lawyers, not the ones we witnessed and show us the districts and how. i've not seen that. >> there were some ig relg larties, there were none that would have risen to the point they would change the vote outcome in a single state. the election was fair as fair as we've seen. we simply did not win the election as republicans for the presidency. >> now, the on reason that this is news is because we are talking about a political party ruled by a man who cannot emotionally handle having lost an election, who dreams of becoming an american autocrat and who of course, lashed out at the republican senator who you just heard by threatening the election and free press. all signs of creeping authoritarian robbing our democracy from within. that's now what republicans stand for embodied by wisconsin senator ron johnson who is breaking his term limits pledge and running for reelection. the january 6th apologiests has a seriously low approval rating and here is a sample of why that is. >> the fact of the matter is, even calling it an insure -- insurrection, it wasn't. if those were black lives matter and antifa protesters, i might have been concerned. you have a vaccine, what do you care if your neighbor has one or not? standard gar gle, mouthwash will kill covid. >> he's the listerine kills covid guy and kevin mccarthy who today threatened the pettiest of political retaliations against democrats saying if republicans win control of the house in the midterm elections and put him in charge, he will remove some high profile democratic members from their committees naming eric swalwell and adam schiff as democrats he'd remove for no other reason than to troll. joining me is wisconsin's lieutenant governor, a democrat vying to face senator ron johnson this fall and lieutenant governor barns, thank you for being here. you are going to be running against someone who in sort of the normal world would be considered a ridiculous figure. saying that you can gargle listerine to kill covid and there was no insurrection, if it was black lives matter supporters he'd be worried but not who left five officers and others dead during an insurrection but in this world now, he is kind of norm core republican. let me play for you jordan klepper went on an interview, normal republicans from your state back in june. take a listen. >> i think the country is going to pot right now. >> not the country we grew up in. >> what country did you grow up in? >> the land of the free. >> the united states of america in the '60s. >> things were better in the 6 0s. >> yes. >> in the '60s, we knew which drinking fountain to drink from. >> exactly. >> how do you run for office in that kind of an environment in a state like wisconsin? >> first of all, thank you for having me and what we do in a state like wisconsin is take our message directly to the voters. we take our message directly to the people because although 71% of people are republicans, they think that donald trump won the overwhelming majority of people know democracy won, know joe biden is the rightful president of the united states of america so what we're going to do is run a grass roots campaign. we're going to reach out to every corner of this state. i've already been to every county as lieutenant governor doing the work of the people and we're going to show backup throughout this campaign to talk about our plan to make sure health care is available to everybody in wisconsin and make sure we're doing something to address climate change and also to rebuild the middle class that gave people like me opportunities and that's all. that's what it comes down to in a state like wisconsin. we don't want anything more. we certainly don't want anything less and that's certainly what ron johnson is providing. he's been providing the worst type of leadership telling these conspiracy theories doing the work to divide us as a country and serving as a distraction while he gives tax breaks to his wealthiest donors. the u.s. senate losing billions because of the changing of tax laws in this country. so we'll continue showing up every county, every community and if you-all are with us, go to www.mandellabarns.com. >> let me dig a little deeper into that. wisconsin is an interesting state. this is a state president obama won in 2008. he then won it again in 2012. it's a true swing state because it then swung to donald trump. so trump's margin of victory barely won it in 2016 but he did manage to squeak it out and then biden won in 2020 by about that much. that's a heck of a swing in a short period of time and the thing that stands out to me about that time period is there is a black president and you had a republican party that reacted by going very hard on racism and pricking white anxiety and what they're doing now is to say critical race theory, teaching history is going to make white children traumatized. they're using race in a very overt way post trump. you, obviously, an african american man running statewide can presume the kind of race they're running against you. how do you push back on that? do you push back on it? tell me how you navigate this openly racist world that the republican party have created for themselves politically? >> well, donald trump open that door of ron johnson was more than happy to walk through but i'll tell you, they haven't been the only two. there are so many people in republican leadership who have taken this task and decided they would let racism rule the day but we're better than that. a state like wisconsin we have proud traditions. we were the first state to declare the fugitive state constitution. we're the first state to ratify the 19th amendment. we have a history of doing bold things in this state and if you show up, you'll meet all kinds of amazing people, those are the folks powering this campaign and