Congressman Eric Swalwell confirmed that the records were seized. Heres where the reporting is more disturbing. Prosecutors were hunting for the sources of Media News reports of contacts with russia. The Da The and other evidence did not tie the committee to the leaks. Investigators debated whether they had hit a Dead End. Some discussed closing the inquiry. They took this unprecedented investigative the ep when Donald Trump took the unprecedented step of asking the Fbi Director James Comey to let Mike Flynn go. Mike flynn took the unprecedented step as the sitting national Security Adviser to lie to the fbi about the conversations with russian ambassador kissly yak. Trump lying about conversations with Vladimir Putin. The sidelines of a global summit. Unprecedented conduct all around contacts between trump figures and russia. All of it as Robert Mueller investigating the ties to russia. So doj at this time crosses this red line. They subpoena apple for the Phone Records and they find nothing. They debate amongst themselves shutting it down. What do you think happens next . Enter Bill Barr. Bill barr gets there and revives the dead End Probe into schiff. He revives a Dead End and extremely aggressive investigation into someone who has replaced James Comey as the twitter obsession. Trump tweeted about Adam Schiff more than 300 times as president. Barr revooifred Leak Investigations after he became Attorney General. A year later. He moved a prusted prosecutor from New Jersey with little experience to the main Justice Department to work on the schiff related case and about half a dozen others. The zeal in the Trump Administrations efforts to hunt leakers led to the extraordinary step of subpoenaing Communications Meta data from members of congress. In a Phone Interview Barr say he doesnt recall getting briefed on the congressmans records sought in a leak case. In the wake of calls for an investigation, there will be an inquiry into the probe and secret subpoenas. Top democrats in the senate are calling for barr and sessions to testify before them. Heres the kicker. Theres more. This unprecedented probe was carried by a cadre of doj officials. Heres the true scandal. They still work there. For Attorney General Merrick Garland. Today. Right now. This is where we start today. Former acting u. S. Solicitor and Professor Neil Katatel is here. And Mike Schmidt is here. A reporter that broke this Big Story Last Night for The New York Times. All three msnbc contributors. Mike schmidt, take us through what you describe as a sense that the Justice Department that might have been at least partially politically motivated on barrs part. Whatever the underlying evidence was in this investigation back in 2017, 2018, that got the Justice Department to this point, whatever it was, we dont have full visibility into the investigation, what the Justice Department did was exactly what Donald Trump wanted. And thats the problem that you have when a president takes a norm of wading into criminal investigations and using the Bully Pulpit against the rivals. The president spoke publicly and privately about how he wanted the Justice Department to work. And to function. It is around that time that that is exactly what the Justice Department did. So no matter what it was that led to Justice Department to get there, whatever evidence when this Inspector General investigation im sure that senior officials will say we knew this and that or whatever, whatever it is, it was just what the president had asked for. That is why and that was always the criticism or more than krit simple, that was the cautionary tales from the president s aides and lawyers and from earn to stop talking about criminal investigations because if this came out automatically we say, well, Donald Trump was in charge and picked who ran the Justice Department. He had at the time pressuring those folks on a range of issues. Wanted mueller fired. And it is in that time that they do exactly what he wants and that perception on the president s Chief Rival on Capitol Hill who goes on to lead the first impeachment against him is one that raises a lot of questions. Mike schmidt, what were they looking for in 2017 and 18 in the Email And Phone records of Schiff And Swalwell . We dont have as i was saying in terms of what they were exactly on the hunt for we dont know. They were looking at the Staff Members. Obviously we now know that in the pursuit of the Staff Members that they looked at one of the account of a child. Thats the problem is that because of the perception of the president s comments we cannot accept what the Justice Department did in good faith because there was a lot of things im sorry. There was a lot of things going on at that time in which the president was he was openly saying that the Justice Department was there to serve him. An arm of his own political ends. You Guys Name names and it is an incredibly detailed piece of reporting about the internal processes about who was in charge, briefing different officials. I want to read from the reporting. You list mr. Demers, and still at the Justice Department. Their continued presence would seem to ensure that the Biden Appointees would have a full understanding of the investigations. Do you have any reporting that suggest that the current leadership knew what their role was in seeking subpoenas and whether Theres Recourse against the individuals you name . Im sure that the folks now running the Justice Department for biden knew something about this because schiff and his staff were told about this back i believe in may. And that would have come from the biden Justice Department. I think that this case highlights something that we often sort of miss about the Justice Department. That is, that while there are a lot of political appointees who obviously run the place put there by the president there are these Career Prosecutors that are dedicated to these cases and that aggressively go after them. Same prosecutors working on the cases worked on similar ones that involved colleagues in years past. So obviously those people, Career People are still there. But on a larger level, i think that one of the questions that i would be interested to see if the Ig Answers is how much did the garland folks know about this. For example in the case of seeking Email Information from my email and three of my colleagues, that started in january of 2021. And it was only last friday that The Times was lifted in a Gag Order and the Justice Department said they had given up the effort to get our records so thats a very long period of time into the garland Justice Department. Andrew weissman, pick up where Mike Schmidt led us. What is a deputy Attorney General like Lisa Monacos situational awareness about the efforts to obtain reporters emails and about this what is described as extremely aggressive tactic for a Noncorruption Kind of investigation of subpoenaing the records of sitting members of congress, their staff and children . So theres no question that to subpoena this kind of information you would need extensive Factual Pred case and you would brief this to the highest levels in the fbi and the Justice Department. My educated guess about whats going on here is the reason were seeing this, i suspect will see more of this, is because these Gag Orders are running out and that the current Justice Department is not willing to stand behind them when theyre not warranted. To me thats a sign as we saw last week with respect to going after reporters, as mike just mentioned where Gag Orders were not defend fd, in the reporting Last Night There was great by The New York Times i think what you are seeing are the Gag Orders lifted as information now is going up to the dag and Attorney General. I suspect whats going on is theyre shocked about whats going on. I dont think the response of going to the Inspector General is sufficient. Thats going to take years. The Inspector General was notably absent in the Trump Administration and has to be a systemic answer to this. There can be hearings and congress does have the power to require more out of the executive so that i have No Doubt that garland is going to run a clean Justice Department but thats not the issue. What do we do when theres no longer a Merrick Garland and somebody more like Attorney General barr . And congress can require the Justice Department to make showings that are much higher than what they needed to show here, factually and getting the court more involved so that you have a greater check on the socalled Unitary Executive which i think is the heart of the problem here. So let me show you. Adam schiffs Response Overlaps with the things you are saying. Lets show you and talk about it on the other side. The truth is i dont know how broad these subpoenas were except that they were extraordinarily broad. Went out to a staff not related to the committee. Who had no responsibilities on the committee. And in terms of how many members were affected, part of the difficulties is a lot of people who got this notice from apple thought it was spam. And we may learn more about others who similarly got the notices as they go back and check their old email to see whether they got a notice like this. What kind of thing would predicate an extremely broad and sweeping subpoena of records of an unknown number of members of congress, staffs and children . It would be you would need to have substantial evidence. At the fbi, there is something called an s. I. M. Sensitive Investigation Group that goes to the general counsel, the Deputy Director which very senior members who would review something like this before it was approved. In other words for something this sensitive you dont want it to be left to more junior people who may or may not have the right judgment and then briefed to the dag and to the Attorney General for something that is this sensitive. So to me this is something where theres just an unusual failure because It Wreaks of being a phishing expedition. Which is how you get to autocracy. Neil, exactly what actually what Donald Trump was saying out loud he wanted to do. Theres reporting in 2017 or 18 that he wanted the Justice Department to prosecute hillary clinton, to prosecute James Comey. Accused mccabe of treason. I believe called James Comey a traitor. Now we know that his trumpiest of all of the whatever he had three or four Attorneys General generate. What do you make of the denial of Bill Barr . Ill believe the denial and the recollection just about as ill believe the