>> they offered rittenhouse an internship, it's great. it's not jail time but it would be nice if you get some kind of punishment. >> the clothing brand old navy launched a virtual santa boot camp to train mall santas on how to deal with outrage gift requests like gas. >> those are some of the things we'll be talking about on this tuesday, november 23rd, also ahead in the murder trial of the men who chased down and killed ahmaud arbery, we heard some dehumanizing language from one of the defense lawyers in the closing arguments earlier, simply staggering. we'll play for you, the comments that caused ahmaud's mother to leave the courtroom. >> reverend al sharpton is with us for that and along with jonathan lemire and former u.s. senator at nbc news, claire mccaskill joins us this morning. great to have you all. we begin with the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack issuing another new round of subpoenas. five more allies of former president trump who were directly involved with the planning of the rally took place before the insurrection have been asked to provide testimonies and documents, they include roger stone, right wing conspiracy theorist, alex jones. stone was pardoned by former president trump for crimes tied to a congressional probe of trump's 2016 campaign. he appeared at multiple events in the days leading up to the capitol attack. he led a march to the capitol from the ellipse on saturday january 6th but did not end up doing so. in a statement last night stone says in part this. i have said time and time again i had no advance knowledge of the events that took place after the capitol that day. after the subpoena is served and my council reviews the requests, i will make my determination as to how i proceed. jones reportedly helped organize and rally at the ellipse. attorney for jones have yet to decide on his next steps. meanwhile today is also the deadline for several former trump allies to turn over documents to the house select committee. former trump trump adviser and kaley mcenany and stephen miller are previously subpoenaed. willie, as for the people who attacked the capitol that day, nbc 4 washington investigated scott mcfarland who's been following every twist and turn in this case posted this video that appears to show what happened when police tried to protect a closing door at the united states capitol on january 6th. take a look. >> so joe, what you can see is they're trying to get that door to close as resistance goes backup zp you will see chairs and garbage cans and other projectiles being thrown. >> it's crazy so-called conservatives would look at that and call those people scum. former conservatives would say this is a way that radicals behave and anarchists behave. this is the way that donald trump supporters, you see the trump's flags and throwing trash at police officers and throwing garbage cans at police officers. i got to say it is -- >> they're there for donald trump. >> i see the chaos is important. i look at the chaos here at the cop toll. you have conservatives attacking what's going on in portland. the chaos that's there and up and down the west coast. they defend this. well, they don't speak out against this. it's grotesque what these people do. >> it's beyond grotesque and rev, as you watch this video let's remember this is the least of what happened to police officers here. we can show the officers here, officers getting beat at the front steps of the united states america and images sered in america's minds forever. officer brian sicknick died later of course. as this trial goes on as the select committee gets more and more information and more documents, we are going to see again just the extent of how ugly and violent this was on january 6th. >> and what's so appalling is when you see this and other incidents, some that led to death as you say, you really must ask yourself why are republicans including the leadership in the house resisting the investigation. it would seem to me the more you see and the more you get to the bottom of who's involved in this and instigated this and who had prior information. to see all of this can only mean you are not really who you say you are patriotic americans are the opposite of who you are. you want to get to the bottom of this if you believe in this country. >> claire, it's sickening to hear my former party talk about law and order and defending the blue and supporting the blue. they don't support the blue when it's on capitol hill. in fact they batter them with american flags and beating many of them into inches of life and they would later fear for their very lives and i am sorry, if this is happening at the cap doll or every night at portland when they're attacking federal buildings and attacking police officers and interesting just a couple of days ago, there was a mob that cornered police officers inside a garage and were throwing things in portland oregon which the chaos and madness there continues. they don't understand it. i don't think i am wrong here. i think most americans are like me, they're appalled and disgusted by the extremist on the right who were brutalizing police officers and also by the republican politicians who are trying to cover up just as they are appalled and disgusted by people attacking and battering police officers in garages in portland and let this who want to pretend that's okay. i am not drawing more equivalencies. i want to let republicans know, that you are covering this type of behavior and you are turning people on your side. >> the republicans have lost on this order because of the irrational connect they have done on what happened on january 6th. the interesting thing is we have all these evidence, video evidence, pictures are very powerful things. and the fascinating thing is the way you overcome those pictures is by presenting a defense. and what the republicans are doing is hiding. they are hoping it will go away. if they had a defense, if roger stone or steve bannon or steven miller or any of these yahoos actually had a coach of defense. they would wasn't to show the facts but they are hiding from the facts. that's something i think the american people why they may not think of it in those terms everyday while this goes on. they're going to realized if there are no evidence of wrong doing, why are these people not cooperating. >> americans don't like chaos. that's another reason why. you look at the kyle rittenhouse verdict. you follow the thinking of david french, yes, he was not guilty. the yur ri found him not guilty. the prosecution could not prove its case. this guy is no hero. the people on the far right that are trying to turn him into a hero, they're not doing the country a favor, they're not doing whatever the party they belong to a favor. they're not doing their second amendment rights as as favor. this guy is no hero. >> along the sign of this conversation, an indiana man charged carrying a loaded firearm suggested to investigators that he was targeting house speaker nancy pelosi, according to politico, 56 years old mark maza is the latest half a dozen january 6th defendants charged. he thought he and pelosi would hit it off adding that he had found her "you would be here for another reason." >> jonathan lemire, this is a politico story. here we have again on january the 6th, we have another person who was there with a gun proving what liars those republican apologists said they looked like a bunch of tourists. if he found nancy pelosi, they would be talking to her something else completely different. this whole idea of people going after mike pence that it was like a football cheer or something and people screaming nancy, where are you, no, it was clear this was not a group of tourists. there were people inside this group were mobs and rioters wanted to find and kill nancy pelosi and wanted to find and kill the sitting vice president of the united states. >> there is a consistent effort in the now ten months since january 6th by many in the republican leadership to down play this event. we have seen certain primetime hosts on fox news promote a documentary series about this. cases like this, this american had a gun and was thinking about speaker pelosi. some of the most harrowing images of that day, not just the abuse of police outside which we have shown with flags and one officer tased with his own weapon and thought he would be killed. we had ocasio-cortez how she was hiding in the bathroom and talking to investigators afterwards, one told me if there were a couple of wrong turns by congressmen or women or a lack of bad luck or if there was not some heroism, we may have had public execution of members of congress, we should not lose sight of that. that's why the select committee is spending so much time trying to figure it out. also those who helped inspired with rhetoric. >> not only do republicans not want to look into what happened that day. during a plea hearing for the man photographed, a federal judge says vice president al gore had better standing to challenge the election. he lost but was quote "a man of what happened to him," he accepted it and walked away. the judge went onto say the capitol riot is what concerns me, sir, is that you were gumable enough to come to washington, d.c. from florida based on a lie and the person who inspired you to do what you do is still gullible enough to do this again. >> and former prosecutor claire mckaskill, that's the thing that the judge is looking at. that's the thing that concerns the state. he's gullible enough, he can do it again. that speaks for a lot of people that we have seen in these images that's been brutalizing police officers. these police officers thinking they'll never see their children again and kicked and prodded and having their heads smashed indoors. they were stupid enough, they were gullible enough to believe lies from donald trump and this federal judge says for good reasons. i am afraid you are gullible enough to do it again. >> hundreds of people have been charged. we now know people carried loaded guns looking for members of congress in that mob. i think what's really hurting right now in terms of people who agree with us that this kind of unrest and lawlessness is unacceptable in america is accountability peace for the people who caused it and where do the money come from? that's where the january 6th committee is trying to do. it's really simple what the judge says. somebody cause this to happen and the big lie is taking roots. it's fundamental of who they are and that's a huge problem for the party eventually. maybe not in the midterms but before it all settles down in the books of history. this will be a black chapter for the republican party. >> the message to trump's supporters and people across america is that donald trump tells them to do something they do it and they pay. they go directly -- >> they pay. he's still out there. >> he's still sitting at mar-a-lago. he does not care about you at all. >> he's hanging out with his billionaire friends and golfing and living the life of luxury and all of these gullible americans who believe his lies are the ones who's having to higher lawyers and pay for lawyers. >> lives ruined. >> go to jail and have their lives ruined all because this billionaire was not man enough to accept the fact that he lost. >> still ahead on "morning joe," we are learning new details o f the tragic crash at a holiday parade in wisconsin over the weekend. the man who police say was behind the wheel. plus, a defense attorney in the trial of three men accused in the killing of ahmaud arbery prompts outrage for remarks she made. northern california, seeing a spike in large scale of smash and grab robberies. what police have saying this series of thefts targeting high-end retail. it's happening up and down the west coast. the big thing that's happening is the police -- >> are they on their heels? >> ask people who live in the west coast and san francisco and portland and seattle and up and down the coast. this is madness. it's out of control and it has been this way for a few years. >> we'll talk about it. straight ahead, you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. u are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back ♪ ♪ ♪ (sha bop sha bop) ♪ ♪ are the stars out tonight? 