Believe is evidence of a crime or crimes at his home or office. Giuliani has been playing this very different than most defendants, very different than what you would advise clients. Hes been doing it the giuliani way, talking. Most lawyers would tell you dont go out and talk in public and dont do talk radio. Thats what hes doing. Doing the kind of things that got his client impeached and got his own offices raided by the feds. They seized all my electronics except the hunter biden hard drive. Which they didnt want any part of. I guess there are too many you know, i can see the problem. There are too many crimes on it for them. The fbi is only about 14,000 agents. Now, other than mr. Giulianis word, we cant say whether or not he truly has Hunter Bidens hard drives. The scope of those warrants for for things pertaining to giuliani. We dont believe they would have had the clearance to get other things. Also new today, the Justice Department formally asking for a judge to order an independent lawyer to review the evidence that investigators confiscated in the raid. The prosecutors specifically citing the precedent because its donald trump there is a lot of bad looking precedent here, the fact that his former chief lawyer, Michael Cohen, was also raided and they used this type of situation to assure that all evidence is treated fairly. The letter highlights the quote unusually sensitive privilege issues that the warrants may implicate. If you follow this story or watch the beat, you know we covered this from the out set. There are rights and privileges associated. Now, donald trump is entitled to those legal privileges. The doj saying they will absolutely seek to respect that, to have an outside lawyer do it so there is not even a hint or whiff of Potential Impropriety and anything that is truly privileged to the client, donald trump, will not be used against mr. Giuliani. Meanwhile, another development, our own Msnbc Andrea Mitchell went to ukraine, speaking with a former adviser to the president there saying that giuliani wanted multiple investigation into the bidens. He was so about a Smear Campaign on then a candidate biden, joe biden. So basically first request was multiple investigations. So he wanted the situation with the exprosecutor investigated. And he was especially interested in getting ukraine to make a Public Statement and possibly back it up this crazy allegation that it was ukraine, not russia, that mettled in 2016. Smear campaigns. Legal Heat Ratcheting up on giuliani. Donald trump reportedly wouldnt pay ghoul yan i in. Wont pay his lawyers. And the inner circle here reportedly getting worried. Joining me now is former sdny prosecutor and eugene robinson. What do you see legally in this increased pressure and the development that the doj has a plan to go forward with reviewing this material . Sure. Well, were getting deeper and deeper into uncharted territory here. There is just not a lot of precedent. As we discussed, there are very few raids on Attorneys Offices in the first instance. One of a former attorney of a former president. Here you have the former United States attorney for the very office that is leading the charge here. Last time i was i checked, his portrait still hangs on the floor of the Executive Suit at the u. S. Attorneys office. So this is all a little trippy. The u. S. Attorneys office is running all the cases, going through all the traps, covering all their bases. And they, i think for the first time, are actually going out of their way and proactively asking the judge to appoint a special master. Typically, theyre the ones in a defensive posture saying, no, no, this is not required. We can put a filter team on this. Were more than capable of doing it. Here theyre actually going through the extra step of saying, because of the implications, because of the politics, frankly, we want not only this to be fair, of course they want that, but they want also its important also to prevent the appearance of fairness. So they are finding themselves in this interesting posture of requiring a special monitor, and well see what giuliani has to say in response. It sounds like you are saying this extra layer of review is almost the type of thing thats more in the interest of mr. Giuliani and his client, donald trump. It is not for the doj. Theyre doing it just to be extra fair, so to speak. I think thats exactly right. I think they had public reports that giuliani may be with mr. Dershowitz or others were going to file their own petition or some action. And, so, i think they anticipated that. So they said were going to put in these extra safe guards. We will request the appointment of a special master. Whereas, in the past they always objected to the appointment of a special master, including in the Michael Cohen case. Really interesting context you are giving us. While there is similarities here, even the recent history is different in the situation of donald trump having a lot of lawyers who seem to get into a lot of trouble. Thats putting it conservatively. Gene, take a listen to how giuliani is trying to play this out. Hes doing it his way. Call it a sinatra style, if you want, and doing it on fox. Look at him on Hannity Playing that hunter biden card. The hard drive was given to me because the guy didnt trust anybody else. He didnt trust the fbi because they had it for almost a year and did nothing with it. They want to destroy my credibility because i have that entire hard drive. I have the whole thing. I put it out to the new york post. And since then they