Rampant Voter Fraud in the 2020 election. A lie so hazardous to the democracy that an insurrection at the capitol didnt break the spell. In his oped this Weekend Manchin Spesk cli came out against changes to the filibuster that would have allowed democrats to advance legislation with a simple Majority Vote and manchin didnt just assert that the loyalty to the filibuster is out of a bleefr that it does more good than Harm But Manchin chose the legislation to make official the Declaration Of Independence from the facts around the Gop Assault on Voting Rights at the very moment that President Biden signaled the urgency. From the Washington Post reporting on that it comes as biden intensified his rhetoric against republicanled efforts to restrict Voter Access at The State level. It also serves as a washing that manchin will not bend despite the pressure to drop his demands for bipartisan deals at a time few seem possible. The reality of this very political moment is Something Fox News Chris Wallace dug in on. I think theres a lot of great things, i agree with that piece of legislation and a lot of things that dont pertain to voting. Just to put a button on this you will vote against that bill . I think it is a wrong legislation to unite the country and not supporting that because i think it would divide us further. While Manchin May Knave Gatd the States News the opposed reasons to oppose it is trumpian in the detachment from fact why is the excuse that the legislation is divisive. Mitch mcconnell a man without shame doesnt worry about Divisiveness Killing Legislation for a bipartisan commission to invest gait the deadly insurrection. Where do we go from here . Theres a suggestion of an effort claiming theres little chance that the bill will pass in the current form. Democrats face a clear choice. Wage a symbolic and doomed fight or confront the acute crisis at hand. That aims squarely to ensure that americans can cast votes and that those votes are counted. Thats where we are, folks. Democrats being urged to bring a knife to the Gop Gun fight is where we start today with some of the favorite reporters and friends. Political analyst, former Senator Claire Mccaskill is here and Matthew Dowd is here. And Jake Sherman is back, founder of Punch Bowl News and contributor. Claire, you first. Heres the problem. Joe manchin, we really have two choices here. We can bring a bill to the floor that will not pass. And maybe theres some value in doing that. To put everybody on the record. Then theres another bill that does have bipartisan support why the John Lewis Voting Rights Act which does just deal with the subject of efforts in states to disenfranchise people. It seems to me that would be the logical place to go right now because as to Joe Manchin, look, guys. Heres what we can do with him. Chase him into the ever Loving Arnls of Mitch Mcconnell and have him change parties and then where are we . Or we can go out and vote on the things that matter that are popular, continuing to show Mitch Mcconnell and his lot should not be trusted with the Majority Status in the united States Senate and win some senate races in 2022. Thats how you get rid of the Joe Manchin problem is take him out of the position of power by electing more democrats. Claire, i want to understand if you have inside knowledge. The new york times reporting on The State of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act is if manchin believes killing the bill makes ten republicans Al Truistic to the limited one hes yet to show movement on that front. Do you know that abandoning the voting Rights Legislation and going back to the John Lewis Voting Rights Act would that pass . Would the republicans not deploy the filibuster to block that . It was reupped unanimously by republicans and democrats the last time the provisions in that bill were voted upon by the senate. Admittedly that was i think back in 2006 which was a while ago and a much different republican party. But at a minimum you remove the excuse that people like Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins or others might have that this bill has things in it not having to do with voting. Jerry meandering and does things its not clear its constitutional to mandate how states handle president ial elections. In Article Ii thats not clear. So i do think there is some value in getting something across the Finish Line to signal to the Supreme Court and to The States that congress is not asleep on the job right now but were not getting that bill through with Joe Manchin the way he is and i dont want him to become a republican because then Mitch Mcconnell is in charge again. I think therein lies the conundrum, matt dowd. I want to just focus on the words that he used because i think claires right. I think that the White House is dealing with Joe Manchin is different from the White House in which i served dealing with John Mccain because John Mccain was a conservative republican. He just had his own views and priorities but no chance to switch parties and become democrat. This is a very perilous moment but his reasons, the rational and i dont know if this is from the hereto. I think maybe the belief in the filibuster is a real belief. I have heard that from others. I think he may speak for others there but wrapping this up in divisiveness feels like a contradiction wrapped in a conundrum. What do you think . I completely agree with you. I think its a conundrum in the bestCase Scenario. I agree with claire. At this moment in time the democratic party is only vehicle to save the republic and so anything to do to enhance the democratic party including trying to keep Joe Manchin in the party but heres my problem with him. First, what hes saying he is defending for bipartisanship is this legislation is supported by a bipartisan group of voters so for the country writ large, the country supports this. Independents support this and democrats and republicans. It is his definition of what he thinks bipartisanship is which is a certain number of senators coming over defined by bipartisanship. Two is he is unwilling to fix a problem thats pushed in a partisan way so every one of The State legislative actions done to restrict Voting Rights is done in a partisan way and wants a bipartisan solution to find by republican senators going along with to fix a partisan problem that exists in the country. Three, i would just remind Senator Manchin that the 15th Amendment to the united States Constitution which protected Voting Rights for everyone which established the opportunity for everyone to have the right to vote but passed in a partisan way. Every single democrat in the 1860s after The Civil War voted against the 15th Amendment. They voted all against it. So the idea that we need republicans on board in order to make sure that isnt divisive when the country supports it at large means you keep a principled piece of legislation to fix a huge problem that exists in america because youve defeigned it in such a way that somebody in the office next to you isnt for it seems ludicrous. He needs to stay in the democratic party and better for 50 votes and not do anything to disrupt that problem but call out Joe Man chin and he is keeping a principled piece of legislation in order to keep a Senate Process in place. Jake sherman, i want to show you President Bidens public comments on this issue in the hours leading up to this oped and this rebuke of this legislation. This sacred right is under assault like i have never seen. Assault on the democracy. What im worried about is how unamerican this whole initiative is. Its sick. Its sick. The republican voters i know find this despicable. Republican voters. This makes jim Crow Look like jim eagle. This is gigantic. What theyre trying to do. It cannot be sustained and will do everything in my power with my friends In The House and the senate to keep that from becoming the law. Jake, this is i think the most public and seismic rebuke of this very popular Incumbent President from Joe Manchin. Was it intended as such . I dont know if its intended as suchl. Can i weigh in on the previous conversation . Two things to say. I dont think i agree with almost Everything Senator Mccaskill said. I dont think theres any Risk Close to zero risk that Joe Manchin will become a republican. I think he has been asked i think we are getting into a habit as a political class or reporters and people who observe politics. We need to take him at his word. He is not going to become a republican. He said that time and time again and wont blow up the filibuster no matter how much people yell at him or say democracy is at risk. He is not interested in it. Within the confines the Senate Leadership has to figure out a path forward. I think that furthermore i think that we are generally obfuscating the reality and not convinced that hr 1 to pass if the filibuster was blown up. I think that is the jurys out on that. Number two, Manchin Isnt the only problem here. Blowing up the filibuster is not one or two votes away from being done. Its just not. It is a fantasy. There are many people who tell us all the time that they are not interested in blowing up the filibuster. I understand its easy to rag on manchin. Because he has an incredible amount of influence unlike anybody we have seen before and this is 100 right but What Manchin back to the oped. What he wrote he is saying day in and day out to us here at Capitol Hill and wasnt new to us. So you know, i think what Senator Mccaskill is right that democrats are at a crossroads in that they either have to we say you have to cater to the weakest link and he is the weakest link. Not in the same mold as the rest of the democratic party on the issues so they have to figure out what he will vote for and go there. It is great for the Home State politics quite frankly if its not great for everybody else to see hr 1 try to get passed and they have to figure out what he is willing to vote for now and put that on the floor. Its not fair. Maybe not what polls say that the rest of america wants but thats what Joe Manchin wants and until you have 56, 57, 58 seats you need to cater to the 