For help as Evacuation Efforts in afghanistan increase and what the american military is now saying about the afghan governments collapse. There was nothing that i or anyone else saw that indicated a collapse of this army and this government in 11 days. All in starts now. Good evening from washington, d. C. Im Medhy Hassan in for chris hayes. We are never going to get through this pandemic if a significant chunk of the population continues to refuse to get vaccinated. This spring the united states was leading the world in vaccinations. No large country was even close. Now theyve all overtaken the u. S. Heres a list of just some of the countries with a higher percent of the population fully vaccinated. Chile, belgium, denmark, spain, portugal, ireland, canada, the united kingdom, france, netherlands, italy, germany, austria, hungry, and china which has A Billion people more than the u. S. You know what category we are back near the top in . Deaths. Were averaging nearly 700 deaths per day over the last two weeks, a 52 increase over that time trailing on the indonesia, brazil and russia. So today as the biden administration is trying to get us out of this pandemic they rolled out a new recommendation saying anyone who got a Pfizer Or Moderna vaccine should get a third shot. The boosters will begin at The End of september and people should get it eight month after their second shot. The goal is to reinforce the vaccines and continue to keep people safe. But there is a big chunk of the population which has no interest in listening to Joe Biden or to the cdc or to Public Health experts like dr. Anthony fauci or dr. Francis collins who will be joining me later on the Show Tonight. They only want to hear from one man, their messiah, their beloved former president , donald j. Trump. And what they are hearing from him is not helping. On the day the biden administration announced a third shot the former president , the guy who put us in this position by downplaying the severity of the virus despite knowing the threat, by treating it as a public Relations Problem instead of a Public Health crisis, that guy went on Fox Business and just undermined the latest attempts to keep people safe. I still come back to the idea of a Booster Shot. I mean, yes, youre right vaccines work. Weve seen that. That sounds you know what . That sounds to me like a money making operation for pfizer, okay . Think of the money involved. Getting a Flu Shot tens of billions, how good a business is that . If youre a businessman and you say you know what, lets give them another shot, thats another 10 Billion of money coming in. The whole thing is just crazy. It doesnt you wouldnt think you would need a booster. You know when these first came out they were good for life, then they were good for a year or two and i could see the writing on the wall, i could see the Dollar Signs in their eyes with that guy that runs pfizer, you know, the guy that announced a day after the election that he had the vaccine, but we knew that and i knew that. Yeah, he announced it november 9th, youre right, a few days after the election. On the day that the biden administration is trying to convince millions of americans to get a third shot to save lives, Donald Trump goes On Fox to talk about ow the booster is a scam. Now, credit where credit is due, just moments earlier in that Interview Trump was saying people who get the vaccine get better much quicker and dont get as sick as those who dont get it. That is true and its great he said it. But we need so much more than that because he then immediately undercuts it with what you just heard. Its the absolute height of irresponsibility. The former president of the united states undermining confidence in the booster. Last week the daily beast reported that trump had repeatedly rejected requests of his own allies that he go out and campaign for his supporters to get vaccinated. Its one thing for him to sulk in his tacky Vacation Home and refuse to help, but its another for him to actively spread lies that will cause people to get sick and die. Remember this is a guy who got vaccinated in private, in secret. Every other Living President did it publicly, and today they publicly campaigned for others to get vaccinated. Meanwhile in July Trump issued one of his bizarre and false twitterless statements saying, quote, people are refusing to get the vaccine because they dont just the biden administration and fake news which is refusing to tell the truth. Hes indulging antivaxers, and his supporters take notice. Donald trump is not just a twice impeached florida retiree, as Speaker Nancy Pelosis office once called him whether we like it or not he still is a De Facto member of the Republican Party. And all the Donald Trumps in office they still take tear cues from him. Theres a reason why republican governors like Ron Desantis and Greg Abbott and Christy Nome do not care about covid in their state. And its not because theyre some ideological antivaxers or antimaskers. Its because they believe taking the Trumpian Road will lead them to the White House in 2024. Trumps Talking Points are what get delivered to his base even if hes not the one saying all the words. Guess what theyre doing in this terribly run city . Theyre deciding you cant go to plays, you cant go to movies go to bars, restaurants or gyms, cant go to anything unless you have your Vaccination Card which takes a dollar to make a knock off card. If you have theablies and what if you cant get the vaccination . You have to shelter in place now like an american in