biden's calls to change senate rules to pass voting rights with a simple majority took to the senate floor to reiterate in no uncertain terms she's opposed to this change. >> while i continue to support these bills, i will not support separate actions that worsen the underlying disease of division infecting our country. the debate over the senate 60-vote threshold shines a light on our broader challenges. there's no need for me to restate my long-standing support for the 60-vote threshold to pass legislation and there is no need for me to restate its role protecting our country from wild reversals in federal policy. it is a view i've held during my years in serving both in the u.s. house and the senate. it is the view i continue to hold. >> president biden and democratic leadership find themselves trapped in a box on this issue, really it's a box of their own making. they are not going to get the support of enough republicans to pass voting rights lenls ligs, they really haven't tried, and they are not going to get the support of enough democrats to change the rules to pass it on their own. they haven't done the show and tell work in order to make the case to both senator manchin or answer their concerns because they haven't tried that, either. the frustrations among some of the caucus are clear. here is speaker pelosi speaking with reporters just a few minutes ago. >> madam speaker, you say today sets up a prospect for consideration. >> yeah. >> on new voting rights laws. this doesn't seem to be a prospect for actual passage. >> it may be. >> what's changing? where is this going? >> you have to go over and ask that in the senate. there is no use wasting your time asking me questions about what the senate will do. you have to go ask them what their next path is. >> in football terms that's called a punt. in his remarks on the senate floor this morning senate majority leader chuck schumer didn't seem to have a plan to break the impasse leaving him to basically yell into the void of republican opposition. >> republicans will have a chance to show where they stand on preserving the right of every eligible citizen to cast a ballot. republicans will have a chance to make clear where they stand on fighting efforts to empower partisan actors so subvert the election process and create more big lies in the future. republicans will have a chance to make clear where they stand on fighting the power of dark money which so many americans oppose and republicans will have a chance to show where they stand on ending partisan gerrymandering. >> gerrymandering, you're going, okay, see, this is why they've had trouble messaging this bill. that is not the direct response to what happened in 2020. so as the president huddles with democrats behind closed doors on his stalled voting rights and election agenda specifically his broader presidency is in a precarious position. covid surges, inflation soaring, approval ratings are dipping, midterms are approaching. for more on today's meeting i'm joined by our chief white house correspondent peter alexander, nbc's senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the latest from capitol hill. peter, i want to start with you. you know, the president -- deploying the president to the hill, those that enjoy "west wing" probably love the aaron sorkin-esque idea of get him up there and just make it so. they've deployed him a few times and he has not gotten many results. a no result on this one really -- really is a bit of a political blow, is it not? >> reporter: chuck, i think you're exactly right and the real risk here for the democrats and for this white house is that, again, it makes president biden appear weak in this situation. you will remember just a short time before he headed to atlanta for that big voting rights speech that he delivered there on tuesday of this week, senator manchin said that he believed there should be changes in the senate and to rules, but not the filibuster rule. so that was a dead end there. and then now about an hour before the president arrives on capitol hill for the senate democratic lunch today you have those strong words from kyrsten sinema. so, in fact, it is in many ways sort of a fatal wound for this president. and while the effort, as you saw, in chuck schumer's comments earlier on the floor at the capitol was to try to put this on republicans in many ways instead what it's done is shown the discord and struggles within the democratic party right now. that's a real frustration that the white house is trying to find a way to overcome. i was speaking with white house officials, they say that his remarks to the caucus will be a continuation of what he said very publicly as he hit the lectern, saying he was tired of being quiet. they say this is the right to vote is the right from which all other rights flow. so they're going to try to cast this as a historic moment and try to show that the democrats are united on this issue, but the bottom line is it demonstrates again that discord. >> peter, i want to play an excerpt from our colleague craig melvin's sit-down with the vice president. she seemed to have some tough words for man chin and sinema. let me play it. >> when we have the discussion about who is responsible, i will not absolve the 50 republicans in the united states senate from responsibility for upholding one of the basic and tornt tenets of our democracy, free and fair elections and access to the ballot. >> what about senator manchin and sinema? >> i don't think anyone should be absolved from the responsibility of protecting and preserving our democracy especially when they took an oath to protect and defend our constitution. >> you know, you invoke the oath, i mean, you are creating a straw man here that sounds like the vice president is saying manchin and sinema not supporting this means they are not upholding their oath. that's a tough charge and i know dick durbin thought the president may have gone too far in atlanta. any regrets here inside the white house, peter? >> reporter: i was just going to bring up what dick durbin said earlier when the president in his speech earlier this week basically said that you are either, you know, on our side, or you are on the side with notorious racists like george wallace or bull conner. this is a challenge for a bunch of reasons for the white house and i haven't heard any particular regrets about that language there, but the white house had to walk back some of the comments from kamala harris's interview with craig specifically as it related to testing where she seemed to be unprepared to answer that question. she said the test she thought would be out as early as next week. a white house official tells me it will be two weeks interest now that we will learn more information in the next 24 hours or so here. the challenge about sort of isolating manchin and sinema as the president has to speak to them is they need these guys not just for this but basically for everything not the least of which is build back better. the president himself has said many times he's dealing with what is effectively 50, 51 presidents on the democratic side. >> garrett haake, i have talked to a couple of democrats who seem to think manchin -- if manchin and sinema are no's on this, on this rule change, that it may not be 48 democrats are on the other side. >> reporter: chuck, i have thought all week that we might not even see this vote happen for exactly that reason. that by putting this vote on the floor you just expose how far you potentially are from the outcome you want. for example, we saw that on the minimum wage bill that happened in the middle of last year when they were starting to debate the build back better act. exposing that you don't have the votes is rarely a good legislative strategy, although, this is the bind that chuck schumer is in. he has a left flank that very much wants to have this vote, hold those who don't support these rule changes accountable. hold them to task. and he's got a lot of others on the other side who don't want to hold a politically damaging vote. chuck, breaking news just now, he doesn't have the votes to do anything right now because hawaii senator brian shots has just announced that he's got covid-19 and he's isolating which means democrats don't have 50 votes to do anything with only democratic votes for the foreseeable future. >> if he can't be there in-person they don't have remote voting. >> reporter: that's right. >> if shots can't be there in person they have to punt the weekend. >> reporter: it certainly looks that way. you need 50 votes to overcome the other republican 50 to bring something to the floor. unless there is a republican absence, democrats don't have the majority necessary to do anything on voting rights right now. >> you know, the writers really have to bring covid into this? into our voting rights thing. garrett, i know you have some reporting to do. let me go with the final question to peter alexander. look, i know they're never supposed to look at the poll numbers, but, my goodness, in the last six months it does seem as if the haley barber saying of good gets better and bad gets worse has been true. every time i think the white house thought they've hit bottom there seems to be a new bottom. >> reporter: yeah, that's right, and they have to hope that the most recent poll that just came out from quinnipiac that says the president's approval rating is hovering at 33%, which is to stha only one in three americans approve of the way the president is handling his job right now, this he have to hope that that is an outlier, but either way it's part of what's been a are crumby trajectory for this white house. so many of the numbers well below 50%, in the low to mid 40s in the course of recent weeks here. as we discussed on "meet the press" this week epend, as goes covid so goes this presidency. so while today is a moment that may demonstrate some weakness for the president it's really the issue of this virus that is the biggest challenge for them. >> sure is. >> reporter: the president today expressing real frustrations about this situation here and facing a lot of push back about why this white house since the president had promised many months ago had not done more to make sure these tests were ready, the fact they will be going out in late january, these 500 million they are saying on their way, many medical public health experts say by that point it doesn't help you all that much. it doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help you the way we needed it right now. >> no and as we talked yesterday on the show with dr. blackstock testing and masks have been the initial problem back in a previous administration and here we go again. peter, thank you. let me turn to the number two skrath in the houpts, maryland congressman steny hoyer. i hope you don't do to me what speaker pelosi did to the press corps saying, hey, go ask them how they're going to solve this problem. you know kyrsten sinema really well, she was on your whip team. she made it clear today she's not moving on this. if you don't have the votes, is this exercise worthwhile? is it worthwhile shining a spotlight on democratic division at a time when the party is -- is not doing so hot? >> democratic division, one out of 50, i wouldn't call division, i would call it doesn't get us over the line, that's for sure, but, you know, we passed it unanimously here, there are 49 votes over there and that's not division, but given the 50/50 division in the senate itself, representing a divided country unfortunately, it's tough to get things through. chuck schumer has a real challenge and we have a challenge. so that your question is is it worth going forward? absolutely it is, chuck. absolutely. we need to keep trying to do the right thing until the right thing happens. giving up is not an option on voting rights. giving up on our democracy is not an option. this is about our democracy. this is about people being not only allowed to vote, but being facilitated in casting their