first term of the 46th president of the united states, joseph, are biden. and one year since this moment. the year of the one term of the twice impeached, disgraced, ex president, donald trump. >> but we really did. we've gotten so much don that nobody thought would be possible and i do want to thank congress. i want to thank all the great people of washington d.c.. all of the people that we worked with to put this miracles together. so, have a good life. we will see you soon, thank you. thank you very much. thank you very much. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> have a good life, i'll tell you, we are trying. it's not easy but we're trying. of course president joe biden came into office to more than just reddest of donald trump. his inauguration speech included some pretty big ticket items. >> we can write wrongs put people to work in good jobs. teach our children in safe schools. can overcome a deadly virus. it striking to me as somebody who has been covering politics since 2007. since right before president barack obama took office this is the second successive democratic president inheriting a country in the midst of a dire, acute crisis president obama took office amid a once in a century global financial crisis the lingering effects of which we still feel to this very day. and of course president biden has inherited a once in a century pandemic, which was the last more than 800,000 americans dead. nearly 70 million more. nothing of the economic catastrophe that comes with those disruptions and both men obama and joe biden had to walk a fine line with their messaging. tell that things are improving but concede that there is still a long way to go. that was the biggest hurdle for barack obama of the great financial crisis and we saw again yesterday during joe biden's remarks. we >> went from 2 million people being vaccinated when i was sworn in, to 210 million americans. being fully vaccinated today. we created 6 million new jobs, more jobs in one year than any other time before. unemployment dropped. the unemployment rate dropped to 3.9%. child poverty dropped by nearly 40%. the biggest drop ever in american history. still, for all of this progress, i know there's a lot of frustration. >> so, as we approach the two year university of the pandemic. millions, of most americans, not to mention a coup attempt, and a growing anti-democratic authoritarian formation. politics. if you take a step back, you recognize, there's been a lot done by the biden administration. really tangible accomplishments. particularly on economic and vaccinations. here's one stat that i keep coming back to that one people don't realize. joe biden saw the biggest increase and we'll share among the bottom 50% of households ever. and that is largely thanks to the unprecedented federal stimulus in response to the virus. this is a stat that as reclines new york time quoted. since march 2020, americans saved at least two trillion dollars more than expected. and that is just not a function of the rich getting richer. a jpmorgan chase analysis found that the median households checking account balance was 50% higher in july 2021 then in the months before the pandemic. of course the stakes right now are very high for american democracy among other things. a future of economic recovery. recovery of this pandemic. the future of the climate catastrophe and our free and fair elections. all of these things hinge on what happens in this next year as we approach the midterms. whether this anti-democratic, increasingly authoritarian faction returns to power. i can think of no better person to talk about that with short of the president and vice president themselves, then the white house chief of staff. joining me now is the white house chief of staff ron klain. , it is great to have you on ron. i want to start with a statistic that to me embodies the conundrum of the economy. that i think is at the core of the mission for this year, for the biden administration. you ask people how the national economy is doing, is it doing well? their comfort with it on zero to 100. 29%, bad marks. you ask them about their personal finances, they say 61%. so there is this gap between how people are experiencing the economy and their pocketbooks, in terms of the labor markets, and the perception of the economy. how do you understand that? and what can you do about it? >> first of all, thank you for having me chris. great to be here as always. look, i think the numbers that you cite are telling of where we are. which is that our economic plan has done an excellent job of raising incomes. of getting people employment. when we got here, there were 20 million people on unemployment. that is down to 1. 7 million now. people are back at work. as you said, they're saving accounts are up. their value of their homes are up. they feel well off personally. we have to be realistic, they are living in an economy where there are still -- people are really back at work full-time. there is all kinds of dislocations. although these disruptions caused by the pandemic. the anxiety of the pandemic hangs over people said. that is with the president said yesterday in his press conference. i think that is a realistic appraisal of where we are. part of the job, part of the job here, is really addressing that pandemic. we've made a lot of progress on that. 210 million people fully vaccinated. 