coming up this hour, how the invasion shows trump's misunderstanding of war. then, the big decision on the january six committee is about to make before it goes public. and jared kushner's deal with saudi arabia. what did he promised to get a two billion dollar investment for? i'm a man why dean, let's get started. all right, we have some breaking news on day 51 of russia's invasion of ukraine. russian state media's reporting that major general vladimir floral, the deputy commander of russia's eight army has been killed in combat. nbc news has not been able to independently confirmed this reporting, but it would make jenner floor off at least eight russian general to be killed in ukraine. and it follows the combat depths of another 24 kernels. how do we explain this sorry state of putin's military campaign? washington post communist max boot has a theory, and i was to do with anti wokeness. areas that trump and putin another like-minded ideals have for years decried wokeness. trump in particular has they dearly suggested that military shouldn't be constructed by humanitarian concerns. trump has bordered on expressing fondness for war crimes. he's endorsed torture, and even kill the families of terrorists. and all that is on full display right now in ukraine, russian troops are about as anti woke as you can get. and the russians are deliberately targeting civilians -- it's actually a major source of our strength. let's get right into our saturday night panel. with hayes brown, he's a communist for msnbc daily. jonathan alter, presidential historian author and commenter for the daily beast. and also msnbc political analyst. and stephanie miller, the josefa stephanie miller on sirius xm. it's great to have all of you with us. for the hour, i want to start with, you your thoughts on max boot's argument here. is that brutality of the russian military hurting its ability to actually conduct this military operation? >> yeah, i think that he has a good point when he points out that one of the reasons why you stopped seeing emerati armies -- is because professional armies are just more effective at focusing on the task at hand, when actually moving and acting against the enemy, against the actual military that they're fighting against. and one of the theories i feel like people like trump have is that if you just bomb it population enough, you will call them into submission. with enough force, you will convince the people that there is no good in fighting back. and that is what we've been seeing so far in ukraine. as you, know the russians have, you know, pounded mariupol, have really worked to try and impose their will on ukraine by force. what we've seen is a more and more commitment from the ukrainians to actually stand and fight. and that, i feel like, is something that they just not have really taken into account, this fact that as you continue to enact these were crimes against ukrainian people, the more they will continue to resist, especially so long as the western united states continues to happen support them and their efforts to repel the russian forces. >> jonathan, is this a microcosm, you think of a larger argument that the failures of the russian military are just one example of how, you know, the right in this country fundamentally misunderstands wokeness? fundamentally misunderstands wokeness? yeah, i mean, wokeness can also be being more sensible and humane and the way you motivate people. you don't motivate an army with authoritarian, an authoritarian approach. yes, the army is an authorities structure, and there's a chain of command,. but you want the army to be fighting for something. and motivation becomes a really big factor here. there's a huge motivation gap. what motivates the average russian soldier? he's in somebody else's country for what purpose? people have to be fighting for something. and you can go back to napoleon to find out how moral is to material, 3 to 1. in other words, you can have a huge advantage in troop size, arms, but if you're on the rising side of the moral equation, you're in about place. and then there's another factor that is important, and that is the structure of russian military. it's very different from that of the american military. they have no non commissioned officers in the russian army. no sergeants. they don't have that level. we have officers, and then they have grunts. and without that intermediate level, like an hour military, sergeants, you don't have the unit cohesion the you need to be an effective fighting force. this is a huge factor that disadvantages the russian army. >> yeah, and speaking of morale, all have to do is look at the ukrainians. they're fighting for their country, they're fighting for their existence, and that is making the difference in the battlefield, without a doubt. stephanie, the new york times published an extensive piece on view on the hill. she's the intelligence expert that testified that trump's first impeachment. he'll actually explain the things that she learned back then, including the way trump privatized foreign policy for his own purposes, and had a narrow goal to stay in power irrespective or other people wanted. those were her words. is a striking to you how much a foreign policy today specifically in ukraine is still being affected by the legacy of trump and his inability to help