have been persecuting me. They have done everything they can to destroy every Business Relationship i have. Gene, in washington they say sometimes where you sit determines where you stand. And in america today, what you read and where you get your information may determine where you stand because people get different versions of this online or wherever. There is a lot of talk about hunter biden. If there is a legal probe there, we will cover wherever that goes. What do you think is happening with giuliani trying to make it look like hes on offense when legally hes clearly on defense . Well, i have no idea. The four words that keep coming to my mind are four seasons total landscaping. I keep thinks of this as a bizarre and selfdestructive way for giuliani to proceed because, as you noted in your introduction, any lawyer would advise his client in giulianis situation to shut up, to stop talking, to, you know, leave the talking to his attorney. Rudy refuses to do that. And not only that, but, you know, the hunter biden line, you know, it plays well, im sure on fox news and some other channels and some websites. But it doesnt play well, i dont think, with the Southern District of new york, and thats what he has to worry about. He has to worry about the prosecutors. He himself is in legal jeopardy. I dont see how, you know, with talking and talking and talking about extraneous things in this manner helps his cause one bit. Yeah. I think thats fair. I mean, he has the right to criticize the process or the prosecutors. Ill defend his right to do that. This is a free society. If you want to go at the government, you can play it that way. But i think gene is making a sound point legally and politically, which is really this is a sideshow to who controls this fate. We mentioned Michael Cohen. You mentioned the president there. We just spoke with him in a somewhat newsworthy interview given that hes got more insight in this than a lot of folks including a jail stint after being Donald Trumps lawyer. Is donald trump scared right now . Yes, i think hes scared. Donald trump doesnt care about Rudy Giuliani. Donald trump didnt care about Rudy Giuliani until rudy was actually doing free legal work for him. So there is no loyalty between the two. Rudy will do what rudy needs to do in order to protect himself. Your view of that unique aspect of this and whether there is something here that Rudy Giuliani may know or have done in concert with donald trump that somehow could be out of the per view of what would traditionally be confidential or would pose a risk to donald trump, or is it possible that mr. Cohen is overstating the case . Look, Michael Cohen knows what hes talking about. Hes obviously uniquely positioned. But as a general matter, there is a tremendous amount of pressure that is on any single target or subject or defendant who is in the cross hairs of the u. S. Attorneys office. Thats just a fact. They can put a world of pain on any single target. And here they have access, not just to all the Electronic Devices that were just seized, but no doubt mountains of other evidence. So, you know, Michael Cohen famously said he would take a bullet for mr. Trump and we all know how that ended up. So anyone can say i certainly am not in a position to do a psychological profile of Rudy Giuliani. But it is absolutely a fact. And Michael Cohen is correct that there is going to be a lot of pressure for him to flip, as they say. And there is no doubt will with some interest with respect to whether its mr. Trump. Yeah, thats a big one. Or anyone in that entourage. So i think the pressure will be on for sure. Yeah. Very interesting was is someone like you who was in sdny used to always say, stay tuned. We will certainly do that in this case and anything else going through that powerful office. I want to thank both of you for kicking us off. Coming up after 30 seconds, you may know him as the grim reaper. Mitch mcconnell admits now it wasnt about bipartisanship. His focus is stopping biden. Were back in just 30 seconds. Yum yum yum clap, clap yum yum clap yum yum life comes at you fast. And in washington, d. C. , sometimes it comes at you as a remay of what you already knew. Take Mitch Mcconnell. He was first shading biden about bipartisanship. Hes admitting thats all false. Ill let him explain. 100 of my focus is on stopping this new administration. 100 of my focus is on standing up to this administration. This is Mitch Mcconnells version of keeping it 100. If a democrat is in office, 100 of his focus is stopping the administration, which means by definition that no other percent is left. We can do the math, for working with the administration or finding a compromise on jobs or covid relief or anything else. You heard him say it. And it means that the last few weeks when he claimed he was concerned about meeting with the president at the white house or hammering out deals, that was false. And it also echoes exactly what mcconnell said about obama. Our top political priority over the next two years should be to deny president obama a second term. Mitch being mitch. This is who he is, and you can say there is a type of candor here. Although its candor mixed with recent desemiabling and lying with those fake complaints about bipartisanship. Thats important not only for anyone that wants to understand the big issues ahead of us in this Infrastructure Bill at a tough and influential time for washington. It also means that the people around the president and many of them already know this, dont get me wrong, people