that's exactly as i mentioned, we're taking our message, taking this campaign to. i do believe that the light will drown out the darkness. i do believe that better is possible. there are so many people who are dissatisfied with big business as usual is ron johnson has been giving to this state. we got rid of scott walker in 2018. a lot of people didn't think that was possible. it was a gigantic task. it seemed impossible when we were in it. it was almost impossible. almost felt impossible on the stage giving an acceptance speech but it happened and i'll tell you, in 2022 this november, it's going to be the same story when it comes to ron johnson. we don't do well with people who continue to disserve the folks they were elected to represent and if ron johnson isn't going to do the work of the people, i'll do it for them. >> we wish you luck. hope you'll come back often and you won state ride so we know you know how to run a race. mandela barns, thank you very much, sir. appreciate you. let's bring in charlie sikes. you have the benefit or maybe the detriment of knowing ron johnson well and wrote a really great piece about his trajectory and the trajectory is real for republicans in general. even you, you've been a talk radio host on the right and in the same wing of the world with us. talk about how somebody goes from being kind of a norm corish i just want tax cuts republican to being what ron johnson is and do you think that what he is now makes him more or less viable for reelection? >> the honest answer is i really do not know because i did know ron johnson in the before times before he went completely before he went bat bleep crazy. the thing about ron johnson is, he ought to be the most vulnerable republican in the country. on earth 2.0 he should be dead man walking. he should be an embarrassment. and yet, the reality is that in our current environment, he has a very reasonable chance to win reelection and may be the favorite given the dynamics of midterm elections and that says so much about our politics and it says so much about the republican party that they look at ron johnson and what he has become and says and goes yeah, we're okay with that. >> yeah, let me play a few for adam kinzinger. he hit it spot on. he said it so perfectly over the weekend because i think people make the mistake of believing this is all trump based and trump created this dynamic what i've never thought that. i think he just caught on to a train already moving. here is adam kinzinger this weekend. >> donald trump is a symptom of years and years of leaders, you know, profit driven radio shows, whatever turning the base into this angry, fearful, you know, victimizing group of people. >> if any race of people should not have guilt about slavery, it's caucasians. the white race has probably had fewer slaves and for a briefer period of time than any other in the history of the world. >> and this is the same guy who in 2010 called, you know, obamacare reparations and used that to like excite his audience. i mean, this has been decade after decade after decade of people feeding that and donald trump was a listener. that's why he gave him the presidential medal of freedom. so i think when you've -- do you think at this point the republican base is so captured by that sense of grievance, that national whine that you can't undo it and that is why ron johnson is still viable? >> the short answer is yes. and i have to say, joy, look, for many years i was part of this and didn't recognize this and among my great regrets has been going along some of this and going along and promoing ron johnson. i deeply regretful. i think the democrats will be deeply regretful if they don't do everything possible to oust him. you're absolutely right. i think adam has come around to this view which is that this is function was a preexisting condition and i do think that that position you played is very, very important because, you know, we're living in the world rush limbaugh created and donald trump would not be president if it was not for people like rush limbaugh preparing the way for him so i also think that it's true even if donald trump disappeared from the political world today, this wouldn't change, this dynamic of what we're seeing the ron johnsons of the world and embrace of conspiracy theories and obsession with identity politics and the sense of victimization, the politics of ginning up fear and anger against other people and other americans. that's part of the world we live in and that's what ron johnson has now embraced and he's gone along with it but i think he's gone further because i think he's gone down so many rabbit holes you can't count them anymore. but yes, this is part of the reality that we face in 2022. >> let me just play to under score that point. this is a current wisconsin talk show host named vicki mckenna on insurrection day. >> on this solum day of remembrance, i can't take this garbage seriously. january 6th was a lot like one day of the occupation of the wisconsin capitol when scott walker was governor, and exactly nothing like the riots in minneapolis, the riots in kenosha, the riots in madison. >> and this is why i mean one of the other things kinzinger said is what brought donald trump back is kevin mccarthy running down to mar-a-lago and getting on one knee to donald trump and bringing him back to life, right? even though he knew it was wrong. so this line that ms. mckenna is saying, that is why kevin mccarthy, the only way he can buy the loyalty of those idiot crew that run the house is to promise to expel ilhan omar or run adam schiff out of town. he has to do that, right? that's the only way he can survive. >> you played the republican party in wisconsin today. and, you know, ron johnson is very much a creature of shows like vicki mckenna's. you hear