two >> will go inside the courtroom where this guy defending himself fairly sites mine come, plus, also fuel executives face congress over climate change and disinformation. >> some of us have to actually live the future that you all are sitting on fire, for us. >> and also michael lewis on the missed opportunity of america's filled covid response, when all in starts right now. good evening from new york i'm chris hayes you've heard a lot from people in politics like myself, it's got a bunch of different formulations but go somewhat like this, if you like sausages you should never watch -- you probably heard it. there's a reason to think cliché, and that is injured millions upon millions of meeting people across the world enjoy sausage, i'm one of them, it is delicious. but you 100% do not want to know what is in it, or watch how it is made. the same can be said for legislation, you might be happy with the under assault, you might not like it that much, but you don't want anything to do with the path of watching a get made. so, we are seeing that on this play right now with the democrats big climate social spending bill. our view on this, editorially, as generally not to cover the billions announced in the negotiations, because even as somebody who covers this for a living i find maddening, i find extremely confusing and tolerable. we will set up a segment on the billionaires text tonight, and it's like oh it's gone. that's that, there is some real tangible news today with covering and we will take a moment to think about it. the democrats have unveiled a new compromise version of the bill it has the white house approval. this version they think, who knows, might actually be able to become law. as of now it has 1.7 five trillion dollars over ten years, it includes a bunch of revisions on the climate and medicare, and childcare, but it leaves out some of the most popular proposals that democrats have been championing for years. before we do all that, it is probably important to take a step back exempt ourselves from the relentless presentism of the new cycle, and this is how we got to this point, where the democrats have slashed this proposed 3.5 trillion dollar agenda and a half. but also where they are considering spending 1.7 five trillion dollars on social welfare and climate change programs. think back to 11 months ago joe biden was elected president, it took about two weeks to count votes, we didn't know that it was gonna happen. we knew that democrats were likely to lose how seats, it looked touch and go. it also look like mitch mcconnell was going to remain the senate majority leader, it wasn't clear at the beginning of the georgia races we're going to go to a runoff. in other words, president biden was going to be presiding over divided congress. he would be a lean back from the start, unable to pass any legislation. but thanks to a truly progressive get out the vote effort, and very role run campaigns by two -- . democrats managed to defy the odds to win both runoff senate races in georgia, remarkable, and improbable. january 5th that happened, and it secured them unified control of the government, at least both houses of congress on the white house. with that control, suddenly there was a new vision of what our future could be. joe biden could bring some lasting change in the country. here is the newly anointed chucks summer back in january, we have turned the page to a -- full of hope. this will be an exceptionally busy inconsequential period for the united states senate, there is much to do, and we are ready to get to work. >> and that hope was made good, it was paid down as it were, cashed out, by the very swift passage of a 1.9 trillion dollar covid relief bill, which seemed to signal that democrats were willing to embrace progressive policies, thousands of dollars for families and checks, and covid relief, and covid insurance, money for schools, transportation and big cities that were bleeding out from covid. even biden, who ran as the -- progressive wing of the democratic party was ascended intellectually and heard terms of how the party was thinking about things. senator sanders of vermont, the democratic socialist, probably the left most member of the caucus was in charge of the budget. members of the house were -- taxing the very wealthy and expanding the social safety net to look more like our peer wealthy democracies. there was also a probable feeling, i say this as someone who cover the brock abawi years, the democrats learn from the mistakes of the obama years but they were knocking him get bogged down in bad faith arguments from the -- demand consensus or increasingly ratifies the democratic party. -- joe biden could oversee the kind of transformational presidency we saw under franklin roosevelt and lyndon johnson. now the cynics, or skeptics for say, have ultimately be proven rain certain ways. it is pretty clear whatever the democrats to accomplish, although it could be a law, it won't be the scale of the massive consequential potential political agendas that reshape america for decades. here is a snapshot of some of the senate majorities under presidents fdr and lbj, when these men accomplish them was the most successful welfare packages. they had overwhelming democratic majorities. two thirds in the senate. here is the current makeup of the senate in case you forgot, a 50/50 split with kamala harris serving as a tie breaking vote. this means that the most democratic senators, their names are familiar to us all, joe manchin, and kyrsten sinema, have total veto power over the entire agenda. the two have for the last few