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nobody ever talked about my unmanicured dirty toenails. again, the insanity of this all is an attempt to be dehumanized a dead black man who was shot for being in the wrong neighborhood. >> clearly it's an attempt to dehumanize him or to make him almost like an animal. a long, uncleaned toenails is to play upon what they hope to be some of the racial photos or pictures of perception in their minds of some of the jurors of 11-1 white. i think it's disgusting. what i feel for is the mother and father that's listening to this. i hope to join them before the verdict comes in. now you know why they need pastors like me coming in, just sitting there looking at the killer of your son is hard enough but to have the humilation like this lady and somebody asking you why you need a pastor. the h humiliation of this is da. it was unpardonable in my opinion. >> rev, you are back down to brunswick a little later today. what's the sense of the family and people watching the case and the sense of the prosecutors right down there how this may shake out? it looks based on the facts clear cut but you talked about the jury 11-1, 11 white jurors and we know where the venue is and we know the defense team may thought this is a friendly venue. how is it looking? >> people are hoping, his mother was on "politics nation" over the weekend, she thinks she has optimism. i said in so many courtrooms they're going to win but i am cautious about it. the defense language throughout this trial had been so insulting that there is an anger there. we hope justice comes about. clearly, i think it's irresponsibility on the defense. i hope the verdict is something that's appropriate with the evidence that was before. the defense attorney really never justified what their client did in my judgment for what i saw. they characterize more. i think they probably at a hill they could not climb. more on this case is on trial because given the timing of this right after kenosha, a lot of what we look at criminal justice in this country is going to be decided in the courtroom in this city in brunswick, georgia, i hope we show that we are a better nation than we were 20 or 40 years ago. >> rev, thank you for that response and analysis. we are learning new details of the deadly crash at a christmas parade in waukesha, wisconsin, nbc news has the latest. >> reporter: in the town of waukesha, families usually hustle to get a good spot for the christmas parade. this year the scramble was to escape. holiday cheers turned to terror and carnage. >> reporter: it was after 4:30 on sunday when this red suv plowed through barricades, going into marchers and families into the crowd. you can see the vehicle just missing a little girl dancing on the parade route. james said he saw evolve up close, he was shooting this video of his daughter's high school marching band when you can see the suv plowing into people. >> reporter: as the band played their last note, police officer cruisers already races down man street. one officer fired shots to stop the suv. >> how many victims? >> there were so many people. >> we have multiple casualties. >> reporter: five are dead ranging from age 52 to 81 years old. virginia sorenson, jane kulich and -- three of the victims along with their husbands. >> i want to remember how much joy they brought to everyone and how much they taught us to enjoy dancing and being together and being a family. >> reporter: 48 others were injured, 18 kids were taken to children's wisconsin hospital. six children remained in critical condition. >> what i saw was chaos and tragedy. first responders and the community coming together. >> reporter: the crime scene is wrapped in this police tape. you can tell how quickly families had to evacuate because they abandoned strollers and chairs all spread out. the 39-year-old derek brooks from milwaukee. he had a long criminal history. brooks was charged with battery and domestic abuse after the mother of his child said he ran over her with his vehicle. he was released after posting a $1,000 bail. the holiday paper raid, a 60-year-old traditions will now forever be remembered for all the wrong reasons. >> inappropriately low, a thousand dollar bail for domestic abuse and trying to run over the mother of his child? i mean this is what we hear. we hear horror stories like this in new york city, i know you hear it all the time and i hear it all the time, too. people that actually lived in new york city have dealing with skyrocketing crime. that's why that was a huge issue in the new york mayor's race and why eric adams said hey, we got to pump the brakes and make sure the people are committing violent acts and committing gun crimes are not back out on the street like in a couple of hours. >> yeah, or at least give the judges discretion to say wait a minute, this person is a danger to society, he should not be back out on the street right now. that's the problem of new york, the judges have no discretion. you got six kids lying in critical condition, we are sending our prayers to them and their families. we want to turn to a series of brazen smash and grab robbery, a chain of coordinated burglaries that began in san francisco. steve patterson has the latest. >> reporter: this holiday season, a cloud of fear hanging over the bay area. after consecutive night of broken glass and stolen goods, haunts some of the areas' shopping districts. >> reporter: a swarm of vandals and looters targeted louis vuiton and many other high-end stores. police flooded in attempted to pick up perpetrators as they fled. one video shows officers bashing in a car and making an arrest. nine stores were hit. eight people arrested so far with several weapons and thousands of dollars in merchandised recovered. >> this was not unplan. their plan was to overwhelm us and hoping that we would not be here but we were. >> reporter: next night a massive mob. >> the attack is organized. >> i probably saw 50 people in ski masks. >> reporter: some stopped by officers with guns drawn. on sunday, walnut creek police hinted of more coordination saying they actively monitoring intelligence are considering similar activities later today. >> it was sporadic. >> they add look out and we have seen it go in spurts and we make arrests and we see it die down and we see it pop backup again. >> reporter: later that night, more chaos in hayward. >> we can't continue people to commit these acts and get away with it. >> reporter: shopping districts are on high alerts. in this stunning video from a louis vuiton in chicago showing masked thieves bursting into the store in broad day light, swiping merchandise and running away. at least 14 suspects escaped in three separate vehicles. a holiday crime spree hitting stores at the height of the most important seasons. >> they have been armed, the idea of anybody be a hero over a thousand dollars in high-fashion bags does not make sense at all. >> they're not surprising to anyone living in san francisco and given what happens the last few years there. we'll do it at a lower rate than its ever been done. it will be a misdemeanor if you steal less than $950. all the signal is not just san francisco but it's what we are talking about here. if you want to go and steal stuff, we'll sit back and let it happen or we are not going to prosecute you after we catch you. >> well, i mean it's in san francisco. by the way, i am not sure what the mayor is talking about. we must stop this. it's been happening for a couple of years. a good friend of ours went into louis vuiton store to get a pair of sweats and about 10 people stormed into the store and pulled out guns and started piling stuff into suitcases. san francisco is out of control. portland is out of control. and you look in portland, you are right, willie, laws have consequences. >> uh-huh. >> and i don't know who sent the memo out like over the last couple of years of the dawning of the ages of aquarius and we don't have to worry about crime and punishment but we do. if you don't, these are the consequences. claire mckaskill, if you are the prosecutor, what's the first thing you do in coordination with law enforcement in those areas? >> well w you do a high profile press conference to announce charges which they ought to be able to do. they ought to be able to track the communications of the people who they have arrested. they have all gotten a signal from some where. this is another part of a power of a big tech. the ability to communicate that's encrypted so that law enforcement can't get the information. listen, the rule of law in this country has been the gold standard, lawlessness is not who america is. now, let's not allow these bad actors to shade our vision that there are still reform work needs to be done in terms of bad police officers that use race as a guide of who they beat up or hurt. that's one issue. another issue is if you break the law, you need to think some thing is going to happen. the law is there for a reason. these kinds of videos are really going to hurt all the people who use inprecise language like defund the police. >> willie, we can do two things at once. we can call for reforming police department, educating law enforcement officers, we can also give them the tools at the same time to keep people in their talents and cities safe. yeah, i know that for some people who have never actually held a job in the private sector or never had us running a small business, maybe they're cool of people stealing up to $950 of somebody else's money or property. i will tell you who's not cool with that? small business owners and working americans who understand that has an impact on them and on their children and on their families and their lives in these areas. it's really, again, this continues. it's insanity and it has to be stopped. >> these incidents we were watching did not fallout of the sky. they happen because there is a permissive environment in these cities we are not going to prosecute property crimes. rev, if you walked in a couple months ago of dwayne reid and everything was locked up. you had things that were not locked up locked up. joe mentioned eric adams, part of his campaign is we aregoing to stop the chaos and it's a big reason why he's going to be the next mayor of the city. >> that kind of politics is what's going to resonate. you want criminal justice to be criminal justice, you do not want to have this kind of lawlessness. first of all, no one worth forgiving people reforms. but, a guy or lady stealing a louis vuiton bag is not somebody that needs social up-lifting. this is somebody that's really causing us more of a problem. these liberals that justify these. this had nothing to do with poverty or you could not get a job. these are people that can go back to neighborhood where louis vuiton is not unusual and they can fit in many of it for gag. they hurt the cost of those who want criminal justice reform. at one level they hurt us that's trying to get a break in the criminal justice system which is why i agree with you. you have to give to the judges to have a discretion. >> all right. >> let me just say one thing. look at what's happening and something that eric adams had to deal with. look at what happened in wisconsin where you had a guy convicted or arrested for domestic abuse and trying to run over the mother of his children and then he's let out. >> yeah. >> $1,000 cash bail and five people are dead and children are sitting in the hospital right now in part because of that. it's kind of like when we talk about letting homeless people sleep on 15 degrees weather. i just wonder, who decided that this was enlightened? who decided this was progressive? who decided this was the most humanitarian way to run a society because who ever decided that has it backward. >> and i think you hit a key point. who defines what's progressive? there is nothing progressive about acting like this kind of behavior is normal. to normalize it act like certain people or community or races, we don't expect you to do no better. you try to run your wife down or lady down, that's what y'all do, let them go. rather than having a stand in there that's fair for everybody. if you break what's criminal or not criminal, you pay a prize because you victimize that lady and community and those children and i think that's what eric had been saying which is why you run for mayor at the same time it does not give police the right to cover to shoot you down like a dog. you can't act in a way you feel no matter what i do will be excused. i am not able to do any better. that's real racism, when you exec a people in a certain community and background not to be able to behave other than somebody that's out of control and does not have the mentality to do anything other than beasley acts. >> coming up, 58 years ago, americans woke up with a new president following the assassination of john f. kennedy. no events changed the u.s. trajectory more than kennedy's murder. we'll talk about the dividing line next on "morning joe." div line next on "morning joe. what . woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ my retirement plan with voya keeps me moving forward. they guide me with achievable steps that give me confidence. this is my granddaughter...she's cute like her grandpa. voya doesn't just help me get to retirement... ...they're with me all the way through it. voya. be confident to and through retirement. ow bizarre by omc ♪ no annual fee on any discover card. vo: just getting by, it's an ongoing struggle. that's why president biden and democrats in congress have a plan to lower costs for america's working families. lower costs of healthcare premiums and the price of prescription drugs. pay less for electric bills by moving to clean energy. and do it all by making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. it'd be a win for the everyday american family. right when they could really use one. congress, let's get this done. ♪ ♪ well would you look at that? 