The head of the National Institutes Of Health joins me live to talk about the need for Booster Shots, and whats the best way to get people to take the vaccine . The carrot or the stick . Well discuss when All In starts right now. Good evening from washington, d. C. Im Mehdi Hasan in for chris hayes. One of the many enduring haunting images from January 6th is this scene moments before Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed. She and a group of rioters tried to break through this set of doors, leading into the Speakers Lobby just outside the house chamber. Where members of congress were gathered. They demand the officers guarding the doorstep aside, and eventually managed to smash the glass windows. Now, nearly all of the rioters you see here have been charged with crimes. For example, 39yearold Christopher greater pictured here In The Red Hat with the yellow dont tread on my flag tied around his neck allegedly tried to push open and kick the Lobby Doors. He was indicted in january on seven counts including destruction of Government Property and an act of physical violence on the capitol grounds. Chad barrett who used a pole to break the Lobby Doors is in a gray cap and red jacket, Video Footage shows him striking the window ten times. He was charged with destruction of property and other crimes. And Zachary Allen in the Fur Hat also smashed the windows using a helmet. Hes charged with assaulting a federal officer with a dangerous or deadly weapon as well as ten other counts. And as we know, that window that was smashed is the one Ashli Babbitt tried to catapult herself through before she was fatally shot by capitol Police Officer. Babbitt was a January 6th rioter. She was an insurrectionist who stormed the capitol to try to overturn the election. She was part of a violent mob of people that tried to enter the Speakers Lobby. Majority of whom had been charged for their crimes. Babbitt was a Conspiracy Theorist and Devout Believer in Donald Trumps election lies, a Devout Believer in qanon, and it is a tragedy, a tragedy that she lost her life for those beliefs. But in the months since January 6th, the right has been trying to make Ashli Babbitt into a noble martyr for their cause. Paul gosar has taken to wearing a bracelet with for ashli on it in the capitol building, but this is not just the far, far right of the republican party. The former president , the De Facto leader of the whole party, has recently taken to holding her up as a martyr as well. He released this deeply sturbing Statement Yesterday from new jersey. Quote, i spoke to the wonderful mother and devoted husband of Ashli Babbitt who was murdered at the hands of someone who should never have pulled the trigger of his gun. We know who he is. That happened to the other side, there would be riots all over america, yet there are far more people represented by ashli who truly loved america than there are on the other side. The radical left haters cannot be allowed to get away with this. There must be justice. Donald trump was impeached for inciting an insurrection on January 6th. And that statement is yet more incitement to violence, to terror. Both against the officer who killed Ashli Babbitt, we know who he is, and in Holding Up Babbitt as some type of hero. Think about the message. If you die for the cause, am president will promote you as a great patriot. All in the service of Donald Trumps selfcentered Big Lie that he actually won the election. This is the monster that the right has created over many years. Donald trump is in many ways a product of it, of the Anger And Bigotry and conspiracism, and he took it all and he amplified it. He fed the monster with his lies, and it grew. There are almost no Lines Trump was not willing to cross, almost no conspiracies he was not willing to promote. New reporting from politico reveals that during Donald Trumps final weeks in office, top Justice Department officials rangled over how the fbi should handle a particularly wacky voter fraught allegation promoted by the then president and his allies. That wacky allegation was a Video Showing Election Workers counting ballots at State Farm Arena in atlanta. Trumps allies claimed it showed the work of secretly pulling ballots out of suitcases. The Georgia Secretary of state swiftly debunked the claims, but Donald Trumps Attorney General, Bill Barr, directed a top official to investigate it as well. They, of course, came up with nothing. But it was too late. This is the monster that trump propagated, that trump helped build up, and were continuing to see the dangerous realworld consequences of it. Election officials around the country are fearing, fearing for their personal safety because of the spread of these false claims about Election Fraud. A City Clerk in livonia, michigan, told the Washington Post, quote, the complaints, the threats, the abuse, the magnitude of the pressure, its too much. The former Deputy Commissioner of elections in virginia says she knows of officials in multiple states forced to leave their homes because of threats against them and their families. And just last week, the Maricopa Conte Board of supervisors received a Voice Mail in which a caller threatened to kill each