210 million americans, who were at risk of death from covid a year ago, who now have that security. but we know, there's a lot more work to be done on the pandemic. way too many cases, hospitalizations. we need to get those things under control. i think that is what it is going to take to have people feel like the national economy as a whole is doing as well as they are in their own personal lives. >> in the last week, the last two weeks, these two initiatives, the using the postal service to mail every household. i have to say, the white house is very efficient, very clean, very easy to use. a plan to distribute masks. both of which are coming online. you guys probably should have done that six weeks ago, right? >> well chris, we had to ramp up both. i think on the testing side, it is worth remembering, that when we got here, there were zero at home tests. none, didn't exist in the united states of america. and so over the course of the first 11 months that we were here. we've built that up from zero, to 350 million at home tests in december. now we are taking it to the next step. we are continuing to ramp up production, so that we can have this easy website. where you can go get free tests. we've also change the rules, so if you want to buy tests from a store, or a commercial website, your insurance company will reimburse you for those tests. we are continuing to expand testing. we have made progress every month. we continue to make progress. on the masking, again, i think that the new cdc recommendation tilts toward more use. of the specialized masks. the kn95, the n95s. i think that makes it incumbent on us to make those more easily available, more widely available. our responses taken steps with the pandemic. we continue to make progress, we are going to continue to make progress. >> i think that part of the sense of frustration, some despair, sometimes in the country. i think a lot of it is the accrued trauma of the pandemic. two years of pandemic. the biggest disruption to american daily life, since world war ii, maybe even before that. i think it is easy to look past that. and every time you think, okay, this is it, we are there. it's like, oh my god, now there's omicron, now there is this, i'm back to like, my kids are getting sent home from school. what is the message to americans about? what is your understanding, what is the white house's vision of what this year looks like in that respect? >> well chris, i think that it is important to step back and see how this wave is different from previous waves. to answer your question. yes, omicron has created the most cases that we have ever had in america. but in fact, because so many americans are fully vaccinated, eliminate boosted, because we know how vaccinations could reach all the way down to age five. even in this horrible wave of the pandemic, most schools are still open. when we got here, less than half of the schools in america were still open. with even less covid. so now we have done, we've made big investment in making school safer. moving ventilation. schools are open. most businesses are open. and so we are finding a way to help protect the country. make it resilient in the face of the pandemic. i cannot predict with the next wave will be. when it will come, if it will come. but when i can tell you, is that we are ramping up every tool that we need to combat the pandemic. we have more antivirals than we had before. we have this new pill coming along. we have the first deliveries of. we have plenty more of, in february, march. more on america than any other country. we have ordered them very aggressively. that means, even if you are not vaccinated and you get covid, you are going to be able to take this pill and not have severe health consequences. so we are bringing new tools to the fight, every day. we are increasing testing, increasing masking, increasing treatments, all of these things. expanding vaccinations and i think that is going to make this country more and more able to deal with whatever covid throws at. >> let's talk about the president's domestic agenda. the build back better bill. particularly, which we don't know it's status. joe manchin today saying basically, there hadn't been talks. going to have to start from zero. the president yesterday talking about carving it and ended chunks. what is the message? we should we understand about what the goal is here, legislatively, for the presidents domestic policy priorities, given manchin and sinema and what can be salvaged from this legislation? >> well chris, i am cautiously optimistic. i think senator manchin has made it clear publicly that he is interested. in putting together the key pieces of build back better. he has spoken favorably about the climate elements of build back better. he has spoken favorably about the many childcare and senior care and preschool elements of build back better. he spoke in favor of a lot of the health care of elements of build back better. look, it just makes sense. we have this problem now with inflation. and so what could be more responsible to that. then saying, we are going to limit what people have to pay for their childcare. we are going to help people pay for elder care for their seniors. we are going to bring down the cost of prescription drugs dramatically. we are