upon or face charges. >> they brought an indictment against one of the people whoey r fused to comply. >> taking credit for a law that no republicans voted for and my interview with the artist j.r. over his documentary, "paper & glue." "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes, republican congressman devin nunes of california is leaving his job. the reason he's leaving, though, tells you a lot about the trajectory of the modern republican party. see, the old model of governance was you stuck it out so you could wield the power of the state. you could wield that power for all kinds of purpose, good, evil and everything in between. the it was yielding the service of some governing agenda and why people got into politics and that was less and less the case. congressman nunes who joined as a 29-year-old and is currently serving his tenth term is retiring to run donald trump's new grift. even as far as start-ups go is particularly questionable. it's supposed to be a social media company, but in typical trump fashion, more like a half-baked idea with his name on it, also in typical trump fashion the company is already being investigated by federal regulator which is is truly an incredible record to get your first sec investigation before you ever have a product. that's where devin nunes is going, to become a professional troll, as they put it in "new york" magazine, unofficial trump prop gandist, devin nunes makes it official. he's a trump sycophant who was chair of the house intelligence committee back in 2017, made that bizarre mid evaluate night trip to the white house to warn the trump administration about the so-called unmasking of trump campaign officials who were being surveilled by intelligence agencies for their ties to foreign governments or, you know, you may remember him as the right-wing troll who seuss journalists and also wanted to sue twitter, the company over, like a few parody accounts like devin nunes' mom and devin nunes cow. the cow account was not actually run by a cow of devin nunes. here's the thing, nunes wasn't always like this. he was a normal republican and represented a conservative district and had very conservative politics. did the normal dance of governance and worked his way up to the chair of the house intelligence committee. back then, nunes seemed less interested in the that the ricks of politics. he once referred to the tea party government shutdown as lemmings with suicide vests, but most revealing, though, listen to this is a quote, a 2015 interview with journalist ryan lizzo who nunes would later sue over different reporting. listen to what he had to say, quote. i used to spend 90% of my constituent response time on people who would call or send an email or letter and said i really like this bill and they believed in it because they heard about it through one of the groups they belonged to and it was based on lgsz. chemtrails are airplanes poisoning me and that has essentially flipped on its head. it's dramatically changed politics and politicians and what they're doing. yeah. no kidding, dude. it's a remarkably prescient comment from 2015 nunes just months before donald trump would essentially take over the party and nunes would eventually go full-on maga chemtrail friendly. there is something profoundly revealing about devin nunes wanting to quit and become a professional troll. he's worked his way up. he started young and he's young now for someone who is in his position. he was chair of house intelligence and while redistricting in california means his seat could potentially be in jeopardy, worried to stick it out than be re-elected he'd be well positioned to take over the house ways and means committee next term. that's it republicans win the house which many expect they will. arguably, ways and means committee chair is the second most powerful position of the house next to speaker and an enormously consequential job. it does all of the tax legislation. he gets to control how trillions of dollars of federal money is directed and back in the day, ways and means chairs would go on to be president like james polk and fillmore, you already knew that, didn't you? or larger than life political figures like dan rost incow ski, charlie rangel and these were titans and it's basically an end goal for a long line of legislators who wanted to re-shape the federal government in their own ideological image or run a big patronage operation where they got to give out the goodies to various interest groups, but again, even the old-fashioned soft corruption which is as old as politics, even that isn't really so enticing to the contemporary republican party anymore. increasingly, what they want in their heart, they want to be essentially professional trolls, talking heads, podcasters, content creators. which again, don't get me wrong, nothing -- i've got nothing against content creators and taking heads, but you're in government. they're much more concerned with posting on twitter and writing legislation and amendments. it came from an unlikely source last night and take a listen to dan crenshaw during an event in texas. >> there are two types of members of congress, there's performance artists and legislators. the performance artists are the ones that get all of the attention. the ones you think are more conservative because they know how to say slogans real well. they know how to recite the lines that our voters want to hear. we have grifters in our midst and not here, in this room, i mean in the conservative movement. lie after lie after lie. >> and to be clear, that point, while incredibly astute, is more than a little hypocritical coming from congressman crenshaw who has done a fair share of his own partisan trolling and who loves performance enough to release an ad like this last year ahead of the georgia runoff elections. >> what's our situation on the ground? >> two patriots down there, senator layoff ler and senator purdue. >> they just need a little backup. >> last question. who do you want to bring? >> bring everyone. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> by the way, that video ends with crenshaw landing on top of an antifa truck and pretending to punch the windshield out. he may be less than a reliable narrator about who is serious and who is not, fundamentally about his republican colleagues is spot on. a lot of them are not interested in the job they have. the act of governing, of being a representative of people in the government and those are republicans who do care about that are a dying breed. they're leaving. the republican legislators like senator roy blount of missouri and kinzinger of illinois, again, they're both on their way out because it is clear there's just no will left in their party for the actual stuff of legislating. i have to say, it bears repeating, i think those men's politics are bad, they caused a lot of damage. a lot of bad votes and a lot of bad bills and i'm not endorsing what they were doing or what they stand for, but what i'm saying is they were doing something legibly government-related in some sense. something that is more in line with what governing is or isn't than anything that this new current wave of republicans are doing which is why in a new piece in the atlantic, tim questions if there's any place in the congress for peter meier. meier voted to certify the results of the 2020 election and for donald trump's second impeachment and seems at least nominally committed to actual governance. as alberta note, meier does not believe he is standing alone against republican trolls like marjorie taylor greene, he thinks there are more like him, rational, pragmatic and disgusted than they are like gosar, there's no need to engage in guerilla tactics and they can reason and debate like adults and take the high road and play the long gain. all evidence would point to meier's optimism bordering dangerously close to naivety, but for the sake of our democracy i hope he's right. tim alberta wrote that piece on peter meier and he joins me now. >> i was struck by this profile because i do think there is a throwback situation, and i want to in some ways take this out of the realm of ideology because i don't think this what people stand for and believe in is really what we're talking about here. it seems to me there's just an approach to the job, to the con sengz of what it means to be a member of congress, that is being sort of stoked by gates and boebert and marjorie taylor greene that just are fundamentally to what meier look going and doing the job of a republican member of congress. >> chris, i don't know how much time you have, but we could have a long conversation on that subject. i've written a lot about it. listen, everything that you said there is right. i distinctly remember sitting with paul ryan a couple of weeks after he retired from congress, and this was in wisconsin in his hometown. he had sort of just begun to process the last few years with trump's takeover and whatever you think of paul ryan's politics, and whatever you think of his legislative record over the years and his proposals on medicaid reform and all these things, paul ryan spent 20 years in congress climbing the traditional way of writing policy, working on committees, accumulating power the way that one was expected to in congress. rarely seen on cable news or doing sort of the talk tale circuit and wasn't a social media guy and gained his influence in congress by committing and became ways and means chairman and eventually became speaker, of course, and when we were talking about this, he took an unsolicited detour at some point and started ranting about matt gaetz by name and others and talking about how basically the entertainer complex and our politics had been so dominant and how this was going to get much, much worse before it got better and so when you placed a guy like a peter meier in the context of all of that, he is, in many ways the antithesis of this. he's a smart and earnest guy who thought that when he was elected to congress that he would be in the majority and that the -- some of the clowns in his freshman class like marjorie tailer greene that he would be the vocal majority and instead he finds himself in the minority that actually came to congress to legislate. >> we are watching this play out with boebert, marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz and gosar. mccarthy is scared to cross them the way he's scared to cross trump and it means, ashgs the next class of freshmen members of congress there will be 20 like them. if the midterms go the way we think they might and particularly with redistricting, where that will be what it means increasingly to be a young, freshman member of the republican house caucus. >> yeah. look, and i think some of this obviously stems from a fundamental problem and you've been flicking at it here is when congress no longer legislates in a meaningful way and certainly when congress ceases to legislate in a bipartisan way, then really all that is left