member and their families. Come on. This is the kind of thing that happens in authoritarian countries, in failed states. Now its happening in the united states of america in the year 2021. And guess what. Members of the republican party are now having to answer for their lies, and answer to the monster of their own creation. Look at Congressman Dan Crenshaw of texas. Last year, he signed on to a legal brief in support of a Texas Lawsuit that wanted the Supreme Court to overturn the election. But he ended up not voting to overturn the Election Results after the insurrection on January 6th. And now, now hes getting heckled at a Fundraising Event for saying the election was not stolen and hes being heckled by hiown partys supporters. Dont kid yourself into believing thats why we lost. Its not. Its not. Youre wrong. Ill tell you openly. Youre wrong. Im not wrong. Yes, you are. I have plenty of proof. I have proof in arizona, pennsylvania, and georgia. You did the maricopa how did that turn out . Guess what, its going to turn out. Its going to flip. You watch. Were youre going to see it. It wont. You have to flip all five states. You know how theyre stealing the elections . Im not going to do this. Look, im glad Congressman Crenshaw is finally standing up to the monster and telling The Truth. I respect him for doing that. But honestly, its too little too late. Its been seven months since the insurrection. More than seven months, and he made these remarks at a private event. Unless and until every republican member of congress, every member of the senate goes to the nearest microphone and shouts The Truth about the election from the rooftops, we are screwed. And the monster will continue to grow and put our country, our democracy, and many of our lives in danger. Ruth is an expert on authoritarian movements, a professor of history at new York University and the author of strongmen and Rick Wilson is a former republican strategist, cofounder of the lincoln braujict, and author of running against the devil. They both join me now. Rick, you have parts of the right including the former president lionizing Ashli Babbitt as a martyr, as an innocent victim of police violence. Yet as you argued on twitter today, quote, Donald Trump killed Ashli Babbitt. Yes, mehdi, i thank you for having me, first off. But the actions that happened that day were not in a vacuum. They were not out of nowhere. They were motivated, they were directed, they were pushed, they were told where to go and what to do. By Donald Trump. They were allowed to live in this Conspiracy Bubble that Fox News which is their main source of information provided them, which told the Big Lie over and over again. They lived in this Facebook Environment where facebook never moderated the fact they were being told that Lizard Aliens Control America and that if they dont do this, theyre all going to be enslaved and become mark marxists. This was a toxic mix that led her and people like her to the capitol. It is a tragedy she was killed, but lets look at where the responsibility rests. Its with the people that organized that rally like roger stone. Its with Donald Trump. And its with the people that motivated her to do this. This was a person who was not seeing the world clearly. And they exploited that, and she got killed for it. Ruth, when some of us call trump a fascist last year, we were told fascists control mobs and paramilitaries and trump doesnt. I mean, he incited a violent mob on January 6th, and with these latest statements, ruth, praising babbitt, it feels as if he wants to incite another violent mob. He does, because the thing about trump is hes really tenacious and like all strong men, he is desperate to stay in office. I have a whole chapter about the desperate things they do because they need immunity from prosecution, and its quite you know, you can look at all the things he did. He tried a military intervention. He tried the doj to help him. He even at the end, he tried to manipulate election officials. Then he had to get his own ad hoc coup army together, and none of that worked. Now he has to destabilize the system as much as possible. So creating martyrs is part of that, and the key is that he says we have to have justice, and he knows perfectly well this is only going to amplify this climate of threat that he created. This is someone who, you know, before he had the nomination said he could shoot someone, and ill never stop thinking about that because that was the red flag. And it does remind me, reminds me of early fascism. Its like early fascism when they made these expeditions to beat up the opposition, and its really very concerning. Very concerning. But rick, lets be honest here. The gop with fox as you mentioned, created this monster. It goes back way before trump. Republicans were helping their base go crazy during the Tea Party era, during the Sarah Palin era, all the way back to Newt Gingrich in the 1994 republican revolution. And you were part of a lot of that, were you not . You must recognize that. You cant just put this all on trump, right . The republican base have been crazy for long time. I have written Two Books Clocking about the role people like me played in weaponizing the