months, truly shipped away at the democrat's priorities, demanding to increase -- no discernible reason other than an ideological version to spend money to make conditions better for people, and or perhaps a desire to please their -- who don't like some of the stuff. that brings us to our current moment, democrats have unveiled their new compromise bill. thanks to manchin and sinema it does not contain some of the most popular proposals that democrats have loaded, for instance letting medicare negotiate prices. they asked a mail would save less money for the government, fiscally responsible, save 450 billion dollars over ten years, and was a popular? oh yes it was. 82% of independence, and 71% of republicans. or a paid family leave plan despite the fact that the u.s. is one of only seven, count them seven, when she's in that big world of ours that does not at least offer paid leave to the mothers who just had babies. so manchin and sinema, have -- although apparently the vulnerable house democrats worried, president biden's approval rating has taken a dive during these ugly public negotiations. you probably know that. but it does also remind you that before january 6th donald trump lowest approval reading was not before his impeachment rating, it was in december 2017. what was going on then? republicans were negotiating their wildly unpopular tax cuts, because nobody likes watching the sausage get made. listen, i think it's fair to say any of the compromise along the way only serves to make the legislation materially worse, and less -- . but also it is the case that one point them chilean dollar package as a lot. it is the largest climate investment i have seen in my life. in fact it seems increasingly possible, here's the bullish case. one year from now as we approach the midterms, again get out of the day-to-day news cycle, where are things going to be next fall? will we be vaccinated? will we have put a stake to the heart of covid? will president ba didn't bc hearing an economy better than the one he has inherited with the supply kings that hasn't worked out? will people feel in their lives the material effects of child care subsidies and a renewable childcare tax credit thanks to the ambitious bills that were ushered through the senate? all of that is not just a possibility, it might be an outcome, that's worms using to look at where things stand right now. senator murphy from connecticut as one of the senators who signed on that package, and he joins me now. how are you thinking about today's developments, senator? >> i think that what you are seeing come together is extraordinary and historic. i think you are right to look at this year as a whole, i think joe biden's first year will go down as possibly the first consequential an impactful first year of any president in our lifetime. he has cut childhood poverty in half because of the american rescue plan, he has passed the biggest onetime investment in infrastructure, rebuilding roads bridges infrastructure. and through the build back better agenda universal pre-k, a cap on childcare cost as you mentioned by a mile the biggest investment in the nation's history. and an increase in taxes on corporations, millionaires, and billionaires, to pay for it also we are not powering on our children in order to pay for these investments. yes there are big things that are not in this bill, but taken together with the infrastructure bill in the rescue plan, i don't know that you can match up another president in their first year who has made a bigger impact on peoples lives. >> i want to talk about the drug pricing aspect of this. because i have to say i think you -- this is why alyssa loughlin said who is in a swing district in michigan, no normal person can't understand why we can't negotiate for a jog passes. so when they say they can't pass that i am frustrated with the other side of the aisle because my home party is just a simple thing to do. >> one of the dynamics to think about here which is a little bit of herded from things i have covered before, you have swing district members saying please, please, the polls well in my district, iran on this. essentially being vetoed by two senators who are like no. >> yes but that's the consequence of a 50/50 senate, this is the slimmest democratic majority in the history of the country, the slimmest of all majorities will by the end of the year have passed the most consequential set of social policies in our lifetime. i think that you need to stay tuned on the question of prescription drug cost controls, we were negotiating throughout the day to add some of those provisions back, including some negotiation of prescription drugs. i would not be surprised if by monday, or tuesday, when the house rings of this bill, the reform including negotiation, maybe not all of the negotiation that progressives want, but significant negotiation prices isn't that bill. >> that's interesting and gets to another thing, now having done the sausage metaphor, a question about how you stuff to me in the casing. one of the things that is fascinating to me here, you meet people who have taken civics or watch schoolhouse rock on this committee system, these committees work on different areas of expertise, they have chairs, staff, the means are notoriously expert and how the tax care works. here you have a weird thing because you have the committees doing stuff, but then you have manchin and sinema. so the negotiations are happening in a weird way where it's like i have this tax idea, we'll go ask joe, go ask your skin, it has to go over to them, but they don't have the institutional