exactly. Nobody knows what underlying symptoms somebody else has. Nobody knows if theyre a diabetic. Be kind. Exactly. And if you think we are having a debate, you ought to be watching what is happening in shanghai, china, right now where the entire city has been in lockdown for now approaching months, and for the first time in china you are starting to see real unrest develop, joe. Yeah, you know, admiral, im so glad you brought that up. We were going to get to that. You know, i grew up can you guys follow me here . No. I grew up and it seemed pretty obvious the difference between western democracies and totalitarian systems. If it wasnt obvious enough in that split between east and west berlin, north and south korea, it became evident after the soviet union collapsed. So im having to read these articles over the past three or four years, the end of western democracies, totalitarianism, authoritarianism is the new future of governance. This is what we heard about communism. Communism never works. Totalitarian so lets talk about lets talk about china, and you have a totalitarian system. Look how brittle china looks. Lets talk about putin. An autocrat. How brittle does his country look . I am still reading these stories, even postukraine about the collapse of the west, western democracy. Do you know, my Fifth Grade Teacher told me that the United States was going the way of the roman empire . How long can people get this wrong. Freedom works. Autocracy fails full stop. Yeah, ill give you two additional points to make. One is human nature. You know, at the end of the day people abhor a boss. People want voice. Thats what you are seeing in those brittle, cracking sounds coming out of some of these authoritarians. Secondly, joe, the throw of history, the long throw of history is on democracy. Go back 100 years ago, there were maybe 15 democracies in the world. Today, you know, you score it in different ways. We are probably pushing somewhere like 100. It is on the move. So both history and human nature, those are powerful forces. And you get a sense, willie, like were arguing over masks and we have a country like ukraine that has bigger things to worry about and showing us like what freedom is really worth. Certain puts in Perspective Fighting For Freedom when we have people in our country saying my freedom is yelling at the host of olive garden for making me wear a mask, punching, assaulting people for wearing a mask. And on planes. I think the Flight Attendants will be relieved about this because. It is terrible what the Flight Attendants have had to deal with. Lets get to the latest in ukraine where Officials Say russia has launched its offensive in the donbas region. The Ukrainian Military says the offensive began when Russian Forces tried to break through the front line from kharkiv in the north to donetsk in the south. Some military officials, both in ukraine and in the west, say the ground is still be set. A Ukrainian Military official tells the New York Times that the Offensive Will, quote, activate in the coming days, end quote. Last week the u. S. Said russia wasnt ready to launch the new offensive because of ongoing logistical problems. Here is what the pentagon is saying now. These appear to be chronic difficulties that the Russian Military has had in terms of logistic sustainment, operational maneuver, integration of air to ground, all problems that they still suffer from. So it remains to be seen whether they have, quote, fixed these problems and are ready to execute in a more efficient way in the donbas. Our assessment is they are still struggling with a lot of these problems. Also, our assessment is that part of the reason that were talking about shaping operations in the donbas is because the russians are trying to learn from their mistakes. So in the last few days we have seen them move in, as i said, command and control enablers, aviation support, largely helicopters, moving in Artillery Units ahead of what would be massive ground movements by troops or large ground movements by troops. It appears as if theyre trying to learn from the mistakes, but, again, it remains to be seen whether they actually fixed their problems. In a video discussing the new Russian Offensive, Volodymyr Zelenskyy said, quote, we will defend ourselves, we will not giveaway anything. Admiral, nobody doubts this after what weve seen. It is the front news in the newspaper that the offensive has begun. A big aid announced last week by President Biden but still president zelenskyy says it is not enough. Those 40 rounds of artillery is not enough, it will last about a week, we need more, we need more. What do you expect to see as russia in from the east. Lets do it on both sides. On the russian side of this we will see combined arms operations, which means simply putting together all of those pieces that Admiral Kirby just talked about, integrating them. Thats hard. Thats hard for u. S. Militaries to do and weve got a lot of experience doing this in iraq and afghanistan. Doing that kind of big theaterwide operation is very hard. Number two, logistics. We talk about it endlessly, but professionals are focused on logistics. The amateurs are worried about the strategy. Logistics either strategy for lunch. So the idea that russia is going to simply immediately solve these kind of deeprooted problems. Third and finally, you cant surge leadership on to a battlefield, and thats what weve seen again and again is a lack of direct leadership. On the russian side of this, yeah, we will see a lot of piece parts moving on the battlefield. Dont look for a sweeping cohesiveness on the battlefield. On the ukrainian side, look for resistance. Theyre here to say. Lets close on a snapshot of mariupol, a doomed city, but where you see defenders like at the alamo standing and delivering for their country. Magnify that through the ukrainian forces. That steel factory we are looking at right now, it is their alamo. It is their alamo and we have to honor it. Admiral, we have heard for a while that the Battle In The Donbas will look different from what weve seen in the war. A lot has been urban warfare, guerilla fighting. This will be a set piece combat. Explain what it means. Will this be tanks lined up . What sort of numbers are we talking about, what sort of artillery will be used . Think about the revenge of geography. In other words you can change a lot of things on the battlefield, you cant chapg the terrain. Thus, as you point out, jonathan, out of the cities, on to the plains of ukraine. It is a vast think kansas. As a result of that, that armor can move, both the tanks, the armored personnel carriers. Yes, what the russians envision is a sweeping set piece kind of battle like we havent seen since the second world war. We will see, a, if they can deliver that. B, ukrainians have plenty of fire power that we have given them to put a real sense of defense in front of the russians. So it is going to be quite striking to watch. And before the show we were talking about my brother ian, who spent time in ukraine helping establish Defense Policy back in like the early 90s,. Yeah. But he also did some army experience. Again, the difference between these two militaries, ukraine versus russia, logistics. Theyre completely disorganized in russia in way thats surprising people. Did you ever, admiral, when you were serving, did you ever sense did you get any behind of this among your russian counterparts, that they lets just face it. Theyre like a mess. Aa at best. Well, put it this way. Theyre the second best army in ukraine right now. You know, theyre bad. They may be bigger, but yeah, during about ten years ago when i was Supreme Allied Commander of nato i spent a fair amount of time with my counterpart and he would talk to me endlessly how the russians were going to professionalize, get out of the conscript business, they were going to improve their logistic goes, they were going to improve their technology. We watched that and saw some of that happening, but let me tell you, joe, until the bullets fly you dont know what kind of military you actually have. Interesting. By the way, president xi, as he looks at the world. Right. He has to be asking him of of himself, i wonder if what my generals are telling me is as accurate as what putin told him. New photos appear to show russias top warship before it sank in the black sea. A twitter account posted photos claiming to show the moskva after it caught fire. Naval experts say they believe the ship is the moskva but admit they cant be certain. The pentagon has said the photos cannot be verified. Ukraine says it hit the ship with missiles, but russia claims the ship caught fire when ammunition on board exploded. By the way, both bad. Meanwhile, families of the russian sailors who were aboard that ship are searching for answers. Theyre disputing claims by Russias Defense Ministry that the entire group, about 500 sailors, was evacuated last week before it sank to the bottom of the black sea. The Washington Post reporting social media groups, uniting mothers of russian soldiers deployed in ukraine, are filling up with photos and pleas from parents looking for their missing sons. And here it goes. And here it goes. And here it goes, just like afghanistan. One russian mother told the guardian the Defense Ministry called her yesterday and confirmed her sons death. She told the paper, quote, he was only 19, he was a conscript. They didnt tell me anything else. I am sure he isnt the only one who died. The Defense Ministry released video that it claims showed the sailors of the moskva in crimea after the ship sank, but only about 100 crew members are in the video, which is far fewer, like 400 fewer than the estimated crew. And on top of that, another significant loss for russias navy, russian state media confirmed yesterday the death of a navy captain. He was injured late last month when a Ukrainian Missile hit his ship in a port in southEastern Ukraine. Ukrainian forces sank one landing ship and damaged two others in that attack. Admiral, back to the moskva, first of all the significance strategically and symbolically losing that shop and on The Other Side russia white washing what happened, not telling the mothers of some of these soldiers their sons died or may have died. Obviously a humiliation the way theyre handling it back home and obviously some people turning on putin. Yes, lets start with the ship first. It is named for moscow, the capital. This would be like our George Washington sinking. Think about a world in which your capital ship goes down. By the way, it is an extremely distinctive looking ship. I for one believe those are accurate photos were seeing. You can fake anything, lets stipulate that, but i dont think it is fake. Willie, when you couple it to the fact you come ashore, your ship has sunk and you hold effectively a youdidagoodjob parade for the crew and 400 are missing, thats not a good look. Yeah. When i put all of that together, i think this is a stunning blow to the russian navy. Secondly, it just has to make Vladimir Putins head explode on top of how badly his army is doing in the field heres the navy. Next thing, i dont know, russian airplanes are going to start falling out of the sky. You have 400 families and friends looking for someone. Yeah. You cant hide this. Whats causing the humiliation . We understand on the logistical side they just dont they just dont have the leadership. We understand on the battlefield they just dont have soldiers that are inspired to fight, but are we talking about when we are seeing just the collapse, not only on ground but also at sea, is that just Weapon Systems . Are we starting to see western Weapon Systems get the better of russian Weapon Systems, or does it just come down to the fierceness of the ukrainian fighters . It is all of the above, but in particular im going to point to the spirit of the ukrainians. It is really the Center Of Gravity in this fight. It was said that the Center Of Gravity is that about which all also revolves and it is Persohn Personifide by zelenskyy. We are putting the tools, and third and finally you cannot surge leadership. Sometimes when you start combat you have the wrong generals in command. You know, admirals love to criticize generals, but i will put it this way. Thinks about the United States at the start of world war ii. We didnt have the right generals, we didnt have the right admirals, we had to bring in a new team. I think putin looks at his bench and he doesnt have what he needs there. You said something key there. Russian soldiers are not inspired to fight. The will of the two armies is so different. So different. The ukrainians are defending not only their country but freedom and democracy on display for the world. Some of the conscripts we just talked about, the 19 year old, they have to be asking themselves, why am i here . Why am i being ordered to butcher people in bucha, why am i bombing military hospitals. A lot are not buying the argument back home that ukraine is the aggressor, thats where the order has come. And theyre ordered to butcher civilians. Intercepted Radio Messages show that the orders are coming from above. And by the way Vladimir Putin just held an Awards Ceremony and handed out medals to the unit in bucha. Think about that for a minute. Oh. It is unbelievable. Lets talk about Vladimir Putin and the end game. We have seen how this war has unfolded. It goes from phase to phase to phase. This new phase is where we move past just giving them old soviet weapons, old russian weapons and we start using western weapons, we start moving western weapons, american Weapon Systems into the hands of the ukraine. We know for Vladimir Putin that things go from bad to worst. Lets just talk about where does this end. If you are sitting there talking to the president and you are saying, mr. President , yes, were going to start rolling them up on the battlefield. The ukrainians are going to start rolling them up on the battlefield. May even push putin back into russia, but then what . He has to respond. Does he respond with nuclear . Does he respond with Chemical Weapons . There doesnt seem to be a good end game regardless, does it . Yeah, i will give you three words. No good options. This one doesnt have a nice, neat bow we are going to tie on it. I think at a minimum we are going to end up with a longer, bigger, kind of frozen conflict, as the saying goes, because the idea that were going to roll up the russians and push them back into ukraine, boy, thats a tall order. It is not impossible, but when you look at the realities on the battlefield, the mass, the scale of what russia has, it is simply