him say are set on shows like this and it is this feedback loop of doom but that moment that kinzinger described is really extraordinary because it was about five minutes after january 6th when republicans had the moment they say my gosh, it's gone too far. donald trump is reckless and dangerous and crazy and that lasted for about five minutes and of course, kevin mccarthy did what the rest of the party did was to go down and bow the knee and you see now they created this narrative, the narrative that it was january 6th was really no big deal. it was no different than other protests that were largely peaceful or, you know, compare it to riots took place elsewhere. obviously, it was a fact to overturn an election and stopping the counting of the electoral vote. to understand ron johnson you need to listen to people like vicki mckenna because that's who he listens to. >> for years and years and years i listened to rush limbaugh and glen beck because if you don't know what they're saying, you don't understand what is going on on the other side of this. >> exactly right. >> you need to listen to it, folks. it's eye opening. thank you very much. i hope adam kinzinger will come on the show one time. >> jim jordan, the guy that has nothing to hide is refusing to cooperate in a big test for the january 6th committee because if they don't vigorously pursue jordan, they will never go after trump. also, president biden and vice president harris head to georgia to argue for voting rights legislation, but in a late development tonight, a collision of voting rights group says it will not participate in the biden harris emit. i'll have a discussion with a woman who doesn't think she needs the covid vaccine and why doctors and scientists say she does. in tonight's absolute worst, a repeat offender we try to find someone else, y'all, i swear but no one else came close. 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>> i've talked to the former president up teen times, thousands -- not thousands but countless times. i continue to talk to the president. >> i mean on january 6th, congressman. >> yes. >> on january 6th, did you speak with him before, during or after the capitol was attacked? >> i'd have to go -- i spoke with him that day after. i think after. i don't know if i spoke to him in the morning or not. i just don't know. >> i talked to him that day. my understanding is from my memory, i talked to him after the attack happened and we were moved to the chamber. i may have talked to him before. i don't know. >> those are hum, hum, hum answers from jordan who is known for hysterically badgering witnesses he would have never accepted if the shoe were on the other foot and we'll address that in a second. it is raising the question whether they will raise a subpoena against a fellow member of congress but if they don't, how will they subpoena a former president? with me now is david jolly no longer with the party and former u.s. attorney joyce vance and david, you know this guy. does it surprise you that somebody who is ranking member of the judiciary committee who literally screams and sheiks at witnesses for a living is going to defy this select committee? >> look, on a base lying level of patriotism, yes, it surprises me but what we know is jim jordan is hiding a lot. he is covering up a lot. he is hiding and covering up text messages, voice mails, whatever the communications look like with donald trump that day, which he has acknowledged kind of but kind of not knows the president's frame of mind and that's the most critical piece that jordan can offer. now, i would also tell you, i think the committee will have a tough time enforcing a say knee -- subpoena against jim jordan. we may have talked about this a week or two ago. i think what the committee has to demonstrate is jim jordan likely has information related to the conduct of criminal activity because jim jordan is right, just protesting the election on the floor of the house as a member of congress that has been done before in past elections was done in this one, that by itself is not enough to have doj and the courts intervene in a member versus member conversation but if the committee can demonstrate that jim jordan might actually have information related to consciousness of guilt of the president or the president's frame of mind, perhaps they could enforce this. >> let me -- that is the key question, i believe. this is -- here is bennie thompson on "meet the press" last week and this is the key question whether or not they can take that request up a level to a subpoena. take a listen. >> you think you're going to subpoena a sitting member of congress? >> well, i think there is some questions of whether we have the authority to do it. we looking at it. if the authorities are there, there will be no reluctance on our part. >> so that is the key question, joyce. can congress to your knowledge lawfully subpoena a sitting member? >> it's an open question and it involves the speech and debate clause privilege and whether members' immunity for activity they engage in off the floor of the house would extend to what went on here but the reality, joy, is the committee will likely get to the point where it will issue a subpoena. it seems unlikely they would have come to this juncture without knowing they would have to and the real question is will someone enforce that subpoena to them if jim jordan fails to compile, which he seems unlikely to compile. >> the thing is if they can't get through a subpoena against him, it's doomed to subpoena trump. i talked about jim jordan badgers folks. i want to play a little bit of the way he behaves when he's in his seat with the gavel in his hand. >> i also said that there were some who tried to justify -- >> secretary clinton -- >> on the basis of the