afghanistan . Yes, brian, what an accurate comparison. Look, people who do not get vaccinated are a Public Health risk. And so it is in everyones interest, democrat, republican, independent, whatever to get vaccinated and encourage everyone else to do the same. Donald trump has the ability to save millions of lives, and he will not do it. Millions of americans who follow his lead are not taking the vaccine and risking their own lives and the rest of ours. Its unforgivable and its on trump. Dr. Peter hotez is the codirector for the center of vaccine development, dean of medicine at Baylor College of medicine. Olivia troy is a former advisor to Vice President mike pence, which she worked on the coronavirus task force. Now a director of the republican accountability project. Thank you both for joining me this evening. Dr. Hotez, let me start with you. Tell me about this new Booster Shot that trump thinks is a scam . Why do we need it and why are we finding out about it now . Well, you know, medhi, many of us have thought from Day One this would be a three dose vaccine, and i would imagine if the president were in meetings back in 2020 he might have realized that as well. And the reason is this. Those clinical trials were done with the pfizer and Moderna Vaccine each phase three and four weeks apart respectively. We did that because there was an Urge Ens Ach we had to get Virus Neutralizing Antibodies into people as rapidly as possible. And we did it and it was very successful, and we saved thousands and thousands of lives by doing that. The only problem with it is when you give those first two doses so close together its not the best for inducing long lasting protection. So when we saw that Vaccine Schedule come out, my first thought was okay, were going to need a booster later on. I dont know if its going to be a year after the second dose or eight months or 16 months but we should anticipate a booster. So this was all predicted and predictable. I think sometimes the messaging is not very clear about that, but personally ive always thought this was going to be a Threedose Vaccine from the beginning. Olivia, what is the effect of trump praising the vaccines in one breath and undermining them in the next . What is the effect on the Gop Base . Well, the issue is its constantly undermining the Vaccination Efforts in the pandemic across this country. And hes kind of expressing support because hes trying to cover his own self, right, he sort of supports it with the vaccine but the problem is the base is there. And when you have networks actually pushing the Talking Points thats what he tends to do. And the fact of the matter is this is a man who is revengeful. So im not surprised to see him talking about pfizer in that way. Lets keep in Mind Pfizer was one of the ones who not seek out funding from Operation Warp speed. Even though he fully know its the wrong thing to do. And dr. Hotez is right. We were actually briefed on this from Day One when they did the first actual Vaccine Briefing inside the White House. I remember this vividly, and they said there might be the possibility for boosters needed in the future even when the vaccine was developed because the coronavirus evolves. It is an evolving virus. This is kind of how this virus works. So he was told that, Vice President pence was told this. So this should not be a shock to either of them and especially to Donald Trump, and so he knows better. Olivia, i have to ask the question. I know ive asked you this before and im going to ask again. Dr. Hotez mentioned trump would have been in briefings. You just mentioned there are these meetings where these things were discussed. Did Donald Trump ever pay attention to any of the science or any of the Dill Tas in any meeting you saw him in or heard about him attending . So this is a why this is so frustrating to watch. Donald trump paid attention, he understood the science. At times he mind ask questions about it, he would repeat the questions back and was fully cognizant of the fact he actually was tracking the situation. And at times he understood how dire it was which is why he himself has been vaccinated and which is why you see people like abbott right now taking treatments that have been told theyre helpful when you have covid even though hes been vaccinated. All of these people understand the science which is why its so egregious because theyre putting theyre own supporters at great risk negligently and they know theyre doing it. And it is heart breaking for me to watch whats happening in states like texas and florida that tend to follow in trumps lead, that followed his lead from the very beginning because these leaders know better and trump knows better. And its a shame because you have networks telling these false narratives that are actually hurtful to their supporters and people that follow them. And its shameful and the grift that keeps on grifting but its costing us lives. Yes, certainly. Dr. Hotez, lets broaden out this discussion because one of the reasons people are talking about a Booster Shot is because fully vaccinated people are getting covid. A minority of them, a tiny minority what thats the big question. We dont know how many exactly. We know about hospitalizations and deaths. We dont know about cases as a whole because the cdc publicly stop Tracking Breakthrough cases several months ago. Theyre only counting what comes into hospitals and who dies fully vaccinated. Thats been criticized. Is it time they do a uturn on that frankly . I think its important the cdc modernize a bit in