1 person who wont do what the rest of the party will do and thats the senate that im sure Senator Mccaskill knows well. You have been invoked. Yeah. Jakes right. This is nothing new out of Yeoman Chin and lapping up not only how it plays to a state that elected Donald Trump by, i dont know, 25, 30 points. You know . Not only plays to the people at home he represents but plays to what Joe Manchin likes. He loves this, loves being in the limelight like this with the pressure on him. Hes not going to change his mind and he is the Heat Shield for other members of the senate that also are reluctant to blow up the protections the minority has from stopping bad stuff the other party wants. We stopped it to stop bad stuffer that trump wanted. A lot of stuff why when we were in the minority and he was president with control of congress. So there is more than just Joe Manchin here so what they ought to do is focus on the voting Rights Legislation that is possible that will be most effective at stopping The States from taking power away from elected officials, from not only how votes are cast but counted. There is some authority of congress in the constitution to do that. They should focus on getting that done and if they fall short on that then thats what really putting pressure on Joe Manchin and others. Murkowski is a cosponsor of it. I guess the nasty violent Cash Crash here is that democracy is at risk and burned down. 22 states have passed Voter Suppression laws based on the Bs Lie that there was fraud when there wasnt any. And thats happening with a lot more Urgency And Focus and quite frankly skill than anything the democrats are doing. So i understand what i dont understand about the process and the players. But i wonder if you feel democrats understand whats happening to the country. I dont know. I think many democrats and many people understand whats going on. Look whats happened here in texas and what will happen in the special session going through this. What we have in the system including the filibuster is a tyranny of a minority and our system now protects the tyranny of the minority. It is on everything. Cant get common Sense Gun Reform through because of the filibuster and the tyranny of the minority. We cant protect the Voting Rights. And in individual states theres a tyranny of the minority. I think they understand it but i think we have to stop covering in My View Covering Washington and seeing washington as if Somebody Cant actually change whats going on in washington. I get Joe Manchin and i know him and known him for years. But i think we can call out his hypocrisy in this moment. You cant say this is who i am and then claim im doing this for the sake of the country. He is not. He is doing this for West Virginia or his status in West Virginia in this. Does he believe in the ideas. Of course. But we have to i think many of us have to point out by your belief in those ideas dont claim youre protecting democracy in the midst of this because you are not. I think thats the moment we are in so many fixes have to be in this but individuals matter. Joe manchin if he stood up and i agree that theres other people that he is protecting that wouldnt go for the filibuster but i know for sure a lot of those senators if manchin said i believed in it but it doesnt work anymore because its protecting a tyranny of minority those other senators would go along with it knox. Theres no way. Youd have 50 votes in the flgs. No way. Theres not a chance. Jake and then claire. Theres not a Snowballs Chance in hell thats true. Its not true. I can tell you from spending fiver days a week up here theres no chance that if Joe Manchin came out by the way he wont come out against the filibuster and i wont fly back to my office just because i want to and theres democratic senators that dont want to do this and who are like just if Joe Manchin folded which is again not going to happen ever those senators would still find a way to not be not want the blow up the filibuster. By the way no one was complaining when democrats filibustered the border wall, democrats filibustered obamacare. 60 votes is protected democrats for the entirety of the Trump Administration. Im not talking about policy. Im purely talking about tactics. Republicans had the majority In The House and healthier majority than democrats have now and the filibuster helped so i think that i think Senator Mccaskill agrees with me here there are probably 40 votes maybe to blow up the filibuster. I would say probably less than that. And Joe Manchin is right now at front because it helps his Home State politics but you hear people across the spectrum who are uncomfortable with this idea. The loudest voices are not but a lot of people who dont want to blow up the filibuster and the conversation not you but the broad conversation doesnt line up to the reporting that we have in the capitol from not only me but the entirety of the Press Corp. That the filibuster is nowhere close to being gone. Nowhere. And claire will get the last word. Hang on. Hang on. If that is the case then we have basically if that is the case then we have said that tyranny of the minority exists forever. If thats the case. It is the case. I dont know what it says but that is absolutely senator, you talk to these people as much as i do. Then were not a democracy. Well we are not a democracy. Let me just debate this point. Claire. We can debate whether or not the existence of the filibuster is corrosive to our democracy. I agree with matt on that but i disagree with him and agree with jake and i want to be diplomatic here. Joe manchin is not a signal for what other people are going to vote in the senate. Joe manchin changing the vote on anything doesnt necessarily bring one other vote with it. Great. This is not who Joe Manchin is in the democratic caucus. He is not the guy that people follow in battle. He is a guy that they kind of like, okay, joes being joe but it is not like when he changes his mind the earth is going to move. That is not the case. There will be those i think there might be 50 votes to reform the filibuster without Joe Manchin. Maybe not do away with it but reform it. I think that step will come first before we completely blow it up. Let me just jump in here and, jake, is there nothing i used to ask this question about republicans if there wasnt a Red Line, wasnt grab them in the bleep, wasnt good people on both sides of Kkk Rally and a dead Heather And Wasnt questions of collusion and no does Joe Manchin have a Red Line . Did not just killing and voting against the bipartisan commission but whipping votes against it. Does he have a Red Line for the process . I can only tell what he says publicly and tells other people which is just a basic fact. He is not going to blow up the filibuster. He believes it protects democrats and republicans. By the way, similar argument that a lot of people made over the years and you could argue it is worse. What he says publicly is there is no situation in which he will blow up the filibuster. Now people have talked about the talking filibuster. Making people stay on the floor. At The End of that guess what you need, 60 votes. Unless you get rid of 60 votes altogether and there are not enough votes to do in the senate so no. There is no Red Line in other words. He suggested theres no situation in which Hell Blow up the filibuster and when people ask him and we ask him all the time he says stop asking me. I have told my answer A Million times. What dont you understand . I think its clear where he is. You could go down the list and Senator Mccaskill probably knows more than that. Theres some that have unease with the filibuster and for manchin i have not personally heard a Red Line, no. Amazing state of affairs. Matt, jake, Thank You so much. Claire isnt going anywhere. The number three democrat In The House has some thoughts for Joe Manchin. Well talk to Congressman Clyburn about his decision, how it reshapes the fight to protect Voting Rights and potentially the votes of millions of soon to be disenfranchised voters. Vice president Kamala Harris on the first international visit. 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Little brother. Maybe this is The End. But if we go out. We go out together. With the biden administrations voting Rights Agenda at best on Life Support and as the democratic party considers next steps in light of Joe Manchins opposition to that sweeping voting Rights Bill that would have undermined every Voter Suppression laws with the opposition showing no sign of fading. According to the Washington Post at least 14 states have enacted 22 laws with new hurdles to vote and 61 bills making the way through legislatures in 18 states and makes this federal push for legislation more urgent. Eliminating the filibuster is Xs Prating for drts. Heres jones on msnbc earlier today. The for the people act is an importance to saving the democracy. Also that the filibuster itself was accidental in the origin and it has been used to quite racist antidemocratic effect throughout the nations history. I have to think and believe when he is educated own these things he will understand well never get ten republicans to vote for the for the people act or John Lewis Voting rights they couldnt vote for a bipartisan commission. Joining us is majority whip Congressman Clyburn of south carolina. Claire is still here. I will be really brief because i need you to fill me up with wisdom here but the republicans, i spent time in that party. This is a game, an urgent Issue And Wont stop until theres laws on the books that if the election of 2020 had taken place with those laws on the place might have been able to do what theyre trying to do, overthrow the will of the voters. It hurts minority voters and young voters. How do you fight back if the democrats in washington dont see it that way . Thank you very much for having me. It may disproportionately hurt black people but it will hurt this entire country. The democracy that we all esteem to adhere to. At least we say we do. You are talking about destroying the democratic principles upon which this country is based. It is not