hospital. plus, what new polling say about how results will be one -- and when all in starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. iowa republican senator charles grassley is as establishment as an establishment republican can be. he's been a significant part of the american political landscape for as long as i've been covering politics. for decades. first elected to the senate in 1980, he's currently serving his seventh term and arguably the most powerful figure in iowa politics. when last we discussed him on the show a few short days ago, he issued a rather ten den rebuttal from the senate judiciary committee which tracked a number of new revelations and confirmed detail about just how hard donald trump treed to effectuate a coup and install himself in power against the will of the people. and this weekend, grassley appeared at trump's rally in iowa and i have to say, what he said was incredible. real rare moment of honesty. something that can often be lacking in the occasionally dishonest trade of politics. senator grassley seemingly said exactly what he was thinking as he accepted trump's endorsement at that rally. >> i was born at night, but not last night. so if i didn't accept the endorsement of a person that's got 91% of the republican voters in iowa, i wouldn't be too smart. i'm smart enough to accept that endorsement. >> okay, be clear. that was it. donald trump endorses grassley. he gets up there, says that. doesn't say anything else about trump. oh, he's such a great guy or made america great again. he did not say a good word because obviously there is nothing good to be said. he stated a set of facts that are true. donald trump is very popular among republicans and senator grassley is a republican and so he's going to stand up there and smile and through kind of gritted teeth, accept trump's endorsement because iowa is not senator grassley's state anymore. no matter how many terms this 88-year-old served. iowa and the republican party belong to trump. it doesn't matter how close he came to murdering american democracy or how eager he is to do it again. which if you are an elected republican, it's at least a possibility, more likely a probability. the national politician doesn't hold a rally in iowa. the crucial first in the nation caucus state without at least considering a run for the white house. grassley and trump know that. but the fact of the matter is even 88-year-old, seven-term senators who are in the pantheon of republican politicians in this country need trump's support. or at least the lack of his opposition to stay in power or maybe they feel like they do frankly. i think it's a little untested if chuck grassley told donald trump to go to hell, what would happen. it's hard to figure out where perception ends and reality begins. in the end, it doesn't matter because grassley was up there. he is effectively endorsing trump and that's really the calculation the entire party's making. listen to congressman steve scalise. it means he's the second most powerful person in the house and here he is on fox news just over the weekend refusing to answer the one question most likely to anger the former president. >> do you think the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump? >> well, chris, i've been very clear from the beginning. if you look at a number of states, they didn't follow their state-passed laws that govern the election for president. >> so you think the election was stolen? >> what i said is there are states that didn't follow their set rules. >> last time, i promise. do you think the election was stolen or not. >> it's states that did not follow the laws set which the institution says they're supposed to follow. when you see states like georgia cleaning up some of the mess and people calling that jim crow law, that's a flat out lie. >> the argument here to the extent there is one, it's the holly crews argument. the election was stolen because states made it easier for people to vote while a deadly virus was killing americans. not quite being stated, but essentially boils down to the simple argument, the election was fraudulent because donald trump didn't win. it's dishonest to claim the 2020 election was riddled with illegally cast votes because it wasn't. but it's toxic in a different way to suggest it was tainted by legally cast vote for the candidate you hoped would lose. there is some additional context here, but it's worth remembering. the two bits of sound we playing you over the weekend. this is what's happening right now as i speak to you. after the january 6th insurrection flocked back to trump's side. but while all this is happening, the figure at the center of it, donald trump, is not trying to change the subject or moderate his message, he's getting more radical, more extreme about his election laws and the attack on the capitol. it was kind of shocking months ago when trump started publicly taunting the police officer who fatally shot a capitol rioter as she was attempting to storm through a broken window and into a lobby near where members of congress were actually present, sheltering with a angry, destructive mob at her back. that's the moment she lost her life. she was shot by a police officer that prevented her from doing that. donald trump released a statement saying we know who the officer is. now he's gone a step further and taken up martyrdom. >> we must all demand justice for ashley and her family. so on this solemn occasion as we celebrate her life, we renew our call for a fair and nonpartisan investigation into the death of ashli bobbitt. >> the purpose of trump's involvement here is about the perceived nobility of what she was doing. in support of a larger movement to violently overthrow the duly elected government of the united