order to track Vaccine Effectiveness. There have been grants put in place for that purpose, but you know most of the preliminary data were getting on Vaccine Effectiveness from at least the Bion Tech Pfizer vaccine coming out of israel and what the israelis have reported after 6 to 8 months the effectiveness of preventing infection has gone down from 90 to 40 to 50 and the Mayor Clinic has put up a study showing something similar. Before you get alarmed by that its important to remember that hospitalizations although they seem to be going up also not nearly at the same rate, so its still really a strong vaccine even after all this time with two doses. The leadership in the White House thought maybe the high number of break through cases might be the tip of the spear or in anticipation were going to see more break through hospitalizations and thats the reason why they pulled the trigger. Wow, were going to talk to dr. Francis collins about pulling that trigger later in the show. Olivia, let me ask you this. Weve been playing clips on this show this week, last week out of tennessee, out of texas, people attending school boards, screaming in parking lots, screaming at Council Members and school superintendents. When you look at the behavior of abbott and desantis, when you look at the behavior of people like that onscreen, what has happened to the Republican Party and the Conservative Movement in this country . Because this is not about small government or low taxes or even, you know, prolife protests outside abortion clinics. This is just people being deranged, people being cruel, people behaving in a completely antisocial way. How do you put that Genie Back in the bottle . Well, you dont. It is shameful, it is disgusting and it is embarrassing and they know that. I think they decided this is where in the space of more extreme views and behavior and its absolutely disgraceful. And theres no other way around it. But i have to say this. I think what theyre doing is theyre driving voters away from the Republican Party. Because a lot of voters out there are not okay with whats happening. Theyre putting children at risk. Theyre creating divisiveness on a virus that really shouldnt be dividing us as a country. We should be united against a virus. The virus is the enemy, not each other. And the sooner they quickly realize this, the better that they wont because this is where they decided this is where the fundraising is and where the support is and thats really unfortunate. The fundraising, astonishing. Appreciate you speaking out. Thank you both for your time tonight. Thank you. Desperation in afghanistan as people try to flee the taliban. Could it all have been prevented . 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No, i dont think it could have been handled in a way that were going to go back in hindsight and look, but the idea somehow theres a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, i dont know how that happens. I dont know how that happens. So for you that was always priced into the decision . Yes. That was president Joe Biden in his first Tv Interview since he withdrew u. S. Troop from afghanistan making the case that there was no way to avoid the chaos. You would not know it from the last few days of chaos in afghanistan as the country swiftly fell to the taliban and thousands of people are trying to get out, but we have not actually reached the deadline for u. S. Militarys withdrawal yet. That officially comes on August 31st just under 2 weeks from today. And in those two weeks theres a lot we can still do to get americans and afghans to safety. The pentagon says its aiming to evacuate 5 to 9,000 people per day. So far the u. S. Has evacuated 5,000 people and brought an additional 2,000 afghans to the united states as special immigrants. But some people are having trouble just getting to the airport in kabul. The u. S. State darm has received reports of the taliban blocking access, setting up checkpoints, turning people away and even beating some afghans who are trying to evacuate. Sarah is a former Npr Reporter who covered the War In Afghanistan and the fall of the taliban in the early 2000s. She wrote about her experience in her book. And Tommy Streeter the former spokesperson for the national Security Council under president Barack Obama. Hes now cohost of the podcast tom, let me start with you. This is a huge screw up, is it not . You and i may agree with Joe Biden this was the right thing to do, but this was a failure in the way it was handled and not seen coming. The cia warned of a rapid collapse and now theyre playing a blame game. This is bad, is it not . They need to recttify that immediately, and obviously that part of this process getting these special immigrant visas out, getting the p1, p2 visas out, all these people who helped the united states, helped the news media, we need to get those people out. So this Mission Isnt over. Joe biden needs to figure out how to get them out. I do agree with president Bidens Assessment after 20 years it was time to end the war with afghanistan. The mission had gone well. The Nation Building Exercise was doomed to fail from the beginning and it was a mistake to continue this long. You lived in afghanistan, you also later advised the joint chiefs of staff. What did we all get wrong about the durability even dare i say the popularity of the taliban in parts of afghanistan . What did we miss . What did u. S. Generals miss . So i actually disagree with tommy on that. And i would say i dont think the taliban are particularly