unlikely that theyre going to flip a switch and asked, ah, this isnt worth it anymore, were going home. I dont see putin doing it. So, willie, mika, jonathan, joe, what i worry about is horizontal. I worry about whether putin will unleash a cyberattack, not just in ukraine but in the west. I worry about a Chemical Weapon. I think it is more likely than a nuclear weapon. I worry about him continuing to pound at these cities, war crimes to the max. I think buckle up, we are in for a longer i know we have to go, but what do you say to people watching, and they watch news five, six, seven hours a day. They see putin indiscriminately killing civilians and they say, enough is enough, we have to go in . I ask you that question, i personally have been warning here. Were asked this a lot. And we always say, cant do it. We just cant do it. Im still at the cant do it because putin has 6,000 Nuclear Weapons. We have to hold that in the back of our mind. On the other hand, we all ought to be putting on our ukrainian colors. We ought to be supporting, giving the tools to zelenskyy. People talk about a nato nofly zone. How about a ukrainian nofly zone using jets that we give them. Right. We are moving in the right direction here. I think we just have to dial it up. Right. Again, bearing in mind the consequences of a wider conflict. And i know you dont like to be attached to generals, but General Mccaffrey yesterday said weve been you said, we need more, we need more, we need more, but then thats what we americans say. I said, okay, we need more. How have we been doing so far . He says, pretty remarkable. Would you agree with that assessment, for people that may be angry because were not going into ukraine right now, how would you grade nato . How would you grade the United States is providing weapons . I think were doing an exceptional job. Particularly in the start of the conversation, it is a foot race. To put the tools in the hands of the ukrainians, we will win that foot race. By the way, of all of the generals i know you can attach me to General Mccaffrey. Hes a lifetime mentor. Still ahead, we have more leading military voices with us as russia launches a new offensive in ukraine. Air force veterans Brigadier General Robert Spalding and general Lori Robinson both will be our guests. Plus, the kremlin appears to have suffered a major intelligence breach as ukraine leaks personal data for thousands of soldiers and spies. We will speak to the held of the cia about that. Also ahead, the ukraine, will it join the European Union . We have an update on the status. And Vladimir Putin claims sanctions against russia has failed, but new reporting says the impact on its economy is very real. You are watching morning joe. We will be right back. Before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable nights sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. Now, that dream. Is her reality. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for allday, allnight protection. 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We love stuff. And theres some really wegreat stuff out there. It. But i doubt that any of us will look back on our lives and think, i wish id bought an even thinner tv, found a lighter light beer, or had an even smarter smartphone. Do you think any of us will look back on our lives and regret the things we didnt buy . Or the places we didnt go . Id go the whole wide world id go the whole wide world lets do it. We already hit the bank, the museum, the jewelry store. Where to next . Next, we save hundreds with Xfinity Mobile. Huh . Mmm. You know, unlimited data. Oh. Nationwide 5g at no extra cost. [ chuckles ] thats a steal. Wait, wait, wait. Are we stealing the safe . Were saving so much, its like stealing. Well, youre the tech expert webs. Is it reliable . You tell me. Wah ping. Its reliable and fast. Wireless savings so good, even the bad guys love it. Switch to Xfinity Mobile today. And see dreamworks the bad guys. 6 30 in the morning. A beautiful, live picture of the white house. Ukraines Intelligence Service claims to have leaked the personal information of more than 2,000 russian soldiers and spies. The first list allegedly includes the names, birthdays, and Job Passport Numbers of agents from the fsb. The second list is said to include the information of 1,600 Russian Troops who were stationed in the ukrainian city of bucha where a mass murder of civilians is believe to have taken place. Nbc news has not yet verified the accuracy of all of that data. Mark polymeropoulos joins us, a 26year veteran of the cia, serving in iraq and afghanistan and one of the agencys most decorated field officers. Great to see you this morning. I want to ask you about what is happening in east ukraine, but what do you make of the report that ukraine leaked all of that information. What is the benefit of doing that . First, thanks for having me today. I have to say the Greek Diaspora is cheering. You know, the release of this information is pretty extraordinary. We talk about hybrid warfare and we kind of feared that the russians would do things like this. The ukrainians are doing it right back at them. It matters because, first of all, it gets into putins head. It certainly affects the morale of the units involved in the atrocities, and to the final point at some point there will be a reckoning in terms of war crimes. The ukrainians are messaging to the russians, we know who did this, we will hold you accountable. I think thats really important. You know, theres more to come. I think we are going to see Messaging Campaigns from the ukrainians, perhaps in conjunction with the allies. You know, two Russian Military units stationed inside ukraine, you know, warning them about certain things such as war crimes. Theyre on the offense. This is a good thing. We are finally really playing in the russias old sphere of hybrid warfare and were winning. So at an event in georgia last week cia director William Burns gave this answer when asked about the threat of Russia Using Nuclear Weapons in ukraine. Given the potential desperation of President Putin and the russian leadership, given the setbacks that theyve faced so far militarily, none of us can take lightly the threat posed by a potential resort to a tactical Nuclear Weapons or lowyield Nuclear Weapons. Of course, thats what i was talking to Admiral Stavridis about before, the possibility of losing even after the ukrainians win. Talk about that part of burns speech and the importance of it. Yes, last week burns made his public speech, and he gave a warning about the potential use of tactical Nuclear Weapons. When bill burns talks we have to listen. He went on to say we havent seen signs of any movement, so i think the u. S. Intelligence community will be laser focused on taking a look at the russian capabilities, land, sea and air, how they would employ these tactical Nuclear Weapons. We havent Seen Movement yet and it is a good thing. If we do, i would expect to see more authorized disclosures which has been effective in the past. It is like operationalizing intelligence but it would be a message to the world putin is going down the path. It will be a warning to putin. Theres another sign of this, too. I think it will be a message to china because president xi and china dont want to see this conflict go nuclear. Programs it will be reaching out to china and saying, you know, put some pressure on your client state. I expect these authorized disclosures if we see this kind of movement. But, look, burns makes this warning and it is one of the most respected figures in the National Security establishment. We should really listen to him. In terms of the speech itself, it was remarkable. He laid out the kind of shortterm challenge of russia. He talked about putin. He said he is an apostle of pay back. What a line. He talked about the longterm challenge of china. Theres two other key points. He talked about the u. S. Operational capabilities, human intelligence, what i used to do, we are faced with what is called a ubiquitous technical surveillance environment, which means it is harder to run Intelligence Operations and the cia has to adapt. The last part of the speech that was profound is he talked about when he was a young diplomat he was killed in pan am 103, thats a cia officer whose name is on the wall at langley, a profound moment. I think burns laid out a positive speech for the future of the Intelligence Community. Again, when he speaks People Better listen. Yeah. Uhhuh. It really is something, what the white house has been doing from the beginning, talking about using intel against putin, saying he is going to invade when all of our allies, zelenskyy was saying, no, hes not, stop panicking. I cant imagine anything talk about psyops, i cant imagine anything driving putin crazier when you have a pentagon spokesperson going behind the podium, with the pentagon sign behind him, saying, this is what is happening to the Russian Military now, these are the problems theyre having, this is why their operation in the donbas is going to be slow for a while. They may i mean they have been theyve obviously been beating russia at their game, and it is not even close. I mean this is like, you know, would be like when the red sox play tampa, when we play the blue jays. It is going to be ugly. No, youre right. That would drive any leader crazy, particularly one like putin who is a former Intelligence Officer himself. Right. And burns was the Driving Force behind this strategy at the white house. By the way, burns has spent time with putin obviously. Former ambassador to russia, knows putin well, speaks russian. He among anyone on bidens staff knows putin the best and he was the Driving Force to the craft, the strategy prior to the war to put out intelligence in public and to keep doing so even as the conflict has begun. Mark, one thing they warkd about warned about was the idea russia would engage in cyberattacks. It has been surprising it hasnt happened yet. We got a fresh round with putin seemingly focused on the donbas this might be the moment they unleash the cyberattacks. How would we prepare for that. In i think we have. It is curious to those of us outside of government why hasnt occurred, but i guess a sense that we did put our defenses up. I wouldnt be surprised in the weeks and months to come to understand that or to learn that the u. S. Has actually been pretty good in thwarting russian cyber. One of the things that the russians were very effective at over the years is using offensive Cyber Operations when our guard was down. You know, this happened certainly in europe, in ukraine when they took down kind of the Power Infrastructure and, of course, in the United States in the past. So i think we have all collectively gotten better, but i get a sense we have done a lot of things behind the scenes we dont know about. We will find out down the line, but kudos to Cyber Command and those who have really kind of taken this as their mantra. Mark, thanks for being here. Thank you. You were talking about three greeks, we have three red sox fans, we really dont want to talk about it. Yesterday i was declaring it the greatest red sox team of all time because we were 5 and 4 and in second place. I think we are 5 and 5 now, were. 500. Obviously we are on our way to having the worst red sox record since 1965. Yeah. 65 sox, lose 100 games. All of the good will built from The Impossible Dream built wasted in a morning. Yesterday, done. Tough loss. Mark, Guy With A Long Last Greek name, cia legend, thank you for being with us. Thank you for being here. Admiral stavridis, with all of the talk of logistics and the morale and the shared passions that the Ukrainian Military has and the impressive feats, mariupol, many say, will fall in a matter of days even. Yes. And that mlb a gut punch on many levels, but what will that offer the russians in terms of access to the area, maybe even a whole kind of swath of the eastern side to claim . Yeah. This gets into what is Vladimir Putins minimum, and i think his end game, if you look at that map, is control over a strip, a land bridge it is sometimes called that runs from russian down to crimea. Lets park dead center the city of mariupol. So, unfortunately, what you are going to see is putin just pound away. Again, the images of the alamo i think are germane here. He will turn around to the russian people and say, look what i have done, i have consolidated complete control over this vital piece of sea coast. This is where all of the russian speakers live. I think thats the end game narrative he is building. It involves mariupol. Can we talk really quickly just about something that mark brought up . Weve got burns. Yeah. Positioned perfectly for this. He speaks russian. Oh, yeah. He knows putin. Couldnt be any better. I dont mean to make this personal, but in poland youve got a brzezinski, somebody who not only is fluent in polish but also has lived there, his father obviously an icon from there. You look at how biden set in those two key critical countries, i mean whether it is brilliance or luck it is still pretty good, especially looking at burns and russia. Oh, this is a superb team. I will throw in another one, a woman who is the ambassador to nato, julie smith, who is really quite, quite good and has been a nato hand forever. Shes in the right position to drive Something Big thats coming, and in my opinion that is finland and sweden joining nato. How incredible is that . It is incredible. Of course, mark brzezinski, our current ambassador, is a former ambassador to sweden. So you see how these pieces start to fit together. Boy, you want to talk about making Vladimir Putins head explore, bring the fins and the swedes in. They are fighters. Unbelievable. When i was nato commander, occasionally my Security Detail would be provided by the swedes. Because im 55, they would send this 64 vikings to protect me. This are war fighters to the extreme. Oh. Coming up, china continues to back russia despite worldwide condemnation for the war in ukraine. We will look at the actions the Biden Administration could take against beijing for supporting putin. Well also talk to a member of the White House Security council ahead of President Bidens call with Western Allies today. And more on the judges decision to lift the federal mask mandate on most Public Transportation. Morning joe is coming right back. Youre pretty particular about keeping a healthy body. What goes on it. Usually. In it. Mostly. Even what gets near your body. Please please please take that outside. Here to meet those high standards is the Walgreens Health and wellness brand. Over 2000 products. Rigorously tested. Walgreens pharmacist recommended. And particularly kind to your wallet. Bipolar depression. It made me feel trapped in a fog. This is art inspired by real stories of Bipolar Depression. I just couldnt find my way out of it. The lows of Bipolar Depression can take you to a dark place. Latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. Latuda was proven to significantly reduce Bipolar Depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. This is where i want to be. Call your doctor about sudden Behavior Changes or suicidal thoughts. 