video, congressman, and i think -- >> real quick, calling it an attack is like saying the sky is blue. of course it was an attack. >> that is not accurate, sir. >> it is accurate. we caught you -- >> mr. chairman, can we allow the answer. >> the virus doesn't spread awareness? >> i didn't say that. >> may i answer that question? >> i'll get to you and give you a chance in a second. >> who told papadopoulos? how did he find out? >> i can't get to the answer -- >> yes, you can. >> if the house goes to the republicans, can we not assume that they are going to use their power, not to try to advance legislation or do anything for their people but what their constituents want is for them to own the libs and so if democrats refuse to accept subpoenas that for whatever non-sense they try to come up with, don't you think that republicans are going to demand and insist their subpoenas that be honored? >> oh, absolutely. i mean, republicans know one tactic and it's scorched earth and there is patience and jurisprudence being used. i use the word patriotism in the last exchange and i really mean it. jim jordan knows donald trump's frame of mind on january 6th. he knows the president's frame of mind. he was in contact with the president and he is unwilling to share that with the 1/6 committee. that in and of itself should raise questions of patriotism around jim jordan. whether or not he can litigate his way out of testifying will be a matter for department of justice in the courts but you better be sure when jim jordan has the gavel, watch out democrats. he's coming for you. i'd say don't hesitate to go for him in this moment right now. >> the true sign of an authoritarian follower is you turn against your body you serve in. i have to bring this up with you, joyce. there is this other thing going on out there. we'll get this more tomorrow. forged election slates, this happened. trump supporters with no legal authority in the state of michigan and arizona forged documents which were designed to be slates of electors tried to pass them off as legitimate. they did it in wisconsin, as well. michigan and wisconsin and tried to put those things forward. that seems to me to be an obvious crime. they were trying to perpetrate a fraud by submitting electors they knew to be fake. why is that not the subject of some sort of criminal charge at this point? >> so we know from merrick garland's speech last week that doj is not saying what it is or isn't looking at but we have garland's vow that he'll look at everything that contributed to the effort that took place on january 6th. we know that the january 6th committee is now reaching out to the states and it's very curious these fraudulent lists of electors were submitted. we know that in at least two of the states where this happened, they got out reached and advised it happened. in one state in arizona they reached out to a group of sovereign citizens, which is a right wing ilitia group and told them to not do it anymore but whether there is more to this is something we'll talked about in the weeks ahead. >> definitely. we'll get into this more tomorrow. think about that folks listening now. people who were trying to set aside 160 some odd million votes but submitting fake electors and saying take these and the question becomes how high up the chain did it go to people that know that might have been part of the plan to try to submit these false electors and try to get them to be accepted by the national archives and united states senate. it terrifying. they will try it again. david jolly, joyce vance, thanks ahead. president biden and vice president harris are heading to the battleground state of georgia tomorrow to push for voting rights protections but with two conservative democratic senators, is there any hope? 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try nervivenerve relief from the world's #1 selling nerve care company. nervive contains alpha lipoic acid to relieve occasional nerve aches, weakness and discomfort. try nervivenerve relief. i'm always up for what's next, even with higher stroke risk due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin i'll go after that. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk better than warfarin and has less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis has both. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor about eliquis. you could wait... all night... for an email response from steve, who will sign back in at 9 am tomorrow morning. orrrr... you could find the answer right now in slack. and give steve a break. slack. where the future works. we gave new zzzquil pure zzzs restorative herbal sleep and give steve a break. to people who were tired of being tired. i've never slept like this before. i've never woken up like this before. crafted with clinically studied plant-based ingredients that work naturally with your body. for restorative sleep like never before. president biden is heading to atlanta georgia tomorrow for a speech on voting rights legislation. biden and vice president harris will make an urgent call for the passage of federal voting rights laws specifically two bills stalled by senate republican obstruction. senate democrats are expected to take up a bill by mlk day to change senate filibuster rules opposed by two conservative democrats that won't say what they support which is partly why some georgia voting groups told the white house to stay away unless they have plan to get the legislation over the finish line. a joint statement signed noted georgia voters made history and made their voices heard overcoming obstacles, threats and suppressing laws. a visit forced on them requiring them to accept repetitious bland promises without concrete action without signs of real tangible work is uncceptable and a collision of groups