summary of the mueller report. This is bombshell reporting. Really significant and not just to an extreme but how tyrannical regimes operate. This news is like putin with nixon sitting in a tree and you come up with trump and sessions and barr. E welcome tronnic spying on opponents in congress and families and mikes absolutely right to say that the whole thing proves what we have suspected which is that trumps public tweets, the bluster, Did Zeal Created A Real Sense in the administration that Donald Trump demanded abuses of power. This is not an inquiry into what Representative Schiff ate for breakfast. This is the numbers through Law Enforcement Investigation of Everyone Schiff called and everyone who called him and the other dozen people including Family Members and the like and the rational for this investigation once again was about russia, whos disclosing secret meetings between Trump Administration officials and russian officials and why James Comey was fired, all roads with the Trump Administration somehow lead back to russia and covering up and squelch an oversight which is Congress Job under the constitution. So with all that stated, let me show you how Bill Barr answered a question about investigating, taking requests for investigations from the president. Attorney general barr, has the President Or Anyone at the White House asked that you open an investigation of anyone . I wouldnt yes or no. Could you repeat that question . I will repeat it. Has the President Or Anyone at the White House ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone . Yes or no, please, sir. The President Or Anybody else. Seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us. Yeah. But im trying to grapple with the word suggest. There have been discussions of matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation. But perhaps suggested . I dont know. I wouldnt say suggest. Hinted . I dont know. Inferred . You dont know . Okay. So neil, this sounds so different now. At the time we were all hung up on him struggling with the suggest means. Isnt the public record that Donald Trump publicly calling for investigations into rivals. What sort of questions do congressional officials now have real reason to have answered under oath from mr. Barr . Yeah. You and i were covering that hearing live when barr testified and i think we sensed then on Fis Case and now more and not just barr and will have to go back to Jeff Sessions as well and see what hes up to and poor Jeff Sessions cant catch a break. Fired as Attorney General. He loses his senate primary. He is now facing a potential subpoena from congress and Bill Barr blaming him for the Spying Stuff and enough to make you feel bad for him but he deserved it. They spit on the traditions of the Justice Department, they obfuscated and this with then Senator Harris Congress at the best trying to do what Madison And Hamilton asked of congress which is to oversee the Executive Branch and the stories now is so significant because those very people performing that Oversight Job were being electronically spied on by these same folks. Thats the antithesis of what the constitution is all about. Andrew, i want to come back to the names. Mr. Demers i believe in charge of the national Security Division. Is that where Leak Investigations are housed . What role would Rod Rosenstein and the office had to oversee investigations . Could Bill Barr have left this in the deputy Attorney Generals office . I wonder where an Inspector General will start. Leak investigations can happen in u. S. Attorneys office, national Security Division that John Demers was the head of. Because theres a national Security Component it makes a lot of sense that you would have the national Security Division in charge of that. Normally you would say this would definitely get briefed to the dag and perhaps end there but thats not how barr ran the Justice Department and ran it out of the Attorney Generals office and also the chief Operationing Officer and the Attorney General. It is inconceivable this is done without the knowledge of the Attorney General in Undertaking Something like this. John demers there as are three of the other people that The New York Times reported on i think they need to be asked the questions. Wait for the Attorney General to say to the Inspector General look into this. Those are people who are currently there. And its incumbent on the current Attorney General to make sure he knows what happened and that he can make sure it doesnt happen again and can make sure that there arent other instances of this which im sure as we sit here today on tv there are going to be more. Mike, do you have any sense from the coverage and the fallout in the hours since the story published last night that the senior leaders are repentant . Defensive . Are they not saying that thches all we did. What is the reaction since the story published . Folks that were working at the top of the Justice Department would argue that, look, there had been damaging leaks of Donald Trump which is true. Donald trump had been the victim of several of these leaks. They had turned the presidency Upside Down. The handling makes them far worse for them and leaks, national security information. These investigators would say we had probable cause. We went to court to get the Gag Orders why federal judges signed often on them. And theyll live with the consequences of their decision. On a completely sort of different note i was thinking after listening to andrew speak there, it is sort of amazing. The Russia Meddled in the 2016 election. And they set off all this stuff were still dealing with today. More than five years after that. And we are talking about the Kislyak Leak or what type of leak from the russia investigation. And the long term ramifications that the meddling in the election had, not just for the 2016 election but the way that it the political stew of the country and turned it Inside Out and Upside Down and we are still fighting and talking about it. Its just a remarkable thing and did cost the russians much money. Andrew on that note, the last word since you spent years of your life investigating the Trump Teams ties to russia. To me the biggest issue right now that we are facing is that it is really important for the department of justice to be independent of the White House. It is fine for President Biden to make that loud and clear his policy. But that is just a norm and a policy. It is not written in law. What we are seeing now is the need for actual guardrails. Not policies. Laws that are going to prevent this kind of thing and whether the it is the Justice Department seeking information on democrats or republicans, there has to be a higher Factual Pred case. Right. Unbelievable piece of reporting. Grateful to have you here to talk about it. Still to come for us, more on this huge top story about the Trump Era Doj hunting its critics. Well talk with a member of the Judiciary Committee on what congress plans to do next. Plus well turn to what this Justice Department announced this afternoon. Showing just how seriously theyre taking the Voting Restrictions passed in states why what they are doing and how he says they are expanding the right to vote and central to the democracy. Also how it all started. The push to suppress votes at the State Level. Now those lies are bringing Death Threats and intimidation to State Election officials. All those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. One, two one, two, three only pay for what you need with customized Car Insurance from Liberty Mutual nothing rhymes with Liberty Mutual. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Paul loves food. But his diabetes made food a mystery. Everything felt like a no. but then paul went from no to know. With Freestyle Libre 14 day, now he knows how food affects his glucose. And he knows when to make different choices. Take the mystery out of your Glucose Levels and lower your a1c. Now you know. Try it for free. Visit freestylelibre. Us no, hes not in his room. Dad, why didnt you answer your phone . Your mother loved this park. She did. When youre born and raised in San Francisco, you grow up wanting to make a difference. Thats why, at recology, were proud to be 100 employee owned with local workers as diverse as San Francisco. We built the citys Recycling System from the ground up, helping to make San Francisco the greenest Big City In America but we couldnt do it without you. Thank you, San Francisco. Gracias, San Francisco. Thank you. [ speaks native language ] lets keep Making A Differene together. Today the man of the hour Attorney General garland is promising to meet the moment. Deliver on the fight for Voting Rights Outlining steps he says the Justice Department and civil Rights Division are taking to secure the fundamental right to vote for all americans including those in states that are working to suppress those rights. Watch. The challenge of the current moment we must rededicate the resources of the department of justice to a critical part of its original mission. Enforcing federal law to protect the franchise for all voters. The civil Rights Division is going to need more lawyers. Accordingly today im announcing within the next 30 days we will double the Divisions Enforcement Staff for protecting the right to vote. We are scrutinizing new laws that seek to curb Voter Access and where we see violations will not hesitate to act and scrutinizing current laws and practices to determine whether they discriminate black voters and other voters of color. Joining the conversation the reverend Al Sharpton, host of politics nation. Also author and professor, michael Eric Dyson. Neil is still here. Neil, from inside the Justice Department, what does this mean . Does this mean filing lawsuits against the states that have passed Voter Suppression laws . It does. First launching new investigations and then filing the lawsuits and not surprising that he is doing this. When Joe Biden was elected i think everyone knew he would restore the Justice Department and the modern Justice Department is since the 1960s is the civil Rights Division, is voting enforcement. The building is robert f. Kennedy Justice Department. By name. And so i think youre going to see a large number of investigations that will be launched. It is not just usual the barriers of lawyers but the laws to enforce and the problem is since 1965 through 2013 we had the voting Rights Act section 5 requiring southern states trying to change the Voting Laws to