Votes. A landslide. I did it. Very impressive. Then Vice President Walter Mondale finding the humor with Speaker Tip Oneill in the Landslide Defeat in the 1980 president ial election. In just a moment, were going to speak with president ial Historian Michael Beschloss about the extraordinary legacy of the former Vice President who passed away yesterday at the age of 93. Good Morning And Welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, april 20th, along with joe, willie, and me. We have former chairman of the republican national committee, now an msnbc Political Analyst, michael steele. Good to have you with us, michael. Were going to begin with the case against former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd. Now in the hands of a sequestered jury. The panel of six white and six black were multiracial jurors began deliberating at 4 00 Central Time yesterday and ended the day without a verdict following hours of Closing And Rebuttal arguments. What the defendant did to George Floyd killed him. Make no mistake. This is not a prosecution of the police. It is a prosecution of the defendant. And Theres Nothing worse for good police than a bad police, who doesnt follow the rules. Who doesnt follow procedure, who doesnt follow training. He called out to George Floyd, he said, you cant win. And George Floyd replied, im not trying to win. Im not trying to win. Im scared. But the defendant was the defendant was trying to win he wasnt going to be told what to do. He wasnt going to take a challenge to his authority. He was trying to win. And George Floyd paid for it with his life. I submit to you that the state has failed to meet its burden of proof beyond a reasonable of doubt. You have to be convinced that the defendants actions caused the death of mr. Floyd. Actions that happened before mr. Floyd was arrested that have nothing to do with Officer Chauvins activities are not the natural consequences of the defendants actions. Were there other contributing factors that were not the natural result of mr. Chauvins acts . The drug ingestion, right . The bad heart, the diseased heart, the hypertension. All of these things existed before mr. Chauvin arrived. You were told, for example that mr. Floyd died because his heart was too big. You heard that testimony. And now having seen all of the evidence, having heard all of the evidence, you know the truth. And the truth of the matter is, that the reason George Floyd is dead is because mr. Chauvins heart was too small. Willie, again, you never know whats going to happen when the juries go in and begin deliberating. Never, for people who have been through that process, many come out of the Jury Room, in that experience, a bit shaken at times by all thats taken in there. All the prejudices, all the assumptions with no basis in law. That is the system. If you have a jury of 12 people. That may happen. All of that said, yesterday seemed as straightforward as this entire case has been. It was, the defense was scrambling, trying to blame Everybody And Everything and even the judge at The End, when he gave them Jury Instructions said, basically, said mr. Chauvin, he owned what happened to this person regardless of how he found him. The fact that other causes related to his death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability. Which is a very important jury instruction. It is, for sure. And what we heard from the Defense Yesterday is what weve heard throughout this trial, which is the ancillary factors, talking about Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. That was shot down by an expert. Talking about the drugs in mr. Floyds system. Talking about the crowd that surrounded the officer and George Floyd as being threatening, somehow. That the prosecution came out and said, heres a picture of the crowd. You tell me if you think this group of people is threatening or if theyre concerned that a man is being killed. And we heard whats unique about this case, guys, is that weve all seen what happened. Weve seen it again and again and again. The world has seen what happened. And so at The End of the day, the prosecution asked the jury to believe its eyes. Youve seen the video, believe your eyes, said jerry blackwell, the prosecutor there. Lets bring into our conversation, civil rights attorney, Charles Coleman, and msnbc legal Analyst And Defense attorney, danny cevallos. Good morning to you both. Charles, let me begin with you and what you saw in that courtroom yesterday. Do you feel that the prosecution did everything it needed to do . Obviously, you dont know what kind of doubt is in the mind of a juror, but did the prosecution make its case . Good morning, willie. I think that the prosecution absolutely did. As i expected, they led around common sense, trusting your eyes, referring to what the jurors have already seen in terms of the video and all of the evidence that has been laid out. Of course, they spoke to all of the technical elements necessary in order to satisfy each piece of what the charges actually entail. But at The End of the day, i think you are absolutely correct and joe as well, in terms of the fact that they made it very, very clear, very, very straightforward, and very, very simple for the jury in terms of making a decision. And as a prosecutor, thats exactly what you want to do. You want to make it as clear and straightforward and simple for the jury as possible. I thought they did some brilliant things in