states and it's a project donald trump remains committed to. when he calls the election rigged and says it was quote, a day of protesting the fake election results. he is endorsing it. over and over. even in light of all that, we are seeing the chuck grassleys of the world and everyone else at the party taking his endorsement and defending him on tv. the larger point here one made last week among others is a point we have cited on this show. as long as donald trump remains the likely nominee of the republican party, as long as he is the presumptive guy on the ballot in 2024, there is no way to separate the republican party as an entity from the authoritarian aspirations of trump himself. they are a conduit for his aspirations. they are the vehicle he is driving. assisting the republican party as a party, as an institution, in any capacity is enabling trump's attempts to subvert american democracy. the never trump conservatives argue the short-term goal stopping donald trump means refusing to cooperate with the republican political project at all. quote, rational republicans are losing the gop civil war. the only near term way to battle pro-trump extremists is for all of us to team up on key races and overarching bill goals. miles taylor is one of the co-author, along with christine whitman. he served in the department of homeland security under president whose leadership he criticized in an anonymous essay and book. miles, this struck me as an interesting point. but also for christine, who is a, you know, republican in good standing. had been a republican in good standing, even if critical of donald trump, i think she still considers herself a republican, but it's not enough to criticize and effectively neutral, but this is zero sum and you have to work for one entity over the other. >> yeah, look, chris. i'll be honest with you. this is not an easy thing for christie or i to say. we're lifelong republicans. we wanted the party to succeed. but you said it earlier. it's become the cult of personality. the party of donald trump and what's worse, an authoritarian institution and again, i don't say that lightly. i feel that angry phone calls and messages from fellow republican friends today who said, come on, trump's already out of office, what do you mean, we shouldn't retake the house and senate? what we're taking about inside the gop is that these are not real republicans anymore. they haven't earned it. then getting the congress back would pose a danger to the country. what do i mean specifically about not real republicans? we used to define what it meant to be conservative as free minds, markets and free people. right now what we're seeing in the party is closed minds, an approach towards market that's protectionist and not an approach that emphasizes free people, but authoritarianism in the style of donald trump. they haven't earned taking back the congress. haven't worked in bipartisan fashion. they've continued to spout trump's lies and the danger is obvious to all of us. especially if kevin mccarthy is speaker of the house in the lead up to the 2024 election. given everything we saw, we can't trust my own party to lead the house of representatives in the lead up to 2024. >> you just said you fielded angry phone calls. who was left that's persuadable on this? when you write a piece in the "new york times," i'm glad you did. are there people in the persuadable middle in the echelons of the republican party who are open to seeing this or is everyone is polarized in the maga or never trumper world? >> no one's ever asked me that question and i think the answer is clear. there are few republicans left to be persuaded. there's no question that the maga side and the gop civil war. that's not what's significant here for what we're discussing. what's significant is that there are actually, even though it's a smaller group, millions of rational republicans. what i call the rational remnants of the gop who are a relatively silent cohort, but who also did throw the last election in large part for joe biden and who still can be mobilized in these key races. so those republicans who couldn't support donald trump, couldn't stomach it, we are now calling on them to get involved in their congressional and senate races to do the same to keep the trump gop out of power in this next cycle and we think we can do that. in fact, this week, we're going to release a slate of those candidates, unifying democrats, a few courageous republicans we want to protect and some independents that are going to be running under the renew america banner that we hope will be a fire wall against kevin mccarthy becomes the speaker of the house. >> there's also projects happening at the state level. this is from "usa today" today. at least two third of the 15 contenders speak the nominee in the republican state in five battlegrounds. arizona, georgia, michigan and wisconsin. have said the 2020 election was stolen or passed down on the results. were trying to get america first, secretaries of state across the country were concentrated in swing states. what do you think about that? >> we've got halloween coming up and i read stuff like that, i think it's spooky as hell. scarier than anything i've seen on netflix. this is not just a federal issue. the big lie has seeded itself deeply into communities around the country and these state and local races that are so important. you've got to think political parties are built from the ground up and not the top down. so right now at the grass roots of the republican party, the ma grk has become a litmus test. who are going to be the administration of our elections, the integrity of our vote. that is very scary to our vote. i oversaw those efforts at the department of homeland security. i know for a fact we put