have it approved by the Justice Department staff in washington d. C. Or by a federal court. That was struck down by the Supreme Court in a 54 vote in 2013. Id argue the same issue in 2009 and upheld and then four years later they flipped and the loss of that provision is why a dozen states in the last few moths enacting 22 different restrictive Voting Laws. Some would have never sufficed under section 5 so this is great. The Staff Action is good but legislation is also needed to restore section 5. So thats federal legislation that needs to restore section 5. Short of that what can they do . Well take one state as an example. Georgia has passed their Voter Restrictions predicated in the words of republican Lieutenant Governor on a lie. Its also stripped brad raffensberger, the Secretary Of State, of some authority and strengthens the authority of State Legislatures. Are there problems with those damaging to the Democracy Moves . How do you prevail on a lawsuit against what a State Legislature does and a governor signs into law . The problem is that it takes time because you can bring lawsuits under section 2 of the voting Rights Act and challenge those but those lawsuits take years and years to wind through the courts and thats why Justice Ginsberg in 2013 said thats why we need section 5. I dont doubt that the laws will hopefully be struck down over time. It takes a long time and then you have the problem that trump put some trumpy judges on the courts who arent necessarily in favor of enforcing the law as written. Rev, i want your thoughts to the announcement by the Attorney General today as well as your views on what neil is talking about, whether the law will be on the side of the Justice Department coming in after theyre passed to get them struck down. I was very happy to hear what the Attorney General announced today. National Action Network had supported him becoming Attorney General because he said he would pick up where former Attorney General Eric Holder had left off by bringing lawsuits against voter i. D. And other impediments. I was happy today because we have had meetings this week, me and National Action network with seven other civil rights groups with manchin to push for the legislation. You need the legislation so that you wont replace the map. I was in the courtroom for the oral arguments in 2013 when they ruled against it which took the map out in terms of preclearance. You need that done by legislation. Which would make it a process that they could have not done a lot of what theyre doing in these states to preclear it. Absent that the only thing you can do in the interim is to aggressively go after lawsuits which the Attorney General did today and reminiscent of history of Robert Kennedy wanted to deal with the voting Rights Act of 65. Marshall said you have to hire a lot of lawyers to show that this Attorney General was serious he said hes going to give Christian Clark the head of the civil Rights Division more personnel so it is going to be aggressive but not expediting or expeditious in the same sense if we had the Legislation Theyd have to preclear it and couldnt be doing a lot of things theyre doing in georgia, texas, florida and about a dozen states a the this point so this is a steph forward and nowhere near where we need to go. We need the bills passed so it becomes law. I wondered seeing the Speech Today if this is some of what white House Chief of Staff Klain was alluding to saying there would be more news. Ill ask you all to stay with us. We have much more on this story. Dont go anywhere. Well be right back. Back. With help from the brands you trust. Make Pickyeaters Master chefs and make your life simpler with flexible Financing And Installation services. However you make it, make It Work for you. Wayfair, way more than furniture. Wayfair youve got just what i need Theres Interest you accrue, and interests you pursue. Plans for the long term, and plans for a long weekend. At thrivent, we believe money is a tool, not a goal. To learn more, text thrive to 444555, or visit thrivent. Com. That Delicious Scramble was microwaved . Get outta here. Everybodys a skeptic. Wright brothers . More like, yeah right, brothers get outta here its not crazy. Its a scramble. Just crack an egg. Time for new Reading Glasses . Go to readers. Com choose from hundreds of styles and colors, for under 20. And now, enter this exclusive Tv Coupon Code at checkout to save up to 40 . Thats readers. Com the great John Lewis recalled an important lesson taught by dr. Martin Luther King jr. Quote, he said, each of us has a moral obligation to Stand Up, speak up and speak out. When you see something that is not right, you must say something. You must do something. Democracy is not a state. It is an act. And each generation must do its part. We are back with the reverend Al Sharpton, michael Eric Dyson and neil. Professor, your reaction . It is absolutely necessary for the Attorney General to use the Bully Pulpit of his officer for ideas that protect american citizens right to vote. In 2013 with the rejection of preclearance as the predicate for judicial oversight it is even more necessary for legislators and the department of justice to vigorously pursue democracy and the right to vote for ordinary citizens and the shenanigans, the tricks deployed by republicanled State Legislatures throughout the country shows the evil ingenuity of a far right wing that understood stack the Supreme Court, take hold of these State Legislators that are able to put forth bills that are fundamentally unjust and then it will take years and years to untangle and by that time youre had a concrete political outcome thats manifestly unjust. It is a manipulation of the american democratic process but not an effective one. We must have equal vigor on the part of the Justice Department and politicians who are out to make certain that the protection of the right to vote is critical to our sense of American Democracy. Professor, this idea of equal vigor is something we have talked about a lot here. There is an asymmetry to the Speed And Competence with which the effort manifested itself in bills signed into law. 22 new laws since the november election. They disproportionately impact voters that republicans have given up on. Let me show you a little bit more of Attorney General garland speaking specifically about how they disproportionately impact communities of color. Progress to protect Voting Rights and especially for Black Americans and other people of color has never been steady. Moments of voting Rights Expansion have often been met with counter efforts to curb the franchise. And actually securing the protections guaranteed by our constitution and laws always required vigilant enforcement by congress, the courts and the Justice Department. Professor, do you have confidence that a legal push and this is obviously a priority for garland. This is obviously going to be well resourced but having spent time in the republican party these laws arent even disguised as anything other than. Look at the florida bill. It is brazenly disproportionately impacting black texans by taking Drop Boxes out of places where the theyre not republicans arent trying to hide the point of these laws. Do you have confidence that the Justice Department even with something that appears to be a top priority for garland is going to be well funded is enough to counter what republicans are doing . It wont by itself be enough but critical. It is not such but it is necessary. We have to figure out ways to foster the resources of the state in defense of its citizens. And this is exactly what is going on here. The antidemocratic impulse of the republican party is not simply manifest refusing to investigate january 6, 2021. Because it says its committed to democracy but indeed is anything but. This claims that there are many shenanigans going on behind the scene. Voter misconduct and the like. Is nothing but confession of the practices of many of these republican politicians. We need Al Sharpton on the front line. We need organizations keeping the pressure up. We need the Attorney General to embolden the to make sure that they are able to do the jobs and to do it well. But history does show us when there is intention expressed by the presidency and when the department of justice takes that lead to defend those who are most vulnerable a vigorous fight does mean Theres Pushbag against the 361 bills in the offing, 21 that have been put into law, passed into law and it means that the Fight Wont simply be surrender. The republicans across the board are having a fight. Theyre doing it with critical Race Theory with no idea what it means, with the schools and education. Theyre doing it with Public Policy and now with Voting Rights. We have got to Stand Up And Fight back. By itself it wont happen but connecting and joining in that fight means the world to those whose rights are being compromised or in some cases repudiated. Reverend, talk about what the sort of holistic Campaign Effort looks like to protect Voting Rights. You have doj on the front lines. You have been on the front lines as the professor is saying. You continue to push with the assistance of Vice President Kamala Harris for federal legislation. Is that the picture and the plan . Well, as well as there will be a Mounting Campaign on the ground, rallies to put pressure on the legislators. The immediate is to get the legislation through section 1. Because even the John Lewis bill will not deal with the laws that have already been changed why it would deal with going forward. And Speaker Pelosi said we wont know the John Lewis bill until late summer, early fall. We need the immediacy of the legislation. The other part that i think that is important came to mind when dr. Dyson is speaking is dont forget when you go in with the federal lawsuits, i hope some of these people in the states that are changing the law, one of the thing of lawsuits is they have to under oath not as soon as i would like but they will have to explain some phony data they have been quoting and then reach a federal perjury to defend the bogus reasons to change the law. So i would love to see some of them putt the hand on the Bible And Lie about why they found things that have no reality at all to being in existence. You need the immediate with legislation and you need with the Justice Department going to do to expose the bogus and outright fabricated reasons that theyre doing these laws. Put them under oath in a federal lawsuit and make them swear to tell the truth and get them the orange suits. I just want to close by telling the viewers about something else that Attorney General said about the phony audits. The Justice Department will do everything to prevent Election Fraud if found. But many of the justifications in Postelection Audits relied on lies why that have been refuted in this administration and last as well as in every court that has considered them. The refr rend, professor, neil, thank you so much to all three for spending time with us today. When we come back, how todays doj announcement is received by the states trying to limit who votes. Michigans secretary of State Fighting that on the front lines will join us next. This is the sound of change. The sound of A Thousand sighs of relief. And the sound of a company watching out for you. This is the sound of low Cash Mode from pnc bank, giving you multiple options and at least 24 hours to help you avoid an overdraft fee. Because we believe how you handle overdrafts should be in your control, not just your banks. Low Cash Mode on virtual wallet from pnc bank. One way were making a difference. 