grievances and insecurities and Culture Differences that motivated the republican base and turned them into something that could be pushed out there, based on something that wasnt about the supposed Idealogical Predicates of the gop but about anger. But about rage. And trump took it to a vastly higher level. Trump was more overt about his authoritarian leanings. He was more overt about the drivers that pushed him were not about idealogical choices. He wasnt about small government, Constitutional Fealty or balanced budgets or anything we pretended to be for. He was about personal power and he still is. We learned a painful lessage. Stuart stevens and i have both written books about this. We weaponized a system to motivate voters, and that system was taken over by people who, you know, we learned the painful lesson that not all tools you build are morally agnostic. Its controlled now by people who are overtly evil and will destroy the country if we let them. Im glad you wrote those two books and youre speaking out now. Ruth, Election Workers, brief last quick question. Election workers living in fear of their lives. The party of the police turning on the police. The glorification of terrorism. The obsession with hungry. What kind of america are we living in now . This is the menu of the authoritarian state. This is the authoritarian playbook where you have propaganda, you have excused corruption, you have the Leader Cult because January 6th was a leader operation, and you have a culture of threat and intimidation around elections, around the political opposition. This is where we are now. This is where we are now. Deeply depressing. Ruth and rick, thank you both for joining me tonight. Thanks, mehdi. I want to bring in Congresswoman Sheila Jackson lee, member of the House Judiciary Committee. Thanks for coming on the show this evening. Your leader, Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in a statement, the Donald Trump threat against the officer who shot Ashli Babbitt is only the latest in a long line of vile republican attacks on the officers who defended the capitol. Do you agree . What is your reaction to the Trump Statement . The speaker is right. We had a vile presidency, and so were going to have a vile failed presidency, failed loss of someone who has not been willing to accept the democratic process. You know, mehdi, thank you, first of all, for having me. This requires a strong, determined, and aggressive response on the part of democrats who now remain in most parts except a few republicans, as really the standard bearers for america. We are the standard bearers for the values of the constitution, the declaration of independence, creating All Of Us with certain inalienable rights. The idea of the bill of rights. This is what democrats have been standing on. The process of accepting the democratic transition of government. And we cannot be silent. We cannot be meek and mild, as it relates to stamping out the Big Lie. The more we turn the pages, the more we see horrific actions like Attorney General barr conspicuously trying to investigate this socalled fraud that did not exist, forcing the fbi integrity unit, if you will, to do something that they do not do, which is investigate an investigation until all is over and done with, so they will not interfere with the election, which is what he seemingly wanted to be done. The Attorney General, deputy Attorney General and the Attorney General acting Attorney General rosen and then trying to get clark to do things that were inappropriate. There is a long tale of abuse of Power And Abuse of the democratic process. So what do we need to do . We need to be bold and loud. On our moment in history. Youre right. The previous speakers were right about the tragedy of the loss of ms. Babbitt, a veteran. We all mourn her loss, but at the same time, how dare you, president trump, attack a first responder who did nothing more than to defend the citadel of democracy when he was seeing an attack that would ultimately wind up attacking anyone but members of congress. Congresswoman i think what we should be doing is be bold in our response to all of this. When you say we should be bold, what does that mean in practice . When we read in politico about former a. G. Bill barr directing the doj to investigate a debunked crazy Conspiracy Theory about Election Fraud in georgia, shouldnt there be criminal consequences for that . Shouldnt Bill Barr have to answer for that somewhere . Well, i think the first line of defense, if you will, or offense, is at the House Judiciary Committee. It should be able to investigate all of these allegations. There were some initial hearings in the senate, but obviously, the House Judiciary Committee can now put the final acts to it, if you will. Which is to subpoena persons, to broaden the investigation, to determine why theres fraudulent behavior occurring, and this is singularly the House Judiciary Committees jurisdiction, and it should not be limited. Should not be stopped from doing its job. And there are many committees, we should not stop. We can do two things at once. We can pass the infrastructure bill, we can pass the budget reconciliation bill. We can do all of that, but we