terms of their themes. They humanized George Floyd, which is something that i expected. But as you saw in the Leadin Clip to the segment, they isolationed Derek Chauvin. They isolated him as a Police Officer, cede of it being a thing where the whole Police Department is on trial. Where if there are people in the jury who are sympathetic to police, they might have a problem convicting Derek Chauvin, what they did in that moment was that they separated Derek Chauvin from police or basically said, listen, police are not on trial. Derek chauvin is not in this Case Representative of police. And because of that, we dont want you to basically make that association in way that might be challenging for some of the jurors. So isolating him in that way and humanizing George Floyd, it again allowed there to be very emotional, very feelingbased Summation And Argument that surrounded the technical evidence that they had already put forward from the jury about the elements of each crime. Danny, it was interesting, we heard from the prosecutors yesterday, reminding the jurors, this is not an antipolice prosecution, its a Propolice Prosecution, because they argue, an officer like Derek Chauvin makes all police look bad. How do you think that plays into it . When they talk about the role of police more broadly in the country . To a jury, if you have a sympathetic juror to police, for example . This is a very good strategy by the prosecution. Dont put the entire Police Department on trial. Isolate one of them and say, look, this was a rogue actor. Generally, were not trying the Police Department of minneapolis. Were not trying police throughout the country. Were not trying Law Enforcement. Just focus on what this Rogue Officer did and then you will not shoulder the additional burden of looking at whether or not Law Enforcement in the country needs to change or something like that. Thats not the issue here. And the prosecution wisely stayed away from that. The other reason they stayed away from it was selfpreservation. They work Hand In hand with this Police Department. They surely dont want to put them on trial for this case and create a rift in future cases. Danny, im curious what you thought of the amount of video that was played by the defense, almost trying to sort of change the perception that the video, which is engraved in so many peoples minds, so traumatizing, but also video of the crowd and painting the crowds as this sort of dangerous throng when there would be like two people on a corner saying, can you stop killing that guy . I mean, sometimes, it just didnt match up to what they were saying, it appeared. I still wonder if the Prosecution Team, on a break, the break that the judge imposed, midway through the Defense Closing, got into their Side Room, looked at Each Other and said, did he just play our own video . They must have been thrilled because that could have only have helped the prosecution. Although, im not secondguessing the defense. They must have needed some evidence in that video that they needed to get before the jury. And you notice, they only picked video or mostly picked video that didnt show Derek Chauvins knee on the back of George Floyds neck. But that was a decision that carried a lot of risk, but the defense must have felt it was warranted given the circumstances. Yeah, wow. After Closing Arguments, the defense requested the judge declare a mistrial over comments from Congresswoman Maxine waters, urging protesters to, quote, get more confrontational if chauvin is found not guilty. An Elected Official, a united States Congressperson was making what i interpreted to be and what i think are reasonably interpreted to be threats against the sanctity of the jury process. Ill give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned, but whats the States Position . This goes back to what i was saying from the beginning. I wish Elected Officials would stop talking about this case, especially in a manner that is disrespectful to the rule of launch. Their failure to do so i think is abhorrent, but i dont think it is prejudiced with additional material that would prejudice this jury. They have been told not to watch the news. I trust they are following those instructions. And that there is not in any way a prejudice from the event. A congresswomans opinion really doesnt matter a whole lot. Here is what Congresswoman Waters said on saturday. Were looking for a guilty verdict. I am very hopeful and i hope that were going to get a verdict that will say guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And if we dont, we cannot go away. Weve got to stay on the Street And Weve got to get more active. Weve got more confrontational. Weve got to make sure that they know that we mean business. The congresswoman later said her remarks were about, quote, confronting the justice suspect, confronting the policing thats going on through legislation and speaking up and that any suggestion otherwise is a distortion. When asked if Congresswoman Waters should apologize, House Speaker Nancy pelosi said, absolutely not, saying that maxine talked about confrontation in the matter of the civil Rights Movement. I, myself, think we should take our lead from the George Floyd family. Theyve handled this with great dignity and no ambiguity. So, michael steele, the judge called those words abhorrent and said that Maxine Waters may have actually given Derek Chauvin an issue on appeal. What do you think . Its