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Ill be eating a Falafel Wrap with sweet potato fries. doorbell rings thanks splitsies . Oooh. You meant the food, didnt you . Here we go. [john legends i can see clearly now] make your reunion happen with vrbo. Your together awaits. Vrbo. New Revelations Today on the harassment facing those working to protect our democracy, threats based on the former president s baseless claims of fictional widespread Election Fraud. Reuters is reporting of messages being sent to Election Workers all across the country, and officials like Georgias Secretary of state, brad raffensperger, and his family, so harrowing weve decided not to amplify them here. Well tell you about raffenspergers response. He said this. The continuing false claims of a stolen election have led to violent and Death Threats, intimidation, and claims of Prison Time coming for Election Workers. They keep coming. Real leaders need to take steps to stop it. So far, they have not. Joining us now is Michigans Secretary of state, jocelyn benson. Madam secretary, i want to get your thoughts to all of the news from the Attorney General on Voting Rights, but i want to start with this really chilling reporting from reuters, and i want to ask you i know you confirmed, your staff confirms in this reuters reporting that you still receive threats. Can you just talk about what thats like to be protecting the will of the voters in your State And Face threats of violence for doing so . Well, its a consistent reminder in the states what were under right now. I had that moment where people were gathered outside my home in december and i just realized that theyre not you realize theyre protesting democracy. And theyre protesting this foundation of our government, and we personify that. Our Election Administrators personify that, but its a you know, its a much bigger threat that were seeing manifest itself in lots of different ways. It remains chilling, and i agree with secretary raffensperger. We need all hands on deck, and we need accountability. Thats the only way its really going to diminish, but that said, im also, you know, grateful with the removal of the former president from Social Media, a significant avenue that it would escalate those threats in the past has diminished, so but here we are now, over seven months since the polls closed in november 2020, still at the local and State Level dealing with folks who who have made, you know, violent threats against myself and others simply because were doing our job and defending democracy. And at least for the known threats of domestic violent extremism, it is all rooted in the Big Lie. President bidens Attorney General, Merrick Garland, today, trying to sort of step into the Voter Suppression laws inspired by the Big Lie, and i would love to hear your reaction to what was announced today. Yeah, as you mentioned, the ongoing effort to feed the Big Lie, to continue to seed it with misinformation, like whats happening in arizona, is manifesting itself in lots of different ways through false legislation in the states thats trying to now respond to the Big Lie and protect the security of our elections, when our elections are already very secure. It was really gratifying to see the federal government, particularly the Attorney General, Step Up and prioritize protecting the people, protecting our democracy, and i was struck, really, by two things. One, we talk about in 2020, the battles we fought to protect democracy and how that is escalating, but one critical tool we didnt have standing with us at the state and local level in those battles was the Justice Department. And so, the fact that well now have that with the whole panoply of federal protections at play, like the voting Rights Act and a number of other laws that he mentioned, really is a significant addition to the efforts to protect and defend democracy moving forward, so very grateful for that and the resources that hes putting behind that with my good friend, kristen clarke, whos now at the helm of the civil Rights Division and the Resources Shell have. I was also really gratified that he didnt really couch it in partisan terms as much throughout history as race and talking about that reality, that weve, you know, he quoted president bush, he made the point that protecting democracy must be and can be and historically has been a bipartisan issue and then but then also recognizing the way that race has interwoven throughout efforts to block access to the vote. I think thats an important emphasis that we need to place to recognize the connectivity between even those who make threats against Election Administrators, the element of the restrictions on democracy being a reaction to an increasingly diverse citizenry. And the empowerment that comes from through that diversity. Its an important part of the piece here of our work to protect democracy and those who are trying to dismantle it. And it was really gratifying to see the Attorney General of the united states take that head on. And i know the timing is really important. I know theres a voter restriction, voter, i think, i. D. Laws racing through your State Legislature, so well stay on that with your help. Were really grateful to get to talk to you today. Michigan Secretary Of State jocelyn benson, thank you so much for spending some time with us this hour. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. We really are just getting started today. Anywhere. 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Ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy. And save at trelegy. Com. upbeat music [narrator] this is kate. She always wanted her smile to shine. Now, she uses a capful of therabreath healthy smile oral rinse to give her the healthy, sparkly smile she always wanted. Crowd Cheering therabreath, its a better mouthwash. At walmart, target and other fine stores. Ive actually called the Justice Department to look into the leaks. Those are criminal leaks. I think Adam Schiff is the biggest leaker in washington. You know that. I know that. We all know that. Ive watched Adam Schiff leak. Hes a corrupt politician. Hes a leaker like nobodys ever seen before. They ought to investigate Adam Schiff for leaking that information. He should not be leaking information out of intelligence. They ought to investigate Adam Schiff. He would repeatedly attack our committee, attack me personally, call for investigations of our committee while we were doing an investigation of him, and apparently, those pleas were met with a receptive audience at the very top level in the Justice Department. Among sessions and Bill Barr, even though there was no evidence to support a leak coming from our committee. Hi again, everyone, its 5 00 in the east. Trump asked, and his doj answered. Alarming new reporting from The New York Times shows that president trump, who was obsessed with his critics in the democratic party and repeatedly, as you saw there, called for investigations into them, just might have succeeded in turning the Justice Department into more of a personal Police Force. The times citing House Intelligence Committee officials and two other people briefed on the inquiry is reporting today that federal prosecutors in early 2017 and 18 took the extraordinary step of Subpoenaing Apple for data from the accounts of democratic congressman Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell. Aides on the House Intelligence Committee and their Family Members, including a minor. It was part of a Leak Investigation looking for sources behind reports about contacts between trump associates and russia. That investigation reportedly hit a Dead End. It failed to find anything to tie the democrats and the committee to the leaks, but it was revived a year later by Bill Barr. Nbc news has reached out to Attorneys General sessions and barr and has yet to receive any response. My phone is on. Bill barr told politico that he doesnt recall getting briefed on any congressmans records being sought in a leak case. Now, news of this unprecedented probe breaking now thanks to the expiration of a Gag Order that the Justice Department secured against apple, and it is prompting a wave of criticism from democrats and a demand for a full accounting of just what happened. Top senate Democrats Today calling for sessions and barr to testify and after Speaker Pelosi joined Adam Schiff in calling for a sweeping investigation, the Garland Doj announced that the Inspector General of doj is launching an inquiry. But theres still major questions about what the Biden Doj will do to address what appears to be deep signs of rot inside the department, a number of officials involved in the probe are still working at doj. Right now. Like, this afternoon. Today. And a House Intelligence Committee official tells Nbc News that the biden Justice Department has been Stonewalling Requests by Chairman Schiff for information about the subpoena for his data. Congressman Eric Swalwell Today Warning that this unprecedented investigation into trumps critics underscores the need for sweeping change at the Justice Department. Watch. This is unacceptable. Anyone who was involved in this should be fired and walked out of the department immediately, because jim, look, this is not a 500year flood. Donald trump is not going away. Trumpism and corruption manifests itself in others in government right