always lived up to those and voting is one of those instances where it did not. I was around in 1965 passing the voting Rights Act and i know very well. I remember when my parents were registered to vote and we all know that there are jurisdictions in this country thats working very hard in order to subvert the will of the people. It may disproportionately hurt me and my children and my Grandchildren Today but it will hurt this entire country going forward. To give up on the democracy as was said earlier, thats where we are. Then so may it be. But dont think that i and my family and others who look like us will be the only ones hurt. The underpinnings of this democracy will have been frayed. Theyre not looking for a democrat when they were talking about hanging pence. He was the Vice President and a republican. So just because it hurts one Group Today doesnt mean it will come back it is cancerous. If you dont get cancer out of the system the system is eaten up and the system dies. Thats what we are playing with here. If you have in the republican party at this moment a party that is not a Governing Partner what value is a tradition not a law like the filibuster . The filibuster has very little value and should not have any value when it comes to constitutional rights. Voting rights or basically constitutional rights. The filibuster, even a tradition, is to extend debate on legislation question. Thats one thing. For the people act, sure. If you want to vote guest it then vote against it if you vote to keep me or anybody else from voting for it thats a problem. Thats what Joe Manchin is doing here. Right. Theres one vote against the for the people act and thats fine. But what he is doing now is aiding and abetting a process that keeps democratic principles from taking place. A few senators from georgia would like to vote on the for the people act but what he is doing is preventing them from voting on the act. And that to me is a worst possible way to use the filibuster. I never asked them to get rid of the filibuster. Have you made an exception with the budget. We have what we call a reconciliation. I said thats not an app to be applied to the constitutional rights than it is to the budget. So lets not allow the filibuster to be used to deny basic constitutional rights to anybody. If you want to have a or where it should be, thats an Issue Nothing to do with anybodys constitutional rights. We ought not pass the filibuster deniring constitutional rights. Thats the 1957 Strom Thurmond filibuster. 25 hours of filibuster over the 1957 civil Rights Act. Look at it now. Those filibusters broke a record. Dont have a record anymore. People can go downtown and sit in the Spa And Phone in the filibuster and keep us from voting. Congressman, Vice President Kamala Harris was deputized last the middle of last week to take this on. 22 bills have been signed into law. It started with georgia but now 22 laws that have been passed. Can you just speak to the urgency of the federal legislation . I think the constitution is very clear. Article 1 section 4 of the constitution making it clear that congress has a right to determine the rules concerning federal elections. So this whole notion that the congress powerless is not true. When i was 18 years old i could not vote. You know . I had to wait until i was 21. So later on we dropped it to 18. 18yearolds can vote today because congress said so. The states didnt do it. When congress did it The States decided to come along. We have got to do the same thing here. We have got to decide whether or not members of congress are going to stand up. Constitutional principles. Before a democracy or will not allow that someone said earlier the tyranny of the minority to run the country and when you do that then you are headed downhill fast. And thats what we are on to if were not careful. When i used to teach history i said two dates. When i was studsdying history. 76 a. D. Thats the year the Roman Empire fell and passed the whole world into darkness. And it did not come to light again until 1066 when we opened it up again and if were not careful this the greatest democracy on the face of the earth will go the way of the Roman Empire. The history is very clear. I would say this is not a democratic problem why this is not a problem for democrats. This is a problem for every person in these united states of america and we better wake up or we can going to find ourselves going the way of the Roman Empire and many others since. I have been groping for the appropriate historical parallel. I Thank You very mump fur providing it. And i hope you get in front of democratic and republican lawmakers and prevail with your wisdom and urgency. Thank you very much for spending time with us, congressman jim clyburn. Very important to hear from you today. Still to come for us, Vice President Kamala Harris giving her Foreign Policy credentials a Boost Today in guatemala right now and will head to mexico tonight. President biden also heading out on his first international trip this week. Whats at stake for both of them As The World Turns the page from the last four years. That story is next. Oh dont burn down the duplex. Terminix. I want to emphasize that the goal of our work is to help guatemalans find help at home. At the same time i want to be clear to folks in this region who are thinking about making that dangerous trek to the united states mexico border. Do not come. We as one of our priorities will discourage illegal migration. And i believe if you come to our border you will be turned back. That was Vice President Kamala Harris in Guatemala Today on the first overseas trip as Vice President meeting with the guatemalan president , tackling migration and corruption, outlining the strategy there to address the root causes, feed crises that are leading people to flee from the Central American homes to come to the u. S. Tonight she arrives in mexico and then wednesday President Biden levers for a first overseas trip for meetings with World Leaders which he says in the Washington Post is about america rallying the worlds democracies. All of it should be a major week and a half of the efforts to restore american leadership on the World Stage and repair and rebuild relationships strained by public setbacks over the last four year just joining us conversation is jackie alamani. Tell me about this first overseas trip really placing Vice President harris in the middle of the most vexing policy challenges that the last five american president s havent been able to make much progress on. Thank you very much for having me. This is Vice President Kamala Harris on the first foreign trip in Guatemala And Mexico late irtonight adds you noted. We are likely to see and already seeing a shift in tone than we saw in four years of trump and less drama, less bizarre and quite frankly offensive headlines in the Trump Administration and still policy issues and differences that are vexing the relationships with some allies and northern triangle in particular. Harris like many tasked faces the problem to ensure that the 4 Billion in aid that the biden administration allocated to the northern triangle in central america over the course of four years actually gets in the hands of those who need it most if the country. We saw harris roll out a number of initiatives that the administration hopes can direct the money in the right Direction But Administration sources told me this morning that The New York Times article outlining some of the flaws of using foreign aid to achieve american interests overseas actually caused quite a stir in the agencies that are intent on doing just that. In this piece by The Times the u. S. Agency for international development would not provide actually a specific number and estimate how much Taxpayer Money spent on projects done by American Con Tracks to central america 2016 to 2020 swallowed by administrative cost just the Harris Team has said that they will be focused on making sure the money gets to the right place and a problem thats vexed the President Biden when he was Vice President under President Obama. Claire, we have been on the air together for sort of what we alluded to diplomatic gaffes at best, international crises at worse. Thinking helsinki. Theres a discipline and as jackies reporting out always going to be tensions and things that get hashed out but there is a precision to the foreign trips thats just such a striking return to normal. Very normal what she was doing today. It felt normal and a week of symbolism as was just mentioned but the problems that the Vice President has been given are really hard ones and as was just referenced getting this aid to the woman who told one of our Reporters Today that she would send her children alone on a dangerous journey to get to america and when asked why she said, well, my Neighbors Child just died of hunger. That is what these mothers are facing in guatemala. Their children are starving. So the idea that corruption is getting in the middle of this, the idea that the money that is being allocated is being swallowed up by greed is outrageous and thats where we really need to be paying attention. Its not sexy. It is hard, contracting oversight, money to not for profits to distribute Food And Aid and economic opportunity. Thats really what has to happen in these countries if were going to be effective in convincing mothers that they have no choice but to separate from their children in ways i find unimaginable. That is all that you need to understand about this. That things are so horrible, mothers put the babies in vans and buses knowing that likely will never see them again. Jackie, Thank You so much for joining us. Clair is sticking around. Controversial opinion and ruling from a judge in california comparing military style guns to swiss army knives. Well look at the fight ahead and speak to someone who tragically knows all too well that an ar15 is nothing like a pocket knife. Ahhh get out of here mouse. Ahhh dont flex your pecs. Terminix. Hearing is important to living life to the fullest. Thats why inside every miracleear store, youll find better cheers with your favorite fans. 