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Jeffrey sachs. Great to have you back on the show with us this morning, both of you. General, thanks so much for being with us. It seems that xi just hasnt been able to get out of his way over the past year. You can look at the Zero Covid Strategy wrecking his economy right now, the missteps in hong kong, you know, embracing Vladimir Putin before he goes on a disastrous military campaign. Obviously they want to be part of a system, they want to dominate a system that putin wants to disrupt. Why do they continue to embrace him . Well, i mean one of the problems that you have to deal with, both with putin and with xi, is the fact that they are leaders of totalitarian regimes. A lot of times they dont get any feedback thats really positive. But, of course, with xi theres something even more i think sinister behind it, and that is he wanted to see how the west would react to putin with his invasion of ukraine because he plans a similar invasion of taiwan eventually. So understanding the economic, the financial and the political ramifications of that invasion actually helps him understand how he can deal with the west when he does something similar to taiwan. General, let me ask you if you agree with Admiral Stavridis that the last six weeks certainly have had to raise questions in his held about, well, maybe taiwan is not worth it. Russia was supposed to roll in to kyiv in two or three days and it hasnt turned out that way. Do you think do you think we are oversimplifying our read of xi in thinking that he may be going through that and drawing those conclusions . No, xis basically said that he is not going to leave taiwan to the next generation. The chinese dont get deterred by actions of the west. What they seek to understand and accomplish is how do they take advantage of the situation. And with russias invasion of ukraine, it is really about learning the lessons, and then theyre going to turn around and use those lessons on things like the belts and Road Initiative. Theyre going to strengthen Energy Cooperation with russia. Theyre going to use their satellites to really isolate and secure their economy from any, you know, sanctions that may be coming from the west. So, no, i dont think it is going to deter xi in any way. I think what it is going to do is allow him to take measures internally to china and in conjunction with other countries through the belts and Road Initiative to ensure that the west doesnt have the same levers that they had with regard to putin. Doctor, when you look at the economic decision of china to side with russia, what is the calculation of further isolating itself when theyre saying, we sided with a country that is murdering civilians by Tens Of Thousands and is looking to annex some of the territory from ukraine, does xi care about the isolation it brings with it . What is his Economic Strategy here . I think you have to count the votes. It is a little bit different from what we think. There are 30 countries that have put on sanctions, but they represent just 15 of the world population. There were 94 countries that voted to suspend russia from the Human Rights Council but they account for only 94 of the worlds population. Basically we have the u. S. And europe in a particular posture. It is not just china, it is almost all of the developing world is saying, this isnt our battle, these sanctions are hurting us, theyre hurting the world economy. So the idea, i just want to be clear, whatever right or wrong, the idea that these sanctions are going to do the job or that they will deter china, because as we just herald they will not, but it is not china being isolated. We are talking a lot to ourselves actually. I have been traveling all over the world as usual, and the view is very, very different outside of the u. S. And europe. This is just important for us to understand. Yeah. So, jeffrey, you talk about the population. I have heard about the percentage of the population that actually is not condemning russia. Lets talk about the economics of it though. Yes, it is a smaller percentage of the world population, but certainly theres an outsized economic impact. Weve heard officials connected with china saying that theyre obviously more interwoven economically with the west than they are with russia. Is that a concern for china as they move forward . It is a concern, of course, and you are right that the share of the world economy, depending on how you count it, is maybe 40 or 50 that are imposing sanctions right now. It is not predominant, it is not decisive. Sanctions are not ever been decisive even when theyve been imposed in very harsh ways against very nasty regimes. They dont change the political calculus very much actually. So, yes, they will be cautious. They will be prudent, but it is not really going to change the course either of the war or geopolitics. I think it is important in the sub text of all of the military news that you were discussing in the last minutes, no good options, expanding horizontal conflict, longer battle, land bridge to crimea, no Deterrent Effect of the sanctions. We should really take a more sober view it seems to me. We should understand that military things mean one thing, but getting political outcomes is quite a different things. Were 19 years after, quote, Mission Accomplished was declared and we know that that was because of a Military Enthusiasm but it didnt turn to the political outcomes. We should be thinking about politics more than we are, and were not really thinking about end games because, as we heard, the current approach has no end game, no good end game. So were not thinking about end games. I would prefer that we also think about end games that are realistic, achievable and actually would save ukraine. Well, im not exactly sure i dont see people jumping up and down talking about how this is a cake walk and certainly not seeing celebrations in the street. This is a very grim situation. Vladimir putin is not only committing war crimes, his soldiers are committing war crimes, and then he is giving them awards for committing war crimes. He is elevating generals who committed unspeakable horrors in aleppo. He, of course, is connected with chechnya. So i want to ask you what you think we should do moving forward, and i want to note to our viewers, who may not remember this im sure they dont, but i remember at 2014 you were one of the few people that came on the set and chided the obama administration, said we have a treaty with ukraine, we guaranteed the sovereigty of their borders. If we dont do anything about it, it will just invite future aggression. I remember you saying that in 2014. Here we are, of course, eight years later. So what do we do . I think we need a diplomatic track. While that sounds weird, it is actually quite important. We dont have a diplomatic track right now. We have two tracks. One is added military, which is going to get ukraine pulverized. The other track is sanctions, which will not work in the way that they think theyre going to work. We dont have a diplomatic track. We dont have an end game approach based on the u. N. Security council, diplomacy and so forth. I do think that there is such a track possible. I personally have long viewed it as prudent, whether desirable or not, but the way to save ukraine i thought was actually a neutral ukraine, stabilized with the understanding we wont have a conflict in ukraine. I dont Stand Up And Cheer when i hear finland and sweden are about to join nato. I think it deepens what could turn into a world war iii. I would rather add a diplomatic track and hear from our diplomats, not just how were going to put pressure on but what kind of end game we could actually reach with russia, which has a major patron, as you have been saying, china, but has much of the world actually saying, we need peace because this is going to destroy perhaps our world but also our global economy. General spalding, how though do you conduct diplomacy with a country in russia and a leader in Vladimir Putin who has ignored it completely, who has ignored sanctions, who has ignored outreach from the United States and the ukraine as well, entertaining a meeting with putin and zelenskyy at one point, and continuing to kill civilians and repositioning his troops for a larger offensive thats underway now according to president zelenskyy . How do you sit down across the table from a country like that and have a goodfaith conversation about how to end this . I dont think you do that today. I think we have entered the first phase of a very long conflict with china, russia and other authoritarian regimes. I think what the rest of the world responds to has always been americas prosperity, the idea of america. That is one of the things we lost after the end of the cold war. So we stopped investing in ourselves. We stopped investing in infrastructure. We stopped investing in our industrial base, our stem education, our science and technology. We were spending 2 of gdp on research and development during the cold war, and we spend less than. 7 today. We were spending moreover the last three years sending troops to afghanistan than actually sending students to universities. So it is really about investing in ourselves. As we invest in ourselves, the rest of the world will begin to look to the United States as a source of, you know, prosperity and a vision for the future. Right now theyre looking towards china because thats where the economy has been growing, but, unfortunately, what has happened is china has used the innovation, the technology, the talent, the capital of america to build up their economy in the eyes of the world. That was our fault and it is time to Start Building up our society and our economy, because as we do then we will be much better prepared to deal with the hearts and minds of those abroad than if we just focused on the ukraine war today. It is not going to be over just with this. It is going to extend. It is going to be longer. We have to think in terms of economics and politics and finance over the long term, and how do we know the value of freedom . What is the point of our society and how do we portray it to the rest of the world . It has really been through our citizens. All right. The new book is war without rules chinas playbook for global domination. Retired air force general Robert Spalding, thank you very much. Dr. Jeffrey sachs, thank you as well. Great to see you again. Still ahead, more Expert Military Analysis on russias new offensive in ukraine. Two retired u. S. Air force veterans, general Lori Robinson and officer sarah kreps joins us. Plus we will speak live with White House Security Council Advisor matt miller about what the Intelligence Community thinks about what Vladimir Putins next movements will be. We are back in one minute. These appear to be chronic difficulties that the Russian Military has had in terms of logistic, unit control, cohesion, operational maneuver, integration of air to ground, all problems they still suffer from. It remains to be seen whether they have, quote, fixed these problems and are now ready to execute in a more efficient way in the donbas. Our assessment is that they are still struggling with a lot of these problems. Also, our assessment is that part of the reason we are talking about shaping operations in the donbas is because the russians are trying to learn from their mistakes. So in the last few days we have seen them move in, as i said, command and control enablers, aviation support, largely helicopters, moving in Artillery Units ahead of what would be massive ground movements by troops or larger ground movements by troops. So it appears as if they are trying to learn from those mistakes but, again, it remains to be seen whether theyve actually fixed their problems. Pentagon Press Secretary Retired rear admiral job kirby with that assessment of the Russian Military. It is a good assessment. As Officials Say russias offensive in the Eastern Donbas region is underway. Yeah. The Ukraine National police force says five civilians have been killed so far in donetsk and a child is among the injured. Welcome back to morning joe. It is tuesday, april 19th. With us we have nbc contributor John Barnicle and also with us from the daily beast, david. David, how are you doing today . Doing okay. The red sox last last night, 5 and 5, worst season since 1965. There are 152 games left. Are there . . Yeah. 152 games of pain. It will be a very long season. Yeah, being handled by the orioles over the weekend. You know, it is so funny. We started 0 and 3 against the orioles. You should have heard everybody talking. It was a this is the end. Of course, we are crying when we beat the yankees, screaming, we are the champions, going all the way. And then we stopped hitting and it is back to where we were with 0 and 3. Our two. 500 clubs, one game out of first place. I think theres still some hope. There is that. We just had Jeffrey Sachs on. Jeffrey sachs, a good friend of ours from colombia. I will say in 2014 he was talking about how we just sort of breezed past the fact we had signed a treaty to get the nukes out of ukraine and we were going to protect the territorial integrity. We didnt do that. He said there would be consequences then, and he was right. He is talking about a diplomatic solution right now. What is a diplomatic solution, willie, who do we talk to . Look, the only person available to talk to about that is the tooth fairy because the reality is there is no diplomatic path if Vladimir Putin doesnt want to enter a diplomatic path. He started the war. He is expanding the war. He is doubling down. He is sending new reserves into Eastern Ukraine. He is being humiliated. Yeah, but, you know, ukraine to their credit has reached out, said, lets have talks, but the russians arent serious about talking. Theyre laying waste to cities. They are killing women and children. They are ignoring international law. You know, you cant sure, it would be nice to have a diplomatic solution but it is not an available option right now and