interesting, joe. In playing that clip and listening to it again, the judge almost sounds like he said two things at once. One, that, yeah, the defense may now have something on appeal and, you know, having this Elected Official inject themselves into this process is abhorrent and antithetical to their oath, Et Cetera. But then he says, well, you know, what a congresswoman says doesnt mitigate against a conviction here. Doesnt really change whatever the outcome is here. It doesnt really play that strongly. It doesnt matter. So he kind of said two things out of each side of his mouth in that respect. I think the first part was more frustration that, you know, oh you know, really . Youre going to go there right as were about to go to the jury with this . Just kind of the disruption of it, which is what i dont think the judge really, really appreciated. But then he settled and got that off of his chest. He said, at The End of the day, it doesnt matter What Maxine says. I trust the jurors that have followed my instructions, have not been following this in the news, and now will go into the deliberations with the proper instructions that ive given them and come to the right decision. So i think what you heard was more frustration from the judge. The politics notwithstanding, the republicans and others want to make a lot of noise about it, but i think in the main, it would have been better if shed not said what she said in that instance leading up a to all of this. It would have been better to just kind of cool the jets, but i think the Judge Kind of walked it back a little bit, just in that little bit into the clip there . I appreciate what Nancy Pelosi said and, you know, a lot of us know exactly where her heart or where Maxines Heart is, but to be fair, when you say, weve got to stay on the streets, and then two seconds later, weve got to be more confrontational, we all have to really think about what we say in times like this, because that definitely touches a nerve when, you know, weve been through a year like weve been through. Black lives matter protests and keeping them peaceful and strong and sending a message, but if youre talking about policy or legislation, joe, thats different. This was talking about protests in the streets. And she kind of got caught up in it. By putting two terms too closely together. Charles, that being said, if judges in the future, appellate judges in the future overturn weeks of deliberations based on what 1 of 435 members of congress say, when members of congress say so many crazy things. Back benchers. I mean, are we going to really is that going to be a standard for reversible error . If so, that is a mighty low standard, especially if its a member of congress from across the country. Not from minnesota, but from california. I think the last piece of what you were just saying, joe, is really, really important to the conversation. And that is basically, what is the relevance and the connection of the comments and the congressperson to the actual jury and to the actual case . Had it been someone who was from minnesota, perhaps that may have been something that may rate more heavily in the eyes of an appeals court. At the same time, its not necessarily one of 435, its a number of other on the platform, how widely it was circulated. And ultimately, the biggest question in that regard is going to be, what level of influence did it have on the jury. Could this become literally a Part Of the national conversation in such a way that it could have influenced the jury in a manner that prejudiced the defendant . And i think thats where the Judges Defense was ultimately from in terms of shaving off any sort of notion of a mistrial at this point. But i want to make one last point on this, because its really important for our viewers to understand. We are currently shaping this discussion as though this is the ultimately. This is the ceiling of american jurisprudence. The reality is, this should be our basement floor. Because, what does it say about how much black lives do and dont matter if It Takes this much to secure a conviction from a person with this video of nearly ten minutes of a knee on Someones Neck when hes in a prone position, huffed in restraints and not resisting. That should be the floor for what It Takes for us to secure a guilty conviction, not the ceiling. So in terms of our conversation overall, the level of influence of Congresswoman Waters comments should not bear that significantly, because we should already be at a better place. Danny, were talking about this here, that there has been overwhelming testimony in favor of the prosecution from medical experts who have talked about George Floyd dying from asphyxiation, from members of his own Police Department, from his Police Chief, from his direct supervisor, from use of Force Experts, saying he violated our policy. We dont teach that. He should have taken his knee off the neck. And yet, you can speak to this, im sure prosecutors are sitting here right now with their you know, fingers crossed and maybe saying a prayer, because they just dont know what the 12person Jury heard over the last three weeks, sitting in that box. So what is it like for an attorney on either side of a case like this, as they sit and wait for the jury to come back . Its the worst. You try to check your email, you try to return your phone calls, but you just Cant Mind around the fact that theres a jury waiting. You sleepwalk