popular. I dont think thats quite an accurate way of putting it either. There were two decisive variables in this whole situation from the beginning. And they were afghan government corruption, aided and abetted and if every afghan leader that we supported. And the second decisive variable was the role of pakistan. Its not as though the taliban are some, you know, grass Roots Movement that sprang up inside afghanistan as we often hear. I spent months interviewing people both ordinary afghans who had been living in kandahar and qatar, across the border in pakistan and also key actors in this drama back in 1994, everyone agreed that it was the pakistani military Intelligence Agency that basically concocted the taliban back in about 1993 and then reconstitute them starting approximately 2003. And so i actually think theres a lot we could have done differently. And having been also in Interagency Policy Development in 2010, 2011, i can tell you there were some of us who were arguing very forcefully for a stronger u. S. Stance in holding the afghan government to basic standards of integrity. And it was explicitly rejected by the u. S. Cabinet and president obama. And the same thing is true of pakistan. Many people were pointing out the active Role Pakistan had played not to mention that they also provided nuclear technology to North Korea and iran. So i dont understand a lot of the decisions that were made in that period. You mentioned obama, so let me bring tommy back in. You worked for Barack Obama. You and i talked about aspects of Varias Policy he got wrong, he could have done better on. Where does afghanistan fit into your scheme when you look at syria, yemen. Joe biden is successfully pulling troop out of afghanistan. He may be doing it in a bad way but he managed to do it. We know Barack Obama had a similar instinct but he never did this. During the obama years especially early on the threat from Alqaeda And Afghanistan and pakistan was growing and significant. And that was largely because george w. Bush started the war there. So what obama decided to do was surge a bunch of additional troops in 2009 and 2010 and push back the taliban and try to buy some time and space to go after alqaeda and essentially prevent top population centers from being overrun. And in hindsight i think that major surge was probably a mistake and that the u. S. Should have Shift Today a Counter Terrorism Mission sooner and drawn down troops sooner. And i agree in hindsight its very easy to say the Safe Haven in pakistan was a problem, corruption may have been a problem. Its very easy to identify those problems. Solving them is much harder especially when you have a bunch of competing priorities like the need to undertake Terrorism Missions in pakistan, the need to take pakistans and a need to do a Mill Yr other things it becomes complicate. I think the surge was a mistake in hindsight. I think its time to end this war and frankly it was doomed for a long time. Yes. And Joe Biden of course was one of those people who at least at the time said he was against that surge. President Ashraf Ghani turned up today in the unied Arab Emirates reportedly taking 600 Million of cash with him. This was the guy supposed to be clean, the guy supposed to fix afghanistan, the technocrat, economist and looks like he may have been just as corrupt as everyone before him. How much is afghan leadership over 20 years to blame for this debacle now sph. Afghan political leadership and the Incentive Structure the united states and many of its international allies put in place, we setup an Incentive Structure that rewarded the most corrupt. And again, i beg to differ with you, tommy. A lot of us its not in hindsight. A lot of us had been talking about Pakistan And Corruption for years. That Interagency Process sorry . I think what was lacking were the solutions. You know, its not like they werent im sorry, tommy. The number of plans, the number of extremely explicit Governance Campaign plans that were put forward i mean with most likely most dangerous mitigation strategies for what might go wrong i can think of three or four that were submitted and frankly died in the national security staff. So i think theres a bit of disingenuousness here. And again, i have had no i want to say sympathy for corrupt afghan officials. But on the other hand lets just take a look i feel like were in a Hall Of Mirrors today. Look at the mcmansions in the massive neighborhoods around washington where contractors and government officials live after having promulgated failed policies. It is truly horrific to see. Sarah, were out of time. I do want to give tommy 20 seconds since you made a couple of jabs. Were out of time. Tommy, 20 seconds. Listen, i would adjust say white papers and plans in washington in the Situation Room have bump up against the reality in Afghanistan And Pakistan for 20 years. And the smartest people writing the smartest white papers have not managed to fix the problems. I dont think it was a lack of trying. Tommy, im sorry dont you tell me as a speechwriter what the realities are on the ground i wish we had more time. Give me a break. I mean seriously. I wish we had more time for this discussion but we dont. I appreciate you both coming on this show and making your views very forcefully. Thank you both for your insights tonight. Appreciate it. Next, the ongoing Human Tragedy in afghanistan. Ill talk to a woman who just arrived to america a few days ago but whose family back home in afghanistan still trapped in a living nightmare. Afghanistan a living Nightmare Look at you getting back to normal. Or at least your 2021 version of what normal should be. And no matter what that is, walgreens is here to help you do it your way. With delivery in as little as one hour. Because now. Things come to you. Same Day Vaccination appointments. Because youre ready. 