need to clean out the cancer that is attacking democracy. And that means we need to be heard. Once we investigate, once the ig investigates, then it will be the appropriate direction of the criminal justice system. But i think the House Of Representatives should be investigating so that america can see what is going on. We have to be at the forefront of stamping out the Big Lie, and let me say this, you know what else the Big Lie is doing . Its killing people. Covid19 and people fighting against vaccinations are now turning into a crisis in two states led by trumpites who dont want to do it. And thats where we are. And i believe we have to stop that right now. Its truly horrific, completely unnecessary deaths that are happening now. Sheila lee, thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. With covid surging across the country, a couple of big questions are popping up. Is it time for a third shot for the vaccinated . And is it time to tax the unvaccinated until they join the fight . Well be covering both of those questions, those debates ahead, and well talk to the director of the national institutes of Health Right after this. pho where weve just lowered our Auto Rates. And savings like that will have you jumping for joy. Now, get new lower Auto Rates with allstate. Because better protection costs a whole lot less. Youre in good hands with allstate. Click or call for a lower Auto Rate today. Cookies and breyers. 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But tens of millions of other americans are starting to wonder, when can we get our third shot . Today, the centers for Disease Control confirmed the Food And Drug administration is working with Pfizer And Moderna on Booster Shots. But only for those with compromised Immune Systems. Which might not have responded as well to the first two doses. Fda is working with Pfizer And Moderna to allow boosters for these vulnerable people. An additional dose could help increase protection for these individuals which is especially important as the Delta Variant spreads. This action is about insuring our most vulnerable who may need an additional dose to enhance their biological responses to the vaccines are better protected against covid19. For Everyone Else, though, the vaccines are continuing to work, were told. But their effectiveness will wane with time. So when will it be the right time for every american to get their covid Vaccine Booster Shot . Who better to ask than one of the countrys top scientists, dr. Francis collins, director of the National Institutes Of Health. The primarily agency responsible for biomedical Health And Research in america. Thanks for joining me this evening. Who exactly are the people eligible now for these third shots . Dr. Walensky mentioned people with organ transplants, cancer patients. How specific, how clearly delineated is this group . Well, there is a Meeting Tomorrow of the Advisory Committee On Immunization Practices that cdc runs. They may get more specific that way, but you named the right group. People with organ transplants, people with cancer who are taking chemotherapy that suppresses their immune response, and some people with autoimmune responses. Basically, people whose Immune System has been so tamped down by their illness or their transplant that the vaccine doesnt generate a very vigorous response. And a third dose, if you have Moderna Or Pfizer and you had the first two, might in maybe as many as half of people push them back up in a protective zone. So everybody agrees its time to make that possible. Thats only about 3 of the population. These are not just everybody. So you have said in the past a Booster Shot for Everyone Else is an evolving question. Dr. Fauci said today that there will be boosters but not right now for everyone. Give us a rough timeline. When are we roughly talking about that the other 97 of americans get their third shot . You know, mehdi, i dont entirely know the answer to that. It depends on watching closely the data in the coming weeks because the big wrinkle in our plans is called delta. You knee that the Vaccine Antibody levels were going to gradually drop over time. They have been doing that, but slowly, and right now, were still fine. If you have full immunization from pfizer, moderna, or j j, youre covered. But delta comes along and its harder to deal with. As we look week after week since delta has taken over the country, well figure out what the timing is. Not yet, but it could well be some time later this fall or early next year. Later this fall or early next year. Many of our viewers are marking their diaries right now. Dr. Collins, Abc News is reporting according to a leaked cdc report, the centers for Dekreez Control and prevention estimates more than 1 Million people who received the Moderna Or Pfizer vaccine have gone back for an unauthorized third Booster Shot. These are people walking into their pharmacies pretending its their first but its really their third. There are any known Safety Concerns with people going out and getting a third shot right now . Well, thats a good question, isnt it . I certainly wouldnt recommend that. In the absence of better data. You know, pfizer has run a trial on a third dose, and