going to lower peoples health insurance premiums. this is just a common sense approach to deal with these problems. and we are going to tackle the problem of climate change, by building a clean energy economy. going to bring down what people pay for energy. heating their homes, going into their homes, all of these things. and of course, get us ready for a clean energy future. so i think that this is a very strong agenda. very broad support among democrats. as you know, a version of this bill passed the house with every single democrat. left, right, center. except one. all of them voting for. i think we will find a solution to get some version of this bill through the senate. >> one last and really important question. and it has to deal with afghanistan, the question about withdrawal yesterday. the u.s. has sanctions against the taliban. has not recognize the taliban government. both of which i understand why those are in place. we've also put a freeze on about nine billion dollars in the afghan government's assets. which are actually held he'll. which means that they can't access it. human rights activists recognize that 20 million afghans are facing famine. a country that is one of the poorest in the world. what possible justification is the for the u.s. government to keep freezing those assets, to blockade, and the recognition of the taliban, if the result of it as tens of millions of people facing starvation. >> well i would say chris, the rationale is the horrible acts of the taliban regime. and that is why these assets are frozen. i do think though, we have to be part of finding a humanitarian solution to avoid a humanitarian crisis in afghanistan. that is something that we are working on here, every day. >> okay, thank you, ron klain i really appreciate your time, thank you very much. >> we have a new name to add to the january six committee's potential witness list. a banker trump, have seen a fair share of letters and subpoenas from the committee and i have to say they are not all created equal sunlight on information that we already know, public reporting. read them and i follow this closely it's nothing new, then there are the ones that we have tonight. things that we largely been in the dark about, namely what was donald trump doing during the attack, new details from that letter including a potential conversation from trump and vice president pence on the morning of the sixth, next. ce president pence on th morning of the sixth, next we know as he was sitting there in the dining room next to the oval office. members of his staff are pleading with him to go on television,, tell people to stop. we know leader mccarthy was pleading with him to do that, we know members of his family. we know is daughter, we have firsthand testimony that his daughter ivanka, went in at least twice to ask him to please stop this violence. >> a few weeks ago in the vice chair of the january 6th elect committee, republican congressman liz cheney, name checked ivanka trump on national television, you had to have an inkling before the first daughter of the disgraced ex president would receive a rocket from the committee like she got today. 11 pages long, filled with some really awkward new details, and a request to voluntarily cooperate with the investigation, the committee begins by asking what of on could trump knows about donald trump's efforts to undermine the electoral vote count on january 6th, specifically, the select committee wishes to discuss the part of the conversation you observed between president trump and vice that president mike pence. on the morning of january six, the select committee would like to discuss any adversary conversations who might have participated in regarding the plan to or impede the counting of electoral votes for example, if you have suggesting the white house counsel might have the actions mike pence to take, would violate the constitution or be otherwise the illegal. that's a lot right there a. the conversation that took place apparently that she witnessed. the committee wants to know about that conversation between trump and pence. that ivanka witnessed herself. on the morning of the insurrection. like they did know about that. also saying that they have information that trump's own white house counsel thought with trump's time pence to do was illegal. next, the committee asked about donald trump's actions during the insurrection itself. those hours, infamous, in one lengthy section of the committee focuses on a tweet. trump says a to 2:24 pm, minutes after the rioters had first broken windows and entered the capital. while congress and the vice president were still inside. and that is when trump seemed to sick the bob on pants. even at the time it was appalling and shocking in realtime. he wrote, quote, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should've been done to protect. the committee says quote, we are critically interested in discussions inside the white house and with the president before and after his 2:24 tweet. testimony obtained by the select committee and indicates that members of the white house staff requested your systems on multiple occasions to intervene in an attempt to persuade president trump to address the ongoing lawlessness and violence on capitol hill. according to the committee, a lot of people thought ivanka trump might