politicians. they are rare finds in the world of politics because they are not 100% dependent on speech writers, in fact not at all. they both speak from the heart and the mind, in truly beautiful combinations of intellect and determination and the first is presidents lewinsky who has given his very best interview yet, by far, to the atlantic's jeff goldberg and an apple bomb. one reason it is president-elect skis best interview is that there were no cameras present. he said he was more relaxed without tv cameras when he was speaking with his interviewers. we will consider what president zelenskyy had to say in our first segment tonight and in our second segment tonight you will meet a member of the missouri house of representatives, ian mackay, and he represents a district we are he believes he could never have gotten elected to the missouri town where he grew up because of the strong anti-gay prejudice in that area. he brought his life experience to the floor of the missouri house this week and win mackey argued against the republican bill that could limit transgender participation in school sports, no one could possibly have written the speech that he delivered. that speech by ian mackey was something that did not have to be written. he did not have to write it himself because it just poured out of him in a controlled, righteous fury that is a painful and beautiful thing to be hold. it is, i guarantee you, the best and most moving speech in this week in american politics and in most weeks of american politics. we'll bring you that speech in our second segment tonight and in mackey will join us as a guest on this program, for what i heard is the first of many appearances. and presidents ellen skis best interview ever with the atlantic -- in it, he said he feels like bill murray, and it is at moments like that in this fascinating interview that you realize, volodymyr zelenskyy, is more fluent in american popular culture and british popular culture than any other president in the world, possibly even including joe biden. president zelenskyy told told the atlantic, quote, i like new questions, he said. it is not interesting to answer the questions you already heard. he is frustrated, for instance, i repeated request for his wish list of weapons. when some leaders ask me what weapons i need, i need a moment to calm myself because i already told them the week before. it is groundhog day. i feel like bill murray. later, president zelenskyy's staff followed up that answer with a very specific list of ukraine military needs now, artillery, multiple launch rocket systems, armored vehicles, tanks, military aircraft. president zelenskyy says that the leaders of the countries he is asking to supply weapons to do not feel the urgency level he feels. quote, they just live in a different situation. as long as they have not lost their parents and children, they do not feel the way we feel. he makes the comparison to the conversations he has with the extraordinary defenders of mariupol, the besieged port city, where 21,000 civilians may have been killed so far. for example, they say that we need help, we have four hours. and even in kyiv, we don't even understand what four hours are. in washington, for sure they do not understand. however, we are grateful to the u.s., because the planes with weapons are still coming. president zelenskyy issued more of his work history in entertainment and comedy in this interview than any other previous interview. before he became president of ukraine, his film and television production company had offices in moscow as well as ukraine. and viewers in countries all over the region. but now, he says russians are completely cut off from any information that could change their lives about what vladimir putin is doing, including comedy. president silently said that people who used to work within russia, people he knows in russia, have changed. quote, become more brutal. that surprises him. he said, quote, it is the north korean virus. putin has invited people into this information bunker, so to speak, without their knowledge. and they live their. it is, as the beatles saying, a yellow submarine. he said people cannot survive without a sense of humor. without a sense of humor, as surgeons say, they would not be able to perform surgeries, to save lives and to lose people as well. they would simply lose their minds without humor. and in the best direct question asked of president zelenskyy, reporters asked, is putin afraid of humor? a very much so, zelenskyy said. humor, he explained, reveals deeper truths. gestures were allowed to tell the truth in ancient kingdoms, he said. but russia fears the truth. comedy remains a powerful weapon because it is accessible. complex mechanisms and political formulations are difficult for humans to grasp. but through humor, it's easy. it is a shortcut. the new york times, when president zelenskyy, it can only laugh at the absurd things that vladimir putin and his ally, president lukashenko of belarus, say about ukraine. quote -- putin and lukashenko, they make it sound like some kind of political monty python. president-elect-y says that, eventually, the russian people and new action leaders will have to do what germany did after world war ii. quote, zelenskyy says, they are a frayed to admit guilt. he compares them to alcoholics who do not admit that they are alcoholic. if they want to recover, they have to learn to accept the truth. russians need leaders they choose, leaders they trust. leaders who can then come in and say, yes, we did that. that is how it worked in germany. president zelenskyy said this easter weekend would be different in ukraine. quote, people usually pray for the future of their families and their children. i think that today they will pray for the president, just to save everyone. with the russians planning for attacks in eastern ukraine on easter weekend, president zelenskyy said, i cannot understand how a christian country, the russian federation, will be killing people on these very days. this is not christian behavior at all, as i understand it. on easter, they will kill and they will it be killed. leading off our discussion