they have submitted that data and the fda is looking at it, but we dont know exactly what the safety issues might be. I suspect they wont be serious, but if right now the full immunization is good enough, i would not encourage people to jump the line and try to be out there and be ahead of what the recommendations are, if we dont need it and even if theres a small chance the third dose might make you in some way a little less healthy, why do it now . Wait and lets see what the evidence looks like. Come on, america, were supposed to be people driven by evidence and data. Lets not be making stuff up. So lets talk about evidence, and lets talk about delta, which you mentioned. A lot of kids are getting sick from delta in a way we havent seen before. One week ago, the president of the American Association Of Pediatrics sent a letter to the fda saying, quote, i write to urge fda to continue working aggressively toward its authorizing safe and effective covid19 vaccines for children under age 12 as soon as possible. Obviously, you dont run the fda, but i wonder from your vantage point, do you know of any movement on this. A lot of epidem aulshzs, doctors are saying the fda could move faster. Were ready for under 12s to get the shot. Why arent they moving faster on this, especially with delta cases surging among younger children . Well, mehdi, this is a complicated situation. Again, we dont want to be in a situation of giving children a vaccine without being absolutely sure that we have the Dose Right and we understand if there are side effects. And basically, the companies that have developed the vaccines have been running those trials, but they havent yet submitted their data to the fda on a large enough number of kids for us to be absolutely sure. That data will get submitted next month in september. Im sure fda will work quickly on it at that point, but again, its just benefit risk. Kids are not just downscaled adults. There are things about kids you want to be sure you have really collected the evidence, and thats just going to take a little longer. I know people are frustrated about that, especially with school starting, but its the safest way we can proceed. And by the way, that means wearing those masks in school for kids under 12 is going to be the best way to protect them. I sure hope Thats Something that we can get done. So later on the show tonight, dr. Collins, well be debating whether or not there should be fines or any other kind of financial penalties like higher insurance rates for those who refuse to get vaccinated. More and more people are calling for this, including scientists, economists, and others. Are you opposed to the idea . We have tried carrots. Are you in favor of sticks . Well, i would be in favor of something that might work. You know, this is such a heartbreak. Im not a political person. Im a scientist, im a doctor. I have seen the way in which these vaccines have been proven over and over again to be safe and effective, yet we have 90 Million people who have yet to roll up their sleeves, and theyre putting themselves at risk and others around them. This is a pandemic of unvaccinated people. If theres a way to encourage them by whatever carrots or sticks as long as its fair and just, lets look at that. Dr. Francis collins, well have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time and insights tonight. Appreciate it. Glad to be with you. Glad to come back any time. There are now more than 10,000 people hospitalized with covid in texas, the most in six months. But the governor of texas is still holding out on any Government Attempt to slow the spread. In texas, there will not be any government imposed shutdowns or Mask Mandates. Everyone already knows what to do. Everyone can voluntarily implement the mandates that are safest for them, for their families, and for their businesses. One local official in texas who is defying the governors Mask Mandate ban, he joins me next. Knows everyones unique. Thats why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. [ nautical Horn Blows ] i mean just because you look like someone else doesnt mean you eat off the floor, or yell at the vacuum, or need flea medication. Oh, yeah. Thats the spot. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty [ ] looking to repair dry, damaged hair without weighing it down . 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And issued an Emergency Order for the county requiring all Child Care centers, schools, and commercial entities to require universal indoor masking, and to develop their own Health And Safety policies to combat the spread of covid. The Gop Governor is trying to stop that Emergency Order, as of right now, it still remains in effect. But for how much longer . Dallas county Judge Clay jenkins joins me now. Welcome to the show tonight. Thanks so much for taking time out. I understand there are 200 people protesting outside your house right now. Number one, do you feel safe . Number two, how does that affect your ability to enforce the Mask Mandate . It doesnt affect my ability to enforce the Mask Mandate. I do feel safe. My daughter has been upset because adults are standing in her swing in her tree in my front yard, but