have been the only one that trump would listen to. quoting again, the president was, according to one account, stubborn. and staff recognize that you may be the only person who could persuade him to act. ivanka trump wasn't the only person trying to convince trump to do something that you don't want to do. and today's letter, we also got new insight into the efforts of the 9 pm host on fox news. to try to change trump's tone of the after the insurrection. we all know that on hannity had been part of the trump inner circle. almost like a staffer to the president. had been texting with trump's chief of staff. tonight we learned that he was also in communication with trump's chief spokesperson, kayleigh mcenany. on january 7th, mr. hannity texted miss mckinney, laying out a five-point approach for conversations with president trump. i was wanted to have that plan readers follows, no more stolen election top. yes, impeachment 25th amendment are real, and many people will quit. and, miss mckinney replied, love that, thank you, that is the playbook i will help reinforce. i mean wow. that is fox news host sean hannity. game planning a post insurrection approach. which current fox news commentator kayleigh mcenany happily accepts. to talk about this letter, i am happy to be joined by -- author of the excellent new book, unthinkable, trauma, truth and the trials of american democracy. i spoke to him on the podcast. you get wherever you get your podcasts. congressman raskin, there is a lot here. i guess the first question is, this is a solicitation of cooperation. how do you understand, how should we understand this letter to ivanka trump? >> well, we are closing in on the target chris. it is been a very good week for us with the supreme court decision. rejecting trump's efforts to block, release, a whole bunch of documents. lots of people coming forward to testify. and we are really developing a fine grain portrait of what happened on that day. ivanka trump is a critical figure because she was there in the morning. we believe that she was there when trump was still trying to twist mike pence's arm. remember that you will go down in history as a patriot or a pushy. his words there. she was also a key figure in trying to pull trump back apparently. she could really perhaps complete the portrait of what happened on january 6th of course. >> and i didn't know about this conversation she saw with pence. there's another item in that letter i want to ask you about. it talks about testimony from general keith kellogg. i'm gonna read it. this is something that is not public. this is in a letter. going to ask for some context here. says in the letter, it is sworn testimony, general keith kellogg explain why his staff wanted the president to take action to quell the unrest. did you think that she, of oscar trump, couldn't get help him to place a -- heat and say yes to mark meadows or kayleigh mcenany or keith kellogg, but he might say yes to his daughter. answer, exactly right. tell us about what you have learned about this effort. this apparent desperate effort. to get him to stop this. >> the impression that we have as of successive treaties directly to former president trump. to essentially call off the dogs. and to tell everybody to go home. obviously, it was a matter of walking 20 paces over to the cameras. and making a speech. and there were repeated efforts to get him to intercede. and i think that ivanka trump figures highly now in this. because people thought that he might listen to her. but, what we are getting, is a very clear sense, that the people in the media entourage of donald trump, knew was a terrible thing this violence was. that it was illegal. that it was unlawful. that it was unconstitutional. we believe that the white house counsel was rendering advice to that effect. and yet, trump continue to try to march everybody off of the plank. >> it also seems, and again, this is from the letter here, these video outtakes, and there's been some reporting about multiple outtakes necessary to get trump to say leave. even though he says i love you. and you will never forget this day. it's a very bizarre performance. but the select committee understands that multiple takes of the video were filmed but not utilized. information in the select committee's possession suggests that the president failed in the initial clips to ask rioters to leave the capitol. i mean, more and more detail. that he was utterly resistant to doing the one thing, it seems, that everybody agreed, was necessary to stop the violence. >> well, you know, it had been setting this political coup in motion. directed at vice president pence. he had helped to activate, we believe, these domestic violence extremists groups. obviously we have seditious conspiracy charges now against one of them. the stewart rhodes oath keepers group. but also he had been activating this huge demonstration of tens of thousands of people, to become a mob. by essentially sinking them on mike pence. and we have statements from a lot of people who were in the demonstration. saying that they were waiting to hear what mike pence would do. and when they got the message that he was not going to cooperate and bow down to the president. at that point, all bets were off. and they decided to tear up the place. >> the mention there of the tweet about mike