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[ding] ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ after my car accident, ♪♪ wondnder whahatmy c cas. ♪♪ so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris ci had no idea how muchw i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ the president of the united states had been taken from us. he's upheld the faith of our fathers which is freedom for all man. he broaden the frontiers of that faith and he backed it with the energy and the courage which are the mark of the nation that he lived. # the man of wisdom, strength and peace. the power of our nation and service of the world of growing liberty and order. all who love freedom will mourn his death. >> lyndon johnson channelling the country paying the day after, the assassination of jfk. >> joining us now is michael beshloss and jon meacham and douglas brinkley joins us this morning. great to have all three of you with us. >> thank you so much for being with us, here we are on november 23rd, jon meacham, when i ask you the difference between 1963 and november 3rd, 1963, talk about that dividing line in america's history. >> men with guns changed history. john kennedy was a remarkable example. one of our best in american history of watching someone grow in office. there was evident evolution. he saved us from nuclear armageddon and moved by the courage of the non-violent resistance in the south. he and his brother slowly but finally certainly embraced civil rights. he's given a speech in june of '63 who says civil rights is a moral issue and important as our constitution. civil rights bill was in the works and he ended up passing. the scale was cut down and a lot of our distrust in government and erosion of faith in our institutions begin in dallas. obviously exacerbated by vietnam and watergate and the crisis of our own time. not saying if he had live, the king of god will come down. i think king of america would have been a better place. >> 70% approval rating. we have not had a president that popular. i don't know how long the extended period of team. >> michael beschloss, there was a phrase i found interesting. he talked about foreshadowing what lbj would do using kennedy's death. that's interesting because at times civil rights leaders found, frederick douglas found -- jfk accused of civil rights leaders being the same, cold and tardy. his legacy helps passed in '64 and '65, the most expansive civil rights bills of our time. >> kennedy said elect me and i will hand this nation. he becomes president in 1961,a lot of southern committee and chairman and democrats and democrats hold on congress so he didn't do much because he was worried about the majority and many righteous white and black people began sending pens to the white house. why don't you sign that thing that says discrimination will end. if kennedy died for a purpose, he died for civil rights. the reason why he was so unpopular was when he went to texas, his popularity rating dropped about 20 points in some polls since he's the first comprehensive civil rights built to congress in about a century at the time of abraham lincoln's reconstruction. the anger in dallas was largely not only over progressive legislation but really over civil rights. had he not taken that position, he would have an easier time running for election. he was running at the time when he was in dallas against the radical right. he's campaigning against the blacks and whites saying neither the fanatics are needed. he could have won the 1964 with a big national big majority and reunite this country in a way that have never been since. >> and brinkley, i want you to share with us your thoughts on what happened 58 years ago but let's talk about vietnam, we'll have ken burns coming up and his extraordinary documentary on vietnam. burns had tapes of jfk in the summer of '63 saying we can never win in vietnam but i can't get out until after the election. something along those lines. so of course we have the legacy of vietnam also in the way of jfk who knew we had troops in a place where advisers could not win that war. he could not take it out after the election. >> that's right, let's keep in mind the big thing that john f. kennedy did over the summer of 1963 was that nuclear test band treaty. we stopped testing nuclear weapons because of diplomacy of kennedy. this was a big deal. we were blowing and detonating our nuclear devices. kennedy started saying i am going to be a peace president and end the cold war. we forget how close 1945 is to 1963. and kennedy started questioning do we need to be in this sort of square, two scorpions and a bottle. so they started a secret channel. when ken burns what he would be playing when kennedy spoke to walter in the fall before his death, it seemed like he was not going to get goated or intervention. people don't realize that kennedy was suspicious of -- he went forward on not being the pt 109 hero. he did not want to be goated ip into a war. i don't believe kennedy would have done what johnson did and start pouring troops in vietnam. possibly he would have but he'll never know. i am on the side that was lyndon johnson and richard more than it was jfk. >> that's the point that burns was making. kennedy understood in the summer of '63 that i think as he said they hate us. there is no way we'll be able to win a war over there. >> we'll be there over a dozen more years after that. >> jon meacham, the thinking that has spread thanks to social media around the 2020 election and you go back to the conspiracies that persists around the assassination of john f. kennedy, was that sort of the beginning of a conspirator thinking in our politics or things we did not predict it to be. i shutter to think what it would have been like back then if there had been facebook and qanon. >> yeah, those days it was the john birks society. there were a lot of folks on the left. i met people in chattanooga, tennessee, in the late '90s who still have literatures from those periods. but unquestionably dallas is an accelerant. the phrase conspiracy theory itself i think you can say was popularized by the stories, speculations about dallas. so unquestionably, teddy whites opened his 1964 books of the making of the president. talking about the sunlight when kennedy was coming under that bridge into the square. in this case, it was the country heading from sun to shadow. >> and i think unquestionably, the notion that you can't believe what an institution tells you in some ways can we traced to what happened on that terrible friday. >> we are in the middle of incredible conversation with three incredible historians of the assassination of jfk, 58 years ago yesterday and the transition to a new presidency 58 years ago today. a lot of letters in the wake of the assassination, here is one from an eight-year-old michael beschloss. >> dear president johnson, i think it would be great memorial if you can get some caring firm. michael bescloss, chicago illinois. >> very cute. very sweet. >> it says so much. >> it really does. >> so i wanted to continue on the conspiracy theory track that we were talking about. you of course had those flyers that were out and you tweeted out yesterday on november 22, 1963, the words look like they're off of a posting from joe biden's. i remember seeing people around people's homes. always heard the rumors spread around that lbj didn't kill x number of men that got on his way on the rise to the presidency including jfk. and of course you had jerry falwell and the clinton's critical, many saying bill clinton was responsible for the killing. i do wonder if the conspiracies are anything new, the only thing that's new is they just get passed around faster on facebook. >> i think they do. the other thing about that time november of 22nd, he sat around with jackie until they had to go to dallas and a big midday trip to dallas. the reason they made the big day trip had he wanted to get an honor ri degree from tcu. the trustee secretly met and said no, we are not giving an honorary degree. one of kennedy's advance men says why. he told the advance man the problem is he's a catholic and they don't want to give him an honorary degree. the result was the trip to dallas is a lot bigger. the source of history might have been changed had he got that honorary degree. >> unbelievable. doug brinkley, we bump in with lbj talking about kennedy believing in freedom of all people and you had lbj in '65 makes the voting rights act, the two most sweeping pieces of legislation in history. i guess i think we should stop here and just talk about how one of the extraordinary things about lbj's life when given this opportunity is here is a man who at times his political career was a segrigationist. he mocked and ridicule richard nixon for being too aggressive. is johnson moving forward? >> i would say it grew. >> just like harry truman dpru. >> just like a lot of leaders in this country broke. this man, this accidental president evolved in to again, the greatest president for the passing of civil rights and well american history. >> i could not agree with that more. we have to keep in mind 40% of african-american blacks voted for eisenhower in the 1950s. we were still with the black both parties. the big turning point when harrison and bobby kennedy. and that one phone call sent a ripple effect through the black community to rally behind john f. kennedy meaning daddy king started turning for kennedy. many blacks were be holden of the rocket fella for supporting the colleges. so it was a two-party then john f. kennedy did the right thing at the show down of james meredith in 1952. kennedy did kind of green light the march on washington and met with dr. king and his advisory at the speech. what lyndon johnson needed was the black vote but he wanted to do something big and historic, boy, did he do it? when he said we shall over come from the capitol and signed the voting rights act, it was seismic. there goes the south for the democratic party, turned out to be pathetic, true. you have a complete change from the blue to the red south today. the period we are talking about the death of kennedy and johnson's response could not be bigger. he was cautious not to get rid of cabinet in 1964. barry goldwater had his own and had something like 67 democratic senators. johnson just signs away. >> you go to the library, you will see their walls of johnson. >>. >> hey jon meacham. it started at an age where the americans lost age at our institution. and of course four years of president. trump. what do you think about those connections and is there anything at all that you see on the rising that can reverse that trend and restore how americans feel like their institutions st their nation? >> the other thing we should mention about the fall of 1963 is within the black community in america, the bombing of the baptist church in birmingham. that september was such an immense event. the murder of those four young girls. it was in many ways a kind of inflection point for the r movement, the face of jesus was blown out of the stained glass windows there. as over the american stories are complicated and complex. yes, there is no doubt that president kennedy's murder helped create a climate of climate of -- president kennedy had said that american university that when he was douglas was talking about the treaty, he talked about the capacity of man to solve all problem ps. there is a little boift a line there to the great society peach that president johnson gave the university of michigan. it was this bold era of hopes of the power of the states and the power sector could -- >> in the midst of this, october 1964 that actor who left ge theater and death valley days gives a speech for barry goldwater which is quite fact based. >> ronald reagan's speech is almost numbingly about acts and reality. it was a different view ken zi and johnson and fdr in truman but it was a reality base. >> in many ways american conservatives is in light from reality. the left could be at some point but they're not at the moment. >> it does not include -- what's the act of recovery? >> you prove the public sector can produce prosperity and growth and a genuine sense that we are created equal and we should be treated equally. >> michael, as you talk about lost in faith of the government and we have been talking about conspiracy theories and automatic about the investigation into the death of jfk and the warning in addition and how you talk about one commission launching a million conspiracy theories, those questions lingered today. >> right, we are 58 years after the assassination and there is no clues of who killed john f. kennedy and why. >> strange groups such as the crowd that was in daily plaza yesterday and the last couple of weeks we were talking about donald trump and 2024 and the return of john kennedy jr. to run as trump's vice president in 2024. that's about as conspiracy events we have gotten. if you are talking about what changed 58 years ago yesterday, government was shown to be unable to protect us. sent our young people to vietnam to die. half a million of them. that's what lbj did, many of the things that people on the far left but more important on the far right who are not in the rest of them are saying, don't trust government, they are corrupt and in effective and they may kill you. that's the exactly the same message today. >> historians michael beschloss and jon meacham. thank you all for coming on this important conversation. >> still ahead, ahmad accusations of abuse and trump just endorsed for the mayor governor. we'll talk about trump's extremist picks and what they mean for the future of the gop, and the country. y mean for the future of the gop, and the country. as a 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ticking slightly to 44%. better than most of donald trump's throughout his presidency but the question is does it continue in that direction when you still have him lagging so badly behind the economy on covid and a lot of different issues. >> joe biden has had a couple of wins to get him a little momentum. they passed the infrastructure bill which will begin to repair and be build roads and bridges and broad band. the house passed months after hackling its legislation and sort of paralyzing congress for so long. at least it looks like there is some momentum and that can begin to help a president take up a little bit. i think the people up until now just watched the -- >> but the problem is for president biden goes beyond that. the inflation right in particular had people concerned hitting the holidays and maybe get that ease a little bit. the challenge for him going forward still pretty immensing, getting the public to agree that we are on the right track. >> the numbers don't think that right now. >> there is reasons for concerns and also hope for the biden administration, as you look at the numbers and cross half, you see 90% of democrats supporting skrie den which when 90% of democrats are supporting him. he's getting close to 50% of the vote. >> only 80% supported him. his supporters when down voters and progressives down. >> those who voted, a lot of democrats are not going to be going elsewhere but we saw in 2020 did lose some voters among hispanic voters. what do joe biden need to do to solidify those reports. 