it wont be until Vladimir Putin feels it is his only path. Thats why supporting ukraine and defeating russia on the battlefield is the path to a diplomatic solution. Following up on what jeffrey said, is there anybody, is there a third party putin would listen to . No. I mean he doesnt seem to listen to reason within his own councils power. This is on him. This is his initiative. I think the party that he listened to is the account from the battlefield. You know, if he loses, if he loses more troops, if he loses more tanks, if you loses in cities around ukraine, at some point or another he is going to have to say, theres no future in this for me. What about president xi, would you listen to president xi . I think he might listen to president xi, but so far theres no evidence that the chinese really want to put pressure on russia. And why is that . Things are going so badly for china and president xi right now, why arent they applying more pressure to russia . I think they see some advantage to the west being preoccupied in ukraine. I think they see some advantage to us expending a lot of money there and being distract it. If you recall before all of this started, the focus of the United States was on building up the quad, building up our asia security alliances, focusing our efforts to china. I think, by the way, thats continued under the Biden Administration. They have actually demonstrated that in Foreign Policy they can walk and chew gum at the same time and that they are dealing with these chinese issues, but the chinese have thrown their lot in with putin and they see him as a useful foil for the west as they deal with their own internal problems. Xi this year wants to deal with reestablishing his rule up and down through the chinese order as theyre going through some domestic issues, and i think he wants to focus domestically through the end of the year. Would you say that russias failures in ukraine could act as a deterrent to xi going into taiwan or not . Of course, on several levels. First of all, it is demonstrated a supposedly superior power going in and invading a country that wants no part of them doesnt work. We have seen it doesnt work in afghanistan. It doesnt work in iraq. It didnt work in vietnam. You know, theres a long history of that not working. It doesnt work. And for the russians im so struck. We always talk about russian history but what are the two most defining moments in russian history as far as wars go . The invasion in 41 of the germans and then napoleons invasion of russia. It defines them as a country, and here they find themselves on The Other Side of that equation. Theyre making the mistakes. Putin is napoleon. Putin is hitler going into stalingrad right now. He is the one fighting the resistance that looks more like the russian resistance has russia do. Officials in ukraine say russia has launched its anticipated offensive in the Eastern Donbas region. The Ukrainian Military says the new phase began when Russian Forces tried to break through its defenses along the entire front line from kharkiv in the north to donetsk in the south. Some military officials, both in ukraine and in the west, say the ground is still being set. Meanwhile, the fighting rages on in the southern port city of mariupol. An aide to the citys mayor said intense Street Fighting remains concentrated around a steel factory. He also said thousands of civilians are trapped at the plant along with ukrainian troops who are attempting to defend it. The aide denied a claim from the russian Defense Ministry that Russian Forces have completely surrounded the plant. Ukrainian forces refused moscows demand for surrender over the weekend. Meanwhile, u. S. Troops are expected to begin Training Ukrainians in the coming days on how to use those newly issued american weapons. One week after the white house announced a new 800 million Defense Package to ukraine, pentagon officials said training soon will get under way. Included in the package were helicopters, drones, howitzers, javelins and other defensive weapons. Speaking at the pentagon yesterday, secretary john kirby emphasized the training will not take place on ukrainian soil. That training will occur outside of ukraine. It will be more of a train the trainers kind of environment, so it will be a small number of ukrainians that will be trained on the howitzers and then they will be reintroduced back into their country to train their colleagues. Joining us, Retired Four Star General Lori Robinson. She retired in 2018 after 37 careers of Military Service when she was commander of the United States Northern Command and north American Aerospace defense command. General, so great to have you with us. Thank you for all of those years of service to the country. Im curious first for your broad assessment of where this war is now that were almost two months into it with the russian army failing in places it expected to win easily. Has not taken kyiv, obviously installed its government. But pulling back and moving the goalposts and saying this war is about capturing the east and bringing it back into the former soviet union. From your position is the United States giving enough defensive support . Is it giving enough offensive weapons . Where do we go from here. First of all, willie, i think all of the assessments that weve heard about them gathering in the east and bringing all of their fire power to the east is exactly correct. Admiral stavridis and your team has been absolutely accurate about that. Secondly, what i would say is i think theres been close coordination, not just with the United States but also all of the allies on what the president needs in ukraine for his capabilities. I think whats really important about this is we have given them more capability and more weapons that were training their trainers. The good news is theres been training happening before russia invaded and now training afterwards. I think to train the trainers allows capacity and capability for the ukraine soldiers and their entire force to continue to, you know, dig in and protect their democracy. General, from your experience, from what you have read, what you have seen and sort of what you have witnessed in the past and bringing it up to the present, do you think the ukrainians have the Missile Capacity right now to strike into russias Redeployment Areas if they show choose . Im not sure if been the total capacity, but i can tell you they have with wherewithal and we have seen that in the defense of kyiv. We have seen it in a couple of other places. And so the more they understand what russia is bringing from the east, the more that they can take their fire power and amass it and consolidate it and understand where the targets are and put the missiles where they need to, to defeat russia. So, general, im curious about the intricacies of a nofly zone, which is very controversial and most will say nato should not, you know, put a nofly zone in place because it then causes world war iii. But Admiral Stavridis earlier in our show talked about supporting ukraine so that ukraine could perhaps create their own nofly zone. Is the west, is nato, are supportive countries capable of making ukraine capable of having its own nofly zone . Would that work . So, mika, i think that is a great question that the admiral brought up. If we sit back and we think about what John Beechem Talks to us a lot, history, right . So we should go back and look at Operation Southern Watch. Operation southern watch was the nofly zone south of the 32nd Parallel in iraq from 1992 to 2003. It was in support of the united Security Council resolution 688. If you look at that, there was guidance given, but the first part ukraine needs to think about are the Rules Of Engagement. Obviously everybody has the inherent right to selfdefense, but in Operation Southern Watch at the 32nd Parallel, if an Iraqi Airplane came and crossed the 32nd Parallel we were able to engage that airplane. So the Rules Of Engagement, and we could help with all of that, what would be those Rules Of Engagement and what would the Ukrainian Air power go and engage on. The next part is, hey, how long is this going to be . Is it going to be a 24houraday operation as we did in Operation Southern Watch . The other part is resources, not just money but obviously fighters, tankers to refuel if we need to, if they have that, some level of command and control. Thats what we had in Operation Southern Watch. So these lessons that we have learned from a previous nofly zone and other prudent Military Planning would happen, would be able to be some things that could be discussed in setting up and orchestrating. Probably the other thing, and we heard Admiral Kirby talk about it on the russian side and weve heard Admiral Stavridis talk about it on the ukrainian side, is this coordination with the ground forces. If you have surfacetoair capability that you are flying over, then it is incredibly necessary to ensure you have proper coordination between the air and ground forces, and that could be a conversation that we could have. All right. Retired air force Four Star General Lori Robinson. Thank you so much. Thank you. As willie said, we are so thankful for your service to our country. Thank you. By the way, she brought Upjohn Meachem and history. I wish she hadnt. Yeah, i mean because he will talk about history. If we had him on here we would be talking about crimea in 2014, he would be talking about the crimean war of 1854 and piedmonts position as related to the ottoman empire. Meachem at lunch today will dine out on being referenced by an esteemed general. He will savor the second cigar more than usual. Ukraine is one step closer to becoming a member of the European Union. Less than two weeks after Volodymyr Zelenskyy was given an application, he returned it yesterday. The eu leaders said theyre willing to fast track ukraines request given the countrys circumstances. In a video posted to Social Media Last Night Zelenskyy thanked the eu for expediting the process and expressed optimism his country will soon be accepted. That is hopeful. That is very not the nato the nato aspirations are probably not going to happen. Well, i mean, you know, i think your father said years ago that that ukraine should be able to do whatever it wants to do, but that would be provocative. But the eu is this is what the battle has been about since the orange revolution, hasnt it, david . They want to move west. They want their economy connected to the west and not russia. How important is this . Well, as jon meacham would no doubt say, this goes back to catherine the great. Yes, and the rebellion. The rebellion always figures in this. The issue is where does europe start and russia begin, right. In this particular case ukraine has said, we want to be part of europe for a long time now and russia has hated that idea. They hate now i mean look at the Russian Troops coming in and stealing washing machines. Theyre seeing a lifestyle in ukraine that they dont have any access to. Thats right. Thats incredible. Isnt that amazing . I thought that was a relic of the soviet union. That was east berlin versus west berlin. How shocking that we hear about the oligarchs, we hear about the billions and billions of dollars, but you have russian soldiers crossing into ukraine, being shocked by what ukrainians have in their households. Theres a substantial portion of the russian population that doesnt have indoor plumbing right now. Theres enormous inequality there. But you know, this eu thing has other dimensions to it. Recently the eu has started to say that we will bear the price of rebuilding ukraine, and if ukraine is in the eu and the eu is in ukraine building it, thats very similar to a security guarantee, right . Because it is full of europeans thats true. It is full of european money. The likelihood that the russians are going to go after ukraine when it is part you know, this massive right. Rebuilding effort is being undergone is very low. So, you know, they may not be part of nato in fact, but they may be virtually part of nato. Yeah, a de facto member of nato. You know, we are going to go into break at some point, going to be showing a music video of ukrainians. Oh, my gosh. Singing really inspirational song. You look at them, they could be in los angeles, they could be in london. There is such a western flavor to their culture already, that theyre moving in that direction. I want to talk about finland. Jeffrey sachs may not think it is a positive thing, but finland and sweden becoming members of nato, it is, for those of us who believe nato is a defensive alliance, i think it is pretty remarkable. Well, you know, putin allegedly started this war to keep ukraine out of nato, to keep nato smaller. At the end of this nato is going to be bigger, and what is more, finland and sweden have significantly more capability than ukraine in a lot of important respects. Oh, my gosh. And they take care of the whole northern flank of nato in a big way. Look at that. Theyre surrounded. It is transformational. It is another reason it is a giant blunder by putin. In so many ways. Yeah, talk about that, jonathan, as far as nato expansion in the white house in view of finland and sweden coming in. Oh, certainly in favor of it. I think that is the irony here as we have been discussing since the first moments of the invasion, that putin has driven both ukraine and other border, former satellites into the arms of the west, into the eu, into nato. Certainly there is, of course, always concern about ukraines nato eligibility. I think it has been put to the side. Zelenskyy himself said it is not something theyre actively pursuing. If it grows elsewhere in europe and it is a more united west in europe, the white house supports that. They feel like it would be a bulwark for russian aggression down the road. A certain former president has been saying how brilliant putin is, been saying it for years, been saying what a strong leader he is. In my adult life i cant think of a leader who has made a more catastrophic blunder for his country geopolitically than Vladimir Putin has over the past six, seven weeks. Nothing strategic about it. Everything has backfired. As david said, he wanted nato to contract, it has expanded. He now has latvia and estonia going, were not scared of Russian Troops anymore. You have joe biden saying we will defend every inch of nato soil. You have the west splintering. China was doing a pretty good Job Splintering the eu, and russia as well. No more. It is hard to think historically of a greater miscalculation than what putin has made. This is 2022 has felt a lot to me like 1989. Well, when you