for a minority party is to entertain and is to obstruct and really if you think about the ways in which a party relates to or earns proximity to relevancy and to influence, and there could be a case made that even up until recently at least what the republican party in the obama years was doing. again, not at the fringe e but in the mainstream, its relevancy was earned by knockdown, drag-out fights over health care, over immigration, over taxation, right? at least they were policy fights and what you see now increasingly is that that influence, that relevancy is gained not through fighting on any of the approximately see, and we've seen almost none of that in the early days of the biden administration and it is all on the lowest common denominator culture war issues and a lot of it isn't real culture war outrage and it's phony manufactured and meant to raise money and rile up the base and it's very effective. >> tim alberta, who is a wonderful chronicler of this situation, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> sure. mark meadows finds himself in a wee bit of a pickle. his big book tour money grab after he revealed the former president tested positive for covid, well before he knew, a detail that infuriated donald trump, and today mark meadows offered something of an olive ranch to the former president, refusing to testify before the january 6th committee, but is meadows willing to face contempt charges to get in trump's good graces? new ultimatum from the house after this. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ my daughter has type 2 diabetes and lately i've seen this change in her. once-weekly trulicity is proven to help lower a1c. it lowers blood sugar from the first dose. and you could lose up to ten pounds. trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. it isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. it's not approved for use in children. don't take trulicity if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, changes in vision, or diabetic retinopathy. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. taking trulicity with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. side effects include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea, which can lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. ask your doctor about once-weekly trulicity. - san francisco can have criminal justice reform and public safety. but district attorney chesa boudin is failing on both. - the safety of san francisco is dependent upon chesa being recalled as soon as possible. - i didn't support the newsom recall but this is different. - chesa takes a very radical perspective and approach to criminal justice reform, which is having a negative impact on communities of color. - i never in a million years thought that my son, let alone any six-year-old, would be gunned down in the streets of san francisco and not get any justice. - chesa's failure has resulted in increase in crime against asian americans. - the da's office is in complete turmoil at this point. - for chesa boudin to intervene in so many cases is both bad management and dangerous for the city of san francisco. - we are for criminal justice reform. chesa's not it. recall chesa boudin now. so why comply in honestly, at this point if it's totally fake, this is just a show trial, which it is, then why would the rest of us have any kind of obligation to play along with it, honestly? >> we shouldn't, but congress has the power to issue criminal content. normally those don't go anywhere on such charades as this, but the department of justice is fully in line and they've brought one criminal indictment against one of the people that refused to comply. >> that was john eastman, the guy who wrote up the infamous coup member on how former president mike pence could steal the election from donald trump and railroad the american people's ability to choose their own leader, and that's him grudgingly telling tucker carlson with, well, he has to comply with the subpoena. that's not the case with mark meadows who today announced he basically changed his mind and he will not comply with the committee investigating january 6th and appear in a deposition tomorrow. that flip-flop might have something to do with the ex-president's reported fury over meadows' new book surrounding trump's coronavirus diagnosis. back in october, trump had nothing, but good things to say about meadows' book on his blog telling followers to pre-order your copy now saying it would make an incredible christmas gift, and that mark and his wife are great people. that's nice. this is still up now on the internet, but over the weekend the daily beast reported that trump fumed over how meadows was "f-ing" stupid and how his displeasure toward meadows was volcanic. maggie haverman is reporting that he hates meadows' book and feels betrayed by him. wish you could take that blurb back, now he'll have to choose between appeasing his former boss and appeasing an order, and it will go forward as planned if indeed mr. meadows refuses to appear the select committee will have no choice, but to contempt proceedings. she has been following the criminal charges committee and the white house bureau chief of the washington post who helped report on the three-part series on the events surrounding the january 6th attack and they both join me now. i have to say, let me start with you, philip, this entire dynamic is a headscratcher. meadows writes a book with a startling and shocking