tonight is jelani cobb, staff writer for the new yorker and professor of journalism at columbia university, and a political contributor. and fintan o'toole, columnist for the irish times in a new york review of books. he is the author of, we don't know ourselves, a personal history of modern ireland. professor cobbe cobb let me begin with you. and what we learned about the man, zelenskyy, as he is approaching this greatest challenge of his life for the lives of any president. >> i think you are right in saying that it is quite an astounding interview. we have seen him speak passionately and compellingly and articulate the cause of the ukrainian people in many formats and forms. but to hear him or to read him in this format, it gives you a real sense of how nuanced and thoughtful and intelligent he is as a leader. >> and fintan o'toole, i was struck by his comparison to germany post-world war ii. and germany's clear admission of guilt. and changing its direction in a way that the world could be confident that it was no longer nazi germany. that is rare. that's a rare outcome at the end of conflicts, that one side says, we were wrong. it seems like an outcome we can hope for but not very soon in russia. >> i think, lawrence, that that is true. americans know this too. when people buy into lies and when they buy into absurdity, when they buy into all the things that zelenskyy so brilliantly articulated in this examination of stupidity, that russia is expected to believe, -- it becomes hard to admit then that you were the fools. that this was complete nonsense. it was not just nonsense but that it was toxic, dangerous nonsense that was killing your own children. how can you imagine what it is like to be a decent person in russia? we have to remember that the vast majority of people in russia are decent human beings, just like us. to have your son or daughter out there in ukraine. and this is where -- here hunting nazis and then it dons on you some time that this is all a lie. what if your son or daughter dies for that lie? it is very, very hard, psychologically, i think, to get yourself to a point where you admit that that is what happened. so, eight may take whole generation in russia, i think, for that truth to don, sadly. >> professor -- >> can i -- >> please, go ahead. >> i think that is a really important point. when you look at it, instance after instance, we have seen tremendous atrocities. they were simply denied. the people just said, we never did it. the japanese did that in then king nanking, the turks did in armenia. the united states did at the end of the civil war. the american south denying with the war was fought about. what you find is that those kinds of calcified lies only serve to facilitate later acts of tremendous aggression and humanity. the soviets did. 20,000 polls poles. what we are seeing now is not unique but it is tremendously dangerous. >> and fintan o'toole, in your latest piece for the irish times, you looked at this threat to democracy, which this war is. vladimir putin trying to crush his neighboring democracy and you made the point that this is a phenomenon we are seeing around the world. that this challenge, this challenge to democracy is not just there. and you have isolated a cause that is new to me and very compelling, when you say that the molten core of this crisis of democracy is that capitalism itself has gone federal. capitalism has evolved to be at least as compatible with oligarchy and autocracy as it is with democracy. and that takes me back to the days when the walls were cracking. and when there was so much optimism in the united states in the foreign policy community, especially. because finally, levi's and coca-cola were making their way into the soviet union. and they felt, well, the clock is ticking on the regime. once the soviet citizenry, and also in china, once they get a taste of these amazing fruits of american capitalism, they are going to want that life for themselves. and therefore, presto, democracy. it turns out, we have discovered something else. >> very sadly, we have. and this is really very profound, i think. because for hundreds of years really, a lot of the political theory and the philosophy of what does it mean to be modern was basically saying, look, if you are going to have capitalism, you have to have the rule of law. that means you have to have an independent judiciary. but also you have to have some kind of democracy because people have to consent to the law. and then also you have to kind of have a free flow of information in truth. because, actually, capitalism means innovation, science, it means people debating things and coming up with new ideas. and what we have found, really, is that collapse of that idea. and i completely admit that i bought into it too. i completely believed, 15 years ago that there was a. about russia was about, a stability, about what china was about. and now they have become more autocratic. more authoritarian and more repressive and brutal. and they are still functioning as kind of quasi-capitalist societies. and so we have to ask ourselves what has gone wrong with how capitalism works. and i think it goes back to a basic thing. a lot of people are happy to make an awful lot of money. and have no responsibility towards society. if you just take the very simple thing of, why where the russian oligarchs able to hide their money and create this vast offshore russia in the west? they were exploiting system that we created to allow our superrich people to hide their money and move it around. and put it through shell companies where no one could really tell with the beneficial ownership of these places was. so, we ourselves, we have our sense of a collection of responsibility, or capitalism rooted in the common good. that has contributed hugely to the creation of these monsters that now really threaten democracy itself. >> and professor cobb, there is no better public manifestation of this contorted version of capitalism, in russia, and the version that exists in china, than these massive, mega yachts, who are going kind of handcuffed in harbors around the world's. the russian billionaire yachts