dealing with Congress Must understand you cannot take as a factual matter Mitch Mcconnell seriously when he says, as he did before and you may hear it again down the road that joe biden just isnt being by part son. Our president will not secure a Lasting Legacy through go it alone radicalism. What they get done through partisan brute force will be fragile. A president who talked about cutting deals, bringing people together and Building Bridges. But its mcconnell who is going it alone, who is against Building Bridges either real or metaphorical in political bipartisanship. You can look at where americans are. There are a majority of americans which includes independents and americans who back biden on covid, on infrastructure on on some of the help for families planned in these new bills. Mcconnell doesnt want to work with biden on any of this. By his own account, he is ultimately interested in one thing. 100 of my focus is on stopping this new administration. We are joined now by someone who has advised his way through these very issues in the obamabiden administration. Cornell belcher, how are you . Ill well. How are you, brother . Im good. Thanks for asking. This one matters not because its surprising. I wouldnt call it a scandal for anyone who follows politics. People know about Mitch Mcconnell. But it certainly would seem to inform how everyone from the Biden White House to democrats in congress to wall street to anyone talking anywhere about doing anything in the next three years how seriously they take Mitch Mcconnell because hes revealed his hand is the same as the way he approached your old boss president obama. And doesnt that mean that spending time with him is wasting your own time . Yeah. Ari, it is deja vu all over again. And the question is can they get away with it, right . Im glad that you all showed the polling data out there around what hes, in fact, talking about stopping, right . Hes talking about hes trying to stop, you know, upgrading and repairing americas infrastructure and repairing bridges and updating our energy system. Hes against, you know, accessing broadband into rural areas. So the question becomes, and this is what democrats failed to do in 2009 2010 for the midterms, is they failed to make republicans and Mitch Mcconnell pay the price for blocking things that the fast majority of americans want. So the question really becomes, you know, Mitch Mcconnell is going to be Mitch Mcconnell. But can house and Senate Democrats and challengers to these tough swing districts, can they put forward the case that these things that you overwhelmingly American People want, you know your brings are in need of repair, you know your infrastructure needs repairing. Were trying to do that and the other party is simply trying to block it. By the way, ari, theyre not even the Conservative Party anymore. One thing i will disagree with biden on this. Biden talks about theyre in a minirepublican revolution. Ari, the revolution is over. Authoritarians have one and theyre about to March Liz Cheney Out of leadership because shes a conservative and not a tribalist, right . I think Mitch Mcconnell thinks this, that he can rerun the 2010 strategy all over again and it will work for him. The question is can democrats stop him . Yeah. And it reminds me of that old song, Stop In The Name Of Mitch before you break my Infrastructure Bill. Im sure you remember that one. No, i dont think i do, actually, ari. I dont remember that one at all. Yeah. Its classic. I mean, i changed some of the words but only to make it apply. And by that i mean, sir, how do you with good conscious with the stakes that are on the table right now not look at, if youre in the white house, reforming the veto that Mitch Mcconnell is exercising because he said, well, im going to burn the place down if you mess with these obstruction tactics, filibuster, et cetera. Now hes saying im going to use 100 of my energy, power and focus to stop you. Nobody knows who will control any of the levers of the congress, the house and senate in the future or after the midterms or any other time. Do you think at this point that goes to the larger conversation democrats are having about using the power they have when dealt with someone who admits he will do 100 of what he can to stop them . I think that the democrats have to make the case that we are in extraordinary times. And extraordinary times call for extraordinary actions. And that when you see one of the Political Parties not actually acting like a governing political party, theyre not actually trying to govern in a time of crisis, i think democrats have to make the case that these are extraordinary times, so we will do extraordinary things. But they have to explain it to the American People why, in fact, were going to blow up. Because i think we have to blow up the filibuster, right . And get permission from the American People to blow up the filibuster because these are extraordinary times and the other party is simply not going along and trying to govern. I think if democrats do that, they have a chance here. But they have to do it. Understood. Stay with me, cornell. We have mentioned youre often the adviser to these big principles. We also want to bring a principal in, a democrat from washington. How are you . Im great. Ari, cornell, great to see you. Great to have you both together. What is your thought on all the above and whether Mitch Mcconnell, whether you want to call it being true to his own form or doubling down or super sizing his turtle vibes towards biden, is there