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Avoid grapefruit during treatment. Kisqali is not approved for use with tamoxifen. Its our time. For more time. We asked for kisqali. Ask your doctor about living longer with kisqali. California Governor Gavin newsoms calling a judges ruling overturning his states 32yearlong assault Weapons Ban a disgusting slap in the face to those who have lost Loved Ones to Gun Violence. The judge for the u. S. District court for the southern district of california ruled restricting Assault Weapons is unconstitutional and that firearms are, quote, fairly, ordinary, popular modern rifles. It was one of the more eyepopping parts of this judges opinion. He wrote, like the swiss Army Knife, the popular Ar15 Rifle is a perfect combination of Home Defense Weapon and homeland defense equipment. He went on to say, they arent as deadly as weve been led to believe, writing this. One is to be forgiven if one is persuaded by News Media and others that the nation is awash with murderous Ar15 Rifles. The facts do not support this hyperbole. Facts matter. But there is no question that Gun Violence and ar15s in particular are an epidemic in this country. The deadliest mass shootings in recent years have been because of the Assault Weapon Style machinery, claiming the lives of hundreds. Our neighbors, moms, dads and kids. Joining us now, fred guttenberg. His daughter was killed in the Parkland School Shooting in 2018. Claire mccaskill is with us as well. Fred, i follow you on twitter. Every time i read your tweets, i have the same thought. How do you do is this . How do you find the strength to speak out against insane rulings like this and the fight that Governor Newsom said is starting to have a sameness and a numbness that we cannot let set in. Well, good afternoon to both of you. And Thank You. You know what . Heres how. Tomorrow evening, i should be at a graduation with all the other seniors and my daughter should be getting her diploma and she wont be. Well be there, instead, there to collect an empty box, a shadow box, because my daughter was murdered in school, and you know what, nicole . As long as this insanity continues, as long as theres the opportunity and the chance for us to be better than this and for us to do more than this and for us to start saving lives and to call out the b. S. Of this judge, because the only thing he said is facts that was honest and accurate is facts matter. As long as i have a chance to be a part of saving lives in this country, i cant stop. I should have been doing this before it was my kid, and i wasnt. Ill never, ever get over that guilt, but i Wont Stop now. Fred, first of all, Thank You. And i can get choked up thinking about you and other parents in this high School Graduation that is empty in so many ways. Talk about the Percentage Talk about facts. Talk about the percentage of americans that want to do away with weapons that make us Stand Out from the rest of the world in terms of their ability to kill so many Human Beings in the flash of an eye. Talk about the popular support to do away with this weapon that this judge is ignoring at this point. No, listen, im so glad you asked that question. Listen, the past two elections, okay, in 2018, we elected a democratic house. In 2020, we elected President Biden and Vice President harris and a democratic senate. And its in large part on this issue. There is not another issue in this country that you will see 90 support on doing something about Gun Violence the way we see it here. There is not another more bipartisan issue in this country that americans are demanding change on. You know, listen and this judge, i think, actually for me, laid out the framework why Voting Matters and why change has to happen, because he used certain phrases. This was written by the nra, okay . The idea that in the first sentence, he compared it to the swiss Army Knife, okay, if a swiss Army Knife were used at my daughters school, shed be alive today. She was on the third floor. I have the photos and video of what happened in that school. A swiss Army Knife would not have killed her. Thats number one. And the use of the word, common. That is the Gun Industry Word that they want everybody to buy into, and i want to remind everyone, jamie was born in 2003. In 2004, the assault Weapons Ban ended. These were not common weapons. We went through years following that where they said, its going to be for hunting. Its for sport. But the industry produced them at rates far higher than what was required and pumped and flooded our streets with these weapons so they can now say its common and now that theyre calling it common, their goal is to get the Supreme Court to say, we should make them permanent. Hell no. Too many people die, and enough is enough. Fred, your tweet this morning is about Fathers Day, and claire talked about getting choked up. Im going to read it. You tweeted this. Its almost Fathers Day. Rather than celebrating, ill spend Fathers Day working to prevent other dads from losing children to Gun Violence. I need your help sending a message to d. C. Lets make dads for Gun Safety the biggest hashtag of all time with A Million retweets. Lets do this. How can we help you . You know what . I want that hashtag to blow up. I believe in democracy. Ive been listening to your program for the past hour about everything with manchin and you know what . In spite of him, i believe in our democracy, and i believe we can send messages to those we elect to be better and to do more. And i ask for A Million imprints of the hashtag dads for Gun Safety. Lets make it 10 million. Lets show washington, d. C. , that its not just moms. Its not just kids. Its also dads. Lets show them. Because you know what . Moms and kids have been amazing fighting for Gun Safety. Dads have not stepped up as much. Lets show them that dads can be they can be Gun Owners and for Gun Safety. Thats all im asking for. And lets force the senate to pass the legislation that the house has already prepared for them and voted on, and lets give our president the chance to vote on it i mean, to sign it. Dadsforgunsafety. Lets send a message to washington, d. C. Were still in this covid place. We cant have a march on washington, but we can send a message. Lets do this. We can all reach to our phones. Fred, well keep an eye on that for you, and claire, Thank You for spending some time with us. Thank you both for rounding out this hour and talking to us. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Tarts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. This is sam with usaa. Do you see the Tow Truck . Yes, Thank You, that was fast. Sgt. Houston never expected this to happen. Or that her Grandpas Dog tags would be left behind. But that one call got her a tow and rental. Paid her claim. And we even pulled a few strings. Making it easy to make things right thats what were made for. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Get a quote today. The world were inheriting, its in crisis. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. We got here after years of bad policies, climate deniers, polluters, lobbyists. But now. I do solemnly swear. Finally a president who gets it. Real leadership in congress. Its our moment to tackle Climate Change and invest in cleanenergy jobs. This is about our future because if we dont stand up, if they dont act, if we let this moment pass us by, we will never get it back. Mr. Secretary, one of obviously, there is there are allegations where we believe that not every vote or fair vote and legal vote was counted, and thats at odds with the representation from the secretary of states office. What im hopeful for is, is there some way that we can we can find some kind of agreement to look at this a little bit more fully . Hi again, everyone. Its 5 00 in the east. On the call where the former president pressured Georgias Secretary of state, brad raffensperger, to find the exact amount of votes that would have given him a vote in that state, trumps Chief Of Staff, mark meadows, was right alongside next to him, propagating the Big Lie, feeding into the falsehood that the election had been stolen. Stunning, brandnew reporting in The New York Times shows just how wild and just how deep meadows efforts went to challenge the Election Results while trump was still in office. In violation of long standing guidelines that establish distance between the white House And D. O. J. , The Times reports this. In five emails sent during the last week of december and early january, meadows asked jeffrey rosen, then the acting a. G. , to examine debunked claims of Election Fraud in New Mexico and an array of baseless conspiracies that held that mr. Trump has been the actual victor that included a Fantastical Theory that people in italy had used Military Technology and satellites to remotely tamper with Voting Machines in the u. S. And switch votes from mr. Trump to votes for joseph biden. The times notes this. None of the emails show mr. Rosen greeting to open the investigation, suggested by meadowed, and former officials and people close to him said that he did not do so. An email to another Justice Department Official indicated that mr. Rosen has refused to broker a meeting between the fbi and a man who had posted videos online promoting the italy Conspiracy Theory known as, of course, italygate. A president who had just lost reelection desperate to cling to power. In the wake of his traditionally obedient Attorney General, bill barr, publicly shooting down his false theory of widespread Voter Fraud, The Times reports that trump wasted no time in pressuring barrs replacement. It reports that the now expresident s pushing of rosen began the day after he was announced to be taking on the role of acting Attorney General. Now, eight months after the election, those beliefs among trump and his allies remain and we see them manifesting in the baseless audit still under way in georgia and arizona, the efforts by State Republicans to start one in pennsylvania, and the mountain of measures across 48 states being enacted or considered that would make it