speak to people in the National Security apparatus of this administration, the Biden Administration, you realize the core of the discussion that weve been having here for the last three or four minutes really points out there will be a real difficulty in terms of getting putin to sit at a Negotiating Table because he is fighting for the survival in his own mind of what he thinks is russia. He is not going to allow any negotiation to take any territory from him that he thinks he has gained in the donbas or everywhere. It is Vladimir Putins world view that russia is still a global power and hes not going to give it up. He will continue to do what he is doing in ukraine the russian way. Theyre going to pulverize city after city after city until eventually, probably sooner rather than later, the ukrainians launch missiles into russian territory in their Redeployment Areas and thats when the rubber is going to hit the road. It goes a step further. Putin has been a lousy president. Yes, terrible. He has been a lousy president since the beginning of his presidency. He hasnt achieved anything economically. He has achieved social setbacks across the society. What has been his only success . Well, georgia, going into crimea. He has achieved small military successes at his borders. Thats what he was doing here, hoping to distract from his failures at home. If he produces a failure here, he has nowhere else to turn. One other strategic failure. He may cut off europe from using russian oil and gas for good. This may be it. The life bood of their economy, such as it is, may go away because of his decision to go in. Wow. I will say for the United States, i think if Policy Leaders have any brains, i think they do, i think you may be able to get republicans and democrats coming together, understanding that we need to move beyond fossil fuels. That, yes, we expand exploration right now, oil exploration, maybe we drill more, maybe the Biden Administration is being more aggressive because we are in war footing, but at the same time i think this is we say it every time we go into a gulf war, but this time americans are seeing it at the pump, they are seeing it in realtime what our dependence on fossil fuels from the worlds worst lets just face it, the worlds worst actors, other than the United States, of course, are the ones with the greatest oil reserves, greatest natural gas reserves. Why dependent on those countries for another 20 years when we have the technology to move forward . And the germans now realize if they can kept their Nuclear Power plants on they would need not one drop of oil, no gas. So theyre going to revisit that policy now and, hopefully, the rest of europe will follow suit. And the United States of america. Right. My god, three mile island, do you know how much that set us back, and Building Nuclear plants here with zero carbon footprint. It is really extraordinary. We have the means to move forward and reduce green house gases, reduce reliance on russia and on venezuela and on iran. Just are we going to do it . David rothcoff, thank you for being on. Thank you for being a voice of sanity. Still ahead on morning joe, one of many today, the United Nations says more than 5 Million People have fled ukraine since the war began. We are going live to warsaw, poland, for the latest on the Refugee Crisis there. Really at historic proportions in poland. Plus, for the first time in two Years Airlines are ditching face masks. It comes after a trumpappointed judge struck down the Biden Administrations travel mask mandate. Nbcs tom costello joins us next with the latest reporting on that. You are watching morning joe. We will be right back. Before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn. Claire could only imagine enjoying chocolate cake. Now, she can have her cake and eat it too. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday, allnight protection. Can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn . ive been everywhere by johnny cash ive traveled every road in this here land ive been everywhere, man. Ive been everywhere, man. Of travel ive had my share, man. Ive been everywhere. V just after the bottom of the hour, 7 31 here on the east coast. A beautiful look at the white house. A federal judge in florida struck down the Biden Administrations extension of the transportation mask mandate, and airlines and other Transit Systems now are beginning to lift that requirement. Nbc news correspondent tom costello joins us with more from Reagan National airport. Tom, good morning. What does it look like there today . I got to tell you, about 40 i would say, 40 of the folks here are not Wearing Masks today. That coming after the judges order. Then we saw the tsa say that they will not enforce the mask mandate. The cdc still recommending you wear a mask to keep yourself safe, but it is not required. Airlines are leaving it up to their passengers whether they want to a mask up. The Transportation Security Administration will no longer enforce the federal mandate requiring masks on all u. S. Airports and on board aircraft. Finally reporter this morning many travelers are breathing a deep sigh of relief without the mask. Masks will be optional this evening for all crew and passengers as well. Reporter the nations Largest Airlines all dropped their Mask Requirements just hours after a federal judge ruled the cdc had overstemmed overstepped its legal authority, writing, our system does not permit agencies to act unlawfully in pursuit of the ends. My kids looked at me and i smiled and i was like, oh, thank you, we can breathe again. We were so happy. We are both vaccinated so you know what . Mask, done. Reporter the ruling comes just days after the cdc announced it was once again going to extend the Public Transportation mask mandate, this time until may 3rd. Following the judges decision, the tsa announced it would rescind new Security Directives set to take effect today. This morning you may be able to drop the mask on the way to the airport, too. Uber announcing passengers and drivers are no longer required to mask up while using the ridesharing service. In the skies where it has been required, relieved. It was like christmas. It was so stressful. You have people on one side that dont want to wear the mask, and on the other extreme when someone takes it off to eat or drink theyre hitting the call button. Reporter averaging more than 2 Million People every day over the past holiday weekend. The head of the Flight Attendant union says even though masks are optional there may be an adjustment period. Understand from one flight to the next you might even be given different instructions. Practice patience with each other, respect for each other. We can get through this change like all of the others. Reporter this morning, new hope the skies will become friendlier for everyone. It will no longer be such an usversusthem situation. Yeah, weve had more than 7,100 reports of bad behavior on board planes since january of last year, and the vast majority related to the mask mandate. Willie, you know a lot of people may still want to wear a mask because they want to protect themselves, they have a child, maybe somebody is immunocompromised. The airlines are hoping that you will give those people the latitude and respect to let them do exactly that, but you dont have to wear a mask on board the plane. One last note, Subway Station nationwide varies from city to city. Back to you. Still here in new york, thats right. Tom costello at Reagan National airport in washington. Thanks so much. As tom pointed out, the federal mandate was going to expire in two weeks anyway. It was going away. This was likely coming but it expedited that process. Just to toms point, humanity. If somebody wants to wear a mask, respect their decision. Do that if theyre not wearing it now. Theres no rule against it. Lets leave each other alone. It might solve problems. Stop yelling at each other, at Flight Attendants. Enough. Flight attendants are the people i felt so badly about. Oh, my gosh. People act so petulantly, acting like children. It seems to me the Biden Administration, listen, if they wanted to fight this, they could fight this and i think this decision would be reversed because this reads more like a political track than anything else. But i find it hard to believe, speaking of politics, theyre going to fight this. Certainly there was some unhappiness with the decision, who it came from, a trumpappointed judge. We heard from White House Press secretary psaki, i had one of her deputies on Way Too Early and they said they will look into it, but it is unlikely. As cases start rising in the northeast particularly, it is not something theyre likely to do considering how political unpopular it is. There is a note, if we were to get a new variant to emerge this summer or fall that is more danger than what weve seen with omicron, like the delta variant, how hard it would be to get them to put them back on. Mike, it probably will be voluntary now, right . I came through the airport two hours after this decision came down and a couple of people were there without masks, and asked for the license to put in the machine and said, i havent read the opinion, put your mask back on. To your point, it does read like a political statement than a judicial statement. I would prefer to have the cdc issue this, but it is what it is. Yes. I totally agree with you. And for people that, again, for people listening, if you just followed the Roberts Court, the Roberts Court has allowed the proper agencies to do things like this. If this went up to the Roberts Court they would likely reverse it. Again, in this case again politically it doesnt make sense anymore. Again, if you are watching and you are traveling and you are trying to figure out is it safe, is it not safe, it is safe. Weve had experts saying that the most dangerous time is when you are getting on and off a plane if your immunity is low. Make sure you wear a mask because thats when everybody is all clumped together in very small spaces. But when those engines are going theyve got great ventilation. It was good before with airlines. It is even better now. That said, again, it is a casebycase basis. I have a couple of kids, one is a diabetic, one has upper respiratory issue. Right, theyre wearing a mask. Theyre going to be wearing a mask as long as they want dad, you know, to let them stay there, just to be safe. Im getting up there in years, willie. Yeah, i will be putting a mask on you just to if im not feeling well she will be putting a mask on. Okay, to get back to this. No, no, the mask is not to give you something to talk. Yeah, it kind of works. Is it a muzzle . It is. Im telling you, you talk less with it on. Well get back to this. President joe biden will hold a call with allies later this morning. According to the white house the focus of the secure video call will be how to continue supporting ukraine and coordinate efforts to hold russia accountable. Joining us now, special advisor at the white house National Security counsel matt miller. Who will be on the call . It will be a number of our allies and partners in europe, Heads Of State that the president has talked with before, before the russian invasion and since the russian invasion of ukraine. The goal of the call will be to continue to rally the world to impose consequences on russia, something the president has made a priority since before the months before the invasion. We made clear there would be costs against russia if President Putin took this decision and you have seen the consequences we have imposed. This will be an ongoing process to continue to find consequences around the world, to get into ukraine and continue to impose consequences on russia. Matt, the issue to resupply the ukrainians with increasingly sophisticated weapons systems, a, how is it going . B, if you could, if you know, could you talk about the logistical difficulty of getting those Weapon Systems deep into the country . So, you know, it is something that we are working on every day here. We have had, you know, detailed conversations with the Ukrainian Government at all levels of our government and all levels of their government to go through what exactly it is that they need and find out how we can get them those Weapon Systems. Sometimes that involves the pentagon looking through what capabilities we have and getting them on planes and getting them into the region so they can get into the country as quickly as possible. Sometimes it involves going around to other country and finding weapons that are in their stocks more suited to what the ukrainians need. It sounds like a simple process. I can tell you it is incredibly involved. Sometimes these countries want to be back filled by u. S. Equipment, sometimes they want a third country to back fill them. It takes an incredible amount of work and something were working around the clock on here. Getting it around the country, thats something we leave to the ukrainians. There are not u. S. Forces operating inside ukraine. We get the assistance into the region, into neighboring countries and it is delivered to ukraine. We dont talk about that for obvious security, but once it is in the country it is up to the ukrainians to decide how best to deploy that on the battlefield in various locations around the country. Matt, good morning. President biden last week authorizing the 800 billion of new assistance to ukraine. President zelenskyy says he is grateful, thank you for that, but we need more. I know you guys hear that more directly than even we do. How do you answer to that, that the 40,000 rounds of artillery, for example, that he says will last him about a week, that he appreciates all the United States and the west are doing but it wont be enough. At this point, at this rate any rate to fight off the russians in the east. Are there talks about changing the kind of weaponry sent in . The question about another package is the easiest you could ask me. The answer is, of course, we are preparing the next to get into ukraine. Weve given them 40,000 Artillery Shells and we have seen the deliveries from the packages announced last week flow into the country, but it is true we need to work on more. I will say we understand the position president zelenskyy was in, if we were in his shoes we would be doing the same thing he is and if he were in our shoes he would be performing the same way we are. He needs to get western assistance in there as fast as possible and we know we need to deliver that assistance. There were six things on zelenskyys list last week, either the United States or allies and partners have supplied or are in the process of supplying everything on that list. We do take very seriously his request and we work to answer them as quickly as we can. May, matt, good morning. Jonathan lemire, great to talk to you again. We heard from president zelenskyy more and more ominous warning, his fears that russia might use whether it is Chemical Weapons or tactical nukes in the battlefield. Tell us what the white house thinks about that possibility, but more than that it has been more than a week since there were ukrainian soldiers that claim that they believed a Chemical Weapon was used on them already. At the time they said you guys said the matter was still under investigation. Do you have an update on that . You know, we have not been able to verify that claim by the ukrainians who were there in mariupol. It is very difficult, obviously, to get into that city. It is under siege. Weve not seen further confirmation and it may be some time before we are able to investigator confirm that claim. I will say the president has made clear if the russians use chemical or biological weapons there will be consequences. The nature of the consequences will depend on the level of attack. We will not speculate on how we might respond, but i will say with respect to how russia you know, what russia might do next, we dont speculate but prepare for every possibility. Special advisor for communication at the white house, National Security council matt miller. Thank you very much. Good to see you. Coming up, we will talk to a retired air force officer who says there is a nonmilitary option the west has yet to take full advantage of when it comes to punishing putin. We will find out what that option is. Also ahead, more on what is called the second phase of the Refugee Crisis in poland. We will go live to warsaw. Morning joe is back in just a moment. Im the latest hashtag challenge. And everyone on social media is trying me. car crashing but if you dont have the right Auto Insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for all of this. Yourself. So get allstate. This is a game changer who dares to be fearless even when her bladder leaks. 