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In a the Washington Post Oped titled my taliban nightmare came true, i left but my sister couldnt, she writes, quote, a report circulating about taliban militants raiding the houses of activists, journalists and others i called my sister and told her to go home and hide all my Identity Cards and i told her she needed to destroy my guitar. She said her hands were unable to do that, but i pleaded with her. I told her the talibans hands are capable of killing you for your art. Thank you so much for coming on the Show Tonight. What was it like leaving your own country in that way, and did you have any sense before you left how quickly kabul would fall to the taliban . Did anyone expect things would escalate that quickly . Actually we were expecting so many bad things like coming To Kabul since taliban violence were increased and they could capture most of the provinces seriously, honestly we were not predicting that taliban can take the whole power in the country. So we were trying to get ready for something bad but not this. Are you still in contact with your family in kabul . When was the last time you spoke to your sister . Hopefully im still in contact with them and we wish the taliban dont deprive us of having this we talked about five hours ago. She was not able to sleep, and she sent me a video of the neighbor who taliban raided our neighbors home. They hit them they hit the man with their guns and pushed him into the house, locked the door. So she was so scared tonight. And she was telling what if im the next. She is mentally devastated but shes physically right now fine and safe in her home. Your family left afghanistan when it taliban took control in 1996 and i believed you were raised in iran, for your own protection you returned to afghanistan later in life. Did you think afghanistan was on a positive road, was on the right track . How much of the prime uvments did you believe were durable . I believe we had improvements, we had the allotments. We tried our best to make the country a better place for living the new generation and we got new perspectives so i believe we were just going forward if we see from that point. But at the same time we somehow involved some area, some provinces in afghanistan were experiencing clashes and fights among the Security Forces and taliban. But we were never thinking that this after sacrificing for two decades would end up at the same. 20 years ago. And again were at the same point. And thats how high parents worried about me and they took me to iran to be safe. And now after a generation raised, after so many sacrificing again were at the same point. And now i am taking care of my family, my parents and thinking to take them in a safe place. Well have to leave it there. Thank you so much for coming on the Show Tonight to talk to us and i do hope your family and in particular your sister are safe and well. Appreciate it. Thank you. Stay with us. There are so many huge questions about the biden administrations big announcement about Vaccine Boosters and the director of the national institutes of health, dr. Francis collins, is here to answer them. Thats ahead. Collins, is here t answer them. Thats ahead vehicle, how do you know which brand you can trust . With subaru, you get kelley blue books most trusted brand winner, seven years in a row. In fact, subaru has won most trusted brand for more consecutive years than any other brand. No Wonder Kelley blue book also picked subaru as their best overall brand. Once again. Its easy to love a brand you can trust. Its easy to love a subaru. Liberty mutual Customizes Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. How much money can liberty mutual save you . One two three four five 72,807 72,808. Dollars. Yep. Everything hurts. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. When you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff. 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That order was put on hold just days later by the texas supreme court. A panel of all republicans. In response Dallas Superintendent Michael announced his School District would enforce a mask mandate. He said he would enforce masking unless specifically ordered by a court to stop. Now a School District is finding its own way to protect students by using the schools Dress Code. Its a Dress Code that already includes no hats or sunglasses, no House Slippers or noisy footwear. It mandates girls tops must fall at least one inch below the waist while stand or sitting. Boys shirts must be tucked in. This district like a lot of others i would imagine is very explicit on what you can put on your body in terms of decorum or hygiene. For Health Reasons are currently required for all employees and students to mitigate Flu Pandemic and other communicable diseases. In announcing the change the district basically told the Guv Foor to back off, writing the Texas Governor does not are the authority to usurp the board of Trustees Duty of power. Nothing in the governors Executive Order states hes suspended chapter 11 of the Texas Education Code and therefore the board has elected to amend its Dress Code consistent with its statutory authority. All this begs the question, though, what