announced they will be skipping president biden's speech. joining me now is latosha brown. these groups are not just black voters, asian-american advocacy fund, the impact action fund to win the state in 2021 in that special election and in 2020 aren't going to be there. tell me why. >> it is not our goal to be combative. we're trying to send a message of how serious this is for us. that's over a year when we're looking at sb 202 and the damage it did in the state of georgia currently right now many voters that supported and came out and voted in record numbers, we have less voting rights protection now than we did a year ago and we're saying that is long past the time for just speeches. at this moment, what we want to see is we want to see a dealing hand. we want to see the build sign. we believe there was a lot of goodwill. there was a lot of momentum lost in the last year because the democrats did not, we don't feel like this administration made this a priority so we're always welcoming, yes, we welcome to come visit our state. we want administration to be successful but what we also need to do is hold each other accountable and this administration accountable. it's unconscionable we're here a year later and don't have voting rights legislation in place. we're sending the message of we're serious and this is the moment we're expecting real, real delivery. >> i should note that per the great reporting at 19th news, stacey abrams won't be there. she said she had a conflict, interesting she won't be there either. and so when the president and the vice president come down, it doesn't appear that they have in place an agreement by manchin and cinema to push through this legislation on the 17th. and so there is a lot of push back saying what will they come and say? one got into a little bit with a lot of folks on social media saying what do you think the plan should be? it not my job to come up with the plan? want me to chew their food for them too? they need to do the work. to answer that critique people have, they're the executive branch. they can't make manchin and cinema do anything they want them to do. how do you answer that? >> i think there is a couple of things. i think one, the president actually made a calculate mistake early on last year. i think at the end of the day, it was very clear that this was not a priority for him, that he -- the way that he spoke about the infrastructure bill, he did not speak about voting rights. matter of fact he said earlier on in an interview that he would be willing to sign it. i've been saying consistently we need an lbj moment and him to get behind in the state. we're going to have voting rights in the country and i'm supporting that and put the same kind of what i thought the fullness of his power of this offense, he didn't do that. as a result, here we find ourselves now. there are many that believe that the best use of time would be in the senate, to be in d.c. and to actually rally the kind of support and votes we need. i am hopeful we'll have voting rights legislation but i think that this speaks to the frustration, you know, that people are feeling on the ground and groups that are actually doing the hard work and continue to be working hard right now to actually just listen to words. we want real action. just as every other american, you know, americans vote for people not because they want speeches but they want results. we delivered and i think that is very reasonable for us to expect that the democrats would deliver as well and that this administration would deliver, as well. >> you know, i point out for those who watch the show know our friend joe madison, you and i both care a lot about. i texted with him frequently because i'm worried about him. he's on 60 some odd days of this hunger strike. we had another group of clergy and civil rights leaders join. he's on day 64. there are two dozen faith leaders that joined in doing it, too. people are literally putting their lives on the line. what do you make of the fact people's health risk, their lives are at risk and this has not seemed to have moved joe manchin or cinema at all. >> you know, i have so many comments that i can say around that. you know, i think part of it is that manchin is lying all the while. you know, i think he has never had real intentions to support this but i also believe that there is a tremendous amount of pow there goes with administration and part of the reason why we've actually been calling the carpet, administration to the carpet on this is because we believe that the president does set the tone of the policy priorities and so that we felt like that we feel that he did not set the tone early on enough around that voting rights was a priority, yet, we find ourselves here. what we're expecting, we're expecting that this administration will deliver, that we will have federal votes rights legislation that will support the americans in this country and that it will be a priority for this administration. this is a president that was in the senate for four decades, joy. if there is anyone i would expect to know how to navigate and maneuver through the senate, it would be him. right? is there is an expectation that they will deliver on these voting rights. >> i think that is entirely reasonable because you certainly can't organize your way out of voter suppression and the reversal of elections, which is the other thing they made possible in the state of georgia. thank you for doing the work you do and appreciate you being here tonight. up next, tonight's absolute worst. well, is one of our regulars. he just makes it too easy and later, confronting vaccine hesitancy, is there any way to change the minds of friends and family that refuse to take the shot? we'll be right back. t refuse toe shot shot we'll be right back. if you really want” by jimmy cliff] new vicks vapostick. strong soothing vapors... help comfort your loved ones. shot we'll be right back. if you really want” by jimmy cliff] for chest, neck, and back. it goes on clear. no mess just soothing comfort. try new vicks vapostick. when a truck hit my car, the insurance company wasn't fair. i didid't t kn whahatmy c caswa, so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou i was hit by a car get t tand needed help.oiblele. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehi called the barnes firm. that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is let our injury attorneys know he how much their accident cget the best result possible. now another dispatch from the so-called free state of florida. as ron desantis is at it again. when the florida legislative session begins this week, he will continue his war on teachers teaching, you know, facts about the true history after this country, the good and bad and obsession with one of their favorite boogie men critical race theory. >> what we're going to be doing in this upcoming legislative session, we'll give parents the ability to get legal relief if they're not following stand standards with the respect to state history and government and empowering parents to be involved and make sure parents have a right to inspect the curriculum and not just critical race theory. there isinappropriate content that can be smuggled in by public schools. >> what does ol' ron think is smuggled in? perhaps more copies of toi morrison's books before they get banned or sharing that trump thin skinned lost the 2020 election. not allowed. instead of worrying about feeding his base fake crisis in the schools, he should be handling the one that is ravaging his state now. hospitalizations are going back up. the state is distributing tests but teachers are reporting some are expired. this follows the bombshell admission by desantis last week that the state had about 1 million covid tests expire without being used. how comforting that must be for the teachers of florida. desantis doesn't seem to be concerned as he and his notorious surgeon general are on a crusade about testing making this absurd claim he thought would back up his case. >> think about it, before covid did anyone go out and seek testing to determine if they were sick? >> yes, ron. ya bum. it called preventive care. it what you do in this country to get ahead of a potential illness rather than waiting until your situation is worse. florida offers testing for hiv and stds and maybe colonoscopies and mammograms to detect cancer. his wife is more than one of 300,000 women in the united states that was diagnosed last year. she appears to be on the road to recovery and we wish her well but she only found out about it she says is because of arly screening, aka testing that is why ron desantis, you, are tonight's absolute worst for the second time this brand-new year. up next, the impact rhetoric like this has as we deal with the challenges of covid in unvaccinated america and talk directly to someone that says the vaccine is not for her. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. for her don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. no canceling. flexible cancellation. kayak. search one and done. ♪ ♪making your way in the world today♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪ ♪sure would help a lot ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away? ♪ ♪ ♪ sometimes you want to go ♪ ♪where everybody knows your name ♪ ♪ ♪and they're always glad you came ♪ mission control, we are go for launch. ♪ um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. chase first banking. a debit card for kids, and a set of tools to help them learn good money habits. by creating allowances and assigning chores, they can practice earning every day. with a debit card just for them, they'll learn smart spending firsthand, while you monitor and set account alerts. and using their own chase mobile app, they can set big savings goals. all with no monthly service fee. chase first banking. what does a foster kid need from you? to be brave. to show up. for staying connected. the questions they weren't able to ask. show up for the first day of school, the last day at their current address. for the mornings when everything's wrong. for the manicure that makes everything right, for right now. show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com covid has been a painful and gnawing presence in our lives for nearly two years now. to date more than 300 million people around the globe have had covid and more than 5 million have died. more than 840,000 of those deaths were here in the u.s. sadly it feels like we've exhausted the conversation about the efficacy of the vaccine and ending this nightmare. health experts estimate that about 15% of u.s. adults remain unflinchingly unvaccinated. who are those people? and what will it take to move them? well, you know many of them. they're not all trump supporters. they're your friends, your relatives, even your kids. and these days it feels like we are talking past each other. well, tonight we are going to try something different. instead of talking about them, let's talk with them. joining me now is evelyn anton mcdowell, an educator at a private university who remains unvaccinated and dr. kavita patel our friend and msnbc medical contributor. thank you for being mere. ms. mcdowell, nice to meet you. thank you for coming on. i appreciate you. i think a lot of folks not getting vaccinated are hiding it. people are buying fake vax cards and sneaking. i like the fact that you're just being you and being open about it. let me ask you this question, why are you not vaccinated? >> first of all, joy, thank you for having me on and allowing to tell my side of