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Supersonic wifi. Only from xfinity. It can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. So your growing wifi needs will be met. Supersonic wifi only from us. Xfinity. It is 49 past the hour. Look at that beautiful shot of new york city. It is probably time to get in to work, you know. Yeah. Because everybody is coming to work. Were not Wearing Masks then theyre going to go out to dinner after work. I saw the restaurants were full last night, so people must be back at work . Not everywhere. Oh. No. But everyone goes out to dinner. Yeah, but the key is go to a restaurant at lunchtime, theyr restaurants. Im trying to figure this out. Concerts, young people, who work in the city . Willie is a beg club guy. They go to concerts. Mayor adam and mayors across the country are trying to get them to change. Their message is look, if its safe, you need to go back to the office. Interesting. They were so much looking at domestic issues and talking about Kitchen Table issues. President biden is headed to New Hampshire. Its hard with these images coming in from ukraine. People are pretty distracted on a number of levels. I have a story about this, they went out today, of course, the last two months now, the new situation in europe has been front of mind. Thats not going to change. They will pivot back to more domestic issues. They need to put the president back on the road. He wasnt able to travel because of the war. He is headed to New Hampshire later in the week to understand what theyre going through, inflation, rising gas prices and understands their pain is is trying to help. These are global issues, but hes trying to say, look. Were doing what we can at home. Also the message from the white house, look what we have done for you. Today, in particular, will be about touting the improvements coming for the infrastructure deal, the covid relief bill put into law, trying to say to americans, hey, this is what we have done and giving the democrats something positive. We are six months away, the white house poll numbers not very high. They wont say President Biden is doing a great job. They will say my gas is 35. 45 a gallon. They say there are more jobs than we can hope to fill. When things cost that much, people will vote against you. Most indicators show a remarkable comeback. That said, inflation is the central most issue. The president received high marks from a number of republicans. It hasnt moved miss poll numbers at all. They have gone further down. This is an effort to ramp up his travel and selling what theyve done before and also make one lastditch effort to get elements of the build back better agenda. Elements of that through senator joe manchin in passing the law on capitol hill monday. We talk about this in one way every single day, two gs, gas, groceries, the war in ukraine. The increasing violence. Housing prices. Housing, increases driftwood right, the one party, one political party. We talk about it every day. We never can talk because we will never really know the weight of the job of the presidency. I know. Its a hard josh. It is a hard job. Still ahead, nbc news matt bradley brings us the latest, as kiev braces for a rou new chapter. Plus the case for war crimes against Vladimir Putin. One of the stories driving the day on wheat. Could a big change be coming to netflix . The video giant once shunned the idea of running ads on its platform. But that stance may be in flux, according to one top executive. Quote, never say never. How the company is dealing with some of the headwinds facing a lot of streaming service . Right now, how are streaming services doing . Cnbc Andrew Ross Sorkin breaks it down in our 9 00 a. M. Hour. Hour. First psoriasis, then Psoriatic Arthritis. It was really holding me back. Standing up. Even walking was tough. My joints hurt. I was afraid things were going to get worse. I was always hiding, and thats just not me. Not being there for my family, that hurt. Woooo i had to do something. I started cosentyx®. Im feeling good. Watch me. Cosentyx helps people with Psoriatic Arthritis move, look, and feel better. It targets more than just joint pain and treats the multiple symptoms like joint swelling and tenderness, back pain, helps clear skin and helps stop further joint damage. Dont use if youre allergic to cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections some serious and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms or if youve had a vaccine or plan to. Tell your doctor if your Crohns Disease symptoms develop or worsen. Serious allergic reactions may occur. Its good to be moving on. Watch me. Move, look, and feel better. Ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. As the world watches the tragedy in ukraine, move, look, and feel better. Oil and gas ceos see an opportunity to get richer. Hiking gas prices here at home and profiting off of putins war. This will continue to happen as long as were dependent on oil. Americans have had enough. Right now, congress can accelerate the transition to clean energy. Energy that wont run out. Energy thats cheaper for all of us. Energy thats made in america to stay in america. Congress lets get it done. At the end of the day, people abhor a boss. People want voice. The throw of history throughout history is our democracy. Both history and human nature, those are powerful forces. Professionals are focused on logistics. The amateurs are worried about the strategy. Logistics eats strategy for lunch until the bullets fly. You dont know what kind of military you actually v. You come ashore, your ship has sunk. You hold efbltively you did a good job parade for the crew and 400 of them are missing . Thats not a good look. People talk about a nato nofly zone. How about a ukrainian nofly zone giving jets that we give them . Right. We are moving in the right direction here. I think we have to dial it up. I again bearing in mind the consequences. We will ask more about that ukrainian nofly zone. Some insights there this morning from former nato Supreme Allied Commander retired four Star Navy Admiral systemic racism James Stavridis. Officials say russian portions launched a new offensism iive in the eastern part of the country. Matt bradley has the latest from kiev. Reporter today a violent new chapter for ukraine after president zelenskyy said late last night the brutal assault against Eastern Ukraine had begun. The Russian Military began the fight for donbas, for which they were preparing for a long time, he said. Russia may hope to find the Eastern Region where separatists have been fighting for years easier to overpower. Zelenskyy saying we will not give away anything ukrainian, missile strikes including in lviv, once sought out as a refuge yesterday took its first fatali fatalities. Seven were killed and many more injured, at least one shot among the wounded. Resolution Ground Troops retreated weeks ago. The eastern city of mariupol, which is making its final stand. Thousands of ukrainian soldiers still hold up in a steel mill defying russia warnings to surrender or be kill. The citys remaining 100,000 residents have withstood a twomonth siege slapping hundreds of thousands of civilians. They said russian soldiers threatened to execute him because of messages on his phone. He said he escaped on foot, walking three days and sleeping rough in subzero temperatures. Reporter do you believe forces will take over mariupol . I think sooner or later, mariupol will be liberated. Sooner or later, we do believe it is ours. Reporter on optimism why mariupol has been a symbol of Ukrainian Resistance. We heard Admiral Stavridis talk about it like thal allah the alamo. How much they were able to concentrating in that area and we just have to remind people, it may fall but once it falls, thats just the beginning of russias problems. We got into iraq quickly. Thats when things got really dpliktd after we took over. Complicated after we took over. The ukrainians will lever e never allow them to hold that land bridge. Thats when things get even tougher, when theyre the ones holding the area. Russia would never have that peace of mind or security. It didnt happen, its not going to happen. Mariupol is critical to establish that chan toll crimea and the east. Thats why theyre hitting it so hard and so viciously. But it is the inspirational story. Well see how long they can hold out and the steel factor, 2,000 soldiers and a group of civilians. There is a network of tunnels. Its a massive factory. They are holding out. They are not giving in. Well see how long they can do that. The you caneian military continues to inspire. Though it has been interesting to watch president zelenskyy say, we are glad you are inspired. He is almost worried, the ukrainians are holding up well. He is saying for now. We need your help and more of it to continue this. That help is coming, of course, in even more advanced Weapon Systems as the spokesman for the pentagon Admiral Kirby said, they are going to Start Playing the ukrainians to train u. S. Weapon systems. Its been a pivot from the u. S. In the west. The package that president announced last week includes helicopters, equipment they havent been sent before. Kirby is making clear this trade would not be happening on ukrainian soil, not making the americans the fault of an attack and train their comrades on this equipment. And certainly, this would be, there is no way around it, it would be a victory for russia if they take mar poll. There is not much left. They are pounding it into oblivion. We should worry about the sentence and civilians, so this would be a strategic victory tom your point, joe, it would be hard for them to hold on and also it is for ukrainians now, they are amassing as much as the russians are reenforcing the fight in donbas, so are the ukrainian forces. They will be armed to the tee from the west. Make no mistake. We heard it earlier today, the eu is going to come in and rebuild not just mariupol, but ukraine. The United States will be a part of this. I think you will see something of the scale of the Marshall Plan for one country. They will help the ukrainians rebuild this country when this war is over. This is a country of forever resistance and while admiral, you want it to be forever on the offensive, really. Because the next principle objective, includes, you know, the russians do manage to win in quotation marks, mariupol, the objective is odesa. Thats the ultimate objective. If you can capture, if the russians ever capture the controls of odesa, they basically have a choke hold on the ukrainian economy. They make ukraine an empire filled with not much. They capture odesa. That would be huge and it should be made very difficult for the russians to do such. Youve got to activate nato and the United Nations. Thus far invisible United Nations to maybe create an able blockade preventing russians from resupplying their units that would be near odesa. Joining us, professor of history, Yale University, timothy snyder, his best selling book on tyranny is available today as an expanded audio book. Joining us, retired officer, sarah crush, a professor at Cornell University and a nonresident senior fellow at the brookings institute. Ill start with you, professor. I am wondering, its hard to stop the russians in their tracks, is there any leverage left at all in terms of sanctions . No, i have to say, i couldnt agree more with the earlier conversation that i think sanctions havent been terribly affected. I think the goals for sanctions are quite steep. I dont see that will be terribly effective. I do think this new military package is a way of supporting the Ukrainian Military in a way that they can now keep kind of clawing back. I agree with joe, too, that this is just the beginning. I dont think even if these cities at all, this is just the beginning. Weve seen 20 years of the u. S. Trying to fight against insurgents. I think with seen from the Ukrainian Military they are resilient. Now they will be a better resource and better armed. Jessica schneider, good morning. You have obviously written about tyranny and lessons learned, that we could learn from this moment here in Eastern Europe. Talk to us about what this next phase of the war could look like and to our discussion a moment ago, even if russia were to quote win and take that land bridge in the east, what does that look like Going Forward . The dithe i to hold it and how they could rally Ukrainian Resistance that much more . Number one, i