knowledge to okay the stuff, because they are not the people who are the chairs of the relevant committees. it seems weird in that way. >> well yes and no. every single one of us is elected and empowered to make decisions for ourselves, notwithstanding whether or a committee chair or not. this is always the problem when you are making sausage, that you are dealing with legislators that aren't subject matter area experts. but i have been involved in these negotiations with kyrsten sinema over the brick script and drug negotiation provision. she is very smart. she does not share my views. but i don't know the deficit here is one of her knowledge. right now it's that her opinion is just fundamentally different than some of the rest of us. but again, there are pieces of this that are still being negotiated, not many, but this is one of them. and i still think we may be able to add something. >> when people look at the political terrain right now, what is -- what do you look at and see? because look, we know the thermostat opinion, the party has unified government, there is a mobilization in the opposition, people are looking forward to virginia, this question about will democrats deliver not, what do you think of that as what matters, six nine months from now? for the politics of all of this? >> listen, i think people are openly questioning whether democracy works for them any longer, they are openly entertaining other offers, which is why trump's new authoritarianism appeals to so many voters. so, this is our opportunity to show people that democracy, can demonstrably change their lives, so that is why it is important that a few of these investment, pretty immediately, make tangible changes. the childcare investment is one of those people, people are gonna be paid less for childcare. like severe, or this year and they're gonna notice. second, i think it's really important for us to show that we are taking something from the hubs. people are not satisfied just to do, better they also want to know that we are sort of rebalancing the economy, so i'm going to go out there and just as aggressively talk about the tax increase on billionaires, and millionaires. the minimum corporate tax that is built into this, phil so that amazon actually pay something into the government. just as i am going to talk about the social investments, so i think that that is an important script for us to follow moving forward, to tell people what they are getting. but also tell people that we're taking something from the, folks that frankly have been fleecing the regular folks in this country for the last two decades. >> my favorite detail of the propublica reporting on jeff bezos was him filing to get the child tax credit. because he qualified because he had zero income. >> senator chris murphy, i think you very much, i appreciate. it today, a group of white supremacists appeared in court standing trial for their role in organizing the unite the right rally in charlottesville, that turned deadly four years ago. and while today was just the opening statement, the fact that if you have the defendant chose to forgo legal representation led to some jaw-dropping moments including neo-nazi, who favourably sided mind comes, and bragged about his radio show. our talk show reported who was there for it all, next. , next facing expensive vitamin c creams with dull results? olay brightens it up with new olay vitamin c. gives you two times brighter skin. hydrates better than the $400 cream. in business, setbacks change everything. so get comcast business internet and add securityedge. it helps keep your network safe by scanning for threats every 10 minutes. and unlike some cybersecurity options, this helps protect every connected device. yours, your employees' and even your customers'. so you can stay ahead. get started with a great offer and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. there is now been four years call today. since the violent white nationalist in charlotte, virginia, the duster make image of that week are very hard to forget. hundreds of far-right protesters, white nationalists, you are nazis, members of the kkk, gathered in charlottesville for a rally against the city's decision to remove a statue of confederate general robert e. lee. the night before the plant unite the white right rally, a group of white nationalist march from the campus university of virginia. they carried the tiki torches and chanted phrases, including white lies matters, just will not replaces, and the nazis -- the next morning things got even worse. the city descended and violence, as far-right groups encountered protesters clashed in the street. the governor declared a state of emergency and the rally was canceled. then tragedy struck in the afternoon when a violent white nationalist plowed his car into a group of counter protesters, killing 32 year old heather. today the trial began against the organizers of the rally. it is not a criminal child, it's a simple one. one of the defendants is crafted or, he became known as the crying nazi after posting a video of himself weeping when a warrant was issued for his arrest in the wake of the rally. he is already been convicted criminally a battery and assault for his actions in charlottesville. buzzfeed reported that camp while who is defending himself in the civil trial, because no lawyer has been able to tolerate his antics. prepared for trump by watching tucker carlson, fox news host, with white supremacists in prison and getting legal advice from any nazi. that is an interesting choice. within the first minute of his opening statement in court