harder to cast a ballot. But the future of our democracy in question, democrats in congress are trying to get to the bottom of what exactly the trump White House did in its attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. The emails between meadows and rosen were revealed as part of an ongoing investigation. The committees chairman, senator dick durbin, said about the emails, what my office found in our investigation is a five Alarm Fire for democracy, underscoring the depths of the White Houses efforts to influence the electoral vote certification. I will demand all evidence of trumps efforts to weaponize d. O. J. And his election subversion scheme. A look at the Lengths Trump and his Chief Of Staff went in pursuit of the Big Lie is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Katie benner, whose byline is on that new york times reporting is here. Also joining us, matt miller, former Chief Spokesperson for the Justice Department and Frank Figliuzzi is here, former Assistant Director for Counterintelligence And Host of the bureau podcast. All three, msnbc contributors. Katie, theres not a lot that i can read about the Trump Era that leaves me shocked and horrified, but your reporting left me shocked and horrified. Tell us more. Well, as you said, the reporting, the emails were revealed as part of a Senate Investigation trying to get to the bottom of what was going on within the White House and how the White House was trying to pressure the justice did not, trying to coopt the Justice Department and get it to legitimize Election Fraud theories. This is one startling example that the committees investigators remember, there are three at Homeland Security Excuse me, house oversight, Senate Judiciary and then of course the inspector general. They have obtained these types of communications. Very eyebrowraising so you can only imagine how this has incentivized investigators to continue to dig because clearly what weve seen is that the White House was determined to bring the Justice Department into this plan to try to legitimize claims that many, many people, including republican officials in other states, had said was untrue, that trump had indeed lost and there was nothing that could happen to overturn that result. Katie benner, when i read your reporting about then acting a. G. Rosen, i thought about the comey memos. I thought about Don Mcgahn and his note taker, annie dickerson. Did mr. Rosen memorialize what mr. Meadows was asking him to do. Weve been told that the Justice Department is being cooperative in terms of handing over records, but in terms of the emails, for example, between meadows and Rosen And Rosen and his deputy, rich donahue, theyre very terse. Theres not a lot of detail. Rosen does not give anything away. He doesnt say these things are insane or ill get on it. Hes trying to be as neutral as possible. All of the investigators are trying right now to interview mr. Rosen and get more information out of him and this is where the current Justice Department under Merrick Garland becomes very, very important. It is up to them to determine how much cooperation Jeff Rosen can give with the investigators because hes going to be talking about Justice Department equities. Hes going to be talking about things that pertain possibly to the January 6th investigations and hes going to be talking about things possibly that pertain to executive privilege. So, its going to be up to Merrick Garland and his teams to determine what mr. Rosen can do to help investigators. Well, katie, just listening to you lay that out, i have to ask you, i mean, what Merrick Garland has done so far is to protect a deliberative part of a Barr Memo that came to be right around The End of the mueller probe, and you and your colleague, charlie savage, have been reporting all weekend about the biden Justice Department under Merrick Garland and lisa monaco, continuing to pursue the emails and Phone Records of your four colleagues. I mean, what is your sense of what the garland Justice Department might do . My sense that the garland Justice Department so far, in the few months that he has been the Attorney General, is that he really believes deeply in the institution of the Justice Department and he believes deeply in protecting the institution and upholding all norms, even if people do not like the results. So for example, protecting the Barr Memo. He feels its deliberative process. His Justice Department feels its something that you would not reveal in any other administration. Hes not going to reveal it, even if people make the argument that it pertains to extraordinary circumstances, and i think he will continue to do that. You know, matt miller, i want to pull you in on this. It is a constant and traditional tension in normal times, but i wonder if you think these are those, normal times. No. Theyre not normal times. Look, it is a very tough position theyre in. It is, in many ways, analogous to what we faced in 2009 when President Obama was elected and we took over the Justice Department and were faced with all these demands to release information about sort of the worst pieces of the Bush Administration and the war or terror, the Torture Program and other Executive Branch activities to which the department of justice had Knowledge And Information and in some cases were defending in court. And i know what theyre trying to do. The balance theyre trying to strike is, on one hand, the demands from congress and the demands from public for transparency, radical transparency in some cases, their own revulsion at what went on at the Justice Department and what went on in the prior administration, and this Thing Katie was speaking to, which is their need to protect the department of justices equities, and i know what theyre thinking its not just the departments longterm institutional interests, but theyre thinking any power that we give to congress is a power that congress holds on to forever, so if Kevin Mccarthy is the speaker, its a power hes going to use against us in a year and a half to try to demand things out of the Justice Department that we dont want to give him and that we shouldnt have to give him. That all said, i know that we struggled very hard with these decisions and we didnt always get them right but i think in a time like this, leaning towards transparency is by far the most important thing. Weve talked about accountability a lot on this show and the thing that we come back to is a lot of what happened in the Trump Administration was corrupt and crooked and, you know, awful beyond imagination but not criminal. So, when there is no criminal accountability, transparency is the best thing we can ask for so the american people can judge for themselves and we can name and shame everyone that was involved and try to keep them from getting jobs in government again, trying to keep them from going to corporate america. Its crucial that we have a public accounting. Well, and matt, as youre talking, im thinking of what a bipartisan commission with joint Subpoena Power among democrats and republicans might be able to do with reporting like Katie Benner has reported on. If a bipartisan commission looking into everything that happened, i mean, just listening to that call that i played at the top of the show, that was the scandal on january 3rd. That tape was released on january 3rd, three days before the insurrection. Mark meadows conduct, Donald Trumps harassing of raffensperger, all those events led up to the insurrection because they were pressuring local election officials. It was happening not just in georgia. And i wonder if you think that well ever have that full accounting, matt, without a commission. Look, we certainly can. Bipartisan commission would have Subpoena Power, but dont forget, congress has Subpoena Power too and congress now has Subpoena Power that they can use on an administration that is not completely hostile to congressional oversight. It gets back to again what the department of justice and the Executive Branch is willing to turn over about the activities of the previous administration so it is disappointing that we dont have a bipartisan commission, but all in all, i think what a bipartisan commission would lend is that sort of bipartisan credibility at The End of the day when they have a final report to produce to the american public. Congress has its own Subpoena Power and congress can send letters to the Executive Branch if theyre not getting cooperation. They can send subpoenas. But i dont think they ought to have to send subpoenas. I think for most of these activities, for example, with the former deputy Attorney General, former acting Attorney General, rosens testimony, the department of justice ought to just let him come up and talk to congress about what he saw. These are extraordinary times, and the most important thing right now is to create a record so we can try to prevent it from happening again, and you dont need just a commission for that. Speaking of congress, liz cheney, fig, was on the Axe Files podcast. Listen to what she had to say. Well talk about it on the other side. And i think what Donald Trump did is the most dangerous thing, the most egregious violation of an oath of office of any president in our history. When he says that our system doesnt work, that our democratic process, when he suggests that its, you know, incapable of conveying the will of the people, you know, that somehow its failed, those are the same things that the chinese government says about us, and its very dangerous and damaging, and its not true. And i guess, frank, i ask about her comments in the context of the fact that its still happening. I mean, these arent reflections on something that happened between november and January 6th. Right now, The State of pennsylvania is contemplating a Maricopa Style Faux audit, the Maricopa One is still ongoing, and you and i have have talked for weeks now about how that might excite and incentivize extremism. Let me read you a statement from pennsylvanias lieutenant governor, john fedderman, in response to trump now saying there should be another audit in pennsylvania. He said, Joe