the kenyan government when it needed it to prepare for what ended up happening? >> oh, it absolutely is a gateway to what's happening now in ukraine. and by the way, with this woke mean? does that mean variance torture? my dad was an assistant prosecutor, and i don't understand the pro clutching about president biden calling a genocide a genocide. or calling it or criminally war criminal. i mean, you've got to call evil out before you can defeat evil, don't you? there is no question about what is happening, and all the things you set up or absolutely correct about trump. he pardon they were criminal. he absolutely rooted for torture and on and on. thank god that america is again on the side of good, and joe biden has united the world against this evil, this genocide, this war crime that we are seeing in ukraine. >> yeah, you bring up in great point about how important it is to call out evil. jonathan, you and i have described the u.s. as being in a state of, quote, the evolution with the checks on executive power. and she makes clear that despite the change in u.s. administration, one thing remains constant, that is, quote, putin has been there for 22 years. he's the same guy with the same people around him, and he's watching everything. your thoughts on her assessment of it? >> this is an extraordinarily interesting interview in the new york times magazine, and her book, by all accounts, is outstanding. she tells a really in some ways, frightening story. she went into the trump administration as a russian expert and a putin expert. and she found that president trump resembled vladimir putin more than he resembled his own american predecessors. in other words, he is an authentic authoritarian. and then, of course, in the first impeachment she testified because she felt that he had put his own narrow political interest trying to spread dirt about joe biden ahead of our national interests. and very much ahead of helping the ukrainians hold off the russians who are already fighting in eastern ukraine. and then something even more interesting happens, which is that on january 6th, gonna hail reports that it was like a light bulb went off. she realized that there was a connection between her experience with ukraine and events of january 6th. and that putin, in 2020 had changed the russian law so that he could be president for life. and it was clear that the spoon wannabe donald trump, was trying to change our american constitutional system so that he can remain in office. he even said publicly that he thought he had lost the first years of a storm because of what he called the russia hoax, he stopped publicly about being against the two term limit. he clearly was trying to stay in power like putin on january six, and that's the connection. >> yeah, he doesn't joked about wanting to stay in office for life the way that president xi and china has been, at least for now. hayes, have to get your thoughts on this poll it shows that more than eight in ten americans think that russian president vladimir putin is actually a work criminal. are you surprised that there are 20 or so percent, maybe 10% who don't think he's a workable? >> not necessarily surprised. i would say that the 10% or flat out saying no they do not think that he is working middle, i think that there are the types that are as affected by russian propaganda as the russians are themselves. because russia has been going all out to try to paint this as a situation of not of their own making. they said that, it's all nato's fault for expanding over all of these ears. that's why we're invading. they're trying to say, oh, we were provoked by ukraine, and putin said that ukraine did this all as a special military operation because ukraine wants to destroy russia as of that were possible. i think that 10% of americans who believe that putin is a -- not a war criminal. i think they're buying into the. i think there are people who just don't know enough to make that call, and i respect them honestly. there are people who said i don't know enough about the situation to actually make a judgment call. their goods, i give them a pass. >> they might be lower experts who are like, i'm gonna wait to see the child cannot before i make this decision. i'm gonna ask all of you guys to -- >> ayman, can i jump in for a second. i'm not a mathematician, but is it ten people? is it 10%? or is it ten people? republicans want the mosque on january 4th, on july 4th. >> runoff to double check that, we'll get back to you on exactly who those ten people were. but i'm gonna ask all of you to stick around, we're gonna take a quick break, next, should house majority leader kevin mccarthy be asked to testify before the january six committee? how about speaker nancy pelosi? we're gonna discuss that, but, first my friend richard louis is. here >> some of the breaking news we have, some people are shot and wounded in a shooting in a shopping mall in columbia, south carolina. two of those victims -- the shooting occurred around 2:40 pm eastern, about ten miles outside of downtown columbia. two additional people were injured in the rush tags at that mall. the gunshot victims ages range from 15 to 73. they've all been stabilized. three people who are carrying firearms have been detained in connection to the shooting. the police chief is saying, quote we don't