have we come to as a country where nearly 630,000 people have died from a disease and the tried and tested method to prevent that disease from spreading is wearing a mask and because the republican governor of a state for some inexflickable reason does not want to quoteunquote force masks, a force covering on your face to save lives. Schools have to come up with these bizarre Outside The Box solutions, the Dress Code. Is there anymore damning indictment how parts of america have lost their collective minds . Now as top Health Officials are recommending a third Booster Shot, one of the top Health Officials in the Country Dr. Francis collins, director of the national institutes of health joins us to discuss next. You do not want to miss it. H joins us to discuss next you do not want to miss it i was diagnosed with parkinsons. I had to retire from law enforcement. It was devastating. One of my medications is Three Thousand Dollars per month. Prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. Aarp is fighting for americans like larry, and we wont stop. Thats why were calling on congress to let medicare negotiate lower Prescription Drug prices. Introducing Aleve X. Its fast, powerful longlasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. Because with the right pain reliever. Life opens up. Aleve it, and see whats possible. Emergency planning for kids. We cant predict when an emergency will happen. So thats why its important to make a plan with your parents. Here are a few tips to stay safe. Know how to get in touch with your family. Write down Phone Numbers for your parents, siblings and neighbors. Pick a place to meet your family if you are not together and cant go home. Remind your parents to pack an emergency supply kit. Making a plan might feel like homework, but it will help you and your family stay safe during an emergency. Less than a week ago on friday, the cdc recommended covid19 Booster Shots for those with compromised immune systems. Now, five days later, Public Health officials are advising all adults get an additional shot starting in a few weeks time. Right now the guidance those who got the Moderna And Pfizer get their booster eight months after their second dose. Federal Health Officials are citing waning protection from the vaccines. Dr. Anthony fauci argued today boosters were a necessary step to get ahead of the pandemic. If you wait for something bad to happen before you respond to it, you find yourselves considerably behind your full capability of response. You dont want to find yourself behind, playing catchup. Better stay ahead of it than chasing after it. But about a third of eligible americans cant even be bothered to get one shot. So how do we convince them to get three . For more on this latest development im joined by one of the nations top Public Health officials, dr. Francis collins, director of the national institutes of health. Dr. Collins, thanks for coming back on this show. To the person at home who is watching right now who might be fully vaccinated, had their Double Shot of Pfizer Or Moderna whos been told day after day the last few months that they were fully protected, 80 , 90 efficacy, why do they need another shot so soon . Explain that to them. Id be glad to try. Yes, they are fully protected against severe Disease Or Hospitalization because the vaccines are working well so far in that situation, even against this really nasty Delta Variant. But if you watch the data very closely, and many of us involved in this have been studying this daily, you can begin to see some waning of that protection. We are seeing now more indications of breakthroughs, people who do get infected even though theyre vaccinated. The vast, vast majority of them do not get very sick, they have some symptoms perhaps but dont ending up in the hospital. When you look at the data over the last three or four weeks and delta has really taken hold and look at other places like israel, you can begin to see that we are on a path where maybe in another month or two well see the potential of people getting more sick than they have been so far. So maybe you can say were a little ahead of the cousin, but maybe if we waited wed be behind the curve. Its a little bit of a goldilocks moment. Where do you want to put down your bets . We think since lives of at stake, id rather be in that space than a little late. By September 20th if Fda And Cdc look at all the data and agree, people who are eight months away from their initial immunization will be eligible for a third shot. Isnt the problem, dr. Collins, you mentioned data. We dont have all the data when it comes to Breakthrough Infections in particular with vaccinated individuals because the cdc for some bizarre reason back in may stopped collecting or stopped publishing, data on the number of Breakthrough Cases which dont result in hospitalization or death. Theyre only Publishing Hospitalizations and deaths among fully vaccinated people. Many scientists, including dr. Peter hotez, say that was a mistake. We need to see the data and understand fully what is going on. Would you urge the Cdc Tonight to really publish a collect Counting Count of all of that data so we know the full picture . Well, i think they have been hearing that. There are three papers published today by the cdc, one from new york state, one from Nursing Homes, one a broader survey and a paper from Mayo Clinic last week that is looking at all the breakthroughs so you can get a pretty good snapshot. What you see is basically the protection against mild illness is