appreciate the question about the larger stakes. What we have before us is a tyrranical empire destroy a flawed but nevertheless democracy. That is the story here and that story is directly checked to thousand war has played out. The ukrainians have fought it with a central way and the russians with a great distance. We see how that works itself out on the battlefield. The ukrainian aids know they are doing so to pin down the russians so that other you trainian took place can do better, so other cities wont be counted so hard. Theyre aware this sacrifice has this larger mean. As far as is war to come, what we will see is a much more concentratinged Russian Offensive against ukrainians have nose denied and are better supplied and to above all have better morale and do what theyre fighting for. So it will be interesting to see how things will go the next few weeks. Its going to be horrible. I also think the way we should be thinking about this is help ukrainians to prevail. We want this to be as short as possible for it to be peace, we have to support the ukrainians and in some ways how we protect ourselves. As someone studying tyrants and has written this bestselling career, it gets into this ukraine question. I want to ask you to get into Vladimir Putins mind. Thats a fools errand, of course, what should we know about tyrants . In particular this tyrant. That might be informative or instructive, what he might settle for and what he wants in the end. I appreciated the point earlier about logistics anothering up strategy. But there is something that sometimes lies behind all of it, which is ideology. Mr. Putin believes ukraine would fall within three days. He didnt believe ukrainians were russian, thats the underlying ideology to all of this. No, being a tyrant. He cant admit hes made a mistake. So his only choice is to double down, which is what we are now seeing in the donbas. Being a tyrant, the only thing which will matter to him, to trump his ideological commitment is the feeling that perhaps he, himself, is threatened. And the only way to get to that subjective feeling is for the ukrainians to do well on the battlefield. Thats the only way for him to feel that pressure indirectly. Professor, you have written about other ways to impose some sort of leverage on russia and perhaps the imf and the world bank are untapped resources in this fight. Tell us about that. Right. So i think these are International Financial institution that can bring some resources to bear. A little bit along the lines of the Marshall Plan of rebuilding the Ukrainian Society of the ukrainian infrom which i think will be really important in terms of its ability to be resistant and again kind of fight back against and rebuild after this damage that theyve come under. So i think these institutions, you know, they are run by europeans and americans that are very multinational can bring resources to bear that i just dont think has been a part of the conversation to the extent that it should be. Professor snyder, some day, hopefully, this war will end. But there is another war going on, a global war, a war on truth. Tell us about your concerns about that war. Thats a wonderful question. Because its really, its really the same thing that the way that russia is fighting this war depends on a larger propaganda claim about ukraine hate speech what all ukrainians are like. Hate speech about ukraineia not existing as an effort. Its propaganda at home its denied war is not. Its presented as a rescue operation, its a completely alternative reality. That is the shape of what tyranny can look like, not just in russia but around the world. We have to take a value position here and say there is truth. It matters when tyrants lie and create alternative realities. We have to let the situation, not just in ukraine, but at home. Everything we know about ukraine, everything were broadcasting and learning has to do with the fact there are thousands of courageous reporters on the ground in ukraine. Thats a reality we should be supplying to our own country and supporting everywhere we can. Not just wing wars and documenting war crimes depends upon reporters. Sustaining democracy depends on supporters. I am curious, Mike Barnacle brings out the question about the truth. Troops obviously have been on the run and in many western capitals and european capitals over the years. I am curious of your assessment of the last 55 days from washington, d. C. To warsaw. You look in the United States. Vladimir putin had a high Approval Rating among republicans in america, higher than joe biden, higher than nancy pelosi. Now hes at 2 or 3 . The lies he told about Vladimir Putin have been exposed and the overwhelming majority of americans dont believe it n. Warsaw, we have the law and justice party. That has changed. Their positioning has changed dramatically. Western democracy suddenly seems to be vibrant and strong. Vladimir putin, who we have set up as this boogeyman over the last five years for the disinformation companies he spread. Hes been exposed. Time and time again. John kirby at the pentagon standing up telling Vladimir Putin whats going on in his own army. Whats going on in his own government, whats going to happen next . I am curious, do you see any, the last six weeks a bit more clarifying in this battle between truth and lies . So i appreciate your making a connection. Because the same people who run the propaganda for russias war in ukraine since 2014, the same institutions, the same individuals were responsible for interfering in the Trump Campaign on behalf of mr. Trump in 2016. Its all one larger operation. If its not working now, it has to do with the weaknesses of tyranny we talked about before, mr. Putin has to play his hand. He didnt prepare his own country, let alone the world, for this much bigger invasion in 2022, the way he did for his invasion of 2014. So before we get cocky, lets remember how many of us were fooled in 2014 and how hard it was for us to react. The things we are doing now to help ukraine, we should have done eight years its a very good sign we are not fooled this time around. Its a good sign above all so many people value reporters, especially reporters in ukraine and so many institution, including yours have made a point of stressing that the truth matters. Not just on its own, as a kind of central ideal for democracy, itself. Professor, there are ways to counter russian disinformation. Well,ing i think its been very interesting to see is way in which the russian people are using other kind of outlets like telegram, other social media to essentially try to get around the monopoly, russias monopoly over its media. So i am not suggesting necessarily that the digital data is going to overcome the goliath and putin. But i think at the same time, there does seem to be both an interest and now an act says to information that can better level that Playing Field that they dont generally having a says to in a country like russia where there is this dominance over media and get to that big truth. So those kind of measures we are seeing, that the people are looking for more around better information i think are taking place and that may, i dont think that the russian rejeel will be sensitive to that. To the extent that more information can hurdle through the system, i think that is for the better. All right. Professor of history at Yale University timothy snyder. Retired air force officer sarah kreps. Thank you for your insight. Nearly 5 million ukrainians have been seeking refuge in surrounding countries. The leader of all in together is near warsaw meeting with aid groups and the United Nations commissioner for refugees. What are you seeing and hearing from aid workers there . So im in the warsaw east refugee Settlement Center every day. There are still dozens of trains that are arriving and on the border where people are crossing. This is at a point where already theyre at capacity. Theyre encouraging them to launch to other cities to go to other countries and give it a chance. There are about 2. 7 Million People as you said have come into poland a. Majority in big cities lime i like warsaw are at capacity. They are working hard to speak with refugees, mostly moms of young children. They have been telling me how differently it is, if they had savings before they came, theyve mostly run through them. Its very difficult to access the cash assistance which is there and will start to ramp up and give more people concern. One thing i will say is they are blown away by the hospitaltality of the polish people. Hour welcoming they have been and the sort of endless support not just the humanitarian Organization Funds in places, but the average pols stepping up to support people. The sheer numbers are really historic to have that many people coming in, in a matter of two months to a country. You say some are inspiring them to move on to other areas. Do they have money . What are the sessions that you are hearing about . Every person that i spoke to made the decision to leave kharkiv in bolsheva. Theyre lucky if they know something most dont. There is a proliferation of people trying to help. Its pretty desperate. Actually, i heard today about a family believe it or not that is going armed, went back to ukraine, because they cant make ends meet here n. Their home, they left some food behind. They have a garden and they feel they can defend themselves. The other thing we are seeing is now we are entering this sort of second wave. There were millions that came in the first few weeks. Many had the means to get out quickly. Now we are seeing more elderly, disabled folks, children with disabilities. So its not just the numbers have grown, the complexity of what their needs are when they get here to get where they are going ramped up significantly. Local aid groups are all working overtime struggling to keep up. Thank you so much. I know that you have also been speaking with teachers there and we look forward to hearing that part of the story from you when you return. Thank you. Still ahead on morning joe, ukraine leaks personal data of russian soldiers and spice. We will talk about a cia veteran about that major breach. Foreign ambassador to russia, Michael Mcfaul will be our guest hell be at the top of our fourth hour of morning joe. As we go to break, four hours, it is fun, it is, a touching tribute. Hundreds of lithuanians joined together to sing a ukrainian folk song in solidarity with the people of ukraine. Take a look. [ singing in Foreign Language ] johnny cash ive traveled every road in this here land ive been everywhere, man. Ive been everywhere, man. Of travel ive had my share, man. Ive been everywhere. Ukraines Intelligence Service claims to have leaked the personal information of more than 2,000 russian soldiers and spice. The first list has names, birth dates and passport numbers of 650 agents of russias main security agency, the fsb. The second is to contain 1,600 Russian Troops stationed in the ukrainian city of bucha where a mass murder of civilians is believed to have taken place. Nbc huz has not verified the accuracy of all that data. Joining us is a 26year veteran of the cia serving in iraqi and afghanistan one of the agencys most decorated field officers. Great to see you. I want to ask you about whats happening in the east of ukraine. First, what do you make that ukraine leaked all that information . What is the benefit of doing that . First, thanks for having me a greeks out here, we need george tenet and the greek capture. Look at the release of this information, its pretty extraordinary. We talk about hybrid warfare. The ukrainians are doing it right back at them. It matters, first of all, it gets into putins head and the more morale of these war crimes. We know who did this. We are going to hold you accountable. There is more to come, perhaps in conjunction of the allies. Two stationed inside ukraine warning them about certain things as war times. We are finally playing in the russians old sphere of hybrid warfare and we are winning. So at an event in georgia last week, cio director William Burns gave this answer when asked about the threat of Russia Using Nuclear Weapons if you crane. Given desperation of President Putin and the russian leadership given the setbacks theyve face so far militarily, none of this can take lightly to threats posed by a potential resort to tactical Nuclear Weapons or low yield Nuclear Weapons. Thats what i was talking about before with stavridis, the possibility of losing after the ukrainians win. Talk about that part of burns speech and also the speech in general and the importance of it. Sure, so last week, bill burns made in essence his first public speech. It got a lot of play. Because he gave a warning about the potential use of tactical Nuclear Weapons, when bill burns talks, we have to listen. Esaid he hasnt seen signs and the community will be laserfocused on the russian capabilities, land, sea, air. We havent Seen Movement yet. Thats a good thing. If we do, i would expect within of these authorize exposure. It would be a message to the world that putin is going down this path. Certainly, its going to be a warning to putin. There is another side, too, i think its a message to china. President xi and china dont want to see this conflict go nuclear, perhaps it will be reaching out to china and saying, put some pressure on your client. I would see disclosures. Burns makes this warning. This is one of the most respected figures in the National Security establishment. We should listen to him. In terms of the speech, itself, it was remarkable. He laid out the shortterm challenge of russia and talked about putin, an apostle of payback, what a line. There are two key points in this. He talked about how for the u. S. Operational capabilities, human intelligence, what i used to do. We are faced with what is called the ubiquitous second e technical surveillance environment. Its harder to run and cia has to adapt. The last piece of the speech was profound. He talked apt when he was a young diplomat. A cia officer on the walls at langley. I think burns laid out a positive speech. When he speaks, People Better listen. Mark, thanks so much. We appreciate it. Coming up next, China Remains one of the key lifelines for russia as much of the world targets the kremlin with cripplele sanctions. But beijing has protests in the streets of shanghai over strict lockdowns aimed at staming out a few wave of covid19. That story is next on morning joe. That story is next on morg joe. Simply irresistible applebees irresistabowls are back. Now starting at 8. 99. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. [sound of helicopter blades] now starting at 8. 