vote. not being made to jump over hurdles to cast their votes. people fought and died and bled for this right. i am so sad that john lewis is not here today. his speech on the floor today would have been unbelievably compelling in my opinion. but we can't stop and the president can't stop and we have to keep trying to convince every one of our voters because it's so close, 50/50, to come on board. i would hope -- >> i guess -- >> -- come on board. >> it's the tactics that i don't quite get. senators manchin and sinema made it clear where they were at the start of this congress. it was pretty clear where they were and, in fact, you had a lot of advocates that said, okay, you know, essentially show and tell here. manchin basically said until i'm convinced that this is -- it's immovable to function in the senate, i'm not going to get rid of this. there was no attempt over the last nine months, i mean, answer mitch mcconnell's charge. if this is the existential threat to this country, why wait nine months to push it? >> we didn't. we passed it through the house of representatives and they weren't able to bring it up and i think what chuck schumer has clearly been trying to do, and i think it's shown in so many instances, notwithstanding the fact we have unanimity on some issues that are pending in the senate, we don't have the 60 votes that you need to break the filibuster. we need to get rid of the filibuster. the filibuster was never contemplated by the founders. the founders absolutely believed that the senate, like the house, would operate by majority rules. that's the basis of our democracy, the majority rules. you protect the minority against abuse by the majority, but you don't protect the minority to the extent that they take over, that they control, that the minority is in control, not the majority. that's not democracy. so we need to get rid of the filibuster and i'm sorry that there are members who don't want to do that, and i would hope that we could convince them that it needs to be done. but that's what schumer has been trying to do. look, there are a whole lot of bills over there who are supported by the overwhelming majority of americans. let me give you just one example, chuck, that we passed last congress and this congress, months and months ago, and that is universal background checks for guns so that criminals and terrorists and people with mental health, domestic -- 85% to 90% of the american public supports that legislation, but we can't get it up on the floor because we don't have 60 votes. now, on reconciliation we can do things with the 50 votes. and even in this instance, chuck, all we can do is get the debate going. >> right. >> just the debate to discuss the greatest -- >> i guess the question -- the question -- >> the greatest deliberative body has become the most nondeliberative body. >> there is no doubt. i guess the question, though, is it's this all or nothing strategy. and i guess, you know, i have a phrase that i use a lot in my staff meetings, get caught trying. >> right. >> both on reconciliation and with the filibuster, it seems as if a lot of democrats just want to fast forward. they are presuming there will be no republican support so hurry up and get to the 50 vote margins, but you had a couple of holdouts and at the end of the day your coalition is your coalition, i mean, go win more elections you don't have to worry about one or two senators, but why not tactically try to, you know, show and tell throughout the year and then you might have a more receptive audience. no? >> well, chuck, what happened was i think that -- i think schumer has been trying to do that. for instance, the bill we're considering is not hr-1, it is the manchin bill that we're considering. obviously that was significant movement. there are some things that were not in that bill that are in our bill that people would like to have in that bill, but you're right, you try and we didn't get that. so joe manchin joined in the effort to come together and get a bill which he thought could get ten republican senators to join on to and have 60, not to do it by the majority rules rules, but do it with the 60 votes that the senate requires unfortunately. so there was movement. there was work and what we did, we didn't pass hr-1 again, we passed the manchin bill again, the freedom to vote act. i think it's unfair to sort of say they're just sitting on there -- keep passing stuff that won't pass. i think this bill, frankly -- i didn't see sinema's speech so i'm not sure exactly what she said, but my thought was this bill had 50 votes for it plus the vice president so it had enough votes to pass, but it didn't have enough votes to suspend the rules and make an exception on the filibuster rule. >> look, she supports the bill. she made that clear. she just doesn't support this change. she thinks it's a massive slippery slope. last question, do you agree with senator dick durbin that president biden might have gone too far with some of the bull conner references in atlanta? >> it wasn't so much he went too far. i think, you know -- i know bull conner, i watched bull conner on television set dogs loose on six, seven, eight-year-old children and i got really angry. so i know the bull conner reference, but i think most of americans have no idea who bull conner was unfortunately. so i think what he really needed to appeal was not in the language of what was done, not who did it because the names don't really mean something, i think, to people like bull conner, but i think the actions do mean something. the actions that were taken, setting dogs on children so that they would not go try to go into a public accommodation, setting dogs on children so they could discriminate against them on voting, discriminate against them on housing, education, separate but equal educational facilities which were not equal at all. bull conner in the face of children complaining about that set dogs on them. i think the american public today -- >> terrible person. >> yeah. today that