44% approval rating ticks up higher. >> that's right. not only that numbers go up, are they going to go out and organize and knock on doors and drive their friends to if polls. that's the question. you need that base of enthusiasm. when i talked to focus in the democratic party base. they talk ability two things, they say it was racial justice that brought them to the water sed shed in 2020 and in january and in georgia and that the failure to act on the freedom to act and vote, the john lewis' voting right. even as we see republicans coalesce around gerrymandering. the idea that he can't get his own party to act as defense of majority of americans on our number civic religion in this country which is democracy. for all the talk about racial justices and reckoning, we still have police officers who are subjected to qualified immunity protection. which is something of the majority americans, multi racial majority americans want to see ended. they wanted to see the george floyd police reform act. if you think about the sort of moment has been for black americans, those are two big events. a trump-endorsed supporter is ending his campaign. sean parnell announced his decision yesterday. the former army ranger had been running to replace for pat toomey, faced allegations of abuse. parnell once choke her to the point where she had to bite him top break free. >> and that he witness slapped one of their children hard enough to leave marks on their backs. >> parnell denies the allegations and wrote in a statement yesterday there is nothing more important to me than my children >> and willie, important to say because we still have, you know, due process in this country. these are allegations and a divorce complaint. they have dogged him thout this campaign and caused a lot of republicans and concerns. he was not seen as the top tier candidate. there is no doubt that a lot of members are cheering the fact that he's getting off the campaign trail right now. he should. >> and figure out as good as life is straight. >> donald trump has seemed to select one candidate after another candidate and had these allegations hurled at him. it's a nightmare for mitch mcconnell and senate republicans would like to be in the majority again. it was donald trump who drew up georgia for him and kept him out. >> the number one require for his endorsement was do you love me enough or do you say nice things about me? if everything else that comes after number one on tn list and a lot of times there is a lot that comes after. we see in former president trump back in maryland. >> the governor sets up a high-profile for the two factions. hogan, a frequent trump critic hand picked a candidate to replace him. trump backed daniel cox embraced many far rights decisions. he sues hogan of the stay-at-home order in the pandemic. he also call former vice president a traitor for not over turning the 2020 election results. governor hogan responded, i prefer endorse. from people who did not lose maryland by 33 points. >> his job approve reached 68%. >> larry hogan is one of those popular governors in all of the country of any party. >> his endorsement holds a lot more way sway in that state than perhaps donald trump. >> mccaskill, i was reading a fascinating article, i think it's "morning consult," it had all the approval ratings of governors. the top approval ratings are republicans in the bluest of blue states, vermont governor and charlie baker, a 72% approval rating. larry hogan have 70% of approval raying in maryland. sinau, why the hell would i want to come to washington, d.c. and dealing with all the crazies that's down there when you can work with democrats and have approval rating in the 70s. this whole idea there has to be one republican party or democratic party and you must behave this way if i are in one party or that way. >> these northeast and new england and republicans to show it's a total life. >> why should any republican cares what donald trump says in maryland when you got a guy sitting there, a republican with a 70% approval rating. >> i will give you two words why it's important in maryland. it's called close primaries. the reason why hogan has those number us because independents and democrats are supportive. he's been able to call out the big lie and the conspiracy theorist and the irresponsibility around behavior and covid. >> he has been somebody who's been a voice of sanity in a wilderness of nut tiness in the republican party. >> in all these states have a close primary this now becomes trump verses normal in a republican primary. there is no indication that trump does not beat normal in a close republican primary. >> more from governor hogan who's sounding the alarm about what he's calling "trump's cancel culture." >> hogan raised concerns of trump's retaliating against republicans he does not like. >> this comes after trump reportedly pushes his former georgia to a primary republican governor, kemp in his reelection race. trump repeatedly blame kemp for his 2020 loss in 2020. the governor did not do enough from stealing the election. >> at a rally earlier this year, trump went as far assaying -- >> he'll do anything to turn things upside down for people. >> jonathan swan, donald trump, a one man recking balfour the republican majority. you look at what happened to brian kemp. you don't have to live in the state of georgia and herschel will endorse you. you look at the whack job that this guy has been endorsing across the country. you look at and you talk about a bar seen from star wars, look at the republicans in arizona that are front runner right now. this is something that again, i go back to mitch mcconnell. this is something that mitch connell has to worry about everyday. not mccarthy because those seats are still gerrymandered. if you want to win statewide in georgia and arizona, you know, donald trump is your biggest problem. >> candidates actually matter. the political environment is the best for republican in deades on my metrics. issues like inflation and supply chain. when donald trump has his top advisers and they discuss endorsement. this was done back in a few months. and trump will say all these polls, where is he on trump? where is he on trump? >> that's literally -- his quote. the other thing is where were they on 2020? there has been some advises as president who said to him look, you have a very -- you have a low percentage chance of winning the 2020 election. and we have a system what higher percentage chance of winning back from the house and the senate in 2022. maybe let's talk about future elections, a past election that you lost. that's falling on deaf ears to say the least. the president is still excited on the 2020 election and it's actually driving his selection to endorse in it. that's how you get your character in maryland and describing it as a traitor and being endorsed by the president. >> yeah, that happens. >> okay, -- what are we talking about here? >> this is what fears, someone got an interesting view of immigration. >> the sitting president of the united states of who's a figure of the evangelical movement would considered those hard core right-wing member of congress. that's where we are at. >> joe, it's interesting, we are talking about larry hogan and his comments. he made those last week at the conference in phoenix. if you talk to people and read some of the report rg out there, the star of that event was glenn youngkin. the talk most of it in hush tone. >> he provided us a road map. this is a way for it. lose the crazy and talk about policies and issues that ignites people and excites them. i do see host of the conference. youngkin and brian kemp were the tw speakers at their big dinner. we know that because governor kemp has been attacked by donald trump. yes, they understand the power by donald trump. when they goat together in those rooms, they're looking for ways to move past it. >> and i understand history was on youngkin cease side. if you look back at history, i think terry mcauliffe was the only person when he won at 13. >> sort of broken that trend, somebody from an opposite party. the governor's race, with that said, virginia turned so blue. biden won by ten point that is republicans have to be looking at glenn youngkin and trying to figure out why he scored ten points better than donald trump did. >> and it's a question that again, republicans need to ask themselves it's all out there in front of them. youngkin is what he said put donald trump in a lock box throughout the general election count. >> it works for him. the general election campaign would not let him come into the state of jazz and ran commercials on broadcast tv and on cable that were middle of the road commercials. it was a far cry from the crazy campaign antics that we saw donald trump and his accolades were on. >> jonathan swan, the latest episodes of, you have done it again. >> you pressed on tlaib whether she thinks america would be better off today if existers did not finish during the trump era. >> i will tell you this much. may be it created a movement that made it happen outside congress. >> i don't want something to be used over and over again to stop protecting my black roots. it seems that's when it gets triggered the most. >> as a matter of principles, even when the republicans win the, you would still vote and abolish the filibuster. >> it's critical to making sure. >> you still say we need to get rid of it. of course, if there is as tool though they can use it to stop. because they used it. >> now you are saying -- >> let me tell you why. >> i would just would think even the history behind the filibuster have proven over and over again is just not good for our country. >> so interesting. >> it's an interesting back and forth there. i guess i am so old. i am seeing people switch sides time and time again on the filibuster. republicans loved it in'93 and '94 when we took back control of the senate, we dismissed the fi fill bust bust and it happens. people think it's the first thing of the world when during the majority love it. >> it has been that way for quite a long time. >> what's interesting when i was preparing for this interview, looking to do research for its lineup questions, i was looking this trust in the democratic party to get rid of the filibuster. a lot of it is animated by language that's cashes moral terms. i have no doubt there are a number of typically progressives who normally see people in the long-term >> i was interested to see, in 2017, more than half of senate democrats including now vice president kamala harris signed a letter and send it to senate leaders urging them to preserve the fill bust ere. dave and buster. >> the question that i have, the racist history of filibuster and being used left or right nchlt it was true but also true in 2017. is this an argument about political convenience or an argument about morality and ethics. >> i remember kyrsten sinema in the senate saying guys, you may want to think about this because republicans could take back powering washington and then you know let's think about all the things that we have used the filibuster to stop during the trump's years, cutting funding for sanctuaries that don't enforce federal immigration laws. this could come back to bite democrats if they do go down this path. >> well, ilt actually will come back to bite democrats. heather, this is what i don't understand. >> i guess i am being a broken record on this. >> harry reed, he passed filibuster reform for federal judges. mitch mcconnell did the same thing, he got rid of the filibuster reform or whatever republicans wanted to call it. the supreme court justices. it seems