that are being seized. and now homes in the south of france -- i mean, when it seems you look at this, the one place that russian billionaires never want to be as russia, given that they have all the residences and all that. but that is the public manifestation of this weird version of capitalism for some in russia. >> i think we are not letting capitalism off the hook. and i think if you look at third world nations, in comparison to the so-called first world nations, we are have all the resources for all those capitals production come from? you look at the u.s. relationship with haiti. you would not think that russian capitalism is so a typical. in fact, russian capitalism just looks like the most brutal and non cosmetic division of capitalism we saw in the 19th century. they have not decided to give it a facelift and make it appear to be more egalitarian than it is. so i think it's a very clear that what we are seeing in russia's -- should not really be surprising to us. >> professor jelani cobb and fintan o'toole, thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, we will have more on the situation in ukraine later in the hour, and a live report from ukraine. and next, ian mackey will join us after we show you the breathtaking speech he delivered in the missouri house of representatives this week. it is one of the most powerful and moving statements i have ever heard in the legislative chamber anywhere. it will be my honor to introduce you to representative ian mackey next. ian mackey next. you need? 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>> he was expressing that to the family, and he thought that we would hold that against him and not let my children be around him. >> why do you think he thought that? >> i do not know. it never would have happened, i will tell you that. my kids at their point in their life or with my brother. >> can i tell you, if i were your brother, i would have been afraid to tell you to. i would have been afraid to tell you too because of stuff like this, because this is what you are focused on. this is the legislation you want to put forward! this is what consumed your time! i would've been afraid to tell you to! i was afraid of people like you growing up! i grew up in hickory county, missouri. i grew up in a school district out both marta put this into place. and for 18 years, i walked around with nice people like you who took me to ball games, who told me how smart i was! they want to the ballot and voted for crap like this! i could not wait to get out. i could not wait to move to a part of our state that would reject this stuff in a minute. i could not wait, and think that i made it. think that i made it out, and i think every day of the kids that are still there, who have not made it out, who have not escaped from this kind of bigotry! gentlemen, i'm not afraid of you anymore because you are going to lose. you may win this today, but you're gonna lose. >> joining us now is missouri state representative ian mackey, thank you very much for joining us. i just saw this video a few hours ago, and we went into overdrive to get you with us tonight. tell us about the moments leading up to that speech and what's brought you to that point to decide to deliver those remarks? i think we have a problem with the inspection, go ahead ian. can you hear me? >> sure, yes, this is an issue that we do we would end up debating at some point to share. this is an issue that has been brought up around legislators around the country. leading up to this, we saw that representative basye as filed this amendment on a relatively unrelated bill pertaining to elections interstate. i asked the floor leader if you would not mind walking over to representative basye and ask him to stand down on this. this was an issue that was not related to elections. this was a time we did not want to have this fight. we are working cohesively in a bipartisan way as a body that afternoon. the florida run over and talked to representative basye, trying to ask him to step down. it was like you've got the putting that -- the speaker wanted him to go ahead however. i have had private conversations with representative basye before the speech. before i made it clear that if we were going to do this out in the open, if we would do this in public, if this was something that we were going to debate on the floor, that it was going to get deeply personal, and that it was going to be a serious moment. you know, this is something that i thought we should keep off the table. this is an issue that pushes the wall. representative basye and i work on so many issues together in a bipartisan way that is productive for our state. this issue just poisons the well. i tried several times to avoid this discussion and avoid this debate, but at the end of the day, that was not my call. what happened happened. >> you moved from hickory county, missouri to st. louis. you could not have possibly been elected in hickory county according to what we heard about it today. you talked about in your speech that you think every day about the kid still there in hickory county, the kids that have not made it out, who have not escaped from this kind of bigotry. what do you want those kids to know about what their future can be? >> i do think about them every day, every single day, i think about them. whether they are in hickory county or dallas county or some other rural parts of our state or country, i want them to know that there will come a time, they're welcome a time where they found people that accept them, they will find people who love them. i have immediate family members who were supportive and loved me, and who welcomed me and took me as i was. like i said, to representative basye, i had folks who are outwardly cotton supportive, but when asked to decide to court a public policy, decided to treat me like a second-class citizen. just know, there are so many places where that is not the case. please, before you do anything else wait and reach out for help. there are so many resources. there are so many people that want to help. there are so many people they want to be there for you. just know that there are people in public