would make -- but i think -- i think that clearly -- i said on the floor today when somebody got up an talked about states rights and i said, look, i'm old enough to remember when states rights were the battle cry of those who wanted to keep people in a secondary status. so i think -- i understand the president's references, but this voting rights and this bill is so many of us believe critical to the success and health of our democracy and that's why we're fighting for it so passionately and that's why the rhetoric gets passionate. >> fair point there. house majority leader steny hoyer, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. up next, how does president biden politically survive that seems to be an inevitable defeat in his attempt to adjust the filibuster. i guess this is plan b. do they have a plan c? later the white house's strategy to tackling the omicron surge that's crippling hospitals and making school staffing a huge problem. americans await the rapid tests. the tests may be rapid, but i don't know if they're coming in a rapid pace. you're watching "meet the press daily." n a rapid pace you're watching "meet the press daily. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. welcome back. as we mentioned, president biden is huddling with senate democrats on capitol hill as the future or near term future of his si sits? a somewhat precarious position. lots of presidents have had tough times. they can pull out of it. how does he do t especially if he has another legislative defeat with voting rights? build back better agenda is also stalled in the senate and obsly the covid response is certainly dealing a little bit of a blow to -- a little bit of a blow to his ability and his approval ratings. they're pretty bad right now fending on which poll you look at. the big question for the white house is how can they rebound, how can they get out of this spiral that they're in? joining me now is someone who knows a thing or two about white house messaging, that bunker mentality you can get sometimes, it is patrick gaspart, the white house political director under president obama during the first term and a former u.s. ambassador to south africa. patrick, we will get into the specifics in a minute on voting rights itself, but you've seen these moments, president obama had these moments, president bush had these moments, purchase had it basically for most of his term, but you are at a low point and you think, okay, you sort of -- the mentality in the white house sometimes bunker mentality sets in and sometimes they don't listen to any advice. what's the biggest mistake they could make here if voting rights does end up not going the way they want this weekend? >> thanks for having me on, chuck. i think they are actually learning the lessons of history already. the president going to atlanta, georgia, to have the conversation about voting rights isn't just about voting rights, but it's a signal to the democratic base, to allies, to partners, to say he's not going it alone, he's heard them on that critical issue and a number of others and appreciates that he can't get to the other side of this without activists, without their voices and without their engagement. the worst thing you can do in a white house when you have any kind of a crisis is to isolate. i don't see this white house doing that at all, chuck, and that's a good sign. the other thing is they've got to double down on their actual successes. three numbers, chuck, 200 million, 6 million and 50%. 200 million shots in terms, 6 million jobs in the biden economy, 50% reduction in childhood poverty. they will have to press hard into those successes. >> you know, this is an interesting conundrum i think they have there. look, the statistics are they're good, boom, you cannot sit here and say those numbers aren't good. the marne public is in a bad mood, understandably so. covid has just made -- people are just tired of living the same life and it happened in the holidays so it probably added to the or noteriness. i have a feeling these will be the worst poll numbers right after the holidays. there is this feeling. how do you get through that when you have a public that doesn't want to hear it? yeah, i know that stats are good, but, boy, you know, it's good right now, this feels like this could all go off a cliff any second now. look what happened with omicron. >> you have to have the patience for the long arc. being in the white house is not like being in a business where you're following the margins quarter to quarter, you've got four years to make the case and lay out a story before your name is on the ballot again. so that's one consideration. the other thing is that we know that some things that have been passed have been felt in the public and once we get past some of the drag of omicron, once we get past the drag of inflation, two related things, we will start to see those numbers tick up for the president. it's going to require a little bit of patience, but it also requires getting out of washington, d.c. for the president, the vice president and for that entire cabinet. having strong communicators in that cabinet and they need to be out in states, in arizona, in montana, in ohio telling this story and burnishing it to the media. >> it's interesting that you brought up that he's got to be out there in arizona. i had somebody text me and ask why did the president give that speech in atlanta? why didn't he give it in phoenix? obviously meaning, you know, if the idea is you're trying to create some pressure on a holdout, why not go to senator sinema's home state? how would you respond to that? >> do you know what, i think that he did exactly what dr. would do which is to go to the center of the greatest pain. look at the numbers in georgia, chuck. you have in that state majority african american precincts voters have to wait on average -- on average, chuck, 50 minutes to vote. majority white precincts in georgia voters wait on average six minutes. many african-american seniors