through life for however many days or weeks as you wait for a jury to come back. But for those couple of days, and it can be that long, theres no fun whatsoever. And i have to say, if you can get the prosecutors to talk right now, you talk about the overwhelming evidence and how they paraded in both Colleague Officers and use of Force Experts and scientific experts. I guarantee you theres not one prosecutor on that team that would say that their case is a layup. They know that the burden rests with them. It never shifts. They have the burden at all times. The defendant is cloaked in the Presumption Of Innocence. And thats why the Defense Case is much shorter, sometimes theres no Defense Case at all. Sometimes ive rested without calling a single witness. And thats because the power of that burden and the Jury Instructions that the prosecution has the burden of proof. Each and every element. If the Defense Undercuts just one element. If the Defense Undercuts causation, especially, that is a defense to all charges. If the defense can somehow show or create reasonable doubt that the knee in the neck, the restraint was justified or not a felony or at least justified, i should say, that is a defense to all charges. So the rules are skewed in favor of the defense and i guarantee theres no prosecutor who thinks they have it in the bag. Danny cevallos and Charles Coleman, thank you both for being on the show this morning. Well be following this and im sure well see you again soon. Still ahead on morning joe, president biden says when it comes to infrastructure, hes prepared to compromise in an effort to gain republican support. Well talk to Congressman And House majority whip Jim Clyburn about just that. Plus, senators an Gust King and Mazie Hirono will both be our guests this morning. But first, Historian Michael Beschloss on the Life And Legacy of Walter Mondale. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Ale. Re watching morning joe. Well be right back. Ac Dc Back In Black the bowls are back. Applebees irresistabowls all just 8. 99. Dry eye symptoms again . Inflammation might be to blame. Time for ache and burn overthecounter Eye Drops typically work by lubricating your eyes and may provide temporary relief. Those probably wont touch me. Xiidra works differently, targeting inflammation that can cause dry Eye Disease. Xiidra,. Noooo it can provide lasting relief. Xiidra is the only fda approved nonsteroid treatment specifically for the signs and symptoms of dry Eye Disease one drop in each eye, twice a day. Dont use if youre allergic to xiidra. Common Side Effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied to the eye, and unusual taste sensation. 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I picked someone who i thought would make a superb Vice President or if necessary, a president. Reporter when mondale, nicknamed fritz, ran for president , hed been in democratic politics for nearly three decades, including 12 years in the senate and four as Jimmy Carters Vice President. In the primaries, mondale battled Colorado Senator Gary Hart, who Ran On New Ideas. In a debate, mondale fought back with a Fast Food Chains ad slogan. When i hear your new ideas, im reminded of that ad, wheres the beef . Yeah. Reporter the Fall Campaign against President Ronald Reagan was an uphill fight, challenging a popular incumbent at a time of peace and prosperity. Mr. Reagan will Raise Taxes and so will i. He wont tell you, i just did. Reporter it was intended as candor, but was seen as a blunder. Mondale got a glimmer of hope when Reagans Age became an issue. In a debate, reagan buried those doubts and mondales hopes. I am not going to exploit for political purposes my Opponents Youth and inexperience. Reporter Mondale Lost in an historic landslide. All of those states colored in blue are Ronald Reagans states. Reporter he won only his Home State of minnesota and the district of columbia. Though only in his 50s, mondale became a party elder, serving as u. S. Ambassador to japan. But in 2002, mondale replaced minnesota democratic Senator Paul Wellstone on the ballot, after wellstone was killed in a Plane Crash just 11 days before election day. He narrowly lost, his last hurrah. Mondales wife of 59 years, joan, died in 2014. They had two sons and a daughter, who died of Brain Cancer in 2011. Walter Fritz Mondale once said he loved public life and always looked for ways to serve. Kevin tibbles, Nbc News. Lets bring in author and Nbc News president ial historian, michael beschloss. Michael, thank you so much for being with us. Al gore said of Walter Mondale, you can divide Vice President s into two categories throughout american history. Those who came before Walter Mondale and those who came after. He redefined and shaped the dimensions of that job. He did it. And june, where that came from, joe, im sure you know the story, is that ubert humphrey, great liberal senator, served for four years of torture under Lyndon Johnson. Johnson used to say, i want a Vice President whos so loyal, ill clean this up for our elegant audience, whos so loyal that Hell Kiss my probably the most powerful. And i think thats pretty close to being true. And that speaks says much, not only of Walter Mondale, but also Jimmy Carter in reading through some of dr. Brzezinskis diaries. You find just how patient a man Jimmy Carter can be with some of those who are under him. Im sorry, mika, its the truth. Okay. But carter was a