99. Ugh. They found me. Nice suits, you guys blend right in. The world needs you back. Im retired greg, you know this. People have their money just sitting around doing nothing. Thats bad, they shouldnt do that. Theyre getting crushed by inflation. Well, i feel for them. Theyre taking Financial Advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] ill get my onesies®. baby one more time by Britney Spears good to have you back, old friend. Yeah, eyes on the road, benny. Welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e trade now from morgan stanley. Were getting new details this morning about chinas continued support of russia. The Chinese Foreign ministry released a statement saying china will increase its quote strategic coordination with russia, regardless of international volatility. The chinese smart move. No, the Vice President foreign minister gave that assurance to china. Joining us now, retired Brigadier General Robert Spalding, a former strategist at the pittsburgh, now ceo of the tech Security Firm semper. Also with us professor, zbhift xhiftd economist Jeffrey Sachs. It seems xi is wrecking his economy, the missteps in hong kong, embracing Vladimir Putin before he goes on a discuss military company. Obviously, they want to be a part of the system. They want to dominate a system that putin wants to disrupt. Why do they continue to embrace him . One of the things you have to deal with putin and xi is they are leaders of totalitarian regimes. A lot of times you gone get feedback thats positive. With xi, i think there is something nor sinister behind it. He wanted to see how the u. S. Would react to his invasion of ukraine. He plans a similar invasion of taiwan eventually, understanding the political ramifications of that invasion helps him understand how to deal with the west when he does something similar to taiwan. General let me ask you if you agree with general stavridis the last six weeks have had to raise questions in his head. Maybe taiwan is not worth it. Russia was supposed to roll into kiev in two or three days and it hasnt turned out that way. Do you think were over simplifying xi and thinking he may be going through that and drawing those conclusions . No, xi has basically said he is not going to leave taiwan to the next generation the chinese dont get deterred by actions of the west. What they seek to understand and accomplish is how do they take advantage of the situation with russias invasion of ukraine, its about learning the lessons, then they will turn around and use those little e lessons on the belgium Road Initiative or strengthen energy with russia and use their satellite states to isolate and secure their economy from any ill sanctions that may be coming from the west. No, i dont think it will deter xi in anyway. I think what it will allow him to do is take measures internally with china and in conjunction through the belchin Road Initiative to ensure the west didnt have the same levers that they had with regard to putin. Doctor, when you look at the economic side of putin deciding with russia. What is the calculation when they say we side with a nation that invaded a sovereign nation murdering civilians by the Tens Of Thousands and looking to amex ukraine. Does xi xaer e carry about that strategy him . What is his Economic Strategy here . I think you have to count the votes. Its a little than we think. There are 30 countries that have been put on sanctions. But they represent just 15 of the world population. There were 94 that voted to suspend russia from the human rights couple, they account for 24 of the worlds population. Basically, we have the u. S. And europe in a particular posture. Its not just china. Its almost all of the developing world is saying this isnt our battle. These sanctions are hurting us as theyre hurting the world economy. So the idea i want to be clear, the idea these sanctions will do the job, they will deter china, we just heard, they will not. But i not china being isolated. Were talking a lot to ourselves actually. I have been traveling all over the world, as usual. And the view is very, very different outside of the u. S. And europe. This is just important for us to understand. Retired air force general Robert Spalding. Thank you very much. Dr. Jeffrey sachs as well, great to see you again. Coming up, morning joes 91sthappened reporting from Eastern Europe to protect the youngest victims from Vladimir Putins aggression. I have a teacher, i have to grow with him, to play with him. Today we are having a dance class. I love kids and i think they need some rest. Maybe j you to pretend everything is okay. They are just kid. They dont need to know what war is. They didnt start it. And its not their war. Our producers are in romania right now. For the very latest on that part of the story next on morning joe. T part of the story next on morning joe. My name is monique, im 41, and im a federal contract investigator. As a single parent, i would run from Football Games to work and trying to balance it all. So, what do you see when you look at yourself . I see a person thats caring. Sometimes i care too much, and thats when i had to learn to put myself first, because i would care about everyone all the time but im just as important as they are. Botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown line, crows feet and forehead lines look better. The effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a lifethreatening condition. Do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. 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If youre on medicare, it pays to check the singlecare price before you fill your next prescription. I think we got it. Dont overpay for your prescriptions. Check the singlecare price. You might just save up to 80 on your meds. Welcome back. Romania is among the countries seeing an influx of ukrainian refugees. Morning joe chief medical correspondent dr. Dave campbell is there and spoke with victims of the violence and the aid organizations helping those caught in the crossfire. First of all today here ukrainian refugee and my family from the war and the last eight years, i used to help people in ukraine from donbas, ukraineia, one day you are a refugee on the place of people you used to help. Reporter as putins war devestates ukraine, many women and children from cities like odesa and mykolaiv are finding safe refuge. We want to help our country. This is priority and people who are here they would rather volunteer. Reporter she works for the odesa center runs a warehouse in romania. She is housing a logistical route through ukraine, bringing people outside the country and sending aid back in on the same buses. Here in romania, we are working with a variety of local ngos supporting refugees. So we are providing materials, hygiene kits, working on procuring pharmaceuticals. Reporter she told us about a repeat delivery. Three trucks to odesa, one bus, its fast. We are happy about it. Reporter another displaced ukrainian fled with her daughters and volunteers to run a shelter. Anna got help from other people. She is helping other mothers coming here to find a job to place their kids in the school for them to have normal, regular life as they had in ukraine. Her fathers feel really safe an really happy because they are already attending the local school and are trying to know the language and other kids. Reporter the pastor facilitating a bidding need into a shelter. You can see these are great. Theyre moms and children. They have nowhere to go. So we have been creating a bridge from new york to get it to directly support the hemorrhages. Reporter these resources have been crucial, bur with no end to this war in sight, further funding is needed for ngos to sustain this critical support. People are calling us, asking for food every single hour in village. We will need help for a severe long period. That was dr. Dave campbell reporting. Coming up, we got another packed hour. Still ahead, including chaos in the classroom. One of our morning papers has new reporting on the rise of anxiety and violent outbursts, as student return to inperson schooling. Plus, a story of new york tabloids showing Surveillance Video linked no a killing in queens. We have details as Police Search for a person of interest. Vladimir putin has a ban for invading ukraine. It doesnt mean he is any less violent and brutal, former u. S. Ambassador to russia, michael mcfall, has first reaction this morning to the kremlins offensive in the east. Thats straight ahead on morning joe. Morning joe. [only wanna be with you by hootie the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99 of places in the u. S. [only wanna be with you by hootie the blowfish] 54 past the hour. This Morning Police in new york city are hunting for a person of interest in the violent murder of a 51yearold mother of two who was stabbed 58 times before being stuffed in a duffel bag. Joining us now, nbc news correspondent sam brock, whos been following this. Good morning. It is simultaneously stunning and horrifying. Neighbors who knew this woman are reeling this morning. Her body was found over the weekend in a duffel bag not far from her home in queens, which she shared with her husband and two children. Authorities are searching for that person of interest who senior nypd sources say not only knew the victim but had access to the home. Reporter this morning the nypd has a murder mystery on its hands involving the brutal death of a mother from a quiet section of queens. She was killed over the weekend. Police say she was stabbed dozens of times, her body later found on the side of the road in a duffel bag in a neighborhood lined with tudorstyle homes, now grieving families. Close to home. Thats the part that is really shocking. Reporter as investigators try and track down her killer, this home Surveillance Video obtained by wnbc may show the person responsible according to Police Sources. A jogger discovered that duffel Early Morning and called 911. Yeah, we found a being. Reporter authorities then following a trail of blood to her home about a halfmile away. Its really frightening and concerning. Reporter detectives are working to construct a time line of her final hours with Police Sources saying the suspect sent her husband a threatening message from her cell phone saturday morning. Authorities have identified a person of interest. Multiple Law Enforcement sources saying its man who knew her and had access to her home. On social media, the pain palpable. One person writing, i will always remember how passionate you were about your boys and their education. Another saying, we were just on the phone the other day speaking about colleges. My heart is broken. Her husband and older son were visiting colleges on the west coast who believe their 13yearold son may have been home when she was killed. The shocking murder coming as new york city faces an uptick in overall crime, more than 43 year over year. There are many rivers that feed the sea of violence. This is a national issue. Reporter in queens, the tragedy leaving this Residential Community stunned. Its heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. By the day it gets worse. Reporter the medical Examiners Office confirming her death has been classified a homicide because of the violent nature of her death. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered. The 13yearold son was in the how else at the time . Not entirely clear, but nypd sources say its likely he was upstairs when this was happening as his mother was being stabbed in the basement. Thats one of those threats the police are following. They did bring him in for questioning, released him. What . Theres that text message, so much strange in this mix here theyre working through this morning. Certainly the threatening message that was sent at 5 00 in the morning, three hours before the body was discovered in the duffel bag, part of many questions that need to be answered here as well. The nature of the threat youre saying the victim threatened her husband . No. There was as me e men nancing threat from the person of interest according to sources from her cell phone to her husband three hours prior. To her husband. Wow. Her husband is on the west coast. College visit and gets this text message and says the rest of your family is next. Geez. Thats who the Police Department is looking for. Sam brock, thank you very much for that report. We are two minutes before the top of the hour as we roll into the fourth hour of morning joe at 9 00 a. M. On the east west coast, 6 00 a. M. Out west. Weve got a lot to get to. We start with russia opening a longanticipated new phase of the war in ukraine, launching its eastern offensive in a bid to seize the countrys industrial heartland. Ukrainian Officials Say the kremlins goal is now to gain full control over the donbas region. In a video address, ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said a significant part of the entire russian army is now concentrated on the battle for the donbas. Yet he vowed no matter how many Russian Troops are driven there, we will fight, we will defend ourselves. Meanwhile, the fullscale assault on ukraines east comes as the last fighters in mariupol continue to resist. The besieged steej port city is reportedly on the brink of falling to russia. One ukrainian commander in mariupol says russia dropped bunkerbuster bombs on the steel plant where ukrainian troops are Still Holding out. Alongside thousands of civilians who remain trapped there, intense Street Fighting has broken out near that factory, which stretches for than four square miles. Bunkerbuster bombs and civilians hiding underground there. Weve heard so much about this coming invasion from russia in the east. This morning we asked retired fourstar navy general James Stavridis what the Offensive Will look like. On the russian side of this, well see a lot of parts moving on the battlefield. Dont look for a sweeping cohesive battle plan on the ukrainian side. Look for endless resistance. They are here to stay. And lets close on a snapshot of mariupol, a doomed city, but where you see defenders like at the alamo standing and delivering for their country, magnify that through the ukrainian thats the steel factory were looking at right now. Thats their alamo. It is. Admiral, weve heard for a while this bat until the donbas is going to look different to what weve seen to this point in the war. Urban warfare, guerrilla fighting, and this is going to be more setpiece combat. Explain to viewers what that means. Are these going to be tanks lined up . What sort of