like a no. i understand why both meant l men thaus that. it's a no franer though that you can also have a civil rights act or you can have those same exceptions for civil rights legislation and most importantly for voting rights legislation. that seems like a no brainer. >> that is right, we need to make sure our obscure procedures which includes of what we think of the filibuster and people have been talking for a long time. the default 60 votes threshold. this is the super rierms in a country needs to be working on that goal. if you look at the whole idea, we further away. >> two huge pieces of news came out, we are for the first time on a backsliding democracy bases and at 150 scholars saying, twilight on democracy of america. if we don't pass it to vote right now because of the way that the particular party taken aim at the concept majority rule. >> when you have the senate rep presenting 41 million americans, the idea that they can control the legislative questions of does it still have one person, one vote. are we still allowed to freely vote? these core questions when you find the whole question of our we are representative of democracy or not, starting to be answered more in the no column. >> preserving the filibuster and our democracy seems like a no brainer like you said. >> peter baker, it's so fascinating when you look at the debate over the filibuster and jonathan brings up a fascinate point, democrats would have been horrified as if filibuster had not been in place. >> by god, the things they would have passed would have been a night mare for most democrats which is why there is so many democratic senators that are not excited about getting rid of the filibuster. oh yeah, sure, they'll push joe manchin out there to talk about it because it helps them at home. >> but, there are at least ten others understanding the danger of getting rid of the filibuster top to bottom. >> he repeatedly, to get rid of the. >> zez what really love the filibuster. we see the slippery slope and that has happened, right? >> the democrats got rids of the filibuster for district. justices as well. would democrats would have liked to have the filibuster last october when amy conen barrett was confirmed? >> they would of. if you want to get rid of it, that's ununderstandably. >> that's the question that jonathan is asking. are you willing to live with it when you don't have the majority in the senate. >> and he also pressed jonathan swan congresswoman tlaib about prison reform and here is what she has to say. >> did you see how many people are mentally ill. >> in ten years but think about? who are we relieving. >> oh, i know. >> do you mean you don't support that? >> no, i enact the -- you can't just say oh, that's not what i want -- >> that's like in plain text. at at who's in prison now. >> do you believe there are still categories of people who should be behind bars. >> there is absolutely. right as we play the clip, we lost jonathan feeds. you are going to play the role of jonathan. >> i hope you have a good aussi accent. >> to question -- oh, jonathan has come back. >> sorry. >> i don't have to be his under study. we just played the clip. i don't know if you saw it. >> you are talking about congresswoman about criminal reform and what's your thoughts? >> the reason why i was interested in this country was there is obviously various debates going on. rashida tilib supports outside the democratic party. >> and the goal of that line of questioning was to tease out the extent of the implications of that. it's one thing to say we need more rehabilitation and we need to reform the way we do sentencing laws. if notion that there is no category of people who are currently in prison deserves to be behind bars is a pretty provacative argument to say the least. you got human traffickers and massive child sex traffickers, terrorists and etc. >> that was the lineup of e requesting. she seems to walk away from it. from that position everyone though -- >> you can see jonathan say. >> closing off all federal immigration, detention centers. you could not help to think of the republican ads will be cut as you watch that interview. >> there needs to be release a lot of thoughtful discourse about this bill which ultimately hurt our ability to get the things we care about across the finish line. it hurts our ability to win seats in swing distributes. it hurts our ability to get our aprooufrl number up with independent voters. >> i am from filibuster reform. if somebody who has walked the walk as it relates to the filibuster, i know what we stopped. if we say we are going to change it for civil rights then it won't happen. this is about the rights of the unborn and all of a sudden we'll have really dramatically right-wing stuff that democrats are going to hate. everyone needs to buckle in zg be prepared for that if we change the filibuster. >> all right, claire, thank you. jonathan swan, thank you very much. >> heather mcgee, thank you. president biden has tapped powell to continue her serving in his role. >> the president's aapproval ratings sink. eye bye den says he believes powell is the best choice. and mitch mcconnell tells nbc news, the republican leader is expected to support chairman powell's nomination. >> willie, that's fascinating. some has looked at this decision by joe biden as a prove more towards the center that biden recognizes that he has to move more towards the center economically. here is a guy that again now you have people on the left and right who seem to be from elizabeth warren to mitch mcconnell who seem to be supporting him, staying in place. >> jonathan lemire, some questions about whether powell would say. there are progressives who don't like him, republicans who don't like him. donald trump attacked him, of course, for his own reasons. what went into this decision to keep powell on board? >> it was a lengthy decision, one that was delayed several times. reflected how he reaches big decisions, tortured process where i talked to a lot of aides, advisers, outside experts, signaling in on what he wanted. the powell choice was interesting. most of the democrats in the senate wanted this. powell has been confirmed once before so there stands a good chance he will be, despite the democrats' major-thin margins, in the senate. and some said powell was a dangerous man, he was a bad choice for this. this is a moment where biden seems to be standing up to the progressives in the party, at least on this choice, i'm not going to be fully with you. we have to see if this is a reflection for what could happen down the road or simply about this one decision. as a final point here, this is an important one. this is not one that americans don't spend a lot of time thinking about but with the fed's ability to control interest rates, how the fed navigates this will be significant for the economy and the democrats and presidential's fortunes. it will be key clearing out as quickly as possible. moments ago breaking news, the white house announced it is releasing oil from the nation's strategic petroleum verve. joining us now, member of the white house council economic advisers heather boucher. good morning, a lot to talk about. let's talk about the breaking news, united states working in concert with china, japan, india, south korea to tap into its reserves to bring down gas prices. >> as we were just talking about, we know gas prices going up for american families and one way to deal with this is to make sure that there is oil available. so this is where the department of energy is going to be releasing 50 billion barrels of oil into the market in order to help contain costs, and doing this in concert with a number of allies as you mentioned and also the united kingdom and the purpose here is to reduce prices at the pump. and since the stories who have been starting to leak out over the past week, we've already seen prices down by over 10%. >> good morning, it's jonathan lemire. on the same issue, obviously, with the oil prices, they're walking billboards. you drive down the street and see gas prices up, that's a sign of inflation and supply changes. there are hopeful signs some of the supply chains are easing. we don't have a long way to go. it doesn't seem like they will be done or cleared up before the holiday season. can you walk us through what else is white house is doing now to try to ease this pressure on consumers? >> the white house has been engaged in a number of efforts to ease supply chains. so just keeping on the issue of oil for a moment, of course, about a week and a half or two weeks ago, the president sent a letter to the federal trade commission to make sure that those prices that consumers are paying at the pump are actually fair prices because as we've seen, the changes in the prices of oil going down, that hasn't actually been reflected in gas prices and so he's asked the federal trade commission to make sure there's no illegal activity going on and that it is leading to too high prices for consumers. so that's one thing. of course, the president has been very focused on supply chains for a number -- for quite some time. one of the things he's done is made sure that those ports out on the west coast, where so many american imports come through and are shipped via truck across the country, making sure that we got out the kinks in the supply chains, made it possible for truckers to work 24/7. and as a result we've seen now record goods flowing through those ports. we've seen a number of major retailers announcing that they actually have their -- their shelves are stocked and they're ready to go for this holiday season. >> so, heather, can you just tell me from looking back at history when other presidents have done this, how soon would you expect consumers to notice a significant impact of the president releasing 50 barrels of oils from this strategic reserve? >> as i noted, as this news started to leak out into the press, we already saw oil prices come down. so to some extent, we're already seeing the impact and the question is whether or not that will be reflected in prices at the pump. here's the thing, we really need to remember that while a big part of what american consumers face is cost, they also are able to go out and buy all of these things because they have jobs. and so there's two sides to the coin for the american family, you know, right now the unemployment rate is 4.6%. this time last year, forecasters were estimating it would take another two years for us to get to this place. so these challenges that we're seeing in terms of prices really are because we've been so successful in getting people back to work so quickly. this thanksgiving season, far fewer people are going hungry. and that is a result of effective policy over the past year. >> heather, let me ask you, and i had mistaken this earlier, i said elizabeth warren supported the renomination of jerome powell. she had not, along with donald trump in "the wall street journal" editorial page. but you did have pramila jayapal and mitch mcconnell lining up in support of this election. it took a while for the president to get to where he did on this. explain why chairman powell is an important pick to stay at the fed. >> here's the thing, you know, we have lived through an historic pandemic. and yet we did not have a financial crisis. and that is in large part because of the actions that the federal reserve took at the beginning of the pandemic to make sure that they kept financial markets stable. at the same time, chairman powell over the past few years led the federal reserve in a rethink of their policies. they did all of these events around the country, these fed listens tours. then in august of 2020 they announced a new framework that gave the federal reserve a broader band of tools. and that's really helped them be able to focus on their dual mandate of getting us back to full employment while also making sure they ensured price stability. i think there's been a lot of successes over the past few years with the fed. i think all of that really played into the president's decision how to make this choice. >> member of the white house council of economic advisers, heather boushy, thank you so much for being on this morning. and still ahead -- major headlines surrounding january 6th. the house select committee investigating the capitol attack issues, a new round of subpoenas to former trump allies, including roger stone and alex jones. that as today marks the deadline for others to turn over documents to the committee, including former trump adviser stephen miller and former press secretary kayleigh mcenany. plus, jonathan karl returns with his bombshell book filled with new reporting on the final act of the trump show. "morning joe" is back in a moment. 