now, and next time they may not, you know, be so patient to wait for an investigation. A more corrupt president may just cut to the chase and lock up his or her political opponents without trying to have the department of justice do it so thats why we should make it very clear that we dont do this in this country. And that is where we start this hour with congressman Ted Lieu, democrat of california, a how the Impeachment Manager during the expresident s second Impeachment Trial as well as a member of the House Judiciary and foreign affairs committee. First, congressman, thank you for joining us and i love your reaction to what we all learned last night in The New York Times. Thank you, nicole. Authoritarian governments try to silence their critics, such as journalists and elected officials by Seizing Records and contacts. Were the united states of america. We should not be doing this. The department of justice should not have done this and anyone involved, and i agree with representative swalwell, needs to resign, because they dont understand the separation of powers. They dont understand what a huge scandal this is. We need to get to the bottom of it. Well, congressman, The New York Times reports at least four individuals who were involved in different pieces of Leak Investigations. There was someone they describe as having no relevant experience who was flown in by barr to Spear Head these probes. Mr. Demmers is there doing the same job under Merrick Garland. Would you like to see these individuals suspended while an investigation is conducted . Yes. These folks at the Justice Department, every one of them, including Merrick Garland, took an oath. That oath was not to the president. It was not to the office of the president. It was to the constitution of the united states, and for this scandal to have happened tells me that there are many people involved in this scandal who do not understand the oath they took. It is to respect the constitution, not to maximize president ial power, so we need to get to the bottom of this, have hearings, Have Barr and sessions and others testify. I have a weird question. Congressman schiff makes clear that apple sent out emails and he said, some people may have been involved and not even know it because they might have thought that apples emails were spam. Why didnt anyone from the garland Justice Department call all of you on the committee . That is a great question. I dont know the answer to that. Department of justice also knew about what happened for years, including this year. Why is it that all of a sudden theyre now having an Inspector General investigation . They called for it, which, by the way, is a good step. Because of the free press. That is not how the Garland Doj should be working. They should be trying to do the right thing not only when the press exposes misconduct. Well, i mean, along those lines, congressman, theyve also been in court this month pursuing data from journalists. I want to show you something Congressman Schiff said that is very much in line with things youre saying about the need to clean house. Lets watch. Well talk about it on the other side. I think the Attorney General has an obligation to clean house, to essentially understand exactly what the department was doing over the last four years, make sure that Theres Accountability for those that were engaged in political and partisan investigations within the department. And you know, in terms of the overstep in congress, i dont think i have a role in that, given that some of my records were apparently the subject of a subpoena. But i think other committees, as part of their oversight responsibilities, ought to ask the Attorney General and others, and i do think the department needs to do a wholesale review of the politicization of these cases over the last four years. First of all, do you agree with that description of what is needed right now, today, a cleaning of house and a wholesale review of the politics that were involved in criminal cases . I completely agree with Chairman Schiff, and let me just walk through a few examples. This spying on members of congress and trying to get metadata and other information is a gross, gross abuse of president ial power that the department of justice engaged in. I also believe its a gross abuse of president ial power to have the department of justice attorneys protect and represent Donald Trump in a Rape Defamation Lawsuit of e. Jean carroll. Its also a gross abuse of president ial power to not release the Bill Barr memo where he basically lied about what was in the mueller report. And in each case, youve got the Garland Department of justice enabling this abuse of president ial power. This department of Justice Wont even acknowledge that congressional subpoenas are valid, so we need the Attorney General of the united states to really take a look at the oath he took. It was to the constitution. Its not to maximize abuses of the office of the president. Yeah, those two cases are cited to me as well by legal scholars who say they have nothing to do with defending laws on the books. As you say, one is defending an expresident in an allegation of rape and defamation. The other, a Bad Faith move, so bad that Robert Mueller, who seems very reluctant to speak out on anything, called him to complain. Congressman Ted Lieu, i hope we can continue to call on you in this really rapidly developing story after the news broke last night. Thank you so much for starting us off this hour. Thank you. Joining our conversation now, daniel goldman, former assistant u. S. Attorney for the southern district of new york, and former impeachment Inquiry Majority Counsel during the first trump impeachment. And Jeremy Bash is here, former Chief Of Staff at the Cia And Department of defense and an msnbc national Security Analyst. Its wonderful to see both of you, especially with this kind of reporting out. Jeremy, i want to start with you. On what i have heard from people all across the ideological spectrum, frankly, about ive heard from sort of former bush people who will say privately, if we had done this, they would have killed us, and i have heard from democrats, including congressman Ted Lieu there and Adam Schiff Last Night Calling for a wholesale review and a House Cleaning by the garland Justice Department of anyone that was involved. Hey, nicole, first, i think there are multiple red flags here. First, any time youre investigating overseers, meaning, congressional overseers, youre creeping on separation of powers, and youre violating the sanctity of the Oversight Process and i think only the top levels of the Justice Department could Green Light an investigation of members of congress. Thats point one. Second is the investigative techniques utilized here, collecting metadata, in my experience, is unprecedented. Ive been involved in Leak Investigations. Ive known about them. Ive known that members of Congress And Staff have been questioned. Ive never known their records to be surreptitiously and clandestinely collected without their knowledge. Third is, this looks clearly partisan because it was only aimed at democrats and any time youre engaged in prosecutorial action, you have to go out of your way to show that i think its not partisan, that it is above board, and this, in no way, met that basic test. And then finally the fact that Bill Barr extended the inquiry of the investigation long after it was dormant and there was nothing to see here, shows just how willing he was going to placate Donald Trump. Its clear the White House was involved here. Otherwise, Barr Wouldnt have paid so much attention to it. I think this is a five Alarm Fire and really needs to be investigated, not just by congress and not just by the Inspector General but potentially by other criminal investigative bodies. Are you suggesting a Special Counsel . What other criminal investigative body . Well, im suggesting a duly authorized Justice Department investigation where potentially those who violated the laws against electronic surveillance can be held criminally accountable. I dont know if thats a Special Counsel or its a special u. S. Attorney or a John Durhamlike activity but you know, the Justice Department has tools to hold accountable people who violate laws against electronic surveillance of unauthorized targets. You know, and i just want to very narrowly focus with you on, dan, on something jeremys saying. I mean, in a noncorruption style probe, there is not any known precedent for subpoenaing through apple the Phone And Email metadata of a sitting member of congress, especially as hes saying from the other party and at this point, we dont know of anybody in the republican party who had their records subpoenaed from apple. You worked for Congressman Schiff, and you and sort of the Impeachment Team were on the Receiving End of those barbs. What is your theory . What are your sort of first reactions to what we know at this juncture . Well, theyre a combination of things that lead me to believe that this is, perhaps, the most serious and egregious overreach and abuse of power related to the department of justice that we saw during the Trump Administration. The first is, i would very much like to know what The Predication was for authorizing grand Jury Subpoenas to apple for this information. And as he said, in a sensitive issue like this, you would need more than just simple accusations from a politician. Youd need to have, i think, some real evidence to show that there is real concern that Chairman Schiff, representative swalwell, some of my former colleagues as Staff Members, were actually leaking information. And what i can tell you is having worked for Chairman Schiff and worked with many of all of these people, i assume. I dont know who all they are, but all of them are, but perhaps most of them, there was no leaking going on. Whatever the accusations that Donald Trump wants to make, they are baseless. This is not something that any of us did, that Chairman Schiff ever did, that Eric Swalwell ever did, and so i would really want to understand what the basic predication was to open this, because i dont think there is any, and thats really, really scary. The second thing is this investigation is closed now. When there are open investigations, there are real Confidentiality Concerns within the department of justice but when investigations are closed, those Confidentiality Concerns fall aside. And so i dont know what the basis is for the department of justice apparently rejecting