something that should be done about this now at a time when there is a lot of stuff to be done . Well, first of all, this is Mitch Mcconnell. If we had any doubt, this is who he is today. It is who he will with in the future. It is all about blocking. Dont give me this by partsan stuff he keeps putting out there. Democrats need to learn from what happened in 2009. I was not here in congress back then. I was on the outside and saying, come on, democrats. Just move. Pause the only thing this guy has is to stop progress for the American People. So we need to be moving forward as quickly as possible because he has now laid all of the cards on the table as far as what the republican agenda is. Secondly, on the filibuster, we are this week doing a National Week of action on the filibuster, eliminating or reforming the filibuster, which is designed to have members of congress, and we have over 20 events across the country, to educate our constituents on what is the filibuster. It is not the mr. Smith goes to washington and stays up all night and does something to go up against the establishment. This is about the tyranny of the minority, something that the founders never wanted, were very clear that they never wanted. They always wanted the majority to rule, not the super majority. They did not want the minority to be able to stop things, and this is a relic of the jim crow era. This is what southern segregation has used to stop civil rights. This is the same tool that Mitch Mcconnell wants to use to control the senate. So tomorrow well be having a National Progressive down hall with senator padilla, corey bush, not just progressive but people across the caucus who know that the urgency that cornell talked about is what is at stake here. There is an urgency around policing and passing the George Floyd Justice in policing act. There is an urgency around Voting Rights, an urgency around immigration reform, around the 15 minimum walk, around democracy reform in hr1. These are all bills that have already passed the house. We need to pass them in the senate and have the president sign them because at the end of the day the American People are hurting. We have been through a dark, miserable year, year and a half, four years if you think about the trump administration. And we need to have help to people and its significant that the majority of americans support the american jobs and families plan just as they did the rescue plan. And congresswoman, do you think people know what the roadblock is . I think people dont understand, nor do they care, about the procedural pieces of why something cant get done. So that is why Mitch Mcconnell during the obama years picked up on that, because he knew that if you go back as democrats that got everyone to come out and get everyone to vote for you and give you a House Majority and a white house that if you went back and said, well, im really sorry, but there is this dead guy, bird and a rule and the parliamentarian has to rule on whether or not we can pass something and the bottom line is we dont have anything to deliver, nobody is really going to care much about that. So Mitch Mcconnell understood that, and he understands that today. And it is why i think we can educate people about it through the issues that they care about and then show that the process is just a relic of jim crow era and that democrats have the power to reform it just as the republicans changed it for Supreme Court majorities and for taxes. The only reason the trump tax cut passed is because of this reconciliation provision that says you dont need 60 votes for their trump tax cuts for these budget items and you dont need it for Supreme Court justices. But somehow you need it for Voting Rights or for any of these other things that we care about. You make a lot of important points. I long ago worked in the United States senate as a staffer. It is all made up. I mean, you can have a vote rule. You can have a cloture rule. You could have exceptions to it. You can change it for judges, as you mentioned. You could change it for reconciliation. You could say budget is 50, Everything Else is 60. Its all made up. So depending on the stakes when you think about what we have been living through and what americans expect government to do, there may be reasons to make it up differently. If you cant get a majority, then maybe it shouldnt pass. But it is not necessarily what the founder had in mind anyway. Really interesting discussion. I want to thank the congresswoman and cornell for etfying us. We have a very special guest. Im excited about it. The views sunny on the beat next. N the beat next get 0. 9 apr financing on the 2021 rx 350. Experience amazing, at your lexus dealer. Mm. [ clicks tongue ] i dont know. I think they look good, man. Mm, smooth. Uh, they are a little tight. Like, too tight . Might just need to break em in a little bit. You dont want em too loose. For those who were born to ride theres progressive. With 24 7 roadside assistance. Okay. Think im gonna wear these home. Excellent choice. Welcome back. We talk about the news and the law with all kinds of great people. Right now we have someone so well versed on both who is actually making her beat debut. She is of course a former federal prosecutor, a renowned tv personality. You have seen her sitting alongside the dynamic women of the view for years where she pulls no punches. Perhaps something good will come out of this. If i could finish what i have to say, then maybe you would hear me. When you talk about a president that brags