believe this was random. we believe they knew each other, and something led to the gunfire. we'll have more details as we get them right here on msnbc. for now, more ayman, right after this. after this (cto) ♪ i want the world ♪ (production manager) ♪ i want the whole world ♪ (supervisor) ♪ i want to lock it all up in my pocket. ♪ (ceo) ♪ i want today. ♪ ♪ i want tomorrow. ♪ (warehouse worker) ♪ presents and prizes and sweets and surprises... ♪ (driver) ♪ of all shapes and sizes. ♪ (dispatch) ♪ i want it noooooow! ♪ (vo) t-mobile for business has 5g that's ready right now. and it's easier than ever to get your projects done right. with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness check out angi.com today. angi... and done. wayfair's got just what you need to be outdoorsy. and when you book and pay throug your way!ered by our happiness shop the biggest selection of outdoor furniture and furnish your habitat from you habitat. get a new grill and cook over an open flame. now that's outdoorsy! go wild on garden decor. find shelter from the elements and from predators. or just be one with nature. this year spend less and go all outdoorsy at wayfair. ♪ wayfair you got just what i need ♪ this is elodia. she's a recording artist. 1 of 10 million people that comcast has connected to affordable internet in the last 10 years. and this is emmanuel, a future recording artist, and one of the millions of students we're connecting throughout the next 10. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students, past... and present, can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities. >> the general six committee has been working behind the scenes mostly for eight months. and soon, they're going to take all of that work and make it public to the american people. the committee has said it is planning the to hold public hearings as early as may. and as political reported this week, there are still quite a few crucial decisions that the committee has to make before then, including when and how the committee will call on president trump to testify. if they ask to speak with mike pence, the vice president, mitch mcconnell, or even nancy pelosi, if they're gonna subpoena republicans who refused to cooperate, and perhaps most importantly, what they're going to do after they release their findings and make those hearings. public. back with me now, my all-star panel. hayes brown, jonathan alter, stephanie miller. let me begin with you, hayes. it's doubtful that trump level agreed to testify to the january six committee, but you think the community should still ask him, even if it's just to send a message to the american public about it? >> yeah, i think that they should actually ask him. and while i know that it feels improbable that they will actually go so far as to issue a subpoena to trump, to actually try and put the force of the law behind this effort, i do think that, should president trump prove uncooperative, i think they should at least try. i feel that this is something important, and that, you do want to take this to court, and you don't want to actually go through those hearings. i know it's one of trump's favorite things is to delay tactics, to file appeal after appeal, after appeal. to try and make the pace that, you know, he has all meaningful executive immunity, which is completely false. i feel like this is still one of those times where even if that actual subpoena were to fail, in getting trump to testify before the final report of the january six committee, i feel like the effort to make the point, the presidents should have -- especially done in private instances, listen to the law from congress and from -- >> what about, jonathan, what about my pants, or even and say pelosi, about that day? should they be asked? i mean, mike pence has broken from trump since the riot. does he have something to offer? does nancy pelosi have something to offer? where do you come down on that? >> i think nancy pelosi should definitely testify. that's because, you know, she had some, it was a very minor role, but she nominally presided over as sergeant of arms. and mitch mcconnell nominally provided over the senate sergeant of arms. they wanted if -- that's part of the complete investigation. mike pence is obviously central to this whole thing. he should definitely be asked to testify. i think kevin mccarthy should as well. he spoke to trump in the middle of the attack on the capital. and instead, asked, what relevance is that? well, it's a huge relevance. and then, you know, on january 13th kevin mccarthy says that president trump, quote, bears responsibility for that attack on our capitol. think about that for a second. take a step back, and think about what that means. somebody who says, who bears responsibility is now referring to him, as the leader of the republican party. he is for him, you know, being president, that he is nominated. he's the same guy that has the case to his car, after what he did, he said he bears responsibility. of course he should be questioned about that. as for president trump himself, yes, it should subpoena him. i don't think they should waste a lot of time on, it or let them have a delay there in the investigation. because obviously, he will go there and lie, as he always does. so, even if he was, they decide to testify, it wouldn't be