Chairman Schiffs requests for more information, including what The Predication was, but that ordinary give and take between the department of Justice And Congress is very different when a case is an investigation is closed, regardless of what is found and clearly here there was nothing found. So, those are two really, really important issues. Yeah. I want to just sort of drill down on something youre saying. So and just for anyone who isnt so steeped in these standards, Predication And Jump in if i get this wrong, dan, is probable cause. And what kind of thing would justify what happened to Congressman Schiff . He described a sweeping subpoena of him, of at least one other democratic member, of all their staffs and some of their children. What on and as you said, that investigation, as egregious as it was, found nothing, was then revived again without, as far as we know, predication. So, dan, i mean, what what would satisfy your question to understand appropriate predication . Well, predication is a little less than probable cause, but still, you would want to understand that youd have to have information. I mean, the best example of this, nicole, would be a Confidential Informant comes in, tells a detective, i just witnessed a Drug Deal between these two people. You should open an investigation and heres the Guys Phone Number and then you go get a grand Jury Subpoena for the metadata related to that phone. Okay. That makes sense. Thats something where you have a trusted Confidential Informant who gives you information. Who was that informant here . Because what i can tell you, also, nicole, having been there, is that there were Staff Members on the republican side who were leaking false information about democratic Staff Members as well, while i was there, which was after these subpoenas. And they were leaking, also, sensitive information that we came upon. So, the question i have is, what is the source for the department of Justices Belief that there was reasonable suspicion that Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, someone else, was the source of the leaks. Jeremy has a good point about the aggressiveness of this type of technique but im taking a step back earlier, which is how do you even open a grand Jury Investigation into this . This is the type of stuff that Vladimir Putin does to Alexey Navalny and we used to hear for years, dont listen to Donald Trump, his bark is worse than his bite. Well, we now have two examples where its not just the rantings of a madman. As youll recall, there was, russia, are you listening . And then we learned that russia was listening and five hours later they tried to hack into Hillarys Computer and now we have trumps rantings about Adam Schiff and how hes a leaker and a crooked politician and now were learning there actually was an execution on those rantings that we now know that the department of justice initiated an investigation . This is really, really serious stuff. And the Inspector General must look into this with Intensity And Aggressiveness and from that point, the Inspector General can refer, for criminal prosecution, anyone who did any wrongdoing as part of this investigation. Jeremy, youre both blowing my mind here, but i want to try to pick up on this idea of what was happening in 17 and 18, and youre both right, unprecedented tactics and an unprecedented standard, we believe, likely applied to Congressman Schiff but it was also an unprecedented time for an American President s national Security Advisor to lie to the fbi. It was an unprecedented example of a president asking his Fbi Director, jim comey, to see to it to drop an investigation into Mike Flynn for doing that. Its an unprecedented assault against Robert Mueller who was appointed to probe campaign tiles, an unprecedented offer of pardons on the part of the president s lawyer to some of the targets who were first swept up in the mueller probe. The whole thing was unprecedented. Is it time to sort of abandon that and examine this as the m. O. Of the Trump Orbit and the trump White House, that they went after, and they used the tools of the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute anyone who was on to their ties with russia. Its a great question, nicole, because i think Dans Point about predication is right, and even if you take even a step back from there, is, what was the thing that was revealed to the media or to the public that shouldnt have been revealed . I mean, normally, in a Leak Investigation, and by the way, i think there is a role for Leak Investigations in government. You have sensitive national defense information, like an operational action, like, you know, youre involved in a Counterterrorism Raid and somehow that information gets spilled to the media and It Tips off the target so they can get away. Here, the information that was revealed to the public was wrongdoing. Wrongdoing by the Trump Administration. Wrongdoing by Mike Flynn in conspiring with kisliyak. Wrongdoing by Donald Trump to beat down jim comey, wrongdoing in terms of contacts between the Trump Team and agents of the russian federation. So, first, i think the first abuse here is that the Justice Department saw fit to investigate the release of information that showed that the Trump Administration was engaged in wrongdoing visavis russia, and i think any investigation by an Inspector General, by other competent authority, needs to examine that first principle here because among the red flags here, that one stands out. In terms of what stands out here, dan, i know you flagged this example of, to put it the most diplomatically, extreme hypocrisy. Let me play this. This is Congressman Collins attacking you over the topic of metadata. Lets watch. Its interesting to see, to me, that the calls in the metadata, not the content. What the problem i have here is this. If rudy, nunes, were the only Phone Records returned from the subpoena, why these released . It was a driveby. It was a gratuitous driveby that you wanted to smear these people. Im not saying you knew the content. You just admitted just a second ago it was simply they were contacting these people. The problem i have with that is, you could have just as easily put, if you were really wanting to do a professional, nonsmear report, is said, Congressperson One or two. Reporter one, reporter two. Because if they did not actually contribute to your report, it is nothing by a driveby. Have you heard from him or anyone else today about this Breaking News . Youll be shocked to hear that i have not. And in that case, its important to remember that we did not subpoena staff Members Phone records. We did not subpoena Congressman Or Congress Peoples Phone numbers. It was just that the wrongdoers, who we did subpoena, were actually in contact with members of Congress And Staff members, unlike we have no evidence that that even exists here. This is, as far as we can tell, and it remains to be seen, but this is a Fishing Expedition where there were actual subpoenas used of members of congress and their Staff Members. To, this, i think that Merrick Garland is in a tough spot here, and im glad that he referred this to the Inspector General. Because we cannot continue going forward with business as trump did, but we also cant go forward with Business As Usual without full transparency and an accounting of what occurred during the trump years. And thats a very difficult balance, but in this case, we need to err on the side of transparency, and ultimately that transparency will yield enough information so that everyone can figure out, and Merrick Garland can figure out, the best way forward, any adjustments to regulations, to norms or to law, but we do need that transparency, and i hope that Inspector General horowitz gives it to us. Daniel goldman, Jeremy Bash, two people i have wanted to speak to since this story broke last night. Thank you so much for joining us today. When we return, there are new arrests in the capitol insurrection investigation, including conspiracy charges against members of the radical gun Rights Movement known as the three percenters. Those arrests signaling a new phase in the prosecution of the January 6th insurrection. That story is next. Plus, americas return to the World Stage as President Biden meets with the g7 leaders, shoring up support ahead of his summit next week with Vladimir Putin. And on a day with so much going on in and around washington, who is better to check in with than our old friend, Chris Matthews. Hell join us later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Connuties after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Its another day. And anything could happen. It could be the day you welcome 1,200 guests and all their devices. 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What happened in d. C. On January 6th was an absolute disgrace. The fact that a chicago Police Officer has been charged in that attack on American Democracy makes my blood boil. Makes me sick to my stomach. And yes, if these allegations are true, it breaks my heart. That was just a short time ago today, the chicago Police Superintendent speaking after learning about the arrest of an officer for his role in the January 6th insurrection. It is just another move by the Justice Department, a wideranging Conspiracy Indictment for six men, including a California Police Chief who started a Farright Group called the american phoenix project. Court documents revealed how they coordinated their travel and planned to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. From the associated press, quote, the night before the capitol breach, one of the defendants sent a photo in a chat that showed gear, including two hatchets, a walkietalkie radio, a stun baton, and a knife, authorities said. In the caption, taylor wrote, quote, now getting ready for tomorrow. Notably, four of the six indicted thursday are allegedly members of the three percenters, an antigovernment extremist movement. Thats a big deal according to The New York Times, who writes this. While the three percenters have been occasionally mentioned in court filings, most accused extremists have come from two other groups, like the oath Keepers Militia and the farright nationalist group, the proud boys. The new charges could suggest that prosecutors have started to pay attention not only to those who directly took part in the Capitol Attack but also to those who Helped Foment the assault. Joining us now is msnbc national Security Analyst clint watts, former