Biden won pennsylvania by more than 80,000 votes and the only Voter Fraud we found in pennsylvania in 2020 was the handful of dead relatives who all voted for Donald Trump. This sort of forceful laying out the full facts sort of hews most closely to reality, that there was fraud, it happened on the other side of the ledger. What do you make of this sort of Mushroom Cloud of Phobeny Audits . Were watching a slowmoving train wreck, and it needs to get derailed quickly or its going to crash. And the train thats crashing is essentially our form of democracy. The insurrections not over in a very real sense. Weve got a former president , a significant percentage of at least one party believes he is still the president. He is undermining democracy, our system, and again, from my national security lens, i cannot help but think that in bureaucratic offices throughout moscow and beijing, they are sitting back and smiling at a former u. S. President who is doing their work for them. Never before has it been this easy for an adversary to actually impact negatively the united states and our democracy because they have the ultimate insider, now outsider, in the form of Donald Trump. So, frank, what is sort of the counter its so many fronts, right . Its the propaganda furthered by the expresident. Its the Echo Chamber that sor of legitimatizes it from Fox News to the wackier, all the way out to the rightwing media and its the silence and complicit of all the republicans. How do you as youre saying, the cheering of it, i think, Vladimir Putin was weighing in on behalf of the insurrectionists, saying theyre being punished, persecuted. How do you dismantle all that if it does, as you say, threaten our very democracy . This is a whole society, whole of Government Approach thats needed here. I think, you know, as weve just now discussed on your show, were just beginning to learn how deep this went, how tenacious the efforts were at every Cabinet Level Area but particularly d. O. J. To just do the work of trump and twist the truth, and i think as the truth comes out, were going to see the role increasingly of Career Professionals and likely that they kept going down the hallway, going to the Bosss Office and saying, you cant do this. We cant do this. And so, its okay that we have an institutionalist as an Attorney General because hes trying to preserve what we need preserved. I get that. I get that theres a fine line. But we need to preserve what weve got so far. So, Big Tech has got to play a role in this. Legislators, educators, Law Enforcement, intelligence community, weve got to all be rowing in the same direction and nicole, these days i am not optimistic that we can row in the same direction. Katie benner, what is your sense of how closely the Justice Department is keeping an eye on these ballots being repurposed now and not really counted but reexamined, theyre hunting for bamboo in arizona, they want to commence a similar effort in pennsylvania. Is the just Department View these as sort of out of their purview, or are they watching them . Do you have any reporting on what they think of them . What we know from the Justice Department is its going to take Voting Rights and the State Voting Legislation thats being proposed, the audits, theyre going to take it very seriously. Attorney general Merrick Garland has said as much and if you look at the newly confirmed head of the civil Rights Division, that is a rather big indicator. Kristen clarke is known for being a staunch defender of Voting Rights and for making her career on it. She has worked in a variety of organizations and at the Justice Department, previously in the civil Rights Division to fight to expand Voting Rights so this is going to be one of her main mandates. As we know, the Supreme Court has made decisions that have curbed the Justice Departments ability to forcefully protect Voting Rights, but that doesnt mean that there arent still tools, and clarke has said in her confirmation hearing, shes determined to use them to their very fullest extent to combat and to take a critical look at what is happening right now across the country. And matt miller, we cover them here all the time, the 22 Voter Suppression laws that have already been signed into the law, in the words of republicans, predicated on the Big Lie and i think even in texas, some of the republicans have acknowledged that they so eroded confidence in elections that these measures were necessary. There was no Voter Fraud. They made they created the deficit in confidence in our elections by echoing Donald Trumps Big Lie. I wonder what the sort of legal prescription is for something thats rooted in a lie and echoed by propaganda and now has already been legislated in 22 instances. You know, its very difficult at times. A legal remedy is going to be the answer at times. The Justice Department will be able to go into court. But as katie mentioned, their ability to do so has been greatly weakened by Supreme Court rulings in the past. Ultimately, i think its going to have to be an electoral answer. Outside of the legal remedy, the other option would have been for federal legislation and Joe Manchin made clear over the weekend thats not going to happen any time in the next two years with a 50 50 democratic senate majority, so the tools of the Justice Department has, you know, arent particularly great anymore at preventing they can prevent sort of direct voter intimidation. They can prevent direct discrimination. But things like bills that are passing in georgia and that are that proponents have attempted to pass in texas to overturn elections after the fact if they dont like the outcome, Justice Department doesnt have great tools to deal with that. Were going to need federal legislation and to do that, democrats are just going to have to win more senate elections. Its a sad thing to say but its as plain and simple as that. It sure is. Katie benner, matt miller, Thank You so much for starting us off. Katie benner, Thank You for joining us on your extraordinary reporting. Frank is sticking around a little longer. When we return, well speak with a reporter who interviewed an Iraq War Veteran who says he has no regrets over his role in the Capitol Insurrection, even as republicans and the rightwing media continue to pretend the insurrection never happened. Plus, ahead of President Bidens first overseas trip this weekend, stern warnings for russian president Vladimir Putin over interfering in our elections and harboring hackers bent on causing us harm. And the republican partys lurch to the far, fringy right since the days of the george h. W. Bush administration. Well be joined by the former president s confidante and longtime Chief Of Staff later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Eadline White House continues after a quick break. Bundle, youll save money and get roundtheclock protection. Sounds great. Sure does. Shouldnt something, you know, wacky be happening right now . We thought people could use a break. Weve all been through a lot this year. That makes sense. Yeah. So. Nows not a good time 3 5ths of nsync. Are you sure . You have us booked all day. Read the room, guys. Yeah. Right . Trelegy for copd. Birds flyin high, you know how i feel. Breeze drifting on by you know how i feel. Its a new dawn. If youve been taking copd sitting down, its time to make a stand. Start a new day with trelegy. No oncedaily Copd Medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. It also helps prevent future flareups. Trelegy wont replace a Rescue Inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a Heart Condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, Mouth Or Tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or Eye Pain occur. Take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. Ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy. And save at trelegy. Com. Brother against brother. Awell, this Shouldout Obe interesting. Gy. [ grunting ] ive spent my entire life in your shadow. And now, you spend the rest of yours livin in mine. I aint going anywhere little brother. Prosecutors in the now sprawling federal investigation into the 1 6 Capitol Insurrection said in a Court Filing today, they expect to charge 100 more people in connection to the January 6th attack. Already 490 suspects have been charged. Among them is landon copeland. Hes an Iraq War Veteran from utah who appeared in court today. He allegedly grabbed a Police Riot Shield and toppled an officer on 1 6. Hes facing multiple charges, including Assault And Obstruction of an official proceeding. The department of justice is seeking to detain copeland pending trial. Our next guest spoke to the suspect, who says he has no regrets and continues to doubt the results of the 2020 election. Joining our conversation is investigative reporter for nbc for washington, scott mcfarland. He interviewed copeland from jail on saturday. Frank figliuzzi is still here. So, i cant say it on familyfriendly tv what he said, but tell me about the suspect. He seems to not have any remorse. Yeah, landon copelands an Iraq War Veteran, nicole. He was one of the higherprofile defendants in January 6th in part because hes accused of assaulting police, one of the more serious charges but also because he had an outburst at a hearing last month. He screamed vulgarities at the judge, called the judge a robot, told the judge she cant get to him unless he wants to be gotten to. He called this weekend, overnight. Got to tell you, that was a surprise, because his case is only in its beginning stages. He hasnt even yet entered a not guilty plea but he called to talk about the case. He said he has no regrets, doesnt think he committed a crime but he acknowledges he was there January 6th. He acknowledges he grabbed that Police Riot Shield and toppled an officer and when i pressed him on it, he says that Donald Trump was a great president and he still has questions, nicole, about the 2020 election. Does he deny that he committed crimes or he just doesnt want to be held accountable for them . He denies that he committed crimes and does so after acknowledging he grabbed a Police Riot