significant. >> stephanie, i mean, it's frustrating for a lot of people who are watching the justice department and all of this, because they have not, the justice department have not taken any action on the criminal referrals issued to the republicans who have refused to cooperate. what is the point of anyone cooperating, if there is no punishment when they don't abide by the department of justice? >> amen, i'm with you. i am for -- and i want it now. i hope you don't mind me calling me calling you, daddy. just for tonight. listen, i hope trump testifies, just so he could take the fifth -- you can play that tape over and over again, why do you take the fifth unless you're guilty, only the mob takes the fifth! [laughs] i think you're absolutely right. i am really impatient as a lot of people are. i mean, i have to get some of my legal experts on my show have said it could be because mark meadows is a target, that he has not been indicted yet. i hope so. i hope it's like jaws, and there's a lot going on underneath the water that we don't know about yet at the doj, because it sure looks like there's two systems of justice. one for the rich and powerful, and one for all the rest of us. >> yeah, it is just a remarkable -- >> go ahead. >> sorry, i was just gonna say something in defense of merrick garland, and the department of justice. he has taken a lot of income, on twitter and other other places. we don't know what they're doing, and they warned that the january six material, which hasn't been turned over to them yet, because the january 6th committee has not completed its investigation. and by the way, there is no ticking clock for merrick garland. he doesn't have to do something, you know, before they lose congress. the jan six committee, they have to wrap this up, before the election, because, you know, they could happen to be in control next year. parliament is not operating into that. it is a longer time horizon to possibly prosecute trump. and we should not assume that he is somehow, you know, failing to turn over any thing again. >> listen, you're absolutely right. you bring up a very fair point. i don't disagree with anything you set. but to be specific, i think what we are talking about, and frankly from stephanie's point, it's about those that are defying the subpoenas from congress. so put aside the trump investigation, fair enough. he's got the timeline that's different than the committee. but when it comes to those who are defying a subpoena from congress, who are ignoring those subpoenas, that is, i think, the issue that people are saying, well, you can move on that pretty quickly. he is violent, and those are not responded to the subpoenas are simply violating congressional orders. >> yeah, i'm with you on that. i'm sick of them treating subpoenas like it's an invitation to a party in the hampers, and just like, it's about this weekend is not good for me. that's not how subpoenas work. it's not how our justice system is supposed to work, ayman. -- >> let me just double down on -- that >> you could have a lot more experience with getting involved in the party, then i do. i have to say. -- >> that was theoretical, for me as well. >> i love the analogy, but it actually is the way congressional subpoenas, not subpoenas from prosecutors, but congressional subpoenas have worked over many, many decades. the people say, who are subpoenaed, well, it's not convenient for me then, and there is a negotiation between the executive and there's live branches over the responses to the subpoenas. and the courts like to stay out of that. they think it's something for the executive and legislative to work out on themselves. and they haven't had in the past. they played hardball, which it would be, if merrick garland got prosecuted. having said that, i wish he would. because it would put more pressure on these witnesses to talk. >> let me, hayes, let me turn to another element of reporting here. and that was the republicans chip roy, senator mike lee, texting mark meadows about the 2020 elections, and overturning it. and i want to read for you one from senator ali. he says, if a very small handful of states where to have their legislatures appoint alternatives lace of delegates, there could be a path. i just spoke to congresswoman jackie speier last hour, i'm not sure if you got her not. she said that these text signal that the committee has a treasure trove of incriminating documents. what do you make of that? your reaction? gee agree with the congresswoman? >> i do, actually. i think that it's fascinating. i mean, mark meadows seems to have been tasked fixing literally everyone in washington after the election. and the fact that it's his text messages that have been turned over is clearly a booing for the committee and their investigation. ginni thomas text, and text with other people -- donald trump jr., he was the focal point for so much of trump's efforts to overturn the election. so on the specifics of the checks that were released from cnn this week, i think they're fascinating. i think the fact that mike lee who was pushing this theory, that was also trying to be carried out in the justice department. one of the lawyers who has refused to and to answer the congressional subpoena, he'll work in the justice department. and also, attorney general, to try and keep this hope