office, people i work with in the state of missouri, people all across the country who are doing everything they can every day to make sure that your rights are just as equal as representative basye or anyone else's. >>, what were you feeling in those two minutes and 23 seconds that we just saw. where you are summing up your entire life experience for that moment? >> you know, it is something i have talked thought about saying for a long time. it is something i told several people privately. it is something i talked to friends of mine. friends and acquaintances who grew up in similar situations and circumstances. i served with people who have been through this. and i asked these kids and their families to come to the capital, over and over. i begged them to come and share their stories. and i tell them that i know it is hard. and until that moment i did not realize until how hard it really is. because that was my time to tell my story. and i realized that i finally took a bit of my own advice. i realized the impact it had. and i hope it inspires so many more people -- kids and parents out there -- to do the same. >> missouri state representative, the honorable ian mackey, thank you very much for joining us tonight and thank you very much for delivering those important words to the missouri house. >> thank, you lawrence. >> thank you. >> and coming up, 100 new text messages from mark meadows are in possession of the january 6th committee and they show that even mark meadows did not believe the crazy stuff that rudy giuliani was saying about the election on television. that is next. that is next if you've been living with heart disease, reducing cholesterol can be hard, even when you're taking a statin and being active. but you can do hard. you lived through the blizzard of '96... 12 unappreciative bosses... 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>> well, hey lawrence. my first thing is, mark meadows, man, he got a lot of texas this year from a lot of loopy people, over the course of the election, through january 20th. i mean, ginni thomas, others coming in and the other. i agree with you that there has got to be -- when grading republicans in this period, one unfortunately has to use a sliding scale. both of these two gentlemen we're talking about -- chip roy and mike lee -- they end up in the right place, i believe we should give them credit for that. they ultimately end up seeing the version of january 6th, that the crazy had taken over. they ended up voting that way. i still think, though, it's a bit rich for them to be claiming that they were 100% free of blame here, given that you have got mike lee, who claims to be a constitutional scholar, he was pushing sydney powell after the election. it was not that city paul turned out to be crazy after the press conference. she had been pretty crazy for a good period of time after that. and yet both these guys were urging sydney powell. and then when they get sick of sydney powell, they turn to john eastman, who turns out to have been as problematic, in certain ways, as sydney powell. i think what we see here is that we saw a lot of republicans and even some of those who went up ended up in the right place, where donald trump may be, if the whole party had said to him on november 8th, ninth, or tenth, he lost, there is nowhere to go with his -- maybe then he would've had a different outcome. it seemed like a lot of people, who ended up in the right place, they were in those crucial early days after the election, telling trump that maybe there was widespread fraud and that he should mount legal challenges even though there was no real evidence out there. >> one thing that neither one of them say in their texts is that there are no rules in war. that is what clarence thomas's wife said to mark meadows. she was clearly advocating criminal, anything, whatever you want to do, break any law. >> yes. >> these guys were never advocating breaking any laws. >> correct. an important distinction for sure. i don't want to put them totally in the same bucket with ginni thomas, who is also espousing all kinds of crazy qanon conspiracy theories. these guys are not talking about detention in guantánamo bay for joe biden or members of the media. so, no they are not in the same category as you know thomas and they're more responsible than her, again, and we should give them credit for ending up in the right place on this. but i do think that there was a psychosis that took over across the republican party in those immediate days after the election was called. in the immediate days after the election when, rather than kind of urging probity and calm on donald trump's part, there was a lot of friends are going on across the eligible acho spectrum. and that gave trump -- he did not have trump do what he was going to do on some level. but i think they were pushing down a path that turned out to be one that, being trump, he could never put the brakes on it once he started down it. >> john, one of the fun things that has happened in washington since the meadows material was handed over to the committee, is that everyone who texted mark meadows knows who they are. and they all know that they are still secret, those who did in secret, but they all know also that every one of the tax is eventually going to be out there. >> yes. and there are a lot of nervous people in washington tonight, lawrence. [laughs] they are waiting for the moment when it is going to drop. a lot of republicans are not looking forward to this day. but i want to ask you this question, i was thinking about it earlier today. you put this story with meadows, there's an increasing sense that meadows was the repository of -- i mean, i don't know white house sheaf of staff that give their phone number out. >> yeah. >> and they text this wide array of people. i think if you put this together with the meadows voter fraud thing we have seen in recent days, do you not think that it is getting pretty clear that mark meadows has suppressed hr haldeman as the worst white house chief of staff of our life? >> it is a four way tie, with white house chiefs of staff and trump has made it an extremely difficult