fbi special agent, now a distinguished Research Fellow at the foreign policy research institute. And Olivia Troye is back. Shes a former top aide to Vice President mike pence, now the director of the republican accountability project. Clint watts, i start with you. Your reaction to todays news. I dont find it surprising at all, nicole. Ive kind of been waiting for this to happen, which is, theres been significant overlap between president trumps supporters and law enforcement, president trumps supporters and military, weve seen them all show up at the capitol at different points. Were now getting to that point, i think, with the legal process where were starting to see the buildout of conspiracy cases, both in this new one out of chicago and in the one with the three percenters last night. Im curious to see if there will also be parallel conspiracy charges related to the Oath Keepers who were, quite frankly, much more overt and obvious on the day of January 6th, as well as the proud boys. Several of the videos of the proud boys show them with different kinds of gear, smashing in windows. They had shown up prolifically at protests back in december, the month prior. So i would expect that all of these cases now, all of them now moving to the court, youre starting to have different witnesses flip, and youre starting to see the pieces come together. I do wonder if maybe some of the smaller conspiracy cases, just an idea from now coming to court and that there might be bigger ones that are still out there that theyre still trying to put the pieces together on and we could see that in the coming weeks. Olivia, clint says its not a surprising development. Its still shocking, though, i think for most people to see active Police Officers swept up in attack against our democracy, and its still, i think, raises this question that none of us have been able to solve here together. How do you root out extremism with all of our protections for free speech and free assembly . How do you root out extremism before you have an officer on the chicago Police Force showing up as part of a conspiracy to stop the transfer of power . Well, it is shocking. Its disturbing to see whenever law enforcements been involved in this and i think were going to continue to see that there are going to be others and just like were seeing it, were seeing this be a problem within our military ranks i mean, these are individuals who are representative of the overall population, right, and we have a problem right now across the united states where the amount of disinformation that is pervasive out there in society is reaching these individuals, its radicalizing them. But nicole, weve talked about this before. This comes from the very top. It came from the oval office, from Donald Trump, previously in prior months. It came from the rhetoric of people telling their supporters, stop the steal narratives, of election. It came from The Division on the pandemic. All of these issues combined are things that these people have been told and there have been lies that they have been lied to, right . So i think this is all part of the combination, and the culmination of all of these things coming together where all of these groups prey on that and it emboldens them. I want to come back to, again, with you, clint, this sort of ongoing thread. Reuters has some Terrifying Reporting about the threats facing election officials, democratic and republican ones, and i want to read this from the associated press. About this expolice chief, five others charged in capitol riot conspiracy. Quote, during a stop the steal rally held in Huntington Beach on december 12th, he warned that trump must be inaugurated on January 20th and he must be allowed to finish this historic job of cleaning out the corruption in the cesspool known as washington, d. C. The enemies and traitors of america, both foreign and domestic, must be held accountable. And they will. There must be long Prison Terms while execution is the just punishment for the ring leaders of this coup. This language, i imagine, permeates sort of rightwing Echo Chambers and Social Media accounts, and you know, the facts are obviously inverted. The attempted coup was on the other side. But how do you rewire something so detached from reality so that it doesnt represent a threat . Well, i think theres got to be consequences, nicole, and if anything, what we are seeing now is some sort of consequence in the information space. Quite frankly, twitter is a very different universe without the president in it, and you can really feel the Air Kind of come out of some of the violent rhetoric, and Weve Seen Studies of misinformation and disinformation, how its changed since the president has essentially been removed from that ecosystem and from facebook. I think separately, it really comes down to consequences, though, for lawmakers. They are incentivized, to a degree. If you look at whats going on in arizona with the recount, for example. Theres not going to be any overturning of the election, but thats a great financial racket for fundraising and other things like that. And so when you combine that incentive structure, everyone is being pushed to say things that are more extreme or endorse more extreme behavior and the more elected leaders, political leaders endorse more extreme language and rhetoric, the more violence we see. Its not a coincidence that we saw people show up at January 6th. The president was there and he was talking. It was going to be wild. Its not a coincidence that we had a michigan Militia Group show up trying to actually kidnap Governor Whitmer because, well, the president had talked a lot about Governor Whitmer. Its not a surprise that two qanon supporters showed up in philadelphia during the recount there right after the election, because the president was talking about philadelphia. So, Thats Signaling that echo chamber is what drives these people to a specific location. In the coming months and years, i think what were seeing is the localization of this, and thats the case in portland or, excuse me, the case in oregon and the case of several other states where you see mobilizations as well. Well stay on all of them with your help. Clint watts and Olivia Troye, thank you so much for joining us on todays developments. When we return, the return of normalcy playing out on the World Stage as President Biden meets with his g7 counterparts in what is a very sharp contrast to the international relations weve witnessed over the last four years. That storys next. E witnessed o four years that storys next. The sound of A Thousand sighs of relief. And the sound of a company watching out for you. This is the sound of low Cash Mode from pnc bank, giving you multiple options and at least 24 hours to help you avoid an overdraft fee. Because we believe how you handle overdrafts should be in your control, not just your banks. 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Make your Todo List disappear. With help from the brands you trust. Make Pickyeaters Master chefs and make your life simpler with flexible Financing And Installation services. However you make it, make It Work for you. Wayfair, way more than furniture. Wayfair youve got just what i need here it is, the resumption of a diplomatic tradition, after a year off because of the pandemic. G7 leaders in cornwall, england, today, settling for their group photograph. It marks the welcome return of facetoface diplomacy. President biden and the other world leaders, along with their spouses, are just now wrapping up a five course dinner, which followed a brief Photo Op with queen elizabeth. And then theres the announcement earlier this afternoon. The full scope of the G7s Effort to fight the coronavirus pandemic. A donation of A Billion vaccine doses to the rest of the world. Lets bring into our conversation msNbc News chief white House Correspondent Peter alexander live in cornwall, england. This is what g7s used to be about, i remember in 2005, bono was there rallying the g7 allies for support for one africa and for aid to africa. I mean, this does feel like a return not just in style but in Mission And Substance to norms. Reporter yeah, nicole, i think youre exactly right, and whats been striking to me here is how these inperson gatherings, these summits really sort of take on the character, the tone, even, of some of the principals who are involved in them and some of the drama that you saw in these gatherings over the last four years with president trump, this one is sort of defined by the warmth and the friendship that youre witnessing here. Youll remember in 2018, in canada, that sort of standoffish photo between angela merkel, the german chancellor, and Donald Trump with his arms crossed. Instead today, as they gathered for what they describe as the Family Photo along the southwestern coast of england, you saw President Biden and Emmanuel Macron with their arms literally wrapped around one another and thats really what biden, the president is trying to accomplish here, harness the Common Cause of those who have gathered here to erase the memories of president trumps America First Agenda and demonstrate that democracies together can make a difference, certainly in this time of peril that the world has been seeing as it relates to the pandemic and to some of the crises, many of which have been presented by Russias Role in the world right now, all of it as the president prepares for that high Stakes Summit with Vladimir Putin, of course, just a matter of days away. Nicole . Peter alexander, we will continue to call on you. We thank you for staying up late to spend some time with us today. Thank you so much, my friend. When we return from the unprecedented overreach at the trump Justice Department to the return of america on the World Stage as we just saw, there is so much to talk about with our next guest. Our friend, Chris Matthews, will join us after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. In us after a. Dont go anywhere. New projects means new project managers. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. Claim your Seventy Five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed. Com home. I want to see you Stand Up i want to feel you be proud i want to hear your Beating Heart live out loud you can do it on your own Stand Up now be proud, yeah Stand Up now live out loud, oh [sfx psst psst] allergies dont have to be scary. Spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. Psst psst all good i am robert strickler. 