pence, as i said, in the intro to the segment, at the time it was appalling. seemed very clearly to be painting a target on the man's back. your letter suggests that perhaps ivanka has some knowledge of the what went into that. or what the reaction was to it. is that right? >> yeah. there are different ways of interpreting this. all the early there were people participating in this political effort up until the point when everything got really deranged and insane. but, it also suggestive of the possibility that there were people who felt like they had to try to contain and control donald trump. and psychologically, he was just out of control. and they were looking at ways to try to rein him back in. >> we should note that the ivanka press person put out a statement that is essentially nonresponsive and said that she didn't speak at the rally. as she publicly stated that the violence would stop immediately, please be pace full. that seems nonresponsive. but i suspect we will get a more responsive a quest. from ivanka trump at some point. congressman jamie raskin, the subject of the new nbc documentary, love in the constitution, premiering next month. thank you so much congressman. >> pleasure is all mine, thank you. coming up, remember the investigation into trump's call the georgia's top election official, when he demanded they get the more votes. the da is asking for a grand jury, and that is a really big deal. i'll explain why, next. jury, and that is a really big i just want to find 11,700 and 1880 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. , because we won the state. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because every great play starts the night before. my sleep number 360 smart bed tracks my circadian rhythm, average heart rate, and breathing rate so i know how well i'm sleeping. it's also temperature balancing so i stay cool. and it senses my movement and automatically adjusts to help keep me comfortable all night. sleep number takes care of the science so i can focus on other things. >> we have the phone call, the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. only from sleep number. there is no disagreement on the facts. on january 2nd, 2021, then president donald trump, pick up the phone, called georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger. and urged him to find the votes to reverse joe biden's win in that state. the next month, the district attorney in fulton county, chief prosecutor, launched an investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the election. and today, that investigation took a significant step forward. with the district attorney now requesting a special grand jury for the probe. she sent this letter to the chief judge of fulton county superior court. say she needs the grand jury to quote, a significant number of witnesses and prospective witnesses have refused to cooperate with the investigation, absentee subpoena requiring their testimony. brad raffensperger has essentially said that he would only cooperate with the subpoena. da cited these comments he made in october of last year. >> if she wants to interview me, there is a process for that and i will gladly participate in that. because i want to make sure that i follow the law, follow the constitution and when you get a grand jury summons, you respond to. grand jury requests must be approved by this majority of the superior court judges in fulton county. we will have to wait for their decision. we do know, thanks to my colleague rachel maddow's reporting, that the ex presidents lawyers had already met in person with prosecutors from the da's office. the da recently told the associated press, whether the decision to bring charges against president trump, would come as the first half as this year. i have to say, i really think that this should be the thing that should take down donald trump. not that you can take him down. but, we have then-president on tape, soliciting election fraud. this is not a case of somebody down the chain of command, preparing some documents for him. with plausible deniability. and no other single piece of notice that we have learned. has surpassed the raw criminality of trump telling the secretary of state to just find him the votes he needs to win. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes. which is one more than we have, because we won the state. so what are we going to do here folks. i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes, give me a break. >> this is not a situation where there is an alibi. or a lack of reliable witness. he is on tape. the call is not disputed. the facts here are crystal clear. it is just a question of with the losses. and there is no reason for donald trump not to be indicted. it is a crime to pressure officials, to interfere and change the results of the election. the fulton county district attorney is looking at multiple violations of georgia law here. including criminal solicitation to commit election fraud. intentional interference of performing election duties. conspiracy and racketeering among others. it is not a slam dunk case, we should be clear. because prosecutors would need to clear, to move forward with these charges, that trump knew he was doing was unlawful. that he had criminal intent. what was his state of mind? what was his intent of making the call? was