waited two hours to vote and we have provisions being passed in that state that make it impossible to even give somebody a cup of water while they're waiting. i have organized in georgia, i've organized in florida, places where there are huge disparities between what the african-american community and non -- what nonwhite communities experience in voting. that's why he went there. now, in arizona the president and chuck schumer are really clear about where kyrsten sinema stand, they're clear about where joe manchin stands on this bill, both have said they're for the bill but they're against reforming the filibuster. they're hung up on this arcane rule, this bizarre notion that somehow it would create disunity as if there's unity now if we do away with the filibuster. they're asking joe biden to unilaterally disarm. i'm going to defend the rhetoric, the language that the president used in georgia with you, chuck. i think that right now our democracy is in peril. jon tester who is not somebody who is given to hyperbole a moderate from montana said this is the most important thing that he is going to face while he is in that senate. i think that both manchin and sinema need to recognize and telling democrats right now to disarm, disarm with putin at the border. if mitch mcconnell had a 50/50 senate right now, if we had to break a tie, he would have gone for the filibuster a long time ago. >> here is the thing, patrick, your party is in a situation that you've spent six months highlighting the inability of the party to get together, whether it's on build back better or it's on voting rights. now, i know others will say, hey, it's not one or two senators, it's 52 or 51. but you have put yourself in a position where the activists are angrier at their fellow democrats and that doesn't seem to be a healthy place to begin a midterm here. >> chuck, can i push back a bit here? let's just be clear that we didn't spend six months highlighting disunity. the president of the united states just spent the last year passing an unprecedented infrastructure bill that's bipartisan, passed a stimulus bill that put food on the table, saved jobs in this country and reduced childhood poverty by 50%. let's talk about a little bit of perspective on that. as it relates to build back better and voting rights, yes, there is a stumbling block with two u.s. senators when you have 98% of these caucuses supporting these bills. it's a challenge. things are hard. senator schumer said that it would be an uphill battle on voting rights, he has been proven right already by senator sinema, but as you say to your team they have to be caught trying on this. activists are frustrated, they have a right to be frustrated at some of the sequencing here, chuck, but trust that they are far more outraged by what mitch mcconnell and senate republicans and senators who are passing these unilateral changes in the states. >> i appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thank you, chuck. still to come, the latest stepped up efforts from the white house to combat the latest surge of cases and the criticism that they were unprepared. stay with us, you're watching "meet the press daily." they we. they we. stay with nder, thicker-cut steak and. wait sooo you're not coming out of retirement? i'm just here because subway has so much new, they bought time in this press conference to talk about it. "meet the press daily. see blood when you brush or floss can be a sign of early gum damage. parodontax active gum repair kills plaque bacteria at the gum line to help keep the gum sealed tight. parodontax active gum repair toothpaste zuriel: st. jude gave us hope. stephanie: all you've got to do is take care of your child, focus on her healing, give her a life. that for mother means a lot. and-- and thank you to st. jude. ♪ got my hair ♪ ♪ got my head ♪ ♪ got my brains ♪ ♪ got my ears ♪ ♪ got my heart ♪ ♪ got my soul ♪ ♪ got my mouth ♪ ♪ i got life ♪ welcome back. president biden traveling to the hill, he spoke about the administration's latest efforts to get the current coronavirus surge under control before he got there. six federal medical teams will be deployed to overwhelmed hospitals across the country next week as a record number of covid hospitalizations and more importantly staffing shortages have put some hospitals in crisis mode. the left side announced that the white house would take steps this month to make high quality masks like the kn 94 or kf 94 available to the public at no cost. he also said this. >> addition to the 500 million, half a billion tests that are in the process of being acquired to ship to your homes for free, today i'm directing my team to procure an additional half a -- an additional 500 million more tests to distribute for free. a billion tests in total to meet future demand. >> what's says details on how to order those tests will come tomorrow and shipping will begin by the end of the it's an understatement, folks, to say a billion rapid tests can't come soon enough, although still far below last winter's peak, daily deaths are up 40%, they are increasing in about half of all u.s. states. with omicron sweeping across the country infections could be weeks away from peaking everywhere. in states and cities where omicron first arrived, new york, new jersey and d.c., cases are starting to tick down. that could be a sliver of good news if that trend holds. we have a little bit of breaking news here on january 6 and some key arrests that have been made, i believe. i have to bring in -- sorry there, we were about to do a covid segment. i have to bring in pete williams. this was something we had some early heads up about, pete. what can you tell us? >> well, these are the first -- this is a significant new development in this case, chuck. the justice department for the first time now has filed seditious conspiracy charges today, charging 11 people with this for -- related to the january 6th riot at the u.s. capitol and among them is stewart rhodes of texas who, of course, is the