trendsetter in allowing this to happen. He was president after all, right . Thats exactly right. And he made this deal with Carter And Carter actually was impressed when mondale came down in the summer of 1976, but mondale, who he had thought of as this nice guy, was wondering how strong he was. Very impressed that mondale came in and said, this is what i want. But you know, he had this odd attitude toward having been Vice President. I knew him over the years, Walter Mondale, and i remember early on, this must have been 10 or 15 years, sent him an email saying, dear mr. Vice president , he wrote back, please call me fritz. Nobody wants to be called Vice President. Michael, you watch these clips that weve been playing this morning of Walter Mondale with Ronald Reagan in particular, and its just such a snapshot of how different things were. If you watch that clip that we just showed in the Kevin Tibbles piece from the debate, where mondale gives a genuine, Hearty Laugh at Ronald Reagans line about not exposing his youth and inexperience. If you look at the clipped clip we played at the top of the show where mondale is presiding over the senate and reading through the electoral votes, announcing his own landslide loss, where they lost 44 states in 1980 and hes kind of smiling and turns to Tip Oneill and says it was a landslide and gets a Standing Ovation in the senate from both side of the aisle. You contrast that to the way the senate is today and think about January 6th, the way we went through that election. My goodness, what a different time . It was a different time. I had lunch with mondale two days after the day that Donald Trump won the election in 2016. And as you remember, minnesota was so close, even two days later, they thought it might still go to Donald Trump, which it finally did not, narrowly. Mondale could not believe that the state of Hubert Humphrey and himself and Gene Mccarthy and orville freeman, that old democratic former Labor Progressi Tradition could come to Donald Trump. It almost did that year and almost did, as you know, last year. Former president Jimmy Carter released this statement, reading in par i mourn the Passing Of My Dear friend woerlt mondale, who i consider the best Vice President in our nations history. Fritz used his personal Skill And Integrity to transform the Vice Presidency into a dynamic policy, Driving Force that had never been seen before and still exists today. And of course, thats something, i spoke with Chris Matthews Last Night, michael, and chris worked inside the carter White House. And he said unlike past Vice President s, he wasnt shoved off in the old executive office building. He was in the west wing, his staff was in the west wing, and Chris Matthews said, i witnessed this firsthand. Mondale was the first Vice President to have an office in the west wing, the first to have a staff working on a daily basis with the president himself. This made the former u. S. Senator from minnesota The First Modern Vice President to spend his tenure as a Functioning Member of the Chief Executives governing and political team. And he was that guy and of course, he brought in also his midwest liberal values to every debate. Yeah, thats true. And the other thing is that, you know, mondale sometimes seen we love his graciousness and humor. But he was also a tough guy underneath all of that, for instance, in 1979, Jimmy Carter gave this famous, referred to as the malaise speech, a word he did not use, he fired half the cabinet, and mondale was so upset by this that privately, he talked to aides about maybe even resigning the presidency or refusing to run with carter the next year in 1980, and two things we remember him for, 1984, as a president ial candidate, were just seeing the image on the screen, he chose Geraldine Ferraro, a woman candidate. He did it because he was a strong believer in trying to help women, but also, the Poll Numbers shown him by his aides said, we think you only do whats easy and you dont take risks. He felt that this would be, as he said, an exciting choice. And the other thing, you know, at that convention, what he said in his acceptance speech, President Reagan and i will both Raise Taxes. He wont tell you, i just did. That was a reaction to many people in the spring, including Gary Hart saying, you know, Walter Mondale is just someone whos going to tell everyone what they like to hear. That was not at the center of the man. No, it really wasnt. That reminds me, i spoke with mark brzezinski, Mikas Brother and the ambassador, Last Night about Walter Mondale and his remembrances. And he said, one of the things that dr. Brzezinski respected the most of Walter Mondale is he wasnt afraid to make unpopular decisions. He talked about also 1979, the shah of iran was ill, he left iran and there were many around Jimmy Carter who didnt want to allow him in the united states. And dr. Brzezinski was one who said, he has been an ally of the united states of america. We are not going to leave him in the hands of ayatollah khomeini. And dr. Brzezinski remember one of the people who stood out and made that unpopular decision and stood shoulder to shoulder with him was Walter Mondale. And for Walter Mondale, its simple. Hes been our ally. Were not going to turn him over to the mob. And not thats exactly right. And at the time, that was not a popular position to take at the time. No, it was not. And dr. Brzezinski, as he writes in his memoir, which came