the police are doing what they can to push people off the property. And i just got a call from the chief here that says that the crowd is dwindling. So thats, you know, good. Its just one of those things that you have to put up with in an emergency. There are going to be people who are afraid, that are defiant, that dont listen to science. Well, sadly, you shouldnt have to put up with it. Its a public Health Emergency and you shouldnt have people protesting against attempts to try to protect their health. There is a Charge Nurse in Dallas Hospital who told the dallas morning news, quote, its hard to look at a patient gasping for air and say no, we wasnt give you the vaccine right now. Its too late. People are dying right now in your state whose deaths were almost all preventable with the use of masks and vaccines. So i have to ask you straight up, does Governor Abbott, who is resisting all these mandates, does he have blood on his hands . Well, if he does not immediately listen to the doctors, he will, because right now, we have zero icu beds for children in the 19 county area. Not just dallas, but in counties as far away as 70 miles from here, we have no beds for anyone. This is a combined Metro Area. No icu beds for any child. A combined Metro Area of 7. 8 million people. Its not much better for adults. The situation where were in right now with hospitals because Governor Abbott overcontracts for temporary staffing that supplemented our hospitals, and then head hunters pull some of our people out of our hospitals to work in other states and still have that program, and others retired. Our numbers now patient to Doctor And Nurse are worse than they have ever been. So we all should be on Team Public Health. You, me, your viewers, Governor Abbott. They all need to be on Team Public Health, and the captains of Team Public Health are the scientists who trained their entire adult lives to advise us in this moment. Unfortunate ly unfortunately, thats not happening here in texas but were going to do what we can. You have said this isnt about, quote, parents versus Governor Abbott or Clay Jenkins versus Governor Abbott or the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated. Were all Team Public Health, and the enemy is the virus. I wonder, do you really think that message is getting through in this polarized political climate where masks have been turned into a culture wars issue, not a public Health Measure by the republican party, by Fox News . You know, i think it gets through to some people. Its very unfortunate and harmful that we cannot focus on the science. This is a battle that we are now losing. And the two tools we have to turn the tide and win the battle are vaccinations and masks. And yet we have got a group of people out there in elected office looking at polls and saying what the people in their polls want them to say, which is the opposite of what the doctors tell us will help us to win this war. We mentioned the people outside your house. One last question. In tennessee, after a School Board voted in favor of a Mask Mandate for elementary schools, angry parents gathered outside the building and shouted threats at public health officials. I wonder, what steps are you taking in Dallas County to protect your local officials from these increasingly deranged crowds of people . So we do have protection, you know, for our people. We take the safety of our employees very seriously. And they will be safe. And you know, the majority of the people in North Texas are courageous people. Theyre wearing their masks. Theyre doing what they can. But you know, its hard to get the message through all this clutter thats happening, but were going to do what we can to follow the science and save lives. Dallas county Judge Clay jenkins, thank you so much for your time. Please do stay safe. Thank you. Coming up, what is the best way to persuade people to get the vaccine . Do rewards work better than penalties . Well debate that ahead. 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A criminal complaint alleges he told the fbi he killed his children because he believed they were going to grow into monsters and Conspiracy Theories led thime believe his wife had passed down her Serpent Dna to the children. Horrific. As a qanon follower, that man charged withmeredering his two young children believed the conspiracy that former president Donald Trump would bring this liberal satan worshiping Child Sex Trafficking ring to justice. So if theres one person who could probably persuade these people that their beliefs are wild, irrational, and the furthest thing from reality, its former president trump. Instead, he always plays coy. During the pandemic, the Qanon Movement has been appears to be gaining a lot of followers. Can you tong about what you think about that and what you have to say to people who are following this movement right now. I dont know much about the movement other than i understand they like me very much. Which i appreciate. But i dont know much about the movement. I have heard that it is gaining in popularity. So i dont know really anything about it other than they do supposedly like me. Even without the president ial bully pulpit, Donald Trump with