today, cantwell quoted adolf hill lawyers my call, he then later do use the n-word according to reporters listening. one of those reporters found the trial, in charlottesville, is liz wentz, a con distributor in the post when she wrote about -- now could bring down a new generation of extremist, and liz coverage who i was covering all day today, joins me. now it is great to have you on this. before we get to what happened today. you wrote about the theory of the case, i wonder if you could just get out for folks who have been following this, this is a civil lawsuit, under a law from the 19th century. what is the lawsuit alleged, and how is it being tried? >> in 1871, ulysses ask grand for this sweeping legislation that he was swiftly granted something that doesn't really happen these days, but it basically allowed civil suits against specifically designed to dismantle the kkk. it allowed a civil lawsuit against anyone who restricts their civil rights ability to travel, your ability to move freely. and that landmark legislation was able to basically dismantle the kkk after the civil war. and it dismantled them for a long time until about the 20th century when we've seen a resurgence of white supremacists violence. so this case is one of the most expensive uses of the kkk, it acts as an 1871 law in modern day, and they are trying to, the lawyers, the plaintiffs lawyers, are trying to soothe the white supremacist out of the existence. so that is what's going on. >> so, under this 1871 clan act, which again was created in response to the sort of white supremacist terrorists who have risen in the wake of the reconstruction in the south that we're using violent means and intimidation to stop black goats from voting, stop black votes from reassembly, this creates civil liability for people that engage in the white supremacist activities designed to restrict peoples civil rights. the theory of the case here, is these people up a night rally did this. and they are now civilly liable. >> yes. >> they are facing trial today, what happened on day one, who was there, and what did you observe? >> well, we have had a couple day of jury selection, and today was opening statements. we saw very right in the beginning, we saw the plaintiffs saying, you know they had been beaten, and had their civil rights restricted by the white supremacist at the rally. and they say that this was a conspiracy of violence, that violence didn't just accidentally break out. what they're alleging, and to prove through this case is that violence was planned, violence was coordinated, and that violence was the point. and then, we have the mötley crüe of defendants, two of them are defending themselves, and there is an assortment of lawyers who are all kind of trying to say, well we didn't really planted. it was kind of an accident. also, if there was planning it was everybody else's fault. so we saw that the defendants kind of throwing each other under the bus. there was chant well who decided to use his opening statement to make a lot of employment and racist remarks which were physically hard to hear. it was really uncomfortable. but what was actually even more uncomfortable was listening to other lawyers justify racism. justify chanting phrases like, you know, just go home, and even worse, which i'm not going to repeat on air. under the guise of respectability, which was, it was a really difficult day of opening statements. >> when you say cantwell, i mean i don't want to repeat verbatim, but somebody word -- inciting my comp, and favourably it sounded like a nazi rant. but i want to make sure that that tracks with what he did. because i wasn't there. >> yes, can't well told us before that he was thrown into jail, that he was a podcaster kind of shop jock and it was really cynical what he said within two sentences he was citing mine calm. he was saying basically all people are not created equal, and then worse from there. but it was, it was, you know, it came over a log and sing the rock in the bugs underneath. this is the kind of virulent racism that we as white people try to avoid, right? and we can because of the color of our skin. and what this trial is doing is making us, i think, as a nation, face the violence of the words and the violence of the rhetoric and seeing how it translates into the violence of action. >> all right, lyz lenz, who has been covering this trial, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming, up donald trump announces he will hold a teller rally for republican candidate glenn youngkin, observers fueled by the state, liars taking a polling place, just less than a week to go from the election night in virginia, we'll talk about it all next. l next introducing dermageek featuring top dermatologist recommended ingredients and 0% fillers. dermageek's new detoxifying facial serum contains twice the amount of beta hydroxy acid. it delivers two times more exfoliation for brighter skin, with dermatologist tested levels of hydration. get top derm-ingredients at a fraction of the price. try the new dermageek skincare lineup, with a money-back guarantee. we're all watching the important virginia government to -- between terry mcauliffe who was previously the governor of state before being voted out now running again, and republican glenn youngkin who spent 25 years at the private equity form the carlile group. youngkin has pretended he's not a trump republican. he said president trump -- is a republican. youngkin has promised to ban critical race theory in virginia schools if he's elected, he ran this ad a mother had to read a book for school without revealing