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medical or religious exemption or asked for an extension. the biden administration has insisted the federal vaccine mandate will not disrupt government services and operations. with the vaccine mandate for federal workers now in effect, tsa officials say they aren't expecting any disruptions to holiday travel this week. the agency took to twitter to announce that 93% of tsa employees are in compliance with president biden's mandates. >> those are really good number. >> it is, especially what they're up against. >> you start talking about 90% of the workforce being vaccinated, those are just good, strong numbers. >> but with that coronavirus vaccine test e and testing mandates for private businesses tied up in court, dozens of leading health groups, including the american medical association, are urging businesses nationwide to voluntarily implement the proposed vaccine or testing mandate. in a joint statement, the groups wrote, in part, quote, we, physicians, nurses and advanced practice clinicians, health experts and health care professional societies fully support the requirement that workers at companies with 100 -- over 100 workers be vaccinated or tested. from the first day of this pandemic, businesses have wanted to vanquish this virus. now is their chance, to step up and show they are serious. that joint statement was coordinated by our next guest, former obama white house adviser for health policy and vice provost for global initiatives at the university of pennsylvania, dr. ezekiel emanuel. zeke, thank you for being on with us this morning. how important is it that all businesses do this, and what's the chances all will comply with an actual mandate? >> it's very important. we have to get our vaccine rate up 85% to 90% of the population, and we know that's not going to happen voluntarily so it has to happen through mandates. we also know workers are at high risk. retail workers at high risk. police, more police have died by covid than gun violence. this is important to protect the workers. this is important to protect sew side. businesses want to open and the fastest way to open for them is to get control of the virus and the best method to intervene is the vaccine. so you can't be -- we want to open, we want to get back to normal business but we're not going to be for a mandate to get people vaccinated. those are inconsistent policies and we urge businesses to stop with the legal challenges and to start mandating that their employees get a vaccine. we know you can get over 90%, 95% of the population vaccinated and that's where we have to be. >> zeke, good morning. give us a snapshot if you can a couple days ahead of thanksgiving of where we are. we have vaccines for a year. now we're into the booster phase for all of this who had it six months or more ago. we had this promising pfizer pill perhaps on the horizon. i think there are a lot of hopeful signs heading into the holidays here but as you say, also warning signs about us being in closed spaces and all of the gathering and traveling going on. where you sit, where are we in this pandemic? >> we're probably heading into a surge because of thanksgiving, because of christmas and new year's. and we're not using all of the techniques we have, like the vaccines to the maximum, and we have to do that. you can protect yourselves, you know. you can get together for thanksgiving, try to get earn vaccinated. if you're worried, have a rapid test so for everyone on the day when you're going to get together, and when you're in crowds outside or signed when you don't know other people's vaccination status, you should wear a mask. those are common senses approaches you need to adopt. i wish we could forget about fighting over the vaccine, whether the use of a mask. use something super effective, very safe, not perfectly safe but very safe, and get back to normal fast from that point. >> zeke, one more quick question about the booster. there are people who still get covid with the first and second vaccine. how effective is the booster -- how close can you get to complete protection? >> i don't know what you mean by complete protection but the booster is very, very effective against hospitalization, serious illness and death. is it going to completely prevent those? no. we know that. and it's not going to completely prevent transmission, especially in older patients where we had the problem of most of the patients -- most of the cases of serious illness occur in older patients. it's not 100% effective there. does it substantially reduce your risk? yes. look at the risk of death, people who are unvaccinated have 13 times the risk of death of someone who's vaccinated. that is a huge difference and that's why we do need everyone to get vaccinated and especially people over 65 to get the booster. you might have temporary aches and pains, flu-like symptoms, but you will be protected for longer and that is critical going forward. we really do need a population to get vaccinated so older people are protected against serious harm and death. >> dr. ezekiel emanuel, thank you once again for coming on the show this morning. now to the house select committee investigating the january 6th capitol attack. yesterday issuing another round of subpoenas. five more allies of former president trump who were directly involved with the planning of the rally that took place before the insurrection have been asked to provide testimony and documents. they include, longtime republican operative roger stone and right wing conspiracy theorists alex jones. stone was pardoned by the former president for crimes tied to a congressional probe of trump's 2016 campaign. he appeared at multiple stop-the-steal events in the days leading up to the capitol attack. according to the committee, stone has been slated to lead a march to the capitol from the list on january 6th but did not end up doing so. as for those who attacked the capitol that day, nbc 4 washington investigative reporter scott mcfarlane posted yesterday this court exhibit released by the justice department that appears to show what happens as police tried to protect a closing door at the u.s. capitol complex on january 6th. there you see people throwing chairs and anything they can at police officers and as the door goes up, you see a trump flag. and other notable revelations from the court proceedings, an indiana man charged with carrying a loaded firearm to the u.s. capitol january 6th, reportedly suggested to investigators that he was targeting house speaker nancy pelosi. according to politico, 56-year-old mark mazza is the latest of about half a dozen january 6th defendants charged with bringing a gun to the capitol. mazza told investigators he thought he and pelosi would hit it off, adding if he had found her, quote, you'd be here for another reason. and he can do a plea hearing for the man photographed carrying the lectern of house speaker nancy pelosi at the time of the attack. you remember that. he said vice president al gore had a better standing than donald trump to challenge the election he lost but he was a "man" and went on. and he said, what concerns me, sir, is you're gullible enough to come to washington, d.c. from florida based on a lie and a person who inspired you to do what you do is still making those statements and my concern is that you are gullible enough to do it again. joe, here we have another judge putting a line in the sand saying i'm not only worried about what you did almost a year ago, i'm worried about what other people may do going forward. >> and, again, another federal judge who's pointing the finger and pointing the blame at donald j. trump. let's go to chief white house correspondent for abc news, jonathan karl. his new book is entitled "betrayal: the final act of the trump show." it's incredible the last couple of days, we had two federal judges talking about the betrayal of donald trump against those very people who were gullible enough to believe his lies, upend their lives and come to washington, d.c. and have their entire lives wrecked by the fact they committed crimes against the united states government. >> i mean, he -- they were doing his bidding. that is clear, crystal clear in these proceedings, joe. and it was donald's activity didn't begin with his speech at the ellipse on january 6th. this is as i sketch out in "betrayal" a methodical buildup to january 6th using all means necessary, everything at his disposal to try to stop the transition of power. it wasn't simply a protest, it wasn't simply a violent protest. it goes far beyond the actual crimes committed at the capitol on that day. the assault of police officers, the breaking into the building, the vandalism and all of that. this was much more than that. this was much more than a violent riot. this was an effort to stop the central mechanism of american democracy of the peaceful transition of power. and it did not start with the president's speech that morning. >> yes. jonathan, we, of course, had bob woodward and robert costa on talking a good bit about what happened the night before. on january the 6th though, you take us inside the oval office with the president and talk about even when finally pushed to make statements to these rioters, to these people that were beating the hell out of police officers with american flags and brutalizing them into inches of their -- of them losing their lives, donald trump, you know, donald trump wasn't asking them to stop the violence. >> no, he wasn't. and joe, keep in mind the one video message that he put out that night was after the riot had been under way for hours, and he had been begged, i mean kevin mccarthy went public that day to say he was begging donald trump to come out and give a message to the country and to those rioters to stop, to stand down, to go home. i went through, i methodically talked to everybody i could get ahold of who was in the white house that day, everybody who saw the president, everybody that i can find who talked to the president that day, and he was getting this message from several corridors, you got to get out there, you've got to stop this. so when he finally agrees to give the videotaped message, you know how dreadful that message was. he spends more time praising the rioters. he says, i love you to the rioters on that message. but he does tell them to go home. the thing that blew me away in looking at what happened in the making of that video is they bring the cameras in, i talk to somebody who was there for the taping of that message, they bring the cameras in and he does -- he does a video message and he forgets to tell them to go home. so they reject it. he does it again. once again, he doesn't include the only line that really matters, go home. and this goes on for several takes until he finally gives the take that is deemed acceptable, which, of course, was anything but acceptable because he's praising the rioters, not condemning the violence. >> the fact is he was flattered by what they were doing on his behalf. >> he was. >> as you detail in the book, jon, we focus so much and rightly so on all of the people who enabled january 6th who got us to that point, who went along for the ride, who fanned the flames and supported donald trump, but you do write about some of the people in the book who stood in the door and prevented truly a catastrophe in this country, total collapse of the democracy. obviously vice president pence was the one on that day who stopped and didn't do what the president wanted him to do. who else though as we look at history now, and you take a broad look at this, as perhaps someone or some people helped to stop what could have been an even darker moment in the american history? >> i think there are several and they were surprising figures because nothing in their -- in the background of any of these people would ever lead you to believe they would have been the one to stand up against donald trump. i know bill barr is one the of the most controversial figures in the trump -- in trump universe. his statement coming out and saying that there was no fraud was extremely important but more important than that was his steadfast refusal to use the power of the justice department to go out and to do things like seize voting machines and force a rerun of the election or force states to send new electoral votes. he refused that. you can tell the importance of that because the day after barr steps down, the acting attorney general, jeff rossen, is summoned to the white house and trump says i got a new guy, let's try it with this guy. of course, rosen also says no. i think the people at the justice department, when the coup attempt at the justice department was attempted in early january, january 2nd, when trump goes -- is going to do this scheme of putting in jeffrey clark as the attorney general, who is going to go pressure georgia and the other states to send new electoral votes, every other senior official at the justice department makes a pact they will all resign. this is the head of all key divisions in the justice department. that was a major moment. also, you know, raffensperger himself. and one name we may never know because she doesn't want her name out there, an official, employee of the parliamentarian's office in the senate, the rioters are already in the building and senators are being rushed to a safe location said, wait a minute, we've got to grab those boxes, mahogany boxes that carried the electoral votes. i asked people what would have happened if those boxes were destroyed, electoral votes were destroyed? it's not clear because the constitution has clear rules, they have to be originals, signed by the states by a certain date. we would have had another element of a constitutional crisis if that relatively junior employee of the parliamentarian's office said wait a minute, we