founder and leader of the oath keepers. the significant thing there, of course, is several oath keepers have already been indicted in one of the big conspiracy cases, 19 of them, in fact, two of them have already pleaded guilty, but this adds the leader of the oath keepers stewart rhodes and adds the seditious conspiracy charge. i'm just looking at this material that has just come in. there's several other people that are charged in addition to this original case. it's said that -- i'm trying to see what this -- all right. the seditious conspiracy indictment says after the november election stewart rhodes conspired with his co-defendants to oppose by force the execution of laws governing the transfer of presidential power. and here is a key thing in this, chuck, because one of the things we've been waiting to hear is whether the government has been able to look at the encrypted communications that some of the capitol rioters have been using to plan their attack. according to the indictment here it says that they used this encrypted communication to coordinate and plan to travel to washington and made plans to bring weapons. i don't see in here anything specifically -- well, let's see. they conspired -- let's see -- to organize teams, prepared and willing to force and transport firearms into washington, to come to the capitol grounds, to breach an attempt to take capitol grounds and building on january 6th. so it appears, chuck, from my initial reading that this is the first time the federal government has ever alleged there are specific plans to enter the capitol. up until just now all the conspiracy charges have said that these people communicated, planned to come to washington, planned to be armed, stayed together, planned to travel to capitol hill, planned to attend the rally, planned to go to the capitol, but there's never been an allegation by the government that there was a plan -- a well-developed plan in advance to enter the capitol and try to stop the vote. >> so -- >> so this appears to be the first of these. >> pete, i don't want to presume anything there and i know you want to get to reading, i'm going to bring in joyce vance to give you a breather. it certainly looks from the outside they've certainly attested and charged a lot of oath keepers. it's hard not to conclude that they must have some folks who are cooperating now. no? pete? >> oh, i'm sorry, i thought you were waiting for joyce. yes. well, look, two things, one is cooperating witnesses and the other is now that this case has advanced along the government is able to use court process to try to get some of these encrypted communications that it couldn't get in the early phases of the case. now, obviously it's been a year since this happened and this has been something of a holy grail for the investigators to try to figure out what these folks were saying to themselves in these what's app apps and other encrypted methods that they were used to using to text and email back and forth to each other. so whether it's people who are now talking to them or whether it's -- and using that to leverage their ability to get this encrypted communication, in any event, they claim now to know a lot more. >> let me bring in joyce vance, former u.s. attorney. joyce, sedition, a charge of sedition, according to our research here it's been at least since 2010, world trade center bombers were charged with this, some aq cells. this is not a small thing. explain. >> this is an enormously significant step by doj because it sets the tenor not just for this case but it gives us a clue about how they view january 6, and they, in fact, are now on record saying that they view it as sedition. so, chuck, if you don't mind, i don't have the statutory language memorized but i have it on my phone and i'd like to share what the government has to prove, if that's okay. >> please do. i mean, with err in the moment here and i think a lot of people are very curious, so go right ahead. read from your phone. >> the statute that they've charged this seditious conspiracy makes it a crime for two or more people to conspire to overthrow, put down or destroy by force the united states government. it's also a crime to by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the united states, or by force to seize, take or possess any property of the united states. so we can see a lot of statutory room there for the government. i haven't seen the indictment itself. it is highly significant to see this charge and the question that i have moving forward from this indictment is just how high does this conspiracy go? we now know that this group of oath keepers including their leader has been charged. it seems likely to me that when you talk about flipping people and having them cooperate in the investigation that there's some question as to whether the leader of the oath keepers has a relationship with people like roger stone for whom they provided or others and just how high their knowledge and that relationship about what was planned for january 6 might go. >> joyce, there had been some legal observers from the outside had been wondering why sedition hadn't been charged with a lot of others. explain -- explain the sort of hesitation, you think, that merrick garland and those folks at justice had in charging sedition and why they may have preserved it for this. >> it's very important and it's a little bit of a curiosity here because some of the judges in the district of columbia have frankly been critical of doj for not bringing more serious charges in the lower level cases, but i have always believed and you and i have discussed before the fact that doj has to have some place to go as the conduct gets more serious. if you start out with seditious conspiracy charges with people who were caught up in the moment and overran the conduct -- overran the capitol, well, their conduct is serious and you want to charge it, but you want to charge it appropriately, reserving these seditious conspiracy charges for the most culpable people, the