it was the beloved by tony morrison considered to be a classic. or that her child was a high school senior taking advanced placement class. youngkin has also gone out of his way to -- foul play in the virginia lecture in, he has called for an audit of the states voting machines and has a whole section of his website calling for poll watchers and election integrity. it appears many have heeded the call, the army of so-called republican poll watchers expected turnout across the state, lisa lair is they -- covering the virginia governmental or legal race she joins me now. lisa, i want to start on sort of a meat and potatoes camping question. i followed this race like many national political observers but i haven't followed it closely, and i'm not a virginian. people talk about youngkin and education is being important, but going through the website today, is there an education proposal, or platform plank that is not about the security stuff? is there some version of george w. bush's big, we will do this this and this, high stakes testing, etc, or is it just under the way of saying the crtc staff? >> it's sort of another way of offering this big rally price for a lot of things that motivate his conservative a base. crtc of course there's an academic concept that is not taught till college or lost tool, so it's not something tie in virginia schools. but it's also something that rattles them up to the polls like mask mandates, vaccine mandates, things around transgender students, what pronouns they should be called, house they should be treated. so it's not an education plan per se in the way of thinking about it as an observer and voter, and apparent. it's not like that. it's more a rally up his supporters in an election that will be overwhelmingly determined by which side gets more of their people out. >> that's not to say it's not an issue, obviously there are parents who care about the staff. but i just want to be clear that it wasn't missing something, because i've covered races that are about education, teacher class size, high stakes testing, all these education policy issues. but it seems that we are talking about here is this anger that many parents feel that their children's education, and the control of it has been taken from them and glenn youngkin will restore, terry mcauliffe won't. that's the means to be the message. >> you really hitting at the center of political question in this whole thing, which is we know that these issues get conservatives going, we know they get the public to turn now, and frankly if you're republican and the youngkin campaign you want to get your voters to poll. it ties together the maga part of the base which is wait about things like crtc, but maybe you are more moderate republicans who are worried about vaccinating the children or something like that. so you are uniting your party under this broad issue. what we really don't know is whether it is convincingly suburban parents, or outside virginia, outside richmond, is this impacting their vote? we know crt is it's, we know that from polling. but we know they're unhappy with schools. it would be hard-pressed to find any apparent in america that would say schooling is going off them, it's not how anybody is feeling. so it will be tough on the very issue. >> i think school is going awesome actually. >> we found the one. >> i'm just so happy they're back in school. >> yeah. >> the thing about this is donald trump, donald trump loses the state by ten points, glenn youngkin is playing that he needs the maga vote but he can't embrace trump. there is a trump rally for him where they salute a flag and he has to sort of dance around it, now trump threatening to do a tally rally. do you have any reporting on that? because he's been engaged in this cat mills trolling about whether he's gonna do an event in virginia? >> oh i can confirm it is happening. he is doing a kelly town hall, for viewers who don't know with that is he's not coming to the state, but he will be on a phone call with thousands of his supporters telling people eager to go to the polls for in-person voting. so it's still a delicate dance weather youngkin shows up on that call, we don't know if that is going to happen yet. it's not clear how usable that will be for the mcauliffe campaign, this is right before the election day. >> that is a great example of trying to have it both ways. lisa, thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. >> coming up dr. deborah birx testifies on the tens of thousands of lives she says could have been saved. a claim michael author lewis discusses the trump ministration failed pandemic response. ndemic response yes i now do you believe that -- ? >> i don't believe that nicotine or our products are addictive. >> i believe in nikkhah the nicotine is not addictive >> i believe nicotine is not addicting. >> and i too believe nicotine is not addictive. >> 27 years after big tobacco as been called to capitol hill for decades the misinformation about the dangers posed by the product. executives that top oil companies were called to testify about their role of spending of decades of misinformation about their product. unlike the big tobacco executives, the ceos of shell chevron and bp testified remotely to the committee today in nice climate controlled rooms. there were grilled about the company as well documented efforts to cover up the link between fossil fuels and climate change. not any of them would admit to wrongdoing. >> today the ceos of lively just oil companies in the world have a choice, you can either come clean and and mid year in consistencies, and stop