in place very, very good systems such that christopher krebs, my colleague, was right when he said the 2020 election was one of the most secure in american history. but if we've got secretaries of state around the country that want to meddle in the elections the way these people do and the way trump wants them to, we're not going to see elections that are nearly as secure. >> miles taylor, thank you so much. >> thanks, chris. a democrat representing california's 19th district, sits on the committee investigating the january 6th attack. also served as impeachment manager. obviously there's the bull work of winning elections, but there's an uphill battle there. preserving the integrity, finding accountability for january 6th. where is the committee right now as that subpoena deadline passed and a lot of hand wringing and worry about whether this will mean a kind of open defiance that steals the power from what you're trying to do. >> well, we're very committed to getting all the evidence we're seeking and we need to paint the complete picture of what happened on the 6th and leading up to the 6th. we've had quite a few people come in voluntarily to the committee. we've received thousands and thousands of pages of documents. we are engaging with lawyers of three of the four individuals who have been subpoenaed. i think the ones you're referring to. but other subpoenas are issuing so it's a mixed bag. we're prepared to do everything. to use every tool that we have to get compliance where these lawfully issued subpoenas. it's really pretty terrible that someone would just decline like mr. bannon, for no valid reason, to just refuse to comply with these subpoenas. it's outrageous. >> so when you say three or four, the three that you're talking to, those are the three whose lawyers have engaged and bannon is the one who's not engaging. >> correct. we sent a letter as i intend to comply. there's no reason for that. he, you know, to the extent that there is executive privilege, it's held by the current president, not a former president. and it's about a close allies employees. mr. bannon wasn't an employee during the time in question. >> i want to play you something. part of what makes this take on some added urgency i think, the project you're engaged in, both in terms of enforcing the subpoenas, but the deeper project is that it's unfolding before our eyes. i want to show you what the ex-president, donald trump, said this weekend at a rally. he wants to define the country's current policy along the axis of the big lie. >> the single biggest issue, the issue that gets the most pull, the most respect, the biggest cheers is talking about the election fraud of 2020 presidential election. nobody's ever seen anything like it. >> i think it's a self-serving lie because people are enthused about other things, but it does present the problem that he intended to focus all the intention of the republican party on the big lie. >> yes. pretty obviously. that's his point that somehow he was a victim. there's no evidence for that. but when you have propaganda and lies, you don't need evidence. you're engaged in selling a lie and having people believe it. that's what's happened with many people and the former president. it's very dangerous. if people don't have any faith in the united states and our systems, it undercuts our democratic republic, which may be one of the former president's goals. >> thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. as the republican party's transformation into now a party of insurrection, the vehicle for another attempt at it, as it increasingly poses a threat to american democracy, the coming midterm elections, a little more than a year from now, could be crucial in protecting american democracy. for democrats -- we just got a look at the latest numbers and what they mean for democrats, big d and little d looking to hold honor to power. after this. d little d looking t hold honor to power. after this ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ the pattern for politics is that parties holds the house face a real battle in the elections. there's a kind of natural gravity moving against the party in power. we saw it in 1994 when bill clinton's approval rating was at 56%. in 2010, barack obama's approval was at 45% and the democratic majority lost seats. donald trump's rating was 40% and the republican party lost 40 house seats. right now, the democrats have unified government but the slimmest majorities. with that party, they're trying to get essentially total consensus to ask very ambitious legislation. both the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the full build back better agenda and they're doing it as the president's approval rating, which is the best predictor of future electoral performance, has gone to about 45%. that's about what you saw with barack obama and bill clinton. the question now is what does that mean for the party? how avoidable is this? how is it tied to the current legislative agenda and what do the democrats have to do in the next year to avoid blistering midterm losses. fernando is a democratic pollster based in florida. let's start with the kind of provocation here, which is that all of this stuff is structural and it doesn't really matter what the party does. that basically, the structural polarization of american politics means you've got each party's base is around 40, 45%, then the independents tend to swing against whoever's in power. what do you think of that as a theory? >> chris, i think there's some truth to that, but fundamentally, what makes this different and the historical since the prior midterm cycle where these patterns were consistent. i think facing now the problem with the covid-19 pandemic, which is according to the polling