people who are actually planning to do what the statute that i just read to you from prohibits, this notion of conspiring to interfere with and even to overthrow a legitimate election. >> pete williams, i just want to confirm there's been 19 arrests already made or are they still in the process of rounding everybody up? >> i haven't read the total number of people. a lot of these people for many of them these are new charges to people that were already indicted in the oath keepers, the earlier oath keepers conspiracy case, but i go through the indictment here, chuck, what they say now is they've gotten encrypted communications that rhodes sent to his leadership group on november 7th. so shortly after the election, saying that he was impressed by how the serbians tried to take control of the parliament after mill owes vich it says stole the elections. one of the things they did is we stormed the parliament and he put this under a plan that he headlined what we the people must do. i'm still reading through this, chuck, to see specifically what the government says about plans to storm the capitol, whether they were actually formed in advance, but that's the closest i have seen to it so far. >> i think ari melber has joined us. i want to read another part of this release here, ari, and get you to react to it as we are all playing catch up here. while certain oath keepers, members and affiliates breached the capitol grounds and building, this is according to the department of justice, others remained stationed just outside of the city in quick reaction force, qrf they shortened this for, quick reaction force teams. according to the indictment the qrf teams were prepared to rapidly transport firearms and other weapons into washington, d.c. in support of operations aimed at using force to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power. i don't want to presume anything here, ari, but all of a sudden it feels like the justice department had arrested a lot of spokes and this is one of the first hubs that they've got and charged. fair? >> i think that's fair. i think that's exactly right. as you and our colleagues have been breaking down here in what's a brand-new unsealed indictment what we're seeing here in this, in the seditious conspiracy framework is a much higher level view of what is charged as the organizing, the planning, which we still need to track down and the trial would ultimately do that, exactly how early they think that began and when this was operationalized, but the planning of the language you just quoted, chuck, which i think is important, the violent overthrow of the government. and there was much debate as we recall because we all lived through it that day of what are we seeing, how much is planned, how much is out of control. they talk about transporting firearms and ammunition, i'm quoting the doj. the idea that that was always at least according to some of these planners the goal, and that speaks to the sort of larger view of this. there is a nonlegal discussion over who was pushing this and what is their culpability in our public life and whether it was effectively a coup, a sri lent or bloodless coup, both illegal and wrong, and then there is a legal part of this which is going up the line. of course, it was the president during a debate that told some militia-type groups to stand by. all of this raises the questions of where doj is headed. >> pete williams, what more can you fill in here? >> i would just say that this idea of the quick reaction force, the government has alleged that for quite a long time. that's been part of the original oath keepers indictment. so that's -- that doesn't take us anywhere new. you knew, i think from what i'm seeing here basically what we have is, a, the leader of the oath keepers now charged and, you know, it's been a long time question. he has always said i wasn't there, i didn't have anything to do with this. so the government now is saying that he was involved in the planning. the key question here is planning for what? because the government has always alleged that these folks came to town planning to raise hell and planning to make so much noise in the streets that it would get congress' attention, but i'm still looking for an allegation that there was a plan in advance to storm the capitol, other than -- or enter the capitol, other than the language he quoted earlier about the serbian parliament. >> joyce vance, this is more than a year, right, after the attack that they're basically indicting the oath keepers. they've always been -- you know, we knew members of the oath keepers were there. what does that tell you and what does it tell you that they don't lay it out, they don't lay out exactly what they have? is it they're protecting somebody? is that one possibility? or do they not -- do they may not have the dots -- they have some dotted lines, but they don't have any direct lines yet? >> i doubt they would have brought these charges unless the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed, but the federal rules of pleading don't require you to go into great detail. i think we've gotten a little bit spoiled, chuck, we've been used to what prosecutors call speaking indictments that lay out the allegations around a crime in great detail. that was bob mueller's practice during the mueller investigation era. >> we in the media love speaking indictments, joyce. >> absolutely. and now that i'm on the other side i do as well, chuck. they're where we get all of our good information. so we have to pick this one a little bit harder to see what's in it. the government is, of course, required to prove the agreement to engage in the conspiracy. that's the central element here that people that people intended to enter into an agreement to achieve illegal acts. and the government is required to plead in the indictment some overt act. that means acts that various members of the conspiracy engaged in in furtherance of this conspiracy. we'll learn more about this case, i suppose as