supporting misinformation or you can sit there in front of the american public and lie under oath. mr. woods ceo of exxon, do you agree that climate change is real? >> yes. >> thank you. mr. loeffler, ceo of bp america. do you agree that climate change is caused by human activities? >> yes. >> would you commit to saying you are not going to find any group that is going to engage in climate disinformation at least? >> chairman i will commit to being an active member of the -- >> oh yes the active member of the api of course is the oil industry's lobby group, the american patrol institute which has worked as long as i've been covering politics to kill a lot of climate legislation. to these hearing, we wrapped up after six hours, a little new information, but the chair of the committee promised a subpoena the oil companies to get the truth about their climate change agenda. >> we are at code red for climate. and i'm committed to doing everything i can to help rescue this planet, and save it for our children, we need to get to the bottom of the oil industry's disinformation campaign. and with these subpoenas we will. poenas w will (sfx: continued vehicle calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. how would you describe the job president trump is doing behind the scenes, and in front of the camera during these daily briefings that we're seeing. what has been your perspective doctor birx? >> he has been so attentive to the scientific literature, and the details, and the data. and i think his ability to analyze it into data, that comes out of his long history and business, is really been a real benefit during these discussions about medical issues. >> okay, all right, come on. i mean i remember seeing that. that was dr. deborah birx. the then white house covid response coordinator seeing donald trump's phrases. which again, she could've said that he really cares about this and he's good at making judgments, but analyzed the data? >> we are having the worst outbreak of covid around the world. running out of life-saving ventilators. and now we have yet another inside account of the malpractice, lying, neglect perpetuated by that man who is so good that sympathizing the data during the pandemic. and it comes from, none other than doctor birx. an interview excerpt released by the select subcommittee on the coronavirus crisis, says, the 2020 election took peoples time away from and destructive them away from the pandemic. adding that they were actively complaining and not as present in the white house as previously. as michael lewis wrote, in his incredible book about the pandemic, the administration's failure were ignored, or the flu from the top. we have seen in the testament that it insidiously persistence of vaccine refusal, and the grandstanding by current politicians. we are now in a situation where even after they have vaccines became widely available, around the, spring around april. we still lost more than 180,000 people, according to nbc's report. so what does that say? about where we are? mike lewis, the author of the book i just mentioned, called the pandemic and the pandemic, which idolizes the failures of the cdc and the trump administration to contain the coronavirus, joins me, now it's great to have in the studio. >> great to see you. chris >> great to see you. >> good to see you face-to-face. >> here's my big question for you. the book analyze is the structure filling up the american public health. from the top to the bottom. and it's not just trump. there's a bunch of other stuff. and then we got to a point where a lot of that stuff on the vaccine, proliferation, structurally got pretty fixed. logistically we are getting it out. and then we hit up against a social barrier. >> yes. >> cultural barrier. >> how do you understand that as part of the story that you told in the book? >> well, the social barrier hit was the social barrier we hit in the very beginning of the pandemic, right? where the whole idea of having a coherent strategy, where everyone followed, was dismissed. and the idea that i mean, trump basically said, every step forward for itself, and go find your own, supply and didn't kind of pooh-poohs social distancing. so strategy that we created in the united states, and pedal to the rest of the world, that was used to effectively to say, many of the lies around the world. we ourselves did not unveil ourselves to it consistently across the country, and as a result hundreds of thousands of people are dead. so, this is just all over again, right? we are sort of good at creating knowledge. and then were good at not using the knowledge recreated. we really good at giving vaccines, it's a breath taken scientific achievement. so how does it fit into the story? the premonition, you know, it's funny the character in the premonition have gotten the rap of having predicted the pandemic, and it's just because they live their lives in preparation for it. what they really did, with the premonition really is, is a premonition that we might fail. in spite of all of our resources of the privilege physician that we were in the country, before the pandemic to respond to a pandemic. there were problems that you could see. and there were two big ones. one was, the low status of the public health officer. being the main character of the book. >> an incredible. book >> an incredible character. local public health. officer looked up again and again, red fence resistance from his community to the measure that she needed to take. to stop tuberculosis from spreading. or stop meningitis outbreak on the campus. and so to actually -- >> it's like