alive, leave with all this favoritism, pushing them to say, despite the majority of the voters saying otherwise, that trump won the electoral college votes, and let congress work it out. they were trying to exploit that loophole, and it shows how widespread indeed this belief inside the party that the election, the will to voters of something that can be worked around, when it comes to the presidency, and who could win an election. so i think that, i'm very glad that mark meadows is as popular as he was on the time, because he has provided so much to work with for the committee. >> i was -- >> can i just say, i love the trajectory of the texts. they all stole a car, and they're all riding. this is great. such a great idea! great, and there's something like, oh crap, there's cops. i'm jumping out of the window. like what are you doing? [laughs] >> i was gonna say, with a number of people have come forward to text mark meadows after the election, i feel like we were the only four people who did not get a text message from mark meadows. so -- [laughs] i wonder what are we doing wrong that we did not get a text from mark meadows after the election. i'm gonna ask all of you guys to stick around. we've got a lot more to discuss. >> next, we're gonna talk about jeb kushner's for, and how it got two billion dollars from a saudi wealth fund that is one by the crown prince, despite objections from literally almost everyone that was involved in it. ed in it ♪ limu emu ♪ and doug. ♪ harp plays ♪ only two things are forever: love and liberty mutual customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. (emu squawks) if anyone objects to this marriage, speak now or forever hold your peace. 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all right, so the new york what if it's a company of people working beside friends and neighbors? pursuing 100% renewable energy in our operations. aiming to protect, manage or restore millions of acres of land. and offering you more sustainably sourced products so you can become part of the change. so, can a company make the planet a better place? we're working on it, every day. times is reporting this week that jared kushner secured a two billion dollar investment from fund led by the saudi crown prince just six months after leaving the white house. those responsible for helping the oversee the fund where, to put it mildly, highly skeptical about giving kushner's farm all of this money. and for good reason. they noted that trump's son-in-law was no relevant experience and the firms operations were deemed unsatisfactory in all aspects. but kushner perhaps to no surprise to anyone got the money anyway. my saturday night panel is back with me. hayes, also with you. ethics experts feel that this could be a potential payback for deals jarred made while he was in the white house. it's hard for us to know what motivated him while he was in the white house, but what's your read of this two billion dollar pale? >> oh, it absolutely is payback for being the guy in the trump white house who, for some bizarre reason, has the middle east portfolio. there was no reason for jared kushner to be the person who is handling the saudi brief. and he was. he became decent friends, in a way, with mohammed bin salman. but they were yoking it up a millennial to millennial, when jarred wanted office and made an impression. and the fact that the crown prince felt that it was worth it to go beyond what his advisors had said. i find that fascinating that, first of all, it's such an easy thing for people who have served in government to start a patch funds and expect people to just give the money. the number of people who have started up hedge funds when they left the trump administration are large. the new york times reported that a billion dollars was given to stephen you can, former treasury secretary, but new can has experience with investing. he knows what he's doing. mick mulvaney, maybe not so much. he is but darted a hedge fund after leaving. and he ran omb. poorly, but he ran it. so i think that would make more sense than kushner was no relevant experience. though, i agree that it is probably either payback for service done during the trump administration, or it's an investment in case trump those returned to power. because if he does, there's no way jerry kushner is not going back with him. >> stephanie, i've got to ask you. fox news here zero mentions of jared kushner. 68 mentions of hunter biden. i'm sure that does not surprise you. >> i'm gonna say, the really important thing about the judge kushner story is that hunter biden had a laptop. i'm not sure your wear of that. and right away, that's suspicious, isn't it? you have a laptop a man, i don't think so. >> whatever the color story, there is no there, there, with the hunter biden laptop. in the war, we heard that jared kushner got two billion dollars for, i don't know, covering up a bone saw murder, perhaps? allegedly. don jr. texting to help overthrow the government of united states. and here we go again. it's like the hillary email story. there was nothing there. he's not in the government, he's on the government now, there's no evidence he did anything wrong yet. let alone that joe biden did anything about it. is just, to the point of adversity that you know that there is a mother bombshell about jarred