call. we are going to have to deliberate on that another night. john heilemann, thank you very much for joining us tonight, we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> and coming up we will get a live report from ukraine and a report on the russian state media as a reaction to the sinking of that russian warship, that is next. that is next where do you find the perfect project manager? well, we found him in adelaide between his daily lunch delivery and an 8:15 meeting with his client in san francisco. ...but you can find him, and millions of other talented pros, right now on upwork. who's on it with jardiance? we're 25 million prescriptions strong. we're managing type 2 diabetes... ...and heart risk. we're working up a sweat before coffee. and saying, “no thanks...” ...to a boston cream. jardiance is a once-daily pill that can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so, it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. and jardiance lowers a1c. jardiance can cause serious side effects including... ...dehydration, genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. a rare, but life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away... ...if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, ...ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, ...and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. lower a1c and lower risk of a fatal heart attack? we're on it. we're on it. with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. - i'm norm. - i'm szasz. 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. russia has sent a formal diplomatic note warning the united states to stop supplying ukraine with weapons or risk, quote, unpredictable consequences. a senior administration official told the washington post, with the russians are telling us privately is precisely what we have been telling the world publicly. that the massive amount of assistance that we have been providing our ukrainian partners is proving extraordinarily effective. a senior pentagon official has confirmed that the russian warship was sunk by ukrainian missiles this week. russian defense officials initially said a fire broke out on the ship, causing munitions to explode. and then russia said the ship sank in stormy seas, while going back to shore, but there was no storm. and now russian state television is saying there really was a ukrainian attack on that ship. >> [speaking foreign language] [speaking foreign language] >> [speaking foreign language] [speaking foreign language] >> [speaking foreign language] >> [speaking foreign language] >> [speaking foreign language] >> we will have more on what is being said on russian television which russian media analyst julie davis in a moment. joining us now is nbc news correspondent allie every easy in lviv. what is the situation there tonight? >> good evening, lawrence, you can probably hear the loudspeaker, the air raid siren has been going off behind us now and that has been happening a lot more regularly after the embarrassment that russia suffered after their flagship moskva was sunk. the biggest warship to have been sunk since the second world war. and the ukrainians said that they were expecting retribution from the russians and that revenge came in the early hours of the morning on the outskirts of kyiv, when they hit a missile factory. and lawrence, it was not just any missile factory. it was a missile factory that produced the neptune anti ship missile that sunk the moskva, a symbol of russian military might. now that asset is thinking at the bottom of the black sea. and the russians are saying that they are still going to target kyiv and strategic locations in kyiv. and this morning they hit kharkiv, they hit a residential area in kharkiv, killing seven people. amongst the dead a seven month old child. and also 900 dead bodies have been found in bucha, and the entire area has been called a crime scene. >> ali ali arouzi thank you very much for your reporting, and please stay safe. joining us now is julia davis, columnist for the daily beast and creator of russian media monitor. julia, thanks to the -- you just gave us, one of the amazing moments from that is that one of the speaker says, what are we waging right now? the host has to say, russian spell it terry a special military operation. the guest wants to call it warrants as it is worthy of war. is that a typical example of what is being seen there? and apparently that show is telling russians that, yes, ukrainians sank a russian ship. >> yes, exactly. and they are all getting tired of having to repeat that tired line about a special military operation. they know very well that this is nothing less than a war. and then on other state tv, with generals, there was not a single person that thought for even one second that the defense ministries lame story about a fire and a towing and a storm. from the get-go they all addressed it as the ukrainians sinking their warship. and there is something very poetic about sinking moscow and it certainly did not go over well with them. >> but that is surprising. we are of the impression that these people on tv are not allowed to speculate and -- that they are not allowed to say anything that is not the government line. and the government line was, no, there was a fire of a strange origin on the ship. >> it's kind of hard for them to argue that when their own defense ministry obviously knows what happens, which is why they bombed the missile factory, which on state tv was explicitly described as retaliation against the ukrainians. so, i think that even at the kremlin they realize that this was a ludicrous cover story. and in addition, they are trying to build up the mood for the public to understand their retaliatory -- or so-called retaliatory -- measures they are getting ready to undertake. and are preparing them for increasing brutality. >> julie davis, thank you for joining us tonight and thank you for monitoring russian tv for us. we really appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you lawrence. >> and we will be right back. e right back migraine attacks? 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