he doing it corruptly, or in good faith. and that can be hard to prove, for sure. my feeling is, let the jury decide. because, i'll tell you, will we are going to talk next, just how open and shut this cases, when we come back. open and shut this cases when we come back. >> the reason we know about donald trump's call to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, is because of how desperate he was to overturn the election. january 2nd, 2021, trump called raffensperger to try to get him to produce votes out of nowhere. the whole reason that we know about the call and have audio from it, is because the next day, january 3rd, trump sent out this tweet. saying that i spoke to the secretary of state brad raffensperger yesterday about fulton county and voter fraud in georgia. he was unwilling, or unable, to answer questions such as the ballots under table scam. ballot destruction, out of state voters, dead voters and more. he has no clue. now all of the things that he listed there are plainly untrue. if you are as later, that same day, washington post published the audio of the call that had been recorded by raffensperger's team. the call went on for an hour. not only can you hear trump illegally ask for more votes than he actually got. you can hear him pleading, bargaining at times, threatening, and becoming increasingly frustrated when he does not get his way. >> so there were many infractions and the bottom line is, many, many times, the 11,900 and -- margin that they said we lost by. but the ballots are corrupt. and you are going to find that there. which is totally illegal. it is more illegal for you than it is for them. because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. that's a criminal offense. you can't let that happen. that's a big risk to you and to ryan, your lawyer. that's a big risk. in fulton, where they dump ballots, you will find that you have many that aren't even signed. and you have many that are forgeries. okay, you know that. you know that. you have no doubt about that. and you will find you will be a 11,779 within minutes. because fulton county is totally corrupt. so look. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,007 higher and 80 votes. which is one more than we have. because we won the state. so are we going to do here, folks? only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> that is what should, and likely will be played for the special grand jury in fulton county georgia. joining me now are -- senior reporter for the atlanta tour journal. but the fulton county da's request. for a grand jury. rebecca roiphe, law professor of new york law school. former manhattan district attorney. let me start with you. maybe you can tell us the significance of this. what it means, what happens next? >> the da willis is asking for a special grand jury. a little different than your typical grand jury that we have in fulton county. your normal grand jury lasts for about two months. and this jury is considering hundreds of different cases. any kind of felony that would happen in the city. anything from murders, to robberies, to thefts, that sort of thing. they are constantly jumping to those kinds of things. with da willis is asking for this. time is a dedicated grand jury. 16 to 23 individuals, who would only be focused on this specific case. not only that, they won't be rotated off after two months. they can stick around for as long as the da needs them to be there. which a lot of legal observers say it would be a good thing, for such a lengthy and complicated case. that this is expected to be. >> one more follow-up and i'll go to rebecca. is the expectation that the majority of supreme court judges are going to grant this? is that performer, or is that up in the air? >> my understanding is that when these are requested, a very rare thing in general, they generally are granted. yes we are expecting that. >> rebecca, what is your interpretation of this. there is a weird thing happening here. again, the facts aren't in dispute. i think the law was pretty clear. to the extent there is a criminal case, it does come down to a tent. i know intent can be hard to prove. it seems to be worth trying, what do you think? >> so, it is absolutely true that intent can be hard to prove. even when you have all of the facts written down on a piece of paper. recorded as they are here. you can see that. you showed that tweet. which is trump out in the open. in fact that is good for his legal. case when he's essentially saying, look, i have nothing to hide. yes, this call happened, but i've nothing to hide. because he actually is going to make the defense that he believed that the election was stolen from him. so when he was talking to the secretary of state, he was urging him to do what he was required to do under law. and that is consistent. though implausible as you say, it is certainly consistent with the documents that we have. and the way that he has conducted himself. so intent is going to be a very different element to prove. leave it to the grand jury on this particular. and this gregory will issue a report, to a judge, and we will see where it goes. >> walker through that step, there's many ways to interpret this. what is your interpretation of this request? for a grand jury and what that means? >> so, grandeur's are different in every state. which