and don jr., and then it's hunter biden's locked up, here we go again. >> jonathan it does, to stephanie's point, bring back the question of the relationship because, you know, by all reports jared kushner was a friend, a personal friends, perhaps a whatsapp buddy with the crown prince of saudi arabia. there were reports that he was consulting, or perhaps even advocating for him within the administration. certainly after the killing of jamal khashoggi. what do you make of the spot from the saudi will fund that is directly managed, or at least overseen by the crown prince to jared kushner? >> first of all, i can tell you something tonight that has not been reported before that comes from sources inside the private equity industry, and that is the original number was ten billion. and it was reduced. ten billion was the original number that mbs and jared kushner we're talking about. now, to put this in a little bit of context, jared kushner has no background in private equity. he was involved in a failed real estate deal in new york. he's a son of a very wealthy real estate developer, and the son-in-law of a less wealthy than he claims to be real estate developer. but that's like saying that somebody who plays ice hockey can immediately go to the top of the nfl. yeah, they're both rough sports. real estate is rough. but private equity is a totally different world. so this is an enormously corrupt payoff from a killer who just was quoted in the atlantic recently saying that khashoggi wouldn't have even been in the top ten of people that he would have liked to see him killed. that was his excuse for why he wasn't thousand volleyed as there's been established that he was. he's a killer who recently executed more than 100 saudis at the same time. it got very little attention. and this is an investment in the future of the relationship. and maybe the most corrupt thing that the relative of a president has ever done. and there's been quite a bit of corruption by the relatives of providence. billy carter, roger quinn, and others. a lot of history of the. but this is the worst. >> a man can i just say, jonathan -- i was gonna say, you're absolutely right, jonathan. the entire trump family is morally repugnant, and it's gross that on what's up with mbs like the teenage girls. as you said, with a killer, a murder. they are transactional and despicable, and morally repugnant. >> and the flip side to that is the concern, if in fact, trump wants to run again, and once, and jared kushner does return to government office he will have a government wealth funds that has two billion dollars. it's gonna be hard to separate that. i think that will also raise a lot of ethical questions. but obviously, still, that's a big if. thank you all for joining us this evening. coming up, it's not just a supreme court. see our president biden's diversifying the federal bunch like no other president. got about that, next. no other president. got about that, next got about that, next covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too by asking your healthcare provider if an oral treatment is right for you. oral treatments can be taken at home and must be taken within 5 days from when symptoms first appear. if you have symptoms of covid-19, even if they're mild don't wait, get tested quickly. if you test positive and are at high risk for severe disease, act fast ask if an oral treatment is right for you. covid-19 moves fast and now you can too. 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(vo) what's not to love! verizon is going ultra, so you can get more. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. , >> president biden and announced five new judicial nominations to federal courts this week, further diversifying the federal bench. just one week after the historic confirmation of ketanji brown jackson to the supreme court, the mind nominees include, judge john lee, who would be the first asian american to serve on the chicago-based seventh circuit court of appeals. litigator, greg williams, who would be the only judge of color currently serving on the u.s. district court for the district of delaware. and the second african american judge to ever serve on the district of delaware. and attorney nancy, who would be the first hispanic woman to ever serve as a federal judge in the state of illinois. this is president biden's 16th round of nominees for federal positions. bringing the number of announced federal judges, judicial nominees i should say, to 90. in all, 72% of biden's picks for judges have been woman. 30%, black 21% hispanic, 19% asian american. and importantly, biden's traditional nominees have also brought a diversity of experience to the bench, with the president dominating everyone from public defenders, civil rights attorneys, and nonprofit lawyers to the bench. we'll be right back. 