i'm seeing and everybody else is looking at, that is the be all end all issue in america today and for better or worse, all of the sausage making, the back and forth on reconciliation and the infrastructure battles are not touching the erogenous zones of what americans are most concerned about and that is covid. if there's a war room in the white house these days, i think the only thing that should be on the wall is it's the covid-19, stupid. you see a direct correlation between president biden's approval rating in the mid-may, late june period of this past summer when it looked like we were getting back to normal, but as the delta summer happens, he started to go back down. i think that's fundamentally the dynamic you're seeing play out and why we see some of these sagging approval ratings for the president. >> yeah, i like that as a kind of monocausal theory here. first of all, it jives with just my own personal, like feeling thermometer. i was feeling really psyched in may and june and then really upset that delta was reeking havoc in august and september. in some ways, that's a positive story for the white house which is to the extent you can get the country vaccinated and commune suppression suppressed that you have a june next year, a summer next year that feels like the first genuinely post-covid summer, there's political benefit there. >> that's right. it comes back to the bill for covid. we were doing focus groups the other day and talking about some of the bill. somebody said how are they going to fix it when i can't even get materials to fix my house because of supply chain issues? i think it comes back to what was president biden's central argument in the campaign? that he would be better able to litigate covid than the disaster that the trump administration saw. a lot of people think covid is ultimately what prevented trump from getting the second term and the sooner biden can laser focus on that, make sure those booster shots are out, that sense of confidence is coming back to the american people. not those in the beltway, us junkies that follow legislation. >> the point about supply chain interruptions, that flows from covid. we have this once in a century disruption, economic life, personal, family. all this stuff. the undisruption of it, the sort of reclaiming whatever's on the other side is like a fitful and difficult process. the other thing i think is interesting is this polling about one of the signature democratic initiatives, which is that child tax credit. you've got tens of millions of families with young children getting direct payments to the government, direct deposit. it's doing great things on child poverty. making it easier for folks to afford childcare or things like that. when you look at the polling, 39% say it had a major impact on financial security. only 38% of those polled credit biden for the payments. what do you make of that number? >> well, what i make of it is the numbers don't lie. and i think what we're seeing there is a testament to what the american voter is saying. they simply do not know and the biden administration for better or worse has not made that case specifically around these child tax credits and how they're impacting the american people's lives and making their lives better. we have seen just this overwhelming information zone of topics and issues. whether it be covid, afghanistan, the battle over saving democracy. and it's hard for the average every day voter to see these things. so as soon as i think they can get back, refocus, reengage, that's where we saw biden's numbers rise. that's going to be the path back to getting these numbers above water. are critical if the democrats want to hold on to the house and the senate in 2022. >> all right. thank you very much. >> thank you. here's a question for you. have you ever hid an st card full of nuclear secrets in a peanut butter sandwich then tried to sell it to a foreign country for crypto currency only to find out it was the fbi stinging you all along? that story and the charges against a navy engineer and his wife after this. wife after this. . (man 2) yeah, but we need to go higher. (man 1) higher. (man 2) definitely higher. (man 1) we're like yodeling high. [yodeling] yo-de-le-he... (man 2) hey, no. uh-uh, don't do that. (man 1) we should go even higher! (man 2) yeah, let's do it. (both) woah! (man 2) i'm good. (man 1) me, too. (man 2) mm-hm. (vo) adventure has a new look. (man 1) let's go lower. (man 2) lower, that sounds good. (vo) discover more in the all-new subaru outback wilderness. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. in 2016, i was working at the amazon warehouse when my brother passed away. and a couple of years later, my mother passed away. after taking care of them, i knew that i really wanted to become a nurse. amazon helped me with training and tuition. today, i'm a medical assistant and i'm studying to become a registered nurse. in filipino: you'll always be in my heart. ben isn't worried about retirement his personalized plan is backed by the team at fidelity. his ira is professionally managed, and he gets one-on-one coaching when he needs it. so ben is feeling pretty zen. that's the planning effect from fidelity april 1st last year, a -- mailed a brown envelope to a foreign nation. this contained restricted navy documents, an sd card with instructions how to reply and a message saying in part, i apologize for this poor translation. please forward this letter to your military intelligence agency. i believe this will be of great value to your nation. several months later, that package made its way to the fbi in the country and the next week, the fbi began its correspondence with him. they earned his trust by placing a signal at a location associated with the foreign