revelation that the positive tested positive for covid six days before announcing it and spent six days circulating patient, and that he was patient zero for the white house cluster and was that a debate and what did you think was going to happen, buddy? and trump blurbs it and now they're angry about it and how does this come about? >> chris, that's not even the worst of it because meadows in his book also reports about trump's basically lack of strength, has physical condition when he had covid and how he was in the hospital in a t-shirt with his hair mess said up and his face a peculiar hue and didn't have the energy to get out of bed and that was not the image that trump wants anybody working for him projecting to the public and that's what meadows wrote in his book and it has infuriated the former president as you might imagine and meadows is trying to get back in trump's good graces by refusing to cooperate with the january 6th commit. i'm not sure that's going to work with trump. >> meadows gets on the wrong side and changes his mind about cooperation. katie, i want to play you meadows giving his own justification and sort of ask what the ramifications could be given as he's been said they have one criminal referral. take a listen. do we have that? maybe not? all right. meadows -- >> we found that in spite of our cooperation and sharing documents with them they had issued unbeknownst to us and without even awe courtesy call issued a subpoena to third-party carrier trying to get information courtesy call issued a subpoena to third-party carrier trying to get information and so at this point we feel it is best to honor the executive privilege and it looks like the courts will have to weigh in on this. >> the executive privilege article -- argument, katie seems tougher when you have just written a book about your inside deliberations with the president. >> absolutely, yes, that's true. and also when former officials of the trump administration have spoken about issues that the committee wants to speak to you about does make it tricky. by voting to hold him in criminal contempt, if the house is successful and the justice department does bring that before a grand jury, mark meadows could face steep fines and could face jail time and it doesn't mean they'll have to give over any information, so he could be punished and he would still not have to speak to the committee, and if they hold him in civil contempt, that would be a little bit different, generally speaking, if the court finds you are in civil content the punitive measures do not stop until you comply and it's almost like he's making the calculation be held in criminal contempt and perhaps face jail time and fine, but not to have to give over information. >> we know steve bannon's trial which he's now been indicted for criminal contempt and there is time and the delay is in mind for the people with these. there's news about someone else in the circle which is fascinating who strikes me as an interesting player in all of this because he's not really a trump guy and he's much more of a pence guy, that he's cooperating with the house committee and investigating in the january 6th riot and that seems to be an interesting and fruitful lead for the committee. >> it southeasternly would be. he would fully the people on january sixth and the days leading up to the 6th, it was privy to what was in favor of the coup effectively and he can pinpoint for the committee who was pushing which buttons in and around the president to try to create the events of january 6th and one note on that, maggie haberman of "the new york times," that although he's cooperating with the committee is also coordinating his responses with the trump team. so any documents these providing to the committee he's intending to let the trump team know ahead of time and coordinate with them. so it's not clear whether schwartz's cooperation will be. >> they've got bannon. the committee is talking about a possible contempt citation for jeffrey clark. the possibility that hangs over this with mark meadows and those would be slightly trickier cases for the department of justice just on the facts and the law than the bannon case which was the most clear cut of the group, it seems. >> absolutely because bannon, he was not working at the white house at the time, so even though the question of whether or not you could hold somebody in contempt despite their claims of executive privilege, and the private citizen that was unsettled and it did seem to weigh against bannon. mark immediate owes, hoo was the white house chief of sta of and he can say this is covered by executive privilege and i cannot speak to these questions. keep in mind, he could come before the committee and hear their questions and explain why he doesn't feel comfortable handling certain inquiries and that doesn't seem like much. >> it seems like the other thing you can always do according to the constitution is you invoke your right against self-incrimination which appears that it's what clark plans on doing. that in and of itself is notable when people do that so we will keep monitoring that, as well. katie and philip, thank you both. >> thank you. coming up, republicans railed against the pandemic relief bill earlier this summer passing with not a single republican vote. now a funny thing is happening. they're trying to take credit for it. that's next. ♪ move your student loan debt to sofi— you could save with low rates and no 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this is how it feels to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a comprehensive wealth plan with tax-smart investing strategies designed to help you keep more of what you earn. and set aside more for things like healthcare, or whatever comes down the road. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity. that $1.9 trillion american rescue plan that president biden signed into law in march was the first giant legislative achievement of his administration came very early on and now we're feeling the effects of it across the country as that money goes to help all sorts of folks in all kind of places. what was truly as to inishing while every single republican voted against the legislation, lots of them are trying to take credit for the good things in it, something president biden enjoyed pointing out back in may. >> even my republican friends in congress, not a single one of them voted for the rescue plan. i'm not going to embarrass any one of them, but i have here a list. [ laughter ] [ applause ] >> of how back in their districts they're bragging about the rescue plan. >> there's mississippi republican senator roger wicker who, quote, independent restaurant operators won $28.8 billion worth of target relief despite voting against the bill. ron desantis signed florida's largest budget ever, and this is very reach, part of the reason we're here is because we've had good stewarts in the legislature who have spent conservatively and responsibly and florida has schools open, business open and people having the right to work. he declined to mention the bill was boosted with $10.2 billion in federal covid relief money. last month, arizona's republican governor doug ducey announced he was investing on to expand high-speed broadband in the speed. if you read into the second press release, you'd read, quote, funding comes from the act. >> the best one yet, you have to give it to him, it came from mike dewine. look at this tweet, while democrats work to defund the police, we're investing $250 million in our law enforcement and first responders. the point he reiterated during a press conference. >> this is clearly not the time to defund the police. this is time to fund the police and to fund them in a new and creative way. >> you can probably guess where this is going by now. according to the governor's own press release, the new and creative way he is funding the police is by using ohio got from the american rescue plan. you imagine how shameless you have to be to not only take credit for funding that you and your party did everything to prevent, but to go one step further and attack the party, and the democrats that actually got ohio that money you are taking credit for. well done, governor mike dewine. s to help our family's special needs... hey, graduation selfie! well done! and voya stays by our side, keeping us on track for retirement... ...giving us confidence in our future... ...and in kevin's. you ready for your first day on the job? 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>> maybe? >> then what happens if you -- if every american has one test. how much does that cost and then what happens after that? >> all i know is that other countries seem to be making them available in greater quantities for less mono pep. >> well, i think we share the same objective which is to make them less expensive and more accessible. >> i do not think sending every american a rapid test, we should send ten tests every month. in singapore the government has sent rapid tests to every household, and canada is sending them to businesses and organizations. today in the u.s. there are 70,000 new coronavirus cases. the if we want to continue gathering, the more we can test, the more to control the spread of the virus and get back to normal. sarah cliff is an investigative reporter for "the new york times" focused on medicare policy, and she wrote about the reimbursement program in a piece called in biden's plan for free rapid tests, leg work will be required. first, let's start with the cost of the tests here because this is a thing that you report on as well as anyone in america which is why american healthcare in its many different facets cost more than other places and the rapid tests seem to be another example. why is that? >> yeah upon this is pretty emblem theaic of the american aelt care system and it boils down to different reasons and we've not seen either of the administrations and they prioritize rapid testing. they tended to favor pcr tefrting and it comes with a longer turnaround time because as we move the coronavirus restricts. you just haven't seen the fbi, ask there hasn't been been major governing yet and we're not that interested in these tests and it's kind of been left to the private market and the american health care system when it gets left to the private market test makers can charge whatever they want. we see these tests costing upward of $30 at the drug store and that's much, much more expensive than europe where it is one euro. >> part of it is a competition issue, too. it seems the fda has approved a few of these. in other places there are more folks in the market. so even the market competition is doing a better job than driving the cost down than in the u.s. where it's not like there's a ton of different ones. i think there are basic two that i've come across. >> yeah. there really is only a handful and we should be seeing it coming out to market soon and it's a reluctance and slowness to approving