Shield and struck police. I asked him, you know you cant hit police, and he says, the police, in his mind, were trying to direct people, including him, towards the Chemical Spray and he thought that was a threat. Police were trying to remove the crowd January 6th and none of that came as a surprise though maybe it was a surprise to landon copeland. You know, frank, i dont know what the right words are. You know, horror, despair, you know, hearing about sort of an unrepentant insurrectionist. I want to play an ad, though, that gets me to my next point about alternate realities. This ad was nobody on Fox News wanted you to see this. Watch. Im proud of the officers i worked with on January 6th. They fought extremely hard. Our worst nightmare really come true, an attack on american democracy. Right here in the nations capital. I experienced the most brutal, savage Handtohand Combat of my entire life. I received chemical burns to my face that still have not healed to this day. I just remember people still Swinging Metal poles at us, and they were pushing and shoving. They were spraying us with, you know, bear Mace And Pepper spray. They were all shouting at us, calling us traitors. Its been very difficult, seeing elected officials and other Individuals Whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. As an american, and as an army veteran, its sad to see us attacked by our fellow citizens. So, frank, one of the dangers of the republican efforts to erase our memories of 1 6 is that it becomes part of the rightwing Disinformation Chamber that that didnt exist. I mean, that wasnt an ad. Those were clips on Tv Put into an ad and then banned from Fox News. Where does the zealousness to keep the facts and the reality out of that sort of Disinformation Chamber come from . Nicole, im really glad you put these two stories together. The story of the, really, mindgoggling interview that this guy gave voluntarily, im sure, if he has a lawyer, the lawyers Flipping Out right now. And then the story of Fox News declining this ad. They go together because because we you and i have talked repeatedly about one of the antidotes to violent extremism and violent ideology being repeated exposure to the truth, right . So, when you hear this guy in his interview, you see someone that exhibits the signs that we looked for in Law Enforcement intelligence, which is dedication to the cause and the degree of dedication and the lack of remorse, even when confronted with arrest and his freedom being deprived, right . This is someone who potentially could be willing to die for his deluded cause. All right, now, how do we get people like that out of that violent ideology . Exposure to the truth. Well, on Fox News, at least, you cant even pay them to air the truth. This becomes extremely difficult. If the antidote to Extremist Ideology is exposure to the truth and theres an entire Cable Network that wont let you hear and see the truth, even from active Duty Police officers who were there, weve got a problem, and the that speaks really badly about the prognosis of our nation in terms of not developing a permanent insurgency and getting people out of the Rabbit Holes that theyre in. I mean, frank, i also think at a human level, what a disgrace that one of the two parties is incapable of honoring those Men And Women. Among them are veterans. I mean, how are we at a place and i understand the counterextremism is a different piece of the problem, but youve got in Kevin Mccarthy and Mitch Mcconnell two men who proudly whip votes against a bipartisan commission to investigate what happened to those Men And Women on that tape. How do you how do you address sort of the other end of that Food Chain . So, youre right. We have now, apparently, we will never have a bipartisan commission to look to the truth. This means that masterfully, what that party has done is theyve pushed this over into a completely partisan inquiry if we have one at all so many in our population will say, these people are just doing politics. I cant believe anything. Im not going to tune into the commission hearings. Thats a problem. And then, you know, the other thing thats really happened thats scary here is theyre turning against police officers. So, the party that said, we back the blue, we have cops for trump rallies, is refusing to air police testimony. And what does this guy say . The police were a threat. Everything is on its head. How you counter that is an incredibly difficult task. The party essentially is collapsing on itself but becoming increasingly a national Security Threat as it happens. Thats how i see it. I see it as a Security Threat. Scott, whats going to happen to your Phone Pal . Well, he was in court this morning. They ordered a Competency Exam and his case is on hold in the Competency Exam is done. He remains locked up in the meantime. But to franks point, theres an unfortunate reality for those who want this story to go away. Its going nowhere. All these filings and all of these 490 cases are clogging up the d. C. Federal court. The soonest well get a trial, likely february 2022. This storys going to be around for a while, whether people like that or not. And youll be on it and were grateful to have you as part of our conversation. Scott mcfarlane, Frank Figliuzzi, Thank You so much. When we return, ahead of President Bidens first trip overseas as president , big questions about how forcefully he should confront Vladimir Putin after a rash of cyberattacks launched by russian criminals. That story is next. That story is next ok everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. Great tasting ensure with 9 grams of protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients to support immune health. [sfx kids laughing] [sfx bikes passing] [sfx fire truck siren] onstar, we see them. Okay. Mother and child in vehicle. Mother is unable to exit the vehicle. Injuries are unknown. Thank you, onstar. My son, is he okay . Your sons fine. Thank you. There was something in the road. Its okay. Youre safe now. 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A Weeks Worth of food and water, radio, flashlight, batteries and first Aid Kit are a good start to learn more, visit safetyactioncenter. Pge. Com one of the reasons that the president will be meeting with President Putin in a weeks time is not in spite of these aggressions, these attacks. Its because of them, to tell him directly and clearly what he can expect from the united states if aggressive, reckless actions toward us continue. Were prepared either way. Secretary of state Tony Blinken there with a warning for Vladimir Putin with President Bidens first bilateral meeting with the russian president now just nine days away. President biden is also renewing his own stern tone after the most recent cyberattacks by groups with suspected links to russia have interrupted u. S. Gas supplies and the worlds largest meatpacker. The president writing this in the Washington Post. In my Phone Calls with President Putin, i have been clear and direct. The u. S. Does not seek conflict. At the same time, i have also imposed meaningful consequences for behaviors that violate u. S. Sovereignty, including interference in our democratic elections. And President Putin knows that i will not hesitate to respond to future harmful activities. When we meet, i will again underscore the commitment of the u. S. , europe, and likeminded democracies to stand up for Human Rights and dignity. Lets bring into our conversation a real expert, former u. S. Ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, an nbc national affairs international analyst. I follow you on twitter, i read all this news, and it feels like Vladimir Putin and his allies in this part of the world are very much on the offense and the u. S. , with our Meat Supply and our Gas Supply being taken offline, is on the defense. Is that a fair way to look at this relationship . Yeah, i think thats an excellent way to frame it, which is, hes taking all the initiatives and this domain and other domains too, building up troops on the border of ukraine and other things and were always responding. Its always a titfortat response. And so far, the biden administration has chosen to respond in what they think is proportionate ways, but it hasnt been a consequential way enough to stop the aggressive behavior from Vladimir Putin so far. So, how do you change that . Well, i do think its right to meet with him and give him a stern warning and say very explicitly what you plan to do, if this aggression continues. But then i think you have to have your own offensive strategy and its got to be multifaceted. Its got to be a policy of containment in europe, for instance, building up nato. Its got to be a policy of shoring up ukraine, making ukraine successful. We have to go on the offense in supporting democracy and democratic ideas in russia and in the region. In other words, its a comprehensive strategy, not just a responsive strategy every time we are attacked or one of our allies are attacked. What is the russian game when Lavrov And Putin are up in their public spaces defending the insurrectionists, saying theyre being persecuted . Well, you know, ive been in a lot of meetings with Vladimir Putin. Ive met him first three decades ago. He loves the Whataboutism Game, and so does lavrov. Very cynically. And you know, i hope President Bidens prepared for it, especially when the cameras are on. Because i wouldnt be surprised if putin played it again. So, he wants to very cynically say, youre concerned about mr. Navalny . Well, were concerned about the democratic activists on January 6th. In other words, making false equivalencies in order to get us into this Whataboutism Game and i think the president needs to be very, very stern and rebuff him if he goes in that direction, especially in public. What is your sort of degree of optimism versus, you know, i dont know what where you are on the emotional spectrum, but what is sort of the best Case Scenario . What do you think President Biden is sort of capable of and willing to do in terms of shifting this dynamic from one of being and really not even im