the snap of his fingers could say or do the right thing to keep people out of harms way. His people. He could have done that with qanon. But of course, he didnt. Just today, he is sending out threats against a Police Officer who protected the capitol from Ashli Babbitt, as we talked about earlier. And so now, with the Delta Variant ravaging states where people overwhelmingly voted for him, trump could yell from every rightwing Tv Outlet in america about the importance of getting vaccinated. He could hold vaccination drives in those hardest hit states. In fact, the Daily Beast is reporting that some of his closest allies are begging him to mount some sort of provaccine campaign. But the former president has shown little interest in tying his name to broader efforts to get people inoculated. Which really should not be surprising. Trumps Callous Inaction as president at the beginning of the pandemic led to hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths. The Washington Post writes that had the Trump Administration simply implemented mitigation guidelines by march 9th, approximately 60 of american covid deaths could have been avoided. During the pandemic, he held a number of superspreader events. He contracted covid himself but decided he wanted to take a Joy Ride in the president ial Vehicle And Wave at his adoring fans. Turns out during his presidency, nearly 900 of his Secret Service agents got infected with covid. So why then, after some 17 months, should we expect him to all of a sudden care about the wellbeing of others, even his own base . Trump has always been guided less by ideology and more by sociopathy. Hes never given a damn. So lets stop asking him to do the right thing. He never will. The rest of us, however, must. And we need to figure out ways to get as many people vaccinated as possible. One provocative suggestion is to tax the unvaccinated, to make them pay in some way or another. Well have a debate on the Pros And Cons of that idea next. Do not go away. [band plays] a place where everyone lives life wellprotected. And even when things go a bit wrong, weve got your back. Here, things work the way you wish they would. And better protection costs a whole lot less. Youre in good hands with allstate. Click or call for a lower Auto Rate today. [sfx psst psst] youre in good hands with allstate. Allergies dont have to be scary. Spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. Psst psst all good introducing Aleve X. Its fast, powerful longlasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. Because with the right pain reliever. Life opens up. Aleve it, and see whats possible. Look at you getting back to normal. Or at least your 2021 version of what normal should be. And no matter what that is, walgreens is here to help you do it your way. With delivery in as little as one hour. Because now. Things come to you. Same Day Vaccination appointments. Because youre ready. And Walgreens Cash rewards you can donate back to your community. The new normal . Have to admit, it does have its upside. Walgreens. Have to admit, it does have its upside. Hey google, turn up the heat. Americas Vaccination Rate needs to get much better and fast. Right now nearly 70 of the eligible population has at least one dose while nearly 60 are fully vaccinated. The hospitals overwhelmed by mostly people who are unvaccinated. And while weve Seam It Increase in the hardest hit areas, there are people for whatever reason remain unvaccinated. What do we do . A recent Op Ed suggested higher insurance preems in the same way that smokers pay higher rates. Because the logic behind the policies is that the Offenders Behavior can hurt others and Cost Society a lot of money. Will that work . Is it fair . Elizabeth is the coauthor of that provocative Op Ed. The editorinchief. They both join me now. Elizabeth, let me start with you. Briefly make the case for why the vaccine hesitant should be forced to pay in higher insurance costs for not getting vaccinated. Why is that not draconian . I think weve tried all the carrots we can. The milliondollar lotteries, the free beers. And you know, do it for your grandmother, for your friends, and it hasnt worked. Were stuck at this 60 level. Just yesterday we had more than 500 people die from a vaccine preventible illness. 70,000 hospitalizations. We have to move this needle. So i think at this point, we have to say, Okay, you are putting others in harms way. You are putting my kids in harms way. If theyre at their school, there is not a Mask Mandate. And it costs a lot. It costs society a lot. Yes. So time to do it. So adam, we already have an affordable Care Act which allows insurers to charge smokers a higher rate, higher premiums. People who are not vaccinated are causing similar harm to others the same way that smokers with secondhand Smoke Cost others. Why not do the same with the unvaccinated . Obviously, i share the goal of vaccines to everyone. Several things wrong with that argument. First of all, that being vaccinated already carries the risk of death. Do we really think that adding a Parking Ticket will make the big difference . You mentioned the Smoking Penalty. That has been studied. Do you know what they found . They