makes it complicated. and in georgia the special grand jury serves a different purpose than the special grand jury does in new york. in georgia, a special grand jury cannot indict. it can call witnesses, can subpoena witnesses, can look at evidence. and then issues a report and recommendation. so that is likely different from in manhattan, where could issue an indictment itself. so, to me, this means that it has reached a state in which the prosecutor wants to hear evidence from live witnesses. and that she is having trouble doing that in an informal way. and had convene a grand jury to do so. in this particular way. but, that doesn't necessarily mean that she has reached a conclusion. or there are necessarily going to be charges again at the end of the road. right. and you are taught not in your head an agreement, how public has the district attorney been about this case, how much has it been something in the news there. >> she's been quite quiet since the year that she announced that she was launching this investigation, she got letters from attorney general, asking them to preserve any relevant documents for this case, but that's been about it, she's given a couple of interviews saying she is going to let her prosecutors do their work, she doesn't necessarily on a certain timeframe she told the ap about a week or so ago that she does believe to have some sort of action in the next six months. but she's been keeping very quiet, and say that she will let the tax -- >> the last question, rebecca, is just what your judgment is here. again, the sort of plausible deniability of intent is plausible. but yet the corrupt purposes so evident. and so, the fact that they recorded the protocol is they sort of understood that they were on the other end of something like deeply wrong that was happening. what do you think about that? >> if it weren't for the burden of proof, i'd say you're 100% right. but every element needs to be prove beyond a reasonable doubt, including intent. he went out and tweeted about this the second it happened, doesn't that show a lack of consciousness of guilt? isn't he at least consistent with the notion that perhaps he really has convinced himself that the entire election was stolen from him? i do think that poses a significant problem for prosecutors here. we'll have to see what the grand jury thinks. and in turn, what prosecutors do in response to the recommendation if that grand jury is in fact to meet. it's >> funny, trump issued a statement putting this false call -- led to his first impeachment, in both cases a kind of arguments that i was so self diluted, that i believed in the ridiculous things i was claiming, in pursuit of essentially a corrupt solicitation of that acts in both cases. but because i'm genuinely diluted -- thank you both, appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. >> up next david plouffe, and michelle goldberg on what voters will think of all these -- and biden's performance when you're in, will be right back. all these -- and biden's performance when you're in, will be right back. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. it has been one year of the biden administration, as we look ahead to the rest of his presidency, and beyond. there's one big challenge looming over all of it. one of the two major political parties in this country is under the sway of an authoritarian leader. and, voters don't seem inclined to penalize the members or the elected officials of that party for that. so, how do you campaign against a party when they are threatening democracy, with even do about it? i'm joined now by david plouffe, the formal -- for barack obama and michelle goldberg. and op-ed columnist for the new york times. it's great to have you both. i think, david, as we sort of state take stock of urine. that's one lesson, i think we've talked about this here is that voters are not going to penalize the republican party for the sort of anti-democratic thrust. the question is, cannot be changed and is it even worth changing? or should people be thinking about the sort of meat and potatoes messaging that steers clear of that kind of thing? >> this is an existential crisis, chris, so i don't think you can hide from it. there's no question that senate races and house races, -- republican opponents on health, care infrastructure, who gets tax cuts and who gets vortexes raised. but i think a lot of the people who get nominated are true believers in trump. i think in those races, you can hang this on them, they've you had over control to republicans, all they're gonna do is engage in retribution on donald trump's behalf. so i think that picture is really important because whether people say they want to save democracy or not. it'll help the republican turnout. both swing voters, i don't think they'll be able to focus on the problems, not fighter we are guard action on battle trump. we have to keep this front and center i think you're gonna have to try and find those pockets of voters. those swing voters and turnout targets where this is the thing that motivates them, and communicates to them. >> yeah, there was one data point that i found interesting in some sense encouraging michelle, it was a pr pull that is a brutal pull for biden. it's part of the worst pulley, had it had approval rating at 33%. this wasn't a poll that is over