government in washington, d.c. they sent him an initial payment of 10,000 the form of a crypto currency. he asked them for $100,000 in exchange for more documents containing information including printouts, digital media files containing technical details, and performance reports. the undercover fbi agents went on to arrange a series of dropoffs. the first was in virginia where they left a card left in plastic and placed between two slices of bread on half a peanut butter sandwich. the fbi sent him $20,000 in crypto currency if change for the information which included documents containing militarily sensitive design elements, operating parameters, and performance characteristics of virginia class submarine reactors. they run on nuclear power and deploy cruise missiles. the next dropoff took place in south central pennsylvania. this time, he hid the card in a sealed band-aid wrapper. after that, he asked for advice on how to be a better spy, writing, please tell me if a make a mistake or if you have advice on how to accomplish a task and reduce our shared risk. he asked for a total of $5 million. final successful dropoff happened in eastern virginia where he conceal and sd card in a gum package containing schematic designs. at that point, the fbi had seen enough. this weekend, they arrested them in west virginia after they placed another sd card at a preranged drop site. they will appear in federal court tomorrow. frank is a former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. now an msnbc national security contributor. this was what you did for years is run the office dealing with this. what is your reaction to the details of this story? >> well, first, thank god this turned out all right for the united states. this was narrowly averted disaster in terms of the plans, the workings of a virginia class it's a fast attack. what fascinates me about that this and what i know reporters have been working on all day is what country was it that actually cooperated and turned us on to this? this is fairly rare. even adversaries thinks this is too good to be true, must be a provocation, we're going to report this to the fbi. but this one looks like it fully cooperated. you know why. in the charging documents, it actually says that country agreed to fly at the request of the bad guys, agreed to fly a signal over what sounds like its embassy in washington on memorial day weekend of 2020, the fbi said, hey, they're asking us, they're asking, we're undercover. can you fly a signal, put a signal up in d.c. over your building and they said yes and they did it. it's a pretty cool story, but it's also a message here that this happens way too often and the message of course is espionage doesn't end well for the people trying to do it. >> well, okay. there's a few things here. one is i'm obsessed with who the country is because like if it's an allied country, like what a random, weird thing to do. just reach out to some allied country and say, like, i want to spy for you. and if it's an adversary or someone we have a relationship with, there's the question of why they cooperate as much they do. so there's that. then the motivation question. having done reporting on counterintelligence and having you know, read about teams and these famous stories, you know, usually, it's sort of ideological affiliation or money. i guess it's money here, but the motivation is really unclear. have you ever seen someone do this before where they just make an approach? >> well, the fbi has studied literally every single person in history convicted of espionage in the united states and there are commonalities. ego, bitterness and greed are major factors. i think as we dig into this, we're going to find they're bitter about something. they weren't treated right, something like that. but what's really odd is a married couple agreeing to do it. very, very strange. as to the country, we're all digging on this. it's a country they felt might benefit from our nuclear technology. now, i will note there's a lot in the charging document where one of them says to the country or undercover agent, maybe some day we'll stumble over each other at a cafe and share a bottle of wine. cafe, wine, that sounds like a certain country to me, but we'll have to find out. >> how often are there, i guess there's no like survey at the given moment to tell us how often this is. you've got what, over a million people, top secret security clearance. you've got the direct employees, the intelligence agencies. you've got, then contractors, right? you know. >> contractors. >> how many people at a given time are engaged in this kind of thing or is it just exceedingly rare? >> i wish i could tell you it was exceedingly rare. it's not. and many of these people do get approached and an undercover agent is inserted without getting into the details of how our agencies know what's happening when someone reaches out to a diplomatic establishment, but and then there's cooperation that occurs, so these get intercepted and quietly taken down often. it's not rare enough in my opinion and the question for the intelligence community and fbi counterintelligence is how to prevent people from even thinking about it in the first place. don't let this happen to you. report the person you think exhibits these symbols. these signs. that's where it comes in. didn't work in this case, but the undercover technique did. >> i will also say that it does show a very, very clear and compelling use case for crypto currency. which is, you know, untraceable. your foreign spy masters. frank, thank you so much for your time. >> sure. first it was hydroxychloroquine then ivermectin and now, anti-vaxxers have latched on to the antibody treatment. but it isn't quite the miracle treatment they think it is. i'll