the story. i am unvaccinated because i actually caught covid twice. i had it once in march of 2020. i had it again in november of 2020. this is all before the vaccination. i was sick the first time and quickly -- not quickly, it took me 65 days to get a negative test, and then when i got it the second time i quickly got over it. within two weeks i tested negative. then i've been tested for antibodies, and so i've been tested twice for antibodies -- actually three times. the first time was november and my antibody levels were very high. and so if the vaccine is meant to get my body ready, to get my immune system ready to fight covid, natural immunity has done that for me. >> let me ask you this question. i've had family and relatives who have said the same thing. doesn't the fact that you caught it a second time prove that your natural immuity didn't keep you from getting covid because you got it again. >> i think i'm correct in saying that the vaccine -- >> but wait, your natural immunity -- go ahead. i'm sorry. >> as we see now, people are getting the vaccine and they're still getting covid so it doesn't stop you from getting covid. >> let me bring dr. kavita patel in here. i hear this a lot. i have natural immunity, therefore, i don't need the take the vaccine. aaron rodgers, kyrie irving, novak djokovic. is that true? i know people that got it twice. doesn't that mean your natural immunity doesn't stop you from getting covid again? >> yeah, joy, first of all, ms. mcdowell, i'm glad you came here because i think more people actually agree with you and have your feeling. here's the problem with natural immunity. it doesn't last at the same levels forever. the antibodies that you have measured, we know now that those antibodies specifically are not as protective against omicron. you are correct, vaccines don't prevent you from getting infected, they are meant to prevent disease. what we know is unfortunately natural immunity from any of the strains before omicron do not protect against omicron, but here's some good news. your natural immunity with vaccine-induced immunity and the t-cells that you mentioned, the t-cells are like a quarterback of a football team. when you vaccinate, you get the t-cells organized and the entire defensive and offensive line organized. it just gives you broader immunity and that creates the best immunity not just against omicron but what we think will be future threats and that's what we're hoping for. so i implore you, beg you to have a conversation, i'll have it with you offline, but just to talk through some of this and why i think it will protect you in the long run and the people you love around you. >> okay. what do i think of that? okay. actually this past christmas i was exposed directly to someone who has covid. so far i have tested negative. and so i'm pretty confident that my body is able to handle covid. like i said, i've had it twice and i've been exposed a third time that i know of directly in my face breathing in my face and i did not get it. >> let me ask you this question but i have to play this for you. it is partly about you and protecting you but it's also about other people. let me play some health care professionals talking about what they have gone through. take a look. >> i'm here to tell you we're tired, we're exhausted, and we're literally on the edge. >> we're feeling that the staff is getting sick. we have over 500 employees throughout baptist health that have come down with covid. >> i've not ever seen a patient here in the icu who's been fully vaccinated with a booster, not one. this doesn't have to happen. >> here's the thing that i think i struggle with a lot, ms. mcdowell. there is you and your own sense that you feel invulnerable to it, but there are health care workers who are begging people like yourself to get vaccinated because what they are seeing is that the vast majority of the people who are coming to the e.r., who are clogging up the health care system, who are making it impossible for somebody with a stroke or a heart attack to be able to get in because all the patients are covid, it is ten times more likely if you are unvaccinated that you're going to ending up in the e.r. if you get it. people who are unvaccinated are literally making our health system shut down. are you concerned that you could -- even if you can survive it, that you might give it to somebody who can't survive it, who might end up in the e.r. or that you might end up in the e.r. and make it impossible for these poor health care workers to do their jobs? they're also begging because they're suffering too. does that move you at all? >> oh, absolutely. i am not against vaccination. and had i not had covid twice, maybe -- i'm sure i probably would have taken the vaccine. everybody in my family is vaccinated, fully vaccinated, and that person that was -- that had covid that was in my family, they were fully vaccinated. >> but i mean aren't you worried about the health care system? are you worried about the doctors. >> i am, i am, of course. i'm not worried about it for me. i'm pretty sure they're not going to see me there. i had it twice and i beat it. >> yeah. >> so i don't see -- i'm not worried about me, but i am worried about other people not being protected. i'm protected. my body has been protected naturally. >> we are out of time. i hope that you will getting between dr. patel and talk offline. we need to have more of these conversations. >> thank you, joy, for having me. >> thank you. evelyn anton mcdowell and dr. patel, that's tonight's "reidout." tonight on "all in" -- >> i spoke with him that day after, i think after. i don't know if i spoke with him in the morning or not. i just don't know. >> he's a material witness with nothing to hide. >> i've got nothing to hide. i've been straightforward all