about grabbing women by the genitals. When you are talking about a president that pays hush payments to women and lies to the American People on a daily basis i am so relieved that is what justice finally looks like. Long before she became known to so many people, hostin was reporting on some of the biggest trials and providing analysis for over a decade across many networks. Im sunny hostin with the top stories on this monday morning. She had no shame. I think she had the mistress crazy eyes. Good morning. Sunny hostin is on the case. I prosecuted Child Sex Crimes and sex crimes against women. Excuse me. Excuse me, sir. Not that i should call you, sir, but excuse me. All that was missing was the birds going around her head. She is now embarking on a new challenge, launch ago Production Company that focuses on social justice. Shes out with her first novel summer on the bluffs. Sunny hostin joins me now. How are you doing . You are way back, ari. Way back. Way back in the red and black. Way back in the red and back lumberjack as biggie would tell you. I cant believe this is my first time on your wonderful show. Im surprised at that, but im happy to be here. Were excited to have you. On a personal note, i will mention viewers can see from looking at your life, you make even productive people feel a little unproductive. You are doing a lot of great stuff with what i want to get into. But lets start with the big legal news. When you look at everything thats been going on, including the legal controversy surrounding congressman matt gaetz. We mentioned he denies any misconduct. He hasnt been charged. And, yet, an ally of his has been indicted on sex crimes. There is an alleged confession letter. What do you see in a case like this . Whats important legally for everyone to keep in mind . Well, listen, i was a federal prosecutor, and as a federal prosecutor, you are always pretty happy when you have a cooperator that is a pretty good thing for a federal prosecutor, for any prosecutor, really. And i think the most important thing that most Defense Attorneys will tell someone like a matt gaetz is stop talking, stop talking, stop talks. So i am a bit surprised that we keep on hearing Little Things here and there from matt gaetz, but this is extremely serious. You know, i prosecuted Child Sex Crimes, trafficking, crimes against women for a living. These are cases that are taken extremely seriously and im extremely concerned that you have someone that appears to be a cooperator talking. And this is something that we dont know enough about, i think, to really give an opinion on a sitting congressman, but something that we should all be pretty concerned about. Yeah. You mention that its a theme with both mr. Giuliani who we mentioned earlier, and mr. Gaetz, which departs from whatever the standard advice would be. Yeah. And really, to your point, it is at the intersection of law and news. Once the news stories run their course over how many ever days, these stories do tend to fade, but when the subjects giuliani and gaetz both Start Talking again, theyre creating more news, which given the tenor of the stories you think they wouldnt want. Let me play your reaction of matt gaetz doing just that, speaking out again in a discussion with former trump officials. Take a look. Tell us your version of events and what you lived through in the last month. Well, the things the media has said about me are lies, and the truth will prevail. There is a desire in big government, in big media, in big tech to target, deplatform and december ploy those who championed the America First cause. Sunny . Again, its not smart at this point to say anything. Its certainly not smart for matt gaetz, who is clearly the target of an investigation to continue speaking to the media, to continue speaking to others, perhaps in congress. Hes making witness after witness after witness. This is a very big place for a prosecutor to be in. He doesnt know who is bugged and who isnt. Who has a wire, who doesnt have a wire. Hes making himself part of the story. I think what has been most surprising to me, ari, is Rudy Giuliani. I mean, he is being investigated by his former office. We used to say when i was a federal prosecutor, i was in the district of columbia, and we felt that we were the best office, of course, among sitting u. S. Attorneys office, but the Southern District of new york is said to be sort of the crown jewel at the department of justice. He headed that office. When you have your former Office Investigating you, you know some of the best of the best of the best are there. I cannot believe that after a Search Warrant is executed at your apartment that the next thing you want to do is give an interview on fox news. It really doesnt make any sense, especially because someone like Rudy Giuliani knows what it takes to get a Search Warrant to go into someones home. You have to have probable cause that a crime was committed. And in order to get a Search Warrant for someone who was sort of, you know, the personal lawyer for the president of the United States, you not only have to go up the chain at the Southern District, and ive gotten some of these Search Warrants. Theyre very difficult to get. You have got to go to your immediate supervisor. Sometimes you have to go all the way to the u. S. Attorney. And i would suspect that in this case, it may have even gone it certainly went to the Deputy Attorney general, but it may have even gone to Merrick Garland before it went to a district judge, a magistrate judge, before it went to a