explain why, next. treatment they think it is i'll explain why, next ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ with relapsing forms of ms... there's a lot to deal with. not just unpredictable relapses. all these other things too. it can all add up. kesimpta is a once-monthly at-home injection... that may help you put these rms challenges in their place. kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses, active lesions, and slowing disability progression vs aubagio. don't take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b, and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including infections. while no cases of pml were reported in rms clinical trials, it could happen. tell your doctor if you had or plan to have vaccines, or if you are or plan to become pregnant. kesimpta may cause a decrease in some types of antibodies. the most common side effects are upper respiratory tract infection, headache, and injection reactions. ready for an at-home treatment with dramatic results? it's time to ask your doctor about kesimpta. over the weekend, republican texas gubernatorial candidate announced he had a serious case of covid. he and his wife both contracted it although only she had been vaccinated and he announced he was going to be admitted to the hospital because his blood oxygen was low. he retired from the army after he was fined for using improper interrogation methods on an iraqi policeman. he was briefly a florida congressman then got turfed out. he then moved to texas where he was elected chair of the statewide texas republican party before resigning that position so he could challenge greg abbott. and his approach to covid has been what you would expect from a far right figure. railing against the vaccine while promotingal tern thif treatments. when he tested positive, he tweeted he was already taking hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin protocols, two things that have not been established to help covid. then he said he underwent monoclonal infusion therapy. we want people to get better. one of the aspects of the right's thoughts of covid are they're searching for a way for it to be not a big deal. that led them to strange obsessions with treatments like the a fore mentioned over the more effective vaccines. now, just to be very clear here, unlike hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, the antibodies seem to work. they are authorized i think under emergency use, the fda, which explains they're laboratory made proteins that mimic the immune system's ability to fight off harmful antigens. so they're manufacturing proteins to fight the virus in your blood and it seems to work. it's how donald trump was treated for covid before we had vaccines, but there are also some real downsides to antibodies as a kind of scaleable solution for this once in a century pandemic. while treatment is free for patients, it costs the government, which has agreed to purchase these in bulk, more than $2,000 a dose. that's compared to around $20 for one pfizer vaccine dose or a hundred times what a vaccine dose could cost the government. and they have to be administered intravenously. it's good people can get this treatment and it does seem effective. i am happy that west was able to get it and it seemed to help him out. having gotten this treatment, said quote, after this experience, i'm more dedicated to fighting against vaccine mandates instead of enriching the pockets of big pharma, we should be advocating the infusion therapy. wait a second. just to reiterate, big pharma makes the vaccine. also the monoclonal antibodies and charges 100 times the vaccine cost to the federal government. that tweet from west is the logical end point of this destructive nonsense the right has pursued. there has to be some secret cure they're not telling you about and all this to prove donald trump was right, i guess. good luck with that? i genuinely hope allen west along with everyone suffering from covid gets the treatment they need and together, we fight this virus. ent they need and together, we fight this virus mom: ahem ahem ahem we're out. ♪♪ your new pharmacy is here. to make sure you don't run out of meds here. and with amazon prime, get refills and free two-day shipping. who knew it could be this easy? your new pharmacy is amazon pharmacy. ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like $0 copays on preventive dental care. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ take advantage now. i earn 3% cash back at drugstores with chase freedom unlimited. so i got cards for birthdays, holidays, graduations, i'm covered for everything. which reminds me, thank you for driving me to the drugstore. earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. nearly three weeks the fda approved covid booster shots for seniors and high risk individuals in an effort to provide more protection to the people who need it the most. even though only pfizer booster shots has been approved, the number of people getting them has surpassed the number of people getting official vaccination doses. today doctors without borders called only the u.s. to stop hoarding excess doses and share the vaccines with the rest of the world. they need to keep americans as safe as possible, vaccinate the world. dr. collins the direct of the national institutes of health joins me now. doctor, there is been an interesting debate about the booster. it named the subtext of that debate. the data shows there is some effect for folks particularly those at high risk of a booster, not enormous, but a real effect. the argument against it seems to be entirely about this sort of equity question. how do you think about this? >> well, i'm glad we are talking about it, chris. i'm somebody who has dedicated a lot of