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>> well, it happened actually a couple of nights before the invasion started, and many ukrainians couldn't sleep and i was constantly alarmed with a sound of tanks, what to do, how to avoid what is about to happen. and actually, i've been trying to mainstream the awareness about russian colonialism, and what they had done to my country, my people, for some years. but particularly, those nights, it was obvious to me that what is about to happen to ukraine is basically just a copy paste job that russia will do, not only to our own country, years after years, and decades, and centuries, but to many other countries. and that's why, in my way of dealing with the situation and anxiety, i want to put together some cliffsnotes, explaining that one is about to happen to ukraine has been happening, so many times before. i put this picture of grozny and chechnya, which was razor down to the ground by putin into thousands, as kind of a provocative picture of what could happen if the world does not react and does not stand up to russian colonialism. i had no idea that this unfortunately, the same thing in mariupol or in kharkiv, or another ukrainian cities will start to look like a just several days from when i finished putting it together. >> why do you think that we are so reluctant to heed the lessons of history. because, i mean, as you documented and you wrote about, history repeats itself, time and time again. but despite this, before russia invaded, even quite honestly, the ukrainian government was doubtful that vladimir putin would follow through with this invasion. so why do you think we are so reluctant to heed the lessons of history? >> well first of all, i think all of us were reluctant, just because we couldn't just put ourselves, and imagine the situation, what could happen to our land. because let's be honest, ukraine has been going through a genocide, russian genocide, before. and the war that happened in 2014. so this is not something you would try to imagine happening to your families in your homeland. that's why we were very defensive about it. but in terms of westerners, my guess, as a journalist, just to try and put together all the evidence, i learned over these years how hard it is to do, because russia spent so much resources for decades before, to erase any proof of those atrocities committed against neighboring nations, or even indigenous nations inside russia. and it's still spending an insane amount of money, even to this day, in trying to hijack this narrative, or trying to erase those stories, and erase our voices. so, i think that's part of the problem. but also, representation matters. unfortunately, when i look at those days, and these shows, and special american shows, i still don't see any ukrainian voices actually explaining ukrainian in english, despite that we have so many people who are capable of doing that. and instead, ukraine is being watched playing, as i call it by westerners who sometimes, many of them do not know a word of ukrainian. so in the end, we ended up with a situation where people are just not aware enough of the at least historical facts. >> you are working with that ukrainian artists to make this an illustrated guide book, based on this tread. what do you hope to accomplish, based on what we are just saying, about what the west doesn't know about ukraine, it doesn't understand, which is something you want the west to know and understand about ukraine? >> i think most of all, i want the story of russian colonialist's to be told in the proper manner. and you know, you cannot imagine how many refusals by the foreign publishing houses i had before this, when people would say, well, this sort of russian colonialism, the stop it, why did your country, it might be controversial. where it can be very uncomfortable, or even farfetched. so now, i feel like this is finally gained momentum, when a lot of people understand that this is not just putin's war, this is not just something that just happens now. it has a long history and a long pattern of the same thing happening, and the same thing of russia doing to the neighbors over and over again. and i think it's also important for me as a ukrainian, because when you grow up as a ukrainian, your life is shaped in a way that is affected by colonialism in so many ways. for example, why speaking ukrainian wasn't very popular when i was growing up? you know, ukraine was very -- many russians as well. so this is something i want to do for me, for ukrainians, for us. but also, for the western world to finally be aware of russian colonialist. >> all right. maksym eristavi, it's great to see you again. thank you so much for joining us, and speaking to us and sharing your insights. best of luck to you and your family. >> thank you so much, ayman. really appreciate it. >> and thank you for making time for us at home. come back tomorrow night at nine eastern on msnbc. i will speak to france are just. , jr about creating art in the middle of the war. stick around for the documentary, paper and glue, that follows jr from a prison in california to a shantytown in brazil. that's 10 pm, eastern, tomorrow, right here on msnbc. until we meet again, i am ayman mohyeldin. have a good night. good night. and, we're back! it's time to see which chew provides the longest-lasting flea and tick protection. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection, nearly 3 times longer than any other chew. bravo, bravecto! bravo! when tired, achy feet make your whole body want to stop, it's dr. scholl's time. our insoles are designed with unique massaging gel waves, for all-day comfort and energy. find your relief in store or online. staying up half the night searching for savings on your prescriptions? 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