the tests in the united states. the tests that are not accurate and that will prove false positives and false negatives and there is a case with where we are in the pandemic right now that having wide spread testing is going to catch people when they're infectious and these antigen tests which are generally best for is going to be a real game changer and it's been that lack of investment like you were saying, chris, in the uk, the government is buying lots and lots of these tests because anyone can go on to this website and get seven sent to their home and it's harder to get approved by the fda, and it's just a less appealing place to come and sell the covid test and that means for the people who have gotten approved that they can charge higher prices because they're facing less competition in the market. >> it's funny you say that, and there's been a stigma in the beginning because there's specificity which is the term is lower than pcr tests and they're less accurate, but they are still pretty accurate and as a tool, i mean, people are going back to work and schools all of the time like there is a test that pops up and you have to test everyone in the household and we've been using them a ton and when we have the dollars and the resources to pay these fairly high prices for the tests and there are all kind of situations particularly with kids in school where if a case pops up in a circle or along a chain of people you've been with, the first thing you want to do is test. you also want to do it prophylactically before gathering with people like we did at thanksgiving which is seems like those are obvious means of controlling spread. >> yeah. no, i agree with you. i have a preschooler. he's become very accustomed to when we call the tickle test. it sounds like your family has, and i look at cvs, so i stock up when i can and luckily i have the financial means to do that, but they're expensive. the two-pack was of the abbott test are going for about $25 and you can find them for $14 in some places and it seems like they're emblematic where folks in europe can get these freely, easily, and they can get them through the government whereas we're left to the our open open devices and the thakt that these would be sxhrps this you will continue to be leg work for consumers to get a quo,en quote, free covid tests. >> i find that a really enjoyable way to spend time so that's a nice benefit here that people won't get to do that. i do think the white house gotten -- look, they're trying to do what they can within the system and they've gotten severe pushback on the psaki exchange and her saying today our focus is on ensuring everyone in america has access to free testing whether it's doctor's office, pharmacy, community testing site we are continuing to scale up our testing so anyone who wants a test can get a test. sarah cliff, as always, thank you. >> thanks. don't go anywhere, my interview with j.r., whose installations are part of a new documentary that airs this friday on msnbc joins me live in studio. stick around. wow... that's so nice! is that a photo of tepechitlan? 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take a photo of me. boom, i take that photo -- everybody look at it and say, you had a gun? you were there. it was my camera. that's your camera. that's crazy. the whole day of taking photos. ♪♪ >> we didn't know what to do with it. we were all over the building. we covered the builds. let's just do it. >> that clip comes from j.r.'s new documentary "paper & glue," whichlu has its premiere on msn. it reflects from the projects to the art scene. and it delves into his most compelling work, in rio, the u.s./mexico border and in a california supermax prison. throughout the documentary, in j.r.'s outwork, a purpose, a theme, of bringing humanity of people who are often overlooked. j.r., the artist and director of "paper & glue" joins me now. m glad to have you here. >> thank you. >> i enjoyed this movie and the creation. first with a camera. >> yeah. >> how did you learn technique? what was the process that you improved from this found object you had? you were doing graffiti and had the gsense. how did you learn to use the device? >> i don't think i learned. if someone could give me a course, i would love it. i never really figured it out. sometimes it looked like an image that seemss good to me. you know, i don't -- i was not using light. i didn't understand the depths of field or none of that. i just wanted to share something and portraits and pasting them was the main thing. you know, the paste up would cover, you know, the wrong side of the image if it was not well-taken. >> it's big and rough in your face, that has its own visual sensation.wn >> exactly. i don't do commercial photography. it was not underexposed or overexposed. the people love it. good. and remember, i shared all of my photograph in the street. if you're walking in the street, you paint, there's no previouscy. i shared everything. if it looked like shit, people would tell you. >> i like pasting, too. it's the oldest way of posting something. growing up in new york city, it was construction sites, when there was a show in town, a new album coming out. this visual field -- you don't see it as much anymore. but there's something incredibly distinct about the way that looks. >> yeah. definitely. also, the one thing you need to know, i've been pasting 20 years, nobody really looks at you. you look like nobody out there.o and so, that was my biggest -- i was just