starting to go down a bit. That kind of predicts that over time the protection against more severe illness might also start to wane. Thats what were trying to do here is get ahead of that. Think of this as youre running a race. Weve been doing that with this Virus Chasing after us. The vaccines came along, we had a chance to get well ahead. But then the Delta Variant came along and the virus started catching up. Now we need a super charged boost here to get us well ahead of what otherwise might happen. Were always trying to stay a little ahead of this virus so that people dont run into really serious illness. Thats what were trying to do. So, dr. Collins, why eight months . How was that number chosen . And is it a hard and fast rule . I spoke to dr. Celine Gounder Yesterday on the show and she didnt understand what the rationale for the eight months was. She wasnt even convinced boosters was necessary. Shes an expert in infectious diseases. Have a listen to her. There is clear data that people who are highly immunocompromised, people who have had solid organ transplants, people with aids, these are people who may need an additional dose of vaccine. Theres also good data that people who are in Nursing Homes would benefit from extra doses. What i would call the older elderly, people over the age of 80. But theres really not good data to support giving extra doses to the general population at this time. What is your response to dr. Gounder. Well, shes a really smart and well informed infectious disease expert. Actually i would say whats being proposed matches what she says quite well. The idea of this eight months means that starting in september, people who got their first doses back in january would then be qualified to get a third dose. Who are those people . Theyre the people in the Nursing Homes, theyre the elderly, theyre Health Care providers, all the people that we think might be most in need of this. Then well sort of see how it goes. But basically youre starting with the highest risk people where the evidence is becoming more compelling. Theres nothing magical about eight months. We could have said seven, we could have said nine. It is in fact for a practical purpose by the time were ready to start giving boosters, it will be about eight months since the first folks got their doses back in january. So, dr. Collins, what about availability . For those who are eager to get a booster, do you expect a repeat of march and april of people calling pharmacies, looking for an appointment, frantically refreshing websites, looking anywhere for an available shot . No. I think were going to be in a very good position to be able to offer these boosters to people who are interested in getting them. You know, there are 50,000 places around the country now from which you can get a vaccine. Our production of vaccines has gone way up since then. People should not worry. It should be pretty straightforward when youve reached your eightmonth anniversary to go get that shot. Ideally of the same vaccine that you received the first time because thats where we have the best data. But no, we are not going to have that kind of crunch. We have a much better system now for distribution. And when the w. H. O. , the world health organization, says thats exactly part of the problem, that america does have lots of Vaccine Doses but the rest of the world is facing a shortage, now is not the time the w. H. O. Is saying for the american government to be giving a third shot when millions and millions of people around the world have not had a first shot. Well, i sure hear that because im somebody who has been a passionate supporter of global health for my whole career. But you know the u. S. Still does have a disproportionate amount of deaths and infections from this, so we do have to think about our people rather prominently. And we are giving out doses. We will weve committed over 600 Million doses to the rest of the world. 115 Million of those already sent out. We have made 4 Billion contribution to covax. Were in that space. I think its fair to say we can do both of of these things without compromising one versus the other, but i totally hear the concern. We need to watch that and do everything we can to ramp up our contributions to the rest of the world. Theyre depending on us and this is a tradition we want to stick with for all the decades that weve tried to be not just a soldier to the world but the doctor to the world. This is the time to do that. Yes. Well, its still a big challenge. Its still a big crisis. Dr. Francis collins from the nih, we appreciate you taking Time Out tonight to come on and talk to us about boosters. That is All In on this wednesday night. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, thanks, my friend, much appreciate it. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Okay, we are going to start tonight with a story where when i start to tell this story, you are going to think that you know where its going. Youre going to think that you know where this is going to end up. But im telling you, you are wrong about that. This is an amazing story that happened today. It does not end where you think it does. I dont mean like this is a weird Cable News tease thing or anything. I will just say i believe it is my experience of having done this show for 13 plus years and knowing what matters to people when we put it on tv and knowing what News Chances the way you think about the world, this is one of those stories, so just watch this. Stick with me until The End, okay . Here we go. September