out in the early 1980s, as we all know, he said that he was skeptical at first about mondale, because, you know, he had heard from other people how nice mondale was and worried that mondale might be too eager to please everyone. And so he was very, very much taken by that. And mondale made the same point that dr. Brzezinski did, which was, you know, not only is it gracious to take in the shah who was our ally, but if you dont do it, how can anyone expect to get an ally in any important country around the world if this is the way we treat someone who is by our side for decades. Michael beschloss, thank you so much for being on this morning. Appreciate it. Im thinking, i named my rabbit, Bunny Sadr back then. They got a kick out of it. That is a deep dive. Its a deep dive. Its in the weeds. Literally. Coming up, whats gearing up to be the most consequential new York City mayoral primary in a generation. Well take a look at the field and whether the current frontrunner has what It Takes to lead americas largest city. Plus, as more and more of the country gets the covid vaccine, a question on a lot of peoples minds. Are outdoor Mask Mandates still necessary . That conversation is ahead on morning joe. Y . 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Anthony fauci noted that israel has eased up on mask requirements because more than 60 of its population has at least one dose of the covid19 vaccine, whereas the u. S. Is at a 50 , with a much higher amount of disease circulating. Me emphasized again the importance of getting vaccinated. Joining us now, political writer for The New York Times and msnbc Political Analyst, Nick Confessore. Good to have you onboard, nick. So nick, we have been very conservative with a small c has in medically conservative and scientifically conservative in following what the doctors and the scientists and dr. Fauci and dr. Gottlieb, dr. Dave and every Doctor Dr. Vin gupta and every doctor that weve had on this show over the past year has said. At the same time, and yet, it is absurd to suggest that people who have vaccinations around other people with vaccinations should still wear masks outside. The question was raised in an atlantic article yesterday. Many others are asking the same thing. Like, are you serious . You look at the science and in this case, the science does not match up with an outdoor mask mandate, especially for people who are vaccinated. Nick, im curious. I saw you tweeted a similar article yesterday. What are your thoughts . I was curious about this and i tweeted an article from slate that went through some of the science and it was amazing to watch the reaction pour in. People from the right were saying, of course not, you idiot. And people on the left are saying, its so selfish you wouldnt wear a mask. Look, i wear a mask all the time. Ill probably keep wearing a Mask On the Subway after this is over for flu. But the reality is, according to the science, if you have the vaccine and youre walking around in a park outdoors and No One is nearby, you probably dont have to wear a mask. And so the policy now is more about the risk to other people who are not vaccinated and also creating some social cohesion around the practice to make it easier for everyone. But whats kind of interesting here, joe, is that the directives from public health authorities are not exactly about the science. Its sort of act the impact overall for everybody. The answer is probably still wear a mask, but if youre not wearing a mask and if you have the vaccine and youre sitting in a park, you are probably not going to give it to somebody or get it. And willie, if they want to say its about social cohesion, say its about social cohesion. But if our guide has been, and it has been, over the past year, what does science say, what does medicine say . If were criticizing Donald Trump for not following science, for being too reckless on one side, well, that works the other way, too. If you have studies already out that show the extraordinarily low probability of somebody with a vaccine getting covid again, i mean, those numbers win suspect, two people with vaccines outside, not wearing masks, talking to Each Other. Im guessing the probability of either one of them getting covid, quite possibly, and i would say, probably lower than having getting covid again half a vaccination. Heres the twisted logic that i see. You see people in new York City walking down the street outdoors with their Mask On. If they want to do that, of course, thats their right. And Part Of its that were a little bit confused of what were supposed to do and not supposed to do. But they have the Mask On, and they go into a restaurant, indoors, and they take the mask off to eat with a bunch of people. Now youre inside and eating and talking and all of those things. So its very confusing. And to your point about doctors. Dr. Jha, dr. Bedelia came out yesterday, pretty clearly and said, its time to end outdoor Mask Mandates. If youre at a rally, a concert outside, a bunch of people packed together, wear the mask. If youre walking around, going for a run, they say, its just not necessary, based on the Science Weve known not just for the last month or so, but for the last year about the way that this disease is transmitted. It is transmitted, mika, indoors. It is transmitted with a lack of ventilation. And again, Weve Seen Examples time and again about being outside and how difficult it is, just like we, at the