not trying to make this his fault. But we are defenseless in this cyber space if our Meat Supply and Gasoline Supply can be taken off like that. There was a hack ongoing in the midst of the truncated transition. This has been a space where even sort of a casual consumer of the news can see that russia is on the march, they are getting more audacious and more capable. What is the satisfactory outcome for this bilat . Well, first, engage when you can. Contain when you must. So, i hope, for instance, that biden and President Putin agree to start strategic stability talks so we can have a Followon Treaty to the new Start Treaty that they just extended for five more years but will run out soon. Thats a narrow engagement agenda, and then the rest has to be to contain. By the way, we did this during the cold war. You can read george schultzs memoirs. You can do both at the same time. What i hope doesnt happen is that President Biden keeps talking about, he wants a stable and predictable relationship with putin. Thats not going to happen. Now, i hope hes saying that so that the rest of the world can see that its putin thats not making it stable and they can move to this other part, but then they have to be, in my opinion, much more aggressive and much more comprehensive in pushing back, deterring, containing putins russia. So, indicting those people as criminals, sanctioning them so that you cant pay them ransomware. If youre on a sanctions list, then you cant pay those people. Then youre violating american law. And just cyber resilience in general. You know, its just its a mess. You know, everybody has to take care of themselves. This needs to be a national Security Issue for the entire country. And i think theyre going get there. Theyre just not quite there yet. Let me ask you about a frame that Ben Rhodes and other Foreign Policy folks have offered up on this show and ask you what you think. That for, you know, in america, we have such a short horizon. Our News Cycles are 30 seconds these days, as long as it takes to watch a Tiktok Video, but in the world, it isnt like that. So for them to have, perhaps, a fouryear respite from Donald Trump but then the threat that perhaps hell return, that maybe our allies and adversaries have internalized that threat better than we have. Do you think that plays into how foreign countries, friends and adversaries, deal with this White House . Well, most certainly for Vladimir Putin, and thanks, nicole, for giving us more time than just a Tiktok Video now. Yes. Well, i would say there are two pieces of it. Number one, you know, remember, putins about to meet his fifth president. This is the first time that President Biden meets with President Putin. I was actually at the last meeting. That was ten years ago. They had different jobs. Number two, yes, President Putin hopes that Donald Trump will be reelected. Part of what hes saying on January 6th, think about it, in the polarization between autocrats and democrats inside our country, President Putin is firmly aligning himself with those autocratic thinkers. And this fight between democracies and autocracies that the president rightly talks about, its not just between countries, its within countries, including our own. And number three, you know, americans, i live here in the silicon valley, we have a lot engineers. We want to solve problems. Putin doesnt want to solve problems. Hes happy to play a long game, happy for his soldiers to be in Georgia And Ukraine and moldova for years and years, and that, i think, sometimes gives him an advantage in these negotiations. Were trying to solve the problem. Hes perfectly happy to keep the problems on the table. Your number two is the thing that i havent figured out how to say as eloquently as you just did, but this idea of the world over, countries are having battles between democracies and autocracies within them is something im going to put you on the spot and ask you to come back and elaborate on. Ambassador michael mcfaul, Thank You for spending time with us today. When we return, perhaps the clearest moment yet that things at the White House are beginning to return to normal. That storys next. Urn to normal. Th sattorys next. As your business changes, the united states postal service is changing with it. With ecommerce that runs at the speed of now. 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The White House Correspondents Association also announced Press Capacity limits on the White House grounds, both indoor and outdoor, are lifted as of today. Obviously, all the relevant cdc guidelines are still in effect, particularly among the stillunvaccinated, those who arent yet two weeks past their second dose of a vaccine will be tested daily and theyll still need to wear masks as well, but you take the wins where you can get them and this is certainly a healthy and positive step forward, one worth pointing out and being thankful for. When we return, what would former president george h. W. Bush think of Todays Gop . His longtime Chief Of Staff joins us after a quick break. S f joins us after a quick break [sfx thunder rumbles] [sfx rainstorm] comfort in the extreme. The Lincoln Family of luxury suvs. Hearing is important to living life to the fullest. Thats why inside every miracleear store, youll find better laughs at family barbecues. 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And when someone has a long record, an ugly record of racism and of bigotry, that record simply cannot be a long, long time ago. That was president george sadly, thats from a long time ago. That was president george h. W. Bush describing David Duke in his campaign for louisiana governor. That clip is 30 years old. At the time, it was extraordinary because he was the president. But now it seems unthinkable that someone would do that, right . That was the more principled era before 2016, before todays modern republican party. Joining us is someone who has watched the evolution alongside us, jean becker, longtime member of the staff for george h. W. Bush, and the author of the man i knew. Jean, thats when you and i got to know each other. I want to ask you something. I want to ask you about his transfer of power when he left. He didnt just peacefully transfer power. He bestowed legitimacy and warmth and friendship, and became such good friends with his successor, that we got to know him as well. Talk about why that was so important to him. Great to see you, thanks for having me on. One of the reasons i wrote the book, quite frankly, is because President Bush 41 really left us a blueprint on how to live a life well lived. He lived life with principle, honor, and truth, and with joy. And you can begin my journey with him really began july 20th, 1993, when he left the White House. I became his Chief Of Staff about a year later. He left the White House very sad and dejected, and had to lick his wounds for a few months. Within a couple of years, he had become best friends with the man who defeated him. One of the best examples in the book is his friendship with bill clinton. Mrs. Bush called them the odd couple. Do you think that relationship was a model for what would become president george w. Bushs relationship with the obamas . Just talk about that. Well, i think that President Bush 41 and President Bush 43 both have that unique quality, it shouldnt be unique, we should all have it. But they find the best in everybody. They can put aside their differences they have with someone, political differences, whatever they might be. And find common ground and find a way to work for the common good. Thats certainly what President Bush 41 and president clinton did, President Bush 43 does a lot with the former President S. Hes become huge friends with michelle obama, which is such a great and funny story. But, you know, we have to learn how to agree to disagree. And we need to learn to find common Ground And Work for the better good of the country. And no one was better at that than my boss. He lost the election in 1992, but when he died, almost exactly 26 years later, he was one of the most revered men in america, and in the world. And theres a reason for that. What do you think the conversation would be between, i know he consumed a lot of news. What would he think of what is in the news right now, what has happened to the republican party . What would he say to you . Im going to so disappoint you, im sorry. I made the decision when i started this Book Tour last week, im not going to put words into President Bushs mouth. I can guess what i think he might say. But i dont think thats fair to him. Because hes not here to speak for himself. What i would like to ask your viewers and your fans, read the book. I think you will come to our own conclusions, im going to trick you into reading the book. Then you can answer that question yourself. But i dont want to put words in his mouth. As a former spokesperson, thats the wisest and best thing to do in all instances. But it is a wonderful, wonderful read. It brings him back for a little bit. And really, his spirit of Bipartisanship And Reverence for our countrys leaders is something were all hungry for. Thank you for spending time with us, your book is out right now. Well be right back. Ng expedia , save 20 or more on thousands of hotels. Expedia. It matters who you travel with. Welcome to allstate, are you down, dddown, dddown, dddown where were driving down the cost of insurance. Are you down, down ddown, down . Are you drivers who switched saved over 700. Allstate. Here, better protection costs a whole lot less. Youre in good hands. Click or call for a lower rate today. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes or offices if youre back in one. The beat with Ari Melber starts out right now. Hi, ari. Shout out to the offices. Thank you, niccole. Shoutout to everyone, i want to tell you that our top Story Tonight is something that may be familiar. Its the intensifying new york criminal probe into the trump organization. Its back in the news, because the man at the center of it all, longtime Trump Org Cfo allen weisselberg, this morning, he ducked any questions about the case. I