federal judge. They all thought perhaps that there was evidence of a crime. So for Rudy Giuliani and someone like matt gaetz to talk and talk and talk, if they are indicted, they have made their case much more difficult, in my humble opinion. All great points. And from experience. As mentioned in your introduction, tell us what moved you to write this novel and if you care to what else you are doing as well with this Production Company. Sure. Well, you know, the novel, by the way, was much easier to write than my memoire because memoirs are quite hard to write. Your family gets angry with you. Your friends get angry with you. This was such a joy, quite frankly, to write because it is the estate i wanted to read about. You know, we have gone through such difficult times, i think, over the past year and a half. I know my family suffered an incredible loss. We lost both of my husbands parents to covid. Im sorry. Thank you. We have been reeling. And i just thought, you know, why not read about some sort of escape . And i was it was really difficult for me to find a beach read centered on people who look like me, right . Just women of color, women of a certain age, of a certain seasoning. And Tony Morrison said if there is a book that you want to read but it hasnt been written yet, then you must write it. And i thought, im looking for this book i want to read. Im going to write it. And this was the impetus of this book. I placed it in Marthas Vineyard because it is my love letter to Marthas Vineyard. I love vacationing there. But most importantly, for me, it was one of three places that my friend larry graham, he died this year, wrote about in our kind of people. These were the only places in this country at one time that black people could buy waterfront property, and one of them was oak bluffs, one was sag harbor in the hamptons. I thought, im going the place it there and hopefully people will want to read about Historical Fiction And Go Visit Marthas Vineyard and join the obamas and join me and come and see what a magical place it is. Wow. I love that. And i love the innovation of that sound and sage advice from tony. And that could apply to anything. Could apply to what you want to post or a blog or something anyone can do. I hope you will come back on the beat. Let me remind everyone this new book is summer on the bluffs. You can check it out. When we come back, liz cheney punching back with a new response tonight to the gop. Stay with us. A new response tonight to the gop. Stay with us we look at what youve saved, what youll need, and help you build a flexible plan for cash flow that lasts, even when youre not working, so you can go from saving. To living. Lets go limu emu doug so you can go from saving. To living. Hey limu [ squawks ] how great is it that we get to tell everybody how Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need . I mean it. Oh, sorry. [ laughter ] woops [ laughter ] good evening meow nope. Oh. What . Im an emu ah ha ha. No, buddy buddy, its a filter only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty what happens when we Welcome Change . We can make Emergency Medicine possible at 40,000 feet. Instead of burning our past for power, we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. We can create new ways to connect. Rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. With app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps Companies Navigate change. Faster. Vmware. Welcome change. Obsession has many names, this is ours. The lexus is. All in on the sports sedan. Lease the 2021 is 300 for 369 a month for 36 months. Experience amazing, at your lexus dealer. Im norm. Im szasz. Lease the 2021 is 300 for 369 a month for 36 months. [norm] and we live in columbia, missouri. We do consulting, but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; its important. We walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. Weve both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. After about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didnt notice before. Its still helping me. I still notice a difference. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Look, if your wireless carrier was a guy youd leave him tomorrow. Not very flexible. Not great at saving. You deserve better. Xfinity mobile. Now they have unlimited for just 30 a month. 30. And theyre number one in customer satisfaction. His number. Delete it. Im deleting it. So, break free from the big three. Xfinity internet customers, switch to Xfinity Mobile and get unlimited with 5g included for 30 on the nations fastest, most reliable network. Now, i have to tell you sometimes with everything going on it takes comedians and comics and the funny people in our society to jolt us with some truth. There was this recent new yorker cover that highlights the gap between the tidy zoom lives we sometimes present talking on the screen to the reality of the stressful and messy real lives outside of that camera screen. And when you think about this, whether its cartoons that capture the way we live now or political cartoons that so many of us who follow politics follow for truth, there may be no more longlived source for political comedy and insight in the United States than the longrunning comic trip doonsbury, satirizing the politicians who control parts of our lives with sometimes biting humor. The first Comic Strip Artist to ever win a pulitzer. Did you know that . They won prizes at the kom film festival. First came to many peoples attention with his Scathing Critiques in the