it's in progress. it seems to me nonetheless very important and singular that the government confirms it does view what happened on january 6th as an act of sedition. >> josh lederman joins us, he's done some reporting on oath keeper leader stuart rhodes. tell us more about how he runs this thing. >> well, if you look at the remarkable arc, chuck, in the life and history of this man stuart rhodes who i think we'll all get to know a lot more about in the coming hours, this is not someone who spent his whole life as an antigovernment kind of guy. this is a former congressional staffer, somebody who worked in these same halls that his compatriots attacked on january 6th, and really was someone who started out in libertarian points of view, going to ivy league law school, clerking on the supreme court in arizona, even writing an award-winning paper about how the bush administration in his view was violating the constitution with its war on terrorism. and what we have seen from stuart rhodes, if you examine his writings over the years, is that the original commitment and interest in liberty and freedom gave way over the years to a more nativist type of approach to politics that we've seen from so many of these individuals. in stuart rhodes' case in particular, the oath keepers was really an effort to appeal to former law enforcement, to former military, to people who sort of had that sense of hierarchy and that kind of training and background, and particularly those who were disaffected, and to bring tm into something where they felt like they were still part of a hierarchy and a group that was oriented much like a police group would be, you know, considering itself a defender of people's safety and their freedoms. but at the same time taking part in the kinds of activities that we've seen now so many of these oath keepers facing charges as a result of their actions on january 6th. >> josh, is this the kind of guy that would try to plea? or do you think he fights? >> i think he fights. i think that he is in the kind of same vein as a steve bannon type of who relishes the attention and sort of being seen as a fighter for his cause. i would be very surprised to see a plea from him. >> pete williams, is it even -- are we even ready to know what a potential timeline could be if rhodes was brought to trial? what should we expect? >> i'm sorry, chuck, somebody is talking to me right now. let me have you ask that question again. >> a, i know you've been reading more of the indictment, but b, with stuart rhodes, is this something, if this goes to trial, are we talking probably a year at the earliest, or do you think justice is hoping they actually can squeeze him a little bit, maybe find out more? >> well, i'm sure that's always the goal in the arrest of any of these folks. remember that the first of the trials from the capital riot won't happen until next month. so it's been a year and a month since some of the initial arrests before we'll actually get to trial. so yes, it will be many months from now before he keeps to trial. i think the best way, chuck,,000 that i've had a chance to skim through the indictment, so summarize it, is this. the important thing is, a, the leader of the oath keepers, stuart rhodes, has been arrested and charged with seditious conspiracy along with ten other people including other members of the oath keepers and a man named edward vallejo of phoenix. second, that he was involved in encrypted communications in planning. we haven't seen a plan, well-developed, to breach the capitol. but he refers a couple of times to that, one before the election, one at 1:30 in the afternoon on january 6th, he texts the following: the founding generation stormed the governor's mansion in massachusetts and seized and dumped tea in water. they didn't fire on them but they street fought. next comes, our lexington is coming. i think the importance here is the charge of him and also these very serious now new charges which ups the ante considerably of seditious conspiracy, chuck. >> joyce vance, if you're bringing seditious conspiracy as your charge, do you think this is something justice wants to take to trial? >> they're 100% prepared to go to trial on this case. and you often have this duality as a prosecutor. certainly they believe these defendants are convictable. taking a quick look at the indictment, it also seems clear that there is reason to believe that these defendants and certainly the leader of the oath keepers would have more to share about other people that they were in communication with. so your goal one way or the other is to obtain their testimony. and that can either be because they cooperate and plead guilty or because you convict them at trial and then when they no longer have a fifth amendment privilege to assert, you compel them to testify. so it's a little bit of a mixed bag here. certainly prosecutors would be very happy to get testimony and cooperation, because ultimately the goal is to land on the people who are most cupable for what happened on january 6th. >> right, and it feels like they're climbing the ladder. but i'm guessing many people don't believe this is the top of the ladder or the pyramid or whatever metaphor you want to leave. pete williams, joyce vance, ari melber, josh lederman, thank you. i imagine we'll see more of you. we'll be back tomorrow with "meet the press daily." msnbc coverage continues on this breaking news with katy tur, after the break. news with katy, after the break. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we're following that breaking news in the criminal investigation into the january 6th insurrection. the department of justice has filed seditious conspiracy charges against a number of january 6th rioters including the head of the oath keepers, stuart rhodes, who was arrested today in texas. joining me now is nbc news justice correspondent pete williams and university of alabama law professor and former u.s. attorney joyce vance.

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