beginning, remember, everybody was scrubbing down every surface. We found out it didnt spread on surfaces. It doesnt. Its very hard to spread outside, where theres ventilation. So if youre talking about people with vaccinations, we want to get everybody. Were at 50 . We want to be at 100 of vaccinations. All right . Telling people, oh, yeah, get the vaccination, you still have to wear your mask. If youre talking to somebody else outside, you still need to wear your mask. Im sorry, its just stupid and not backed by science. Okay, dr. Scarborough and dr. Confessore, thank you very much for junior input. But if you are listening to dr. Fauch, what hes saying is, like a country like israel, were not there yet. Were trying to get completely past 50 vaccinated. We are trying to get to a point where our covid levels are going down. Theyre not. Theyre higher. And every measure must be taken to try and curb the spread of the coronavirus. And as you know, in places like new York City. Theyre not just walking 6 feet apart, theyre going into stores. They are at a stop sign. Put on the mask when you go in a store. Or you could just keep the Mask On. Its not The End of the world. At this point, a lot of americans are ready to move on. And if you have a vaccination you can hold on a second. Yeah. Its dr. Steele. Dr. Michael steele, what say you . Yall can keep going. Im loving it. Theyre so dumb im with dr. Mika on this. Were having this conversation, because for a year, we were stuck in stupid about the mask. Now were on the back end, everybody wants to claim science when they werent listening to the science in the beginning. And so what mika just said and what dr. Fauci just said is now where we are. Where were now in this Brandnew Space where you have a lot of open air and opportunities, were still not at a point where, to use that old term, herd immunity, to use those old ideas, when you get over a certain threshold of people vaccinated yet. But became we came into this all wrong, as my mama used to say, all ass backwards did your mama really say that . Oh, yes, she did. Youre making that up. Oh, okay. All right. Thats good. Okay, michael. The thing is, we didnt have 50 of our population vaccinated. And again, it was hard to catch the coronavirus outside in good ventilation before. And at this point, i mean, im sorry weve got to get our covid rates down. Im suddenly, knowing how John Travolta felt as the boy in the plastic bubble. Okay. Lets move on, the doctors have spoken here. And of course, nobodys old enough to remember that Madefortv Afternoon Movie but me. I do. I know you are. You pop culture but Nick Confessore, speaking about imminent danger. Imminent danger and disaster, lets talk about the new York City mayoral race. Youve been following it closely. Ive seen a lot of polls that have Andrew Yang ahead. What have you seen . Well, the thing thats so fascinating about this race is that this guy has been in the lead for a long time now. And theres no clear Explanation Or Consensus on why. And in fact, if you look at the coverage of this race and the way people talk about it, the coverage is that Andrew Yang keeps making mistakes. He criticized the teachers unions and the school closures. He called for a crackdown on street vendors. He called for more Police Presence to protect the asian american people in new York City. And these are all being treated as gaffes or mistakes. And yet, he is leading in this poll. Its not a huge lead. Its one in four likely voters. And its a new system for voting, the right choice voting, which is chaotic and hard to predict. But the question is, so why is he ahead despite these mistakes. And what if they arent mistakes. If you look at the poll from new york one what i think is so fascinating is that over half, 60 of voters who might vote in this election consider themselves kind of democrats or normal democrats. Not progressives, not conservatives, just democrats. And you really have to wonder after eight years of mayor de blasio, who is not a popular mayor right now, who ran as a selfconscious liberal progressive activist, if people just saying, look, i just want a normy democrat. Im not up for the revolution. This guy seems nice. Heaps got some good ideas. Hes a happy mayor, maybe. Lets go for that guy. So what i wonder, and what im watching for, is if there is this quiet plurality of voters who are tuning out twitter and all of these Attacks On Yang and just think, heres a guy whos normal and like us, lets go for him. Willie geist, a lot going on right now. There are about three or four candidates who are. Right now at the top of the polls. We remember, though, back in mayor de blasios first race, he came Out Of Nowhere at The End to win. To nicks point, this is a city that tends to go to the city. Its not a huge surprise to me that Andrew Yang is leading. If the position that the school is open should be controversial, let me share with you, its not among parents in this city. They want the schools open and they wanted it open since september. Michael steele, what do you see as you look in this race . Obviously, its very early. Obviously, the primary comes up in june, its relatively early. What do you see as you look at Andrew Yang as a phenomenon and this group of more classic progressives behind him . You know, its an interesting question. You know, heres a guy who came Out Of Nowhere in the president ial race, put together a campaign that connected with a