my efforts and medical research to the global problems, not just the domestic ones. i care a lot about this, too. this is turning out to be a false dichotomy where we don't have to say one or the other. we can do both. we at the united states level have already donated 1 billion doses of vaccines to the rest of the world. more than the rest of the world combined. we are the largest donor by far. the boosters we are talking about might be 10% of that. so it's not as if this is like doing a terrible number on the global supply. and let's keep in mind we, the united states, also, sadly, have the highest death rate of any country in the world from covid-19 and we have people who are over 65 who are in high-risk situations where the vaccine effectiveness is waning a bit and they are at risk could we turn our back on them? we have to push the manufacturing. we are doing that both in the u.s. and in europe and with our partners in asia, india, australia, japan, the quad, as well as, on a somewhat longer term, boosting vaccine manufacturing in africa. we need more of that capability. but we are on top of all that. i wish people, including doctors without borders, would put this forward as an either/or. it ought to be a both/and. >> is the billion doses what we committed to or shipped? >> we have shipped, i believe, about 115 million doses. we have committed another billion. 500 million of those supposed to be sent out by about the end of this year and another 500 million in 2022. >> yeah. no. i just want to make that distinct. as i learned the hard way from, say, following particularly climate, commitment and shipped or commitments and meaning commitments is sometimes a little space between the two. the issue right now is are we at a pace fast enough, particularly the global poorer countries to get people vaccinated as sort of suppressed community transmission and another phenomenon like delta? >> well, you're exactly right about that. we have to have some self-interest here, enlightened, i hope, to not see this virus continue to spread in other parts of the world where variants like delta can arise again. so swe want to be sure for benevolent reasons and for also trying to end the arrival of new variants that this happens. but i think the other thing we have to think about is the challenge of actually getting the vaccines distributed in low and middle income countries is not trivial. we are doing everything we can to help with that. right now if there were 9 billion doses, it would be difficult to get them all into arms. we need to push that part really hard, too. >> so, on the question of -- the data about people coming for booster shots exceeding those getting initial doses is so striking to me because i think it's an example of the kind of -- the challenge we face, right? which is that the further we go, the more people that get their first shot every day, the more the people not getting the shot shrinks and shrinks into a group that really doesn't want it, right? we are getting closer to that group and questions about how to reach that group and whether we can get enough of them to get something that looks like herd immunity is the open question that i wonder how -- if you think we have an answer to. >> well, it is ironic, indeed, isn't it, chris, that we have a vaccine that are safe and effective and there are almost 70 million people who have not decided to get that first dose. even when they see the data that more than 1,000 people are dying every day in the u.s. and virtually all of those are unvaccinated. it just boggles my mind. i am a scientist. i'm a d zr. i'm not a politician. this has gotten tangled up and people have lost their grip on evidence and what ought to be used to make a decision like this. i am glad we have mandates. i wish they weren't necessary, but it does look as if they are working, chris. i mean, look, united airlines 99% of the staff are vaccinated. rutgers university close to that. people don't like it. people object to it. people say you are treading to on my freedom. freedom has responsibilities, not just rights. if this is what we have to do to get to the point where the virus is sent packing, it's up to all of us. it's all of our problem and maybe the mandates are a way to solve it. >> you announced you are stepping down the end of this year, is that right? >> that is correct. after more than 12 years and working for three presidents, i think it's time for new leadership with new vision. so i let the president know by the end of the year he will have a chance to find somebody else to come and lead this amazing organization, which has been a great privilege for me to lead, and i am one of those who will tell you public service is the most wonderful kind of experience you can have and i hope a lot of people listening will hear that and maybe look for that opportunity for themselves. >> all right. thank you both for what you have done, doctor, and joining us tonight. dr. frances collins. be well. >> glad to be with you, chris. be well yourself. that is "all in" on this monday night. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thank you. and thanks for joining us. happy to have you here this fine monday evening. i have a little allergy, so my voice is weak tonight. don't worry. everything is fine. the surest way to make people worry about you. it's allergies, don't worry. all right. espionage. espionage is spying, right? i send my spies into your country to go steal your secrets or you are spend your spies into my country to steal my secrets. every country in that game knows if they're doing it, somebody else doing it to them, too. and so in the intelligence world, in spying, in espionage, you don't just play offense, you

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