have to save the boxes too. mike barnicle is with us. mike, what's so important about jonathan karl's reporting is he takes us back to the minute things that happened during the insurrection itself, talking about the difficulty to get the president to even say the words "go home," how terrifying that is, as the world was watching our united states capitol building get desecrated and our lawmakers, our leaders, our politicians live threatened. and also trump himself, his participation in this, not just in the days leading up but on that day, begging people to go to the capitol, waving his arms, sending him on their way, tricking them saying he will be there too. it's kind of hard not to look at who was directly responsible for this very dark day. >> that's true, mika. as you expect from anything that jonathan does, there are nuggets of great reporting in this book. one of the elements he just commented upon is the forethought of taking the electoral ballots out of the united states senate. again, it's a reminder of how close we came that day to losing our democracy. but, jonathan, i know you have known donald trump well prior to his presidency. and you sat down for an extended interview for this book at mar-a-lago pose presidency. my question to you is on the verge of you volunteering an editorial opinion for us. and it is this -- when you're sitting with donald trump at mar-a-lago, after he has left the presidency, did it occur to you, my god, this man was actually president of the united states? >> you know, variations of that occurred to me not just in that interview but many days before. and it was striking to me that in my first book on trump, i recounted my very first interview with him, is which was in 1994 in trump tower when he was just kind of the big self-described media real estate mogul. and how little the guy had changed, but all that had transpired. he had been president and not only had he won the most improbable election victory in history, the biggest upset in history in 2016, he had single-handedly brought us to the type of crisis that we had never seen in all of american history. so i'm still trying to get my head around all of that. i think we all are. >> hey, jon, it's jonathan lemire. good morning. you mentioned some people who stood up to the president and some did so by leaning, by resigning. what that did is leave a hauled-out west wing, populated by those who controlled a conspiracy theory as michael flynn and sidney powell among them. your book has terrific reporting about some of the ideas that were batted about inside the oval office by those conspiracy theorists to justify trump keeping power. one of which involved gina haspel, germany and some sort of terrible injury. can you explain to our viewers what just happened? >> this is the kind of stuff you would read if you went to the outer reaches of the internet and the dark web into qanon land. but it was discussed right there at the upper echelons, the top levels of our government. this was an idea, a phone call that was made from sidney powell to one of the top officials that trump had put into the pentagon, the under-secretary of defense for intelligence and security. the civilian official in the line of authority over special operations troops. and somehow sidney powell had gotten this guy's ezra cohen's direct line, unpublished line in the pentagon. this is a number only the west wing would have or fellow officials at the pentagon, and by the way, the people i spoke to were convinced it was mark meadows who gave out that phone number. who knows? but she called and she wants him to dispatch a special operations team to germany to capture -- rescue/capture cia director gina haspel who she said was there trying to seize and destroy evidence of a computer server farm that was used to switch all of the votes in the election. >> good lord. >> but i've got to tell you, it's nuts if we read it on the internet, we would just go by and maybe laugh at how insane it was. but this idea that powell -- i'm sorry, that gina haspel had been hurt in germany on this crazy mission actually got out there so widely that the cia at the time had to issue a statement saying no, gina haspel is in langley at her office and she is just fine. it's insane. >> this is insanity, jonathan. >> but it happened at the top levels of our government. >> it is, jonathan. i look back over those four years and, yes, as an american, i am grateful that donald is no longer there, grateful. i thifrpg god he's no longer there. but the further we get away from it, i am just as grateful that the drifters and the fascists and the third tier losers that are usually the dregs of washington, d.c., that they were taken out from the top levels of government when donald trump is defeated. those are the people again, who as much as trump, caused grave damage to this republic. >> and still do. >> and by the way, they're still making money off it. one of the things the january 6th committee is looking into is the money trail. and the way in which this whole effort was used to raise money on essentially fraud, on a lie. and it's still happening and they're still raising a lot of money, frankly from a lot of people who can't afford it but have been sucked in to believe these lies. >> by the way, jonathan, why would donald trump ever stop running for re-election when, you know, we've known him for a long time, you've known him for a long time, the guy's driven by money. he cares about money. so he raises tens of millions of dollars for a legal defense fund or to challenge the election. he doesn't spend the money on that. he can raise millions and millions and millions of dollars being a drifter on a national scale whether he decides to run for president or not. and one point mika brought up to me, you know, these people that you bring up, who helped save our republic, they're not going to be around in '24. >> you know, he has systematically going about to destroy anybody who defied him in that moment, whether they voted for impeachment in the house or local officials like brad raffensperger, who stopped him at the state level. he won't be able to take them all out, but it is -- i don't know if he's going to run again. as you know, i've said i actually think he ultimately won't run again, but he certainly will be telling us that he's going to be running again, until the moment comes. he will make us think he's running again. he will not rule it out for the very reasons you cite. and there was another really i thought significant development that we learned about in the last 24 hours, and that is that the rnc is now paying more of his personal legal bills. the reason why that is significant to me is one of the things i learned in the reporting on this book is trump did say he's leaving the party january 20th. sayonara, i'm gone, i'm creating my party and he didn't care. he didn't care when ronnie mcdaniel said you will destroy the party, we'll never win again. and he said yeah, you're right, you'll never win again. the only reason he backed down is top rnc officials said the move would call him tens of millions of dollars. part of the equation is legal bills. now you see it's not just legal bills associated with the election but personal legal bills associated to the case in new york. >> jonathan karl, thank you very much. his new book is entitled "betrayal: the final act of the trump show." jonathan, thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll turn to a pair of other stories making major headlines this morning, the devastating hit and run in wisconsin, where a suspect with a long rap sheet is now facing a host of charges. >> and was let out on a thousand dollars bail after trying to run somebody else over. another stunning moment in the trial of those accused of murdering ahmaud arbery. a defense attorney shocked the courtroom with her description of a man shot and killed while jogging last year in georgia. you're watching "morning joe." we'll 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murder. >> their decision to attack ahmaud arbery in their driveway because he was a black man running down the street. >> could have a gun and he definitely has fists. >> reporter: arbery was spotted on surveillance video several times walking through a home under construction but never observed committing any crime by travis mcmichael, gregory mcmichael or rodney bryant, according to the attorneys. the defendant claiming self-defense. >> shot him. he he could have had a gone. this is a life-or-death situation. >> and then he shot and killed them not because he's a threat to them but he wouldn't stop and talk to them. >> reporter: the defense says the pursuit came in the midst of a neighborhood wide crime spree and alleged travis mcmichael tried multiple times to communicate with him peacefully. >> you can't create the situation and then go, i was defending myself. >> reporter: now outside this georgia courthouse, members of the new black panther party chant for accountability and a grieving mom, listening to arguments also heard this -- >> turning ahmaud arbery into a victim after the choices that he made does not reflect the reality of what brought ahmaud arbery to satilla shores in his khaki shorts with no socks to cover his long, dirty toenails. >> reporter: with than an aud automobile wow from arbery's mother, who briefly left the courtroom. >> regardless of what kind of toenails he had, what size legs he had, that was still my son. and my son actually was running for his life. >> reverend al, i mean dehumanizing a man who was shot dead for walking through a neighborhood, jorging through a neighborhood, absolutely disgusting but it goes along with what the defense has been doing all along, when they're attacking, quote, black people like you and saying what would happen if kentucky fried chicken mascots, more faces sat on the back row. it's been one disgusting plea to raise after another. i mean, i'm a white guy. i -- when i lived in pensacola, florida, sat on the beach, you know, wore flip-flops. nobody ever talked about my unmanicured dirty toenails. again, the insanity of this all, it's an attempt to dehumanize a dead black man who was shot for being in the wrong neighborhood. >> clearly, it is an attempt to due humanize him, to make him almost, you know, like an animal. long, uncleaned toenails, is to play upon what they hope to be some of the racial photos, pictures, perceptions in the minds of some of the jurors, 11 of them white. and i think it is disgusting. and what i most feel for is the mother and father who have to sit and listen to that. i hope to join them before the verdict comes in. to sit there 4r looking at the trial of your son is hard enough but to a defense attorney to dehumanize and make references that your son was some kind of animal who needed socks to cover his paws, that's probably what she was thinking and alluding to, and you have to sit there and take that and then you have to ask somebody why you need a minister, why you need somebody to sit there in court? the humiliation of this is startling when the son, unarmed, just walked into a construction site that we've seen videos of whites walking through, he's dead because of that but you're going to dig him up and kill him and humiliate him again. he's unpardonable in my opinion. >> rev, you're back down in brunswick a little later today. what is the sense with the family? what is the sense of people watching the case, and what was the sense of the prosecutors right down there, how this may shake out? i mean, it looks based on the facts pretty clear cut but you talk about the jury 11-1, 11 white jurors, and we know where the venue is. we know the defense team thought this might be a friendly venue, less keep it there. how is it looking as you talk to people down there? >> people there are hopeful. wanda, his mother was on "politicsnation" over the weekend. she thinks that she has optimism, she thinks they're going to win. i have sat in so many courtrooms where i thought they were going to win that they didn't that i'm very cautious about it. but people are hopeful. i think the defense language throughout this trial has been so insulting that there's an anger there. and we just hope justice comes about. clearly, i think that there's been an irresponsibility on the defense. i must say the prosecution seems to have done a competent job but you never know what you don't know until the verdict comes in and i hope that the verdict is something that is appropriate with the evidence that was before it, because the defense attorneys really never justified what their clients did, in my judgment from what i saw, they characterized more what ahmaud did. i don't know how you characterize an unarmed man walking through a construction site that others did. so i think they probably had a hill they couldn't climb. but i think more than this case is on trial here. given the timing of this right after kenosha, a lot of the way we look at criminal justice in this country is going to be decided in their courtroom, in this city and in georgia in brunswick, georgia. and i hope we've shown that we're a better nation than we were 20, 40 years ago. coming up -- the latest developments in that deadly crash on sunday at a christmas parade in wisconsin. what police are saying about the suspect who was behind the wheel. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back ina moment they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ this is the new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but whatever work becomes... the servicenow platform will make it just, flow. whether it's finding ways to help you serve your customers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? what's an office? or solving a workplace challenge that's yet to come. whatever the new world of work takes your business, the world works with servicenow. we're turning to this, learning new details about the deadly crash at a christmas parade in waukesha, wisconsin. nbc news national correspondent tommy llamas has the latest. >> reporter: in the town of waukesha, families usually hustle to get a good spot for the christmas parade. this year, the scramble was to escape. holiday cheer quickly turned to terror and carnage. >> i got 30 people down! 30 people down! >> reporter: it was just after 4:30 on sunday when this red suv plowed through barricades on waukesha's main street, barreling into marchers and families in the crowd. here you can see the vehicle just missing a little girl dancing on the parade route. >> people started screaming. >> reporter: james touchtone described the moment he says he saw people up close. he was shooting this video of his daughter's high school marching band when you could see the suv suddenly swerve. he was plowing through people? >> yes, no brake lights or stopping, just plowing through people. >> reporter: as the band played their last newt, cruisers ran down main street, firing shots to stop the suv. how many victims were there? >> so many people, so many. >> reporter: five are dead, ranging in age from 52 to 81. virginia sorenson, jane kulick, leanna owen, tamara durand and william hosel. three of the victims part of the walking dancy grannies, along with her husband. >> i want everyone to remember how much joy they brought to everyone, how much they taught us, how much they taught us to enjoy dancing and being together and being a family. >> reporter: 48 others were injured, 18 others taken to wisconsin children's hospital. six children remain in critical condition. >> what i saw out of chaos and tragedy was heroes, first responders coming together. >> main street right now is one massive crime scene wrapped in police tape. you can tell how quickly the families here had to evacuate because there are abandoned strollers and kids' wagons and chairs spread out all along the parade route. a suspect is in custody, 39-year-old darrell brooks from milwaukee. police say the incident began with a domestic disturbance and he has a long criminal history. earlier this month brooks was charged with battery and domestic abuse after the mother of his child said he intentionally and without consent ran her over with his vehicle. he was released from jail just 11 days ago after posting $1,000 bail, according to the milwaukee district attorney, who called that inappropriately low considering brooks' criminal history. the holiday parade, a 60-year-old tradition, will now forever be remembered for all of the wrong reasons. >> that was nbc's tom llamas with that report. really inappropriately low, a thousand dollar bail for domestic abuse and trying to run over the mother of his child. i mean, this is what we hear, we hear horror stories like this in new york city. you hear it all the time. i hear it too. it's one of the reasons no-cash bail that people on the far left love to talk about but people who live in new york city and are dealing with skyrocketing crime, it's why that was a huge issue in the new york's mayor's race and eric adams said, hey, we've got to pump the brakes. we got to make sure people who are committing violent acts and committing gun crimes aren't back out on the street like in a couple hours. >> yeah, or at least give the judges discretion to say, wait a minute, this person is a danger to society and he should not be back out on the street right now. that's part of the problem in new york, judges have no discretion. in the meantime in waukesha as we just heard, you have six kids, six children lying in critical condition. we're sending out prayers to their friends and family this morning. coming up -- a new look at a powerful project from acclaimed filmmaker ken burns. why he says being american means reckoning with our violent history. 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[gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ xfinity rewards are our way of thanking you just for being with us. ♪ ♪ enjoy rewards like movie night specials. xfinity mobile benefits. exclusive experiences, like the chance to win tickets to see watch what happens live. andy cohen: hey! it's me! and tasty recipes from bravo's top chef cheftestants that'll have you cooking like a pro. the longer you've been with us... the more rewards you can get. join for free on the xfinity app our thanks. your rewards. this is the sand creeksite. the 391st national park service unit. the first and only to include the word "massacre" in its title. there's a dangerous narrative that presents patriotism as a false choice. to be patriotic, it claims, is to remember and celebrate only our nation's triumphs to choose otherwise, to choose to remember our failings is anti-american. patriotism is more complicated. i want to tell you the story of a tragic sand creek massacre and why the national park service saw the importance of acknowledging a dark chapter in american history. >> that's just a look at part 6 the new opinion documentary by acclaimed filmmaker ken burns titled "being american means reckoning with our violent history." the short piece is running at washingtonpost.com. ken joins us now, ken, i just feel the need to say this because we live in an age where people are pigeonholed. you must be patriotic or someone who hates america. i just want to remind you that your body of work for most part has long celebrated america. the america experience. thomas jefferson. and, again, our culture. so, so, two truths. two things can be true at the same time. yes, we can celebrate that. but itless is important that we do take a long, hard, cold look at our failings and our blind spots in the past. so, we can better address them moving forward. >> that's exactly right. and that's the purpose of this we had going with the philanthropist david rubinstein called "luna, which allows you to look at the way of our complicated past, and we have to acknowledge it's complicated past informs our present moment. now that history has been hijacked by politics which is a binary system on or off, where somehow everything is black or white, it's either wrong or right. and things are much more interesting, complicated. there's undertow and in the sand creek massacre, it was labeled for years and years as a battle. it wasn't, volunteer arm guys just after president lincoln's re-election went in and massacred 150 unarmed cheyenne and arapaho mostly women and children and elderly people. and it got listed in a roll call of battles thought to liberate the state of colorado. to the great credit of our nation, night horse campbell, a republican, joe, fought for the creation of the sand creek massacre. people, school kids visit there, soldiers visit there. nobody is diminished by having a complicated past. people are enriched. our country is in fact greater for acknowledging the things it's gonen wrong as well as celebrating things we've gotten right. you're right. my work is i'm uninterested in the cloying unpatriotism and but revisionism. our history is much more important that it's been held, hijacked by too many people in the political sphere for whom facts do not matter. >> right, ken, we heard earlier about lbj and his implicated past. the fact he was a segregationist who moved towards the most sweeping civil rights in this nation's history. you can look at things that obviously lincoln said and did throughout his career. yet, he emancipated slaves. extraordinary life history. and here you say, not just people, but life events. so tell me, what precipitated this attack? >> well, what was happening was that 18 ft. laramie carved out a number of indian peoples land. and there were incidents of violence so the troops were rounded up to go and get rid of it. but governor john evans had said, you know, you can go if you're peaceful into these little places. but that didn't matter for john shillington, a methodist minister and union colonel who went in and oversaw this massacre. u.s. grant said this is nothing short of this. nobody was held accountable and as i said it migrated into mythology that this has been a battle, it wasn't, it was a massacre. but how great a country are with, show, we have more than 400 sites, some of celebrate not just sand creek, but massacres on the great plains, shanksville, p.a. we have plantations, slave homes, crude dwellings that made the comfortable life of the plantation owner. a good country acknowledges where it's been. and, therefore, has a way of understanding where it is and where it's going. this is just history 101. and that's unfortunate -- you know, i'm working in a great film of lbj and the great society because it is so interesting, joe with all of that undertow. i'm working on an edition of the holocaust. if it's taught, someone has to come in and allow a holocaust denier to come in and say it didn't happen. to be a country is to disregard the facts and this project is a way to curate the facts of our past. >> and reverend al and willie and i were talking about this, i spent my life obsessed with american history. i had no idea the extent of the tulsa race massacre, until earlier this year, when there was a commemoration of are the 100th anniversary. we need to know about these things in our past so we can move towards being a more perfect union. >> there were dozens of tulsas as reverend al knows in those years. it was not just oh, tulsa was a thing that happened once oh, george floyd. this is something that has been going on in everyday america hundreds of years. >> i think it's important to put it out there. and i think what ken is doing, you can't grow until you know what you're growing from. and i also think you get a deeper appreciation for those movements that were peaceful, women's suffrage, that dr. king did, all the way up until now. you can't appreciate the encouragement of the nonviolent movements if you don't understand that concept of massacres and violence of history. i think it does a real service so we know where we're growing from and better at. because all of us in our own lives have had to evolve. we need to know that the nation has evolved, ken. >> reverend, you're exactly right, i think quoting dr. king is exactly appropriate to what you said. i mean, our current political dynamic is to make a "them" out of everybody that is an "us." and what i've understand in 50 years of doing this there's only us, there's no them. and dr. king said all people are caught in an inescapable nature of humanality caught in a destiny. if you want a destiny that's more person as our constitution suggests our union can become. you have include everybody, you can't make them of anybody. you also have to tell the truth. facts matter. >> mike barnicle. >> ken, there's a larger theme here, i think. and it is a fact that we simply do not teach the whole american story to school children, beginning in first, second, third and fourth grades. their history books are literally cartoons. what do we do about getting to a point where we begin courageously to tell the whole wonderful and sometimes awful american story? >> well, i think you're not going to start off until preschoolers and first graders, all of the aspects of the awful, this is a graduated program. but what you can't do is get trapped in the slow-moving rain that it's all perfect. you know, as texas is trying to make sure we do. we only tell kind of a positive version. we don't say there's any culpability or any responsibility or any atonement that needs to take place with regard to the fact that we held human beings as chattel slaves at the same time that we were proclaiming that all men were created equal. the hypocrisy that's is present is part of our story. and as reverend al suggests the way we outgrow these things is by understanding them. we know that with our own personal problems, with our own relationships we begin, right, by telling a history that is true and honest. and capable. kids are capable of understanding contradiction. school groups are going to sand creek. they're looking at the word massacre, hearing this thing and going, that's too bad. how did that happen? we're just asking questions. nobody is saying this group is bad. this group is good. they're saying bad things happen amidst the extraordinary things that have occurred in the story of the united states, which has been my beef for 50 years. >> it has. and you've done it better than anybody in these documentaries. you know, i love this country so much, and that means i love facing down our failings. and celebrating our greatness and, ken burns, you help us do both. thank you so much. you can watch the new opinion documentary at washingtonpost.com. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