found that all the Smoking Penalty did was actually push some people out of getting Health Coverage and it didnt improve Smoking Cessation rates. The reality is we want smokers and we want the unvaccinated to go to their doctors. We want them to hear about the dangers of smoking and the dangers of not smoking and the dangers of being vaccinated. So those are two very good reasons. And we havent maximized all the other things you can do. You should have more creative approaches including teams going home to home. Vaccination clinics at camps, at parks, at schools, at churches, at barbecues, and at museums and we can do a lot more. So i think there are better ways to approach this issue. Some Vaccine Resistors like the cast this as personal choice. Theyre very ideological. Others just have a hard time getting the vaccine. Especially people of color. Recent data from the Kaiser Foundation found that in california, 30 of vaccinations have gone to hispanic people while they account for 63 of cases and 48 of death. People of lower incomes make up a larger share of the unvaccinated. If you go down the road, are you suggesting, are not you going to hit lower income people of color . Well, i think there has been incredible outreach around this vaccine. And you know, doctors have spoken endlessly about it. And the people who are not afraid of covid, who dont believe in covid, i dont know that theyre convertible by the health message. They may be convertible by saying, youre going to pay a whole lot more. And they should be remembering right now, during the height of the pandemic, before there was a vaccine, insurers waived copays and deductibles. Once there was a vaccine, they somewhat reasonably said youre going to pay these things and that can be thousands of dollars. Even for a visit to the Emergency Room for covid. Let alone a half million dollar hospital stay. If youre not worried about your health, worried about your wallet. And i think we have to go that route. I dont love it in principle. But what is our choice right now . I understand the argument. Youre making it well. Im saying, are you work the consequences of that if the people who end one the higher insurance costs are people of color and lower income americans . Youre Okay with that . Well, of course not. Im not Okay with that. But i dont think thats the inevitable outcome. Weve seen Vaccine Resistors of all stripes. For some people, it may be about convenience. But we have seen Vaccine Clinics set up in low income neighborhoods and in a whole day, ten people come. Ten. So i think we have to use different kinds of arguments. Im at wits end. Im willing to try anything at this point. Were in a desperate place. Elizabeth wants to try anything. She says not inevitable that people low income and people of color get hit hardest. Why not try this . Because of why up. It is inequitable, it hits lower income people hardest. 25 of people in america dont even have a primary care doctor. This is not the right way to do it. If anything we should be moving toward a better Health Care System. Give those 25 Health Care doctors so they can talk about the benefits of vaccination. Lets move on to a Health Care System that covers everyone and lets think of more creative ways to get the message throughout without sticking a Tax Or Premium surcharge on very disadvantaged people. I have to ask this question. I get what youre saying. I want to do a quick followup before we run out of time. I get what youre saying. A lot of people will say, we are fed up with these people who have a Miracle Cure that can save everyone. There has to be some stick. Not just carrot. You dont think there should be any stick at all . There are other good policies. Im in favor of mandates at occupation at settings. I think everyone should be vaccinated. I think schools, Police Officers, many occupational mandates that would be totally reasonable. And we can talk about other approaches. I just think that slapping a Parking Ticket on people who are not getting vaccinated, similar to the Smoking Surcharge in the affordable Care Act is the wrong way to go. I dont think we should charge people more for Health Care because they have higher Health Care needs. I dont agree with that. Whether it is cancer or vaccines. We are running out of time of the i want to bring elizabeth back in. If we had universal herring like canada, like the u. K. , would we have higher Vaccination Rates like canada and the u. K. Have . I dont know. Because many of the objectors have doctors. They just dont listen to them. I dont think it will solve the problem of disinformation and thats what were facing here. So i think we cannot let this pandemic get out of hand. We just cant. Well have to leave it there. A fascinating debate. Thank you both for making the time tonight. Thatsin All In. Thank you at home for joining us. I cannot sing at all. You know how some people can sort of sing like match a note . I cant sing at all. People try when i try happy birthday. When i sing the national anthem it sounds like a crime. Im absolutely terrible. The only Saving Grace in my relationship is that susan is equally terrible so we can sing together but nobody else can hear either of us sing. Be