nixon era. Hes still going strong today. Why am i talking about gary trudeau . Well, the good news is im talking about him because hes our special guest tonight. Dbury 50, what a beautiful thing. And also with us, a friend of the show and someone who knows gary as well. David corn, Washington Bureau chief for mother jones. What im saying is, both of you guys have done some good work. Thank you for being here. How are you guys doing . Good. Great. Happy to be back. Really happy to have you back, gary. I will say in fool disclosure, there are stressful parts of this job and fun parts and getting to meet you in the context of interviews is cool because i was a kid and a polisci major following your cartoons. It is like a lot of jobs. You know, i dont set the bar too high. I have to set it at good enough because deadline is a deadline. I would like steady excellence. That would be purely aspirational for me, but i seem to be Temperament Tally suited to do my work in a short period of time and move on. I wanted to ask you about taking that into biden era because everyone understands that it may be a good thing for the nation when there is a little less grift coming out of the white house. Snl itself has struggled at times to find even a great way to mock biden. Take a look at just some of the people they have tried out. Hey. Notice anything different about me . Grandpa joe got the glow up. Younger . Up. Taller . Sure. Better . Eh. It is a cooky time filled with demons and darkness. Also, its halloween. For some trump voters, it is the only day they will wear a mask. It is a problem for all of us comedy professionals. You know, after five years of caricaturing this Baroque Presence of donald trump, you know, this drawing joe biden is somewhat of a letdown. I have checked out some of what my colleagues and the editorial columnists have been doing. And im sad to report that most of them just look like drawings of an old white guy. And you know that they know because theyre putting labels on and theyre labeling biden. You never had to do that on trump. It was such fun drawing him. But i also have, you know, a long history of simply drawing of not drawing the president , of drawing the white house and then having the voices emanate from it. And i may have to go back to that. Your thoughts on all the above, david . Gary knows im a big fan of the strip. I still remember reading those first strips when i was a teenager saying, wow, this is Something Different. This guy is doing Something Different thats never been done with comic strips and political humor. And a lot of people who there arent a lot of real life characters in your book that you depict graphically. Nixon, jimmy carter, you have all these references. Donald trump, though, you got on him in 1987. You started drawing him. You jumped on him in 1987. And you have had an over 30year relationship with this image. Why him initially . I saw trump as a fullblown Comic Strip Character right out of the box. So i just kind of drafted him and started drawing him. Then the steps that he took to assuage his vanity seemed extreme, and it was just irresistible. I had to keep drawing him. I do think at times, whether you have wanted to see this way or not, you have been viewed as a First Amendment hero in fighting for at least expanding what a comic strip can do and putting yourself, you know, in front of people who would say, no, this goes too far. Yeah. Well, look, were going to wrap this up the way we went into it, which is david and i complimenting and fan boying over gary and him just being chill about it. Gary trudeau and david corn, appreciate both of you. The book dbury 50, check it out. And up ahead, when we come back, as promised, liz cheney out with new remarks hitting on the trump,trump, quote, cult. Stay with us. Cult. Stay with us incomparable design makes it beautiful. 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The number one House Republican is now actively trying to oust the number three republican, congresswoman cheney. What is new tonight within the last hour, liz cheney punching back. She has a new Opinion Piece in the washington post. She warned, history is watching. She said the party is at a Turning Point and needs to, quote, steer away from the dangerous and antidemocratic trump cult of personality. That coming from a long time conservative fighting for her leadership post. Thats the update only story weve been following. That does it for me. Ill see you at 6 00 p. M. Eastern. You can find me online on social media, instagram, twitter and facebook. The reidout with joy reid is up next. T with joy reid is up next that Delicious Scramble was microwaved . Get outta here. Everybodys a skeptic. Wright brothers . More like, yeah right, brothers get outta here its not crazy. Its a scramble. Just crack an egg. My grandfather had an amazing life, but ancestry showed me its a scramble. 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We begin with the reidout with a party in moral crisis. Not just in washington. Lets take a gander, shall we . At the Republican Party in idaho. Yes, idaho. For a glimpse of just how corrupt and rotten this party is. Last month republican state representative Aaron Von Ehlinger was accused of what he called unconsented sexual contact with an Adult Volunteer on his staff. What that actually means is that he was accused of rape by a 19yearold intern which he denies. But heres how the Idaho Statesman described the interns allegation. Quote, he took her to dinner and then his apartment. She told the