in the street, and i would be pasting. you had a spray can, someone's going to come up to you. >> pasting, oh, let him do the job, you know? i could just go in the middle of the day, at rush hour, and paste in front of anybody. and people would not suspect this was not legal. >> this image that we have behind us, one of the projects in the documentaries, in rio, where you go and take people's portraits and put them up. and i mean, obviously, you see from one of the most striking things about rio, the neighborhoods have this kind of height differential, where the rich neighborhoodsia are and th poor neighborhoods are, up high. >> exactly. in here, it's all faces of woman on this community. and it's in a neighborhood, actually the first slum of brazil. it's in rio. when people from the city saw there was regular people, and womans, that was 80% of the currency. people know the drug dealing is a tiny representative there. but that's the only one you hear about in the media. >> if you are in a neighborhood in rio that's affluent, that's a forbidden zone. don't go up there. it might as well be another planet. >> completely. but the truth is, when this happened and everybody could see the eyes on the hill, the woman came down the hill and they nd interviewed them because they couldn't go uprv there. and then, it was their story. what they wanted to share. how they wanted to represent their own community. >> i found the work you did in this supermax president in california really beautiful and inspiring. i want to play a bit from it. you did a very cool project. you can see up there. this is one of the incarcerated folks talking about it. listen. >> i was raised here. i never not you would do something that you can't believe. we're going to be able to attain those dreams. people want to be this big. from way up there.ea you know what i mean? we can see it. we want to be that big from way up there. and it doesn't take much. just a little hope, a little effort, and we got it. with some paper. >> some paper. >> you went into this prison. and you took people's portraits. how did the project evolve? >> look, there was -- the portraits right behind you, from inmates, incarcerated when they were kids and victims from, you know, the violence from, you know, people incarcerated or other prisons and guards. there's a free app. it's called r.j. murals. and you can listen to the stories. you click and you hear the story. suddenly, the own families started listening to their story. i left them as long as they want to talk. some of the stories are 30, 40 minutes. they reconnected with the families. and the guards listened and started to see them as human. and the warden was saying, why are those guys still here. everyone in this image, in a supermax prison number four, got moved to level three within the next six months. and one side of them got freed because they reshowed their case. it shows the power of art within a supermax prison goes a very long way because no one has ever had that access to actually -- because of art, listen to the other. >> there's a project that you did, that mightct be something that people are familiar with, very iconic image, the u.s./mexico border. i love. and when i saw it, it just seemed so -- it's such an amazing combination of, it's so striking. it's both whimsical and comical almost. but carries something deep in it. and the difference in size between this child and the child glaring down -- who is that child on the wall? >> he lives in the house that you see right there behind. i met him there because i was asking the people, you know, who was that land there? and i met this family. i didn't pay attention to the kid at first. and then -- >> he's on the mexican side. >> on the mexican side. and i realized, wait, wait. he's a year-old kid. he's looking at the wall every day because he live there's. is this a wall for him? is that a separation wall? is that a fence? he's a kid. just like any wall. he is the one i should paste there. what does a kid have to do with politics? he's there and is living in front of the fence. his mom was excited. you know, his parents and the grandparents and everybody there. i installed it. it was legal. we dig the ground and build a scaffolding, two-times the size of the wall. we pasted him. the attention of the helicopters and everybody. and strange enough, no one came and arrest us. i left it there. i rented the scaffolding. and people would take photos. and people would see each other through the w fence. what happened was incredible, people would pass the phones to the fence to another family, so they can take a photo of them and vice versa. the border patrol should have arrested every one of them, they didn't. none of them. and i was following that on social media and i thought, how is people not getting arrested? it means that the border patrol is looking from a distance and saying, let it be. it's art. >> it's a fantastic piece of work. it's wonderful to have you here. "paper & glue" this friday, on 10:00 p.m. on msnbc. "rachel maddow show" starts right now. good ghevening, rachel. >> that was excellent. thank you for joining us this hour. happy to have you here.yo in april 1968, in memphis, tennessee, the reverend, dr. martin luther king jr. was assassinated. the man who killed him was james earl ray, seen here in handcuffs. james earl ray was a rabid segregationist. he was a real racist. he was kicked out of the army in the late '40s. he was at of prison for years. he escaped from prison in