for you, and for you to tell me what to, do from the big hospitals, from the politicians. >>. because what it happened is, not only did we start that character of resources, and of thousands of them around the country that is -- it isn't the cdc running everything. you've got all of these local public health officers, state and local, and they have that. they have incredible legal powers, but they don't have a social. power and because they're low status, poorly paid, no one really understands or feels the need for them, or understood their roles. so you can see, watching which the friction that she experienced with the community, that she was going to have a warren or have she had to do something really big. and, you also saw, that she was willing going to get any backup from the senate for disease control. they had sort of removed themselves from the role of actual disease battlefield command, because it was meant seeing controversial. and turn themselves into an academic institution. that wanted to wait until they had lots and lots of data's before they made any decision. and while all of these characters would tell you, as if you wait until you have certainty, in the beginning of a, pandemic the game is over. , by the time you get the data the virus is spread. you have lost your chance to contain it. so i find, i don't know about you, but i found the situation worrying and amazing. if someone had told you that we would be looking at 750,000 dead americans. and that wouldn't be enough to unify the country behind the sensible strategy? i would've said you are crazy. i would've said this would do it. >> no it's forest -- >> but i think she would've said. no >> i thought of cherry be because one of the things that we covered is, and i'm sure you've seen this. these meetings were a public health official we've had him on, i've talked to local public health officials in national tennessee, we've talked to local putt with health officials and county of missouri. they are getting up and saying, hey, the kid should wear masks in schools or xyz. they're screamed. that we know where they. live -- >> it's worse than that right. because in 30 something states, there have been bills introduced in the license which some of the past, to reduce the authority of public health officers. i mean, we are positioning ourselves to be in a worse place, if another win comes along, we are in a better place than if we had a miracle vaccine that we know that we can repurpose from probably other viruses, but that we have reduced the authority of the people of the battlefield commanders to actually run the battle, and that we have an entrenched minority of the third of the population, that is ready to not do anything to protect their fellow citizens. >> that is my question to you. there are technical failures that have happened, right? i think some of them of the slowest by the cdc, there are some technical failures on math guidance, and then there's some deeper failure, i am really curious to hear what you say about this -- the way this shook out, ideologically, the political valence, of adhering to public health ministers, versus not. was that inevitable, or was accidental? >> well, it's a huge failure of trump's leadership. he could have, it was required as right out of the gate, that needed to be -- that the country needed to be put on a war kind of, get you need to be putting sacrifices for your country. that the thing got framed us lives versus livelihood, was really unfortunate. because it's not true. if you've got people dying in your community, people are going to be going to restaurants. >> it doesn't matter where you, are even south dakota, arizona, when the numbers go up, the economic activity goes. down >> there is something, the best natural experience is a northern country. because you have denmark and norway in sweden. and denmark and norway did a full on social distancing, sweden let the virus, or and there's been a postmortem on this. five times the deaths in sweden, than the other. to the rate of death. and greater economic costs. so it isn't either. or you are aggressively contain the, thing and you get more of your economy. so it was that way that it was, going in that firming of it was a big problem, but the framing, this sort of bizarre notion of freedom, that i should have the freedom to infect you with a deadly disease, we accept constraints are our daily lives, all of, them i am not allowed to drive john, you know, but it's like saying i'm allowed to drive drug. the way that became the current of attached to this idea of, this very odd idea that i should be able to do whatever i want to do regardless of its effect on you, that was another strain of. it won my characters ever predict that, no? >> the doctors were in the middle of the book that turned up the strategy embedded into the cdc, they never would've anticipated the cdc filling the way that it. felt but they had a sense that we are not as prepared for this as people think, they had a sense that there are these problems in rolling out the strategy, that we haven't really faced up. to >> michael lewis, it's a great joy to have you here. it's great to see you in person, the book is called the permission, and in the south. we also did a podcast. if you like that interview, you could go to watch this happening, we spoke about an hour for the, book -- >> if you don't like the interview, you don't have to go. >> you have the freedom not to. >> that is it for "all in. "right now. i want four star ratings, the whole thing. awe thanks to you at home.

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