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For 20 years, our next guest was a huge and vital and important part of our family here at msnbc, doing something that was easy for him but hard for the rest of us, offering his staple direct, nononsense interviews and always asking all of his guests the hard questions. In his new memoir, this country My Life In Politics and history, Chris Matthews charts his american story through his life and career, talking deeply with abiding faith about where weve been and where he hopes well go. Given the ongoing conversation on this program and over the last two hours about the insurrection at our nations capitol, i want to read this from chriss new book. No one could have truly foreseen how badly the presidency of Donald Trump would end. After losing the 2020 election, trump tried every legal and Pr Trick he could to overturn those results. Well past the ratification of the vote in the Electoral College on december 14th, he continued to insist to his 74. 2 million voters that he had won in a landslide. In those last months of 2020, i thought that was the worst thing he could do as president. When i watched in January 2021 told me i had been wrong. The only thing worse would have been if hed gotten himself reelected. Four more years of this guy might have been a national horror, impossible to fully obliterate. Joining us now is my friend t longtime host of Msnbcs Hardball and the author of this country. Hi there, Chris Matthews. Nicole, its great to be on your very popular show. You are really doing the job here at ms, really, and you know you are. Two hours . Come on. You that is the best. It is. I think you warned me about the Twohour Thing and i should have listened to you. I did. Good for you. By the way, just to follow up on this, the opening, i loved how you opened it, because trump i didnt start off disliking the guy. There was no visceral problems with me and him, i covered him for years when he was clowning around, talking about running for president , but hes up there with Benedict Arnold right now. Hes a traitor to our beliefs. The great thing about our country is the intertwining of elections and freedom. They go together. You dont have freedom without elections, you dont have elections without freedom and hes cut right through that by saying the election didnt happen, almost like a developing country. He lost an election, so he said it was rigged. Come on. Hillary clinton, al gore, john mccain, john kerry, everybody, mitt romney, they know how to lose. It takes guts and patriotism to stand before your voters and say, i did my best. I lost. This other person is president of the united states, lets be loyal to this other person. They all have done it going back to the first person that lost, i guess John Adams and this Guy Cant do it. Hes not man enough to walk before his people and say, i blew it. And my mishandling of corona, all the way, and i got an opponent whos a pretty popular guy, Joe Biden, and he beat me. Im going to live with it because thats the way the american people want their country run, where people walk away from power in the way that George Washington walked away from power. He didnt choose to be a dictator. He could have been a dictator. He went right back to virginia and said, i believe in america. And that means going home when your job is through. Is through. I worked on john mccains Succession Speech to obama. John mccain felt like it was one of the most important speeches of his career. But you just said something, as you always do, that gets to the crux of it. The Concession Speech is about your patriotism. Do you have the conclusion that trump was never patriotic at all . I think it was a work in progress. He got worse as he went on. He certainly did. I mean, he must have noticed that he lost the first race he lost the first race by four million. The second one by seven million. These were not close calls. For him to lie and say that he won is disturbed. You have to wonder what do they think of democracy . What do think they think of their vote . What are they thinking when they say trump got reelected knowing he did not. Knowing he did not. The states he won in 16 he won by squeakers, he lost by squeakers. Of course arizona he lost. Its painfully obvious he lost. And then on the 5th he said i didnt. First of all, he says, he won, what he didnt. And then we had January 6th, which he encouraged to happen. And then twothirds of the republican party, up to 70 actually, said trumps right he won. Then we have the general, michael flynn, who i didnt think was this bad when we first met him saying we should have a military coup. This is a natural progression. It is a prologue to something worse. And if he had gotten rid of it, that would have been something worse. Thank god he has no constitutional power left. He cant do anything except talk. The thing about this country is i care about this country. A third of it believes this trap, this crap, this lie about our history. And its really the first time in our history this happens all the time in Africa And Other Parts of the world that are new to democracy where the winner Arrests Everybody and the loser claims it was a rigged election. But we know our elections are honest in this country. They really are honest and theyre decided by 70,000 votes. These arent squeakers that you can explain by Somebody Cheating here or there. We know who won. Is trump just a liar or is he nuts . You tell me. Maybe hes a mix. But we know he lost. What do you think . What do you think . Liar or nuts . I think hes a guy that doesnt pay his bills. You know, for years we heard he doesnt pay his bills. Thats the debt of saying you lose when you lose. Thats the deal. You shouldnt run for office if you cant walk up to the country, the state or the county or whatever. You shouldnt run for office if you cant accept defeat because its part of the game. It is a game in that sense because every time there is an Election Somebody loses. Maybe a number of the people in the primary lose. You have to go before them and say i lost. I wish i had won, but this other person is now the candidate of our party. And in the general election. Im a romantic about this, politics. I think about Adelie Stevenson who said, im too old to cry, but it hurts too much. Going back to the Pennsylvania Hotel across this Penn Station and standing in front of her people and saying the right thing, that trump is president of the united states. Or Richard Nixon losing a squeaker. It was so close it was painful. And there he had he went and met with jack kennedy. He certified the victory for jack kennedy, and he didnt want to do it. He had his suspicions about what happened in chicago with mayor daley. There was no republican party in 60. Nobody wanted to be poll watchers. Who knows how much ballots he got with the help of a few good friends. We knew what that meant. He didnt want to ruin our country and say lets join the cold war. We knew we needed to be united. Where is that from trump . He says america first. It wasnt america first when he said, i won the election. That was trump first. That should be his battle cry, trump first because its certainly not america first. How do you think you have known and covered President Biden for a long time. I am struck by the discipline that he imparts on the entire White House staff. They are sort of a single mission. Very few gaffes. Nothing that drives the news cycle. What do you make of his presidency at about 60 , 62 so far . Well, a big part of it is organization and discipline, as you say. Reagan was a very popular conservative. He read everything all his life and he wrote very well in those columns he wrote for years all by himself. He was quite a writer. He and Nancy Reagan said, you know what, i need some discipline. I cant keep going in all different directions. Speaking of discipline, baker made sure that reagan stuck to his main challenges, getting the economy going, spending more on defense, cutting back on taxes. He stuck to the main stuff and he kept talking about it. Thats the kind of Discipline Biden is trying with Ron Klain as his Chief Of Staff. I could talk about a lot of things, but i have to focus on one covid relief, so they got that through. We have to get up to 70 coverage. We have to do that or nothing else is going to look good or be good. Secondly, he has to keep the economy going. He has a thread now today, a big story about inflation. Yeah. But he has to deal with the fiscal stuff, the right and left of infrastructure invested. Dont spend it all at once, as my dad used to say to me when he gave me 10. Dont spend it all at once and make sure it is at the right level. We dont want to drive up inflation because inflation will kill any presidency. It killed jimmy carter. It killed lbj in 66, remember, during his midterm. I think he has discipline. I think youre a pro because you worked in the White House. It is making sure you dont get off on tangents and making sure some character down in the bowls of the White House who knows a reporter. They are constantly trying to get somebody. You would have been calling, too. Im always calling, yes. Leslie stall would call me from cbs and say, come on, talk. I would say im not supposed. I was just a speech writer. You were a communications director. Thats even bigger. You have to scale the troops so they dont talk like that. They cant say, i wish we did this and all this could have, would have, should have stuff. He has risen to the occasion of president of the united states. Chief executive of the country is quite a challenge and hes handled it miraculously and hes picked the right people. Nobody has been out there saying things they shouldnt. Great discipline is a big part of the success in this administration, youre right. Chris matthews, i have missed you. I have missed talking to you about everything happening. I hope i can put you on the spot on live tv and ask you to come back and do it again. Your new book is so good. This country is out now. Thank you, my friend. We will be right back. Giving you the options and extra time needed to help you avoid an overdraft fee. Low Cash Mode on virtual wallet from pnc bank. One way were making a difference. Alright, guys, no Insurance Talk on beach day. Im down. Yes, please. [ chuckles ] dont get me wrong, i love my rv, but insuring it is such a hassle. Same with my boat. The insurance bills are through the roof. [ sighs ] be cool. 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