sampling democrats, or anything like that, but in the same, pull the same group of people. would you like to see trump run for president in 2024, yes 33%, no, 59% of americans. i thought, that's a pretty striking response there. and says something, maybe, that's hard to review under the service of his current control of the party, over how unpopular he is broadly. >> yeah, so part of the problem is that democrats at least in the few elections that we've seen so far, have not been successful when they've tried to link donald trump to republicans. at least those republicans who know how to speak, and are slightly more innocuous or coated terms. that's really gonna be the trick, and to some extent it's going to depend on the outcome of these primary elections, about how much trumps influence and's up kind of putting forward the candidates who are most lavishly and openly devoted to him. >> yeah, and i think also, david, there's two aspects here. because michelle, i was making the same point today that we are sort of talking about in the segment. the youngkin example in virginia, mcauliffe very frankly tried to tie to trump. he tried to have it both ways, he succeeded in having it both ways. i think that's harder in house and senate races. and i also think he is going to be more front and center for the party this year, david, both because of the investigations that maybe happened. the january six committee, possible indictments and, because of the nature of his commit action to -- win >> so much of this, michelle said, will be determined by who comes out of each primary. listen, he hasn't ruled observing the speaker of the house, and maybe because he wants to torture kevin mccarthy. >> yes. >> that poll is fascinating, and the problem as an american, is probably that 33% wanted to run, a lot of those are republican primary voters. i think a lot of things have happened the last couple of weeks, -- ron desantis. my personal view, chris, is i don't think he's gonna run. because, we're literally this close to losing democracy, because he lost to joe biden. imagine if he thinks he might know in the domination. i think the interesting thing is, you may see more republicans -- for anyone thinking of running a president in 24, for most of them, this is your one shot. this is it. so i think you're gonna see more people take shots at this guy, a lot of that probably happens at the end of 22 or 23. at the end of the day, we're gonna see you comes out of these primaries. and if a lot of them are like glenn youngkin, whatever's positions, our tv ads he ran were basically on mid awning tomorrow point oh. i think voters kind of want to reward politicians don't all throw in with the trump charade. i think that's gonna be a question about who comes out of these, i think these house votes in particular, there's gonna be the maga candidate who emerges. and i think we're gonna able to tie some of this to them. >> the other thing here, michelle, is the kind of macro economic conditions. i talk to ron mcclain, i think people in the white house understand. if the discussions continue, if it still feels like what on earth is going on, nothing works or as normal, and you can't buy things of the store, and things are expensive, and everything still off kilter, they are screwed. and if it gets better, they've got a fighting chance, and that's the core reality. >> right, i understand their frustration, because a lot of what's going wrong in american right now is not joe violence fault, it's not joe biden's fault that we have inflation in many different countries that pursue many different policies. but ultimately, american life right now is extremely dystopian, and people thought that the biden era was going to be an exit from the soviet. >> yeah, and i think that's the big question, is can things get better and david this horrible case if inflation comes down, if omicron is the last big wave. although, god knows, and you're in a position where the promise of exit from dystopia, then you can run on that record. in the midterms, that gives you a fighting chance, right? >> well, and then to turn it not into a referendum on joe biden, and the democrats, but a choice. and i think you can make a powerful contrast. that's the big thing, there is no message at the end of the week, no talking points, no ad that is going to clear the clouds of the pandemic. so until that happens, we're gonna be stuck in political purgatory. but if the clouds lift, i think you do have a fighting chance. >> for an agreement, let's end the pandemic. we solved it, david plouffe, and michelle goldberg. thank you both, that is all on, this thursday, night the rachel maddow show right starts right now. >> good evening chris, thanks my friend, much appreciated. thanks for joining us this hour, when the day this is been. be true. turns out it was rudy. here's the front page at cnn.com right now. giuliani led fake electors' plot. here's "the washington post's" version of the that same front page story today. giuliani coordinated plan for trump electoral votes in states biden won. it was mr. giuliani, apparently. you know, you find a little thread of a story, you tug and you tug and you tug some more an one day you're like one more tug on the same thread and the whole sweater comes apart. today the whole sweater came apart and now we're sitting in a