wide swath of americans across the country. Was in the game for quite some time. Has been able to now translate into a race for mayor. And i think, you know, to the broader point about what to the mixed point about what new yorkers want, they just want normal. They just want someone whos going to maybe get the trains to do what the trains are supposed to do and get the schools open and just sort of bring a stillness to what has been a chaotic period in new York City as it has been around the country. So i think nick has his finger on as interesting pulse about how voters are going to actually digest the possibility of the next mayor being normal, like them, concerned about the things theyre concerned about in getting something done. And Andrew Yang puts forth this image, at least, we have not seen the practical aspects of it, because weve never seen him in a leadership role, where hes had to make an executive decision, but theyre trusting that hes going to bring that sort of practical, common Sense Sort of new York Style way of doing things to solving some of their problems. And right now, they like it. And they could very well be in a position to become the next mayor. Doctors Nick Confessore and michael steele, thank you very much for your opinions this morning. So great. Still ahead, a Medical Examiner releases the cause of death for capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who died after the January 6th riot at the capitol. Well talk about the significance of that ruling. Plus, we are awaiting a verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial as the jury continues its deliberations follow yesterdays Closing Arguments. Also this morning, Senator Angus King was among the lawmakers who met in the Oval Office Yesterday to discuss the President S infrastructure Jobs Plan and Senator King joins us ahead on morning joe. S us ahead on morning joe. I signed up because i was curious. I learned about my Grandfathers Life on ancestry and it was a remarkable twentiethcentury transformation. He did a lot of living before i knew him. Bring your Family History to life like never before. Get started for free at ancestry. Com if you wanna be a winner then get a Turkey Footlong from Subway®. Thats oven roasted turkey. Piled high with crisp veggies. On freshly baked bread so, lets get out there and get those footlongs. Now at Subway®, Buy One Footlong in the app, and get one 50 off. Subway®. Eat fresh. Introducing the new Sleep Number 360 smart bed. 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Call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be lifethreatening, or uncontrollable muscle movements as these may be permanent. These are not all the serious Side Effects. This is where i want to be. Talk to your doctor and ask if latuda could make the difference youve been looking for in your Bipolar Depression symptoms. This case is exactly what you thought when you saw it first. When you saw that video. It is exactly that. You can believe your eyes. Its exactly what you believed. Its exactly what you saw with your eyes. Its exactly what you knew. Its what you felt in your gut. Its what you now know in your heart. This wasnt policing. This was murder. Start from a point of the Presumption Of Innocence and see how far the state can get. The fate of the officer accused of killing George Floyd is now in the hands of a jury. Welcome back to morning joe. It is tuesday, april 20th. Along with joe, willie, and me, we have Msnbc Contributor Mike Barnicle, pulitzer prizewinning Columnist And Associate editor of the Washington Post and msnbc Political Analyst, eugene robinson. Good to have you both. And we begin with a case against former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd. A sequestered jury is now deliberating, following hours of Closing And Rebuttal arguments. Nbcs Gabe Gutierrez reports. Reporter after 45 witnesses and 14 days of testimony, Derek Chauvins fate is in the hands of the jury. You can believe your eyes. Reporter during Closing Argument, in excruciating details, prosecutors reminded jurors of floyd pinned under Chauvins Knee for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. George floyds final words on may 25, 2020, were, please, i cant breathe. He said those words to the defendant. He asked for help with his very last breath. Reporter prosecutors trying to keep the jurys focus on the actions of one Police Officer, not the whole system. This is not an antipolice prosecution. Its a Propolice Prosecution. Reporter chauvin is facing three charges. Second and thirddegree Murder And Seconddegree manslaughter. If convicted, the most serious charge carries up to 40 years in prison. But legal experts say a firsttime offender like chauvin would like be sentenced to much less. After the prosecution finished its nearly Twohour Presentation mr. Nelson, you may close for the defense. Reporter chauvin took off his mask as his attorney presented his Closing Arguments. A reasonable Police Officer, a reasonable officer, a reasonable Police Officer using those phrase at least 118 times, playing in clips from the Officers Body cameras, and arguing that they showed a clearer picture of the moments leading up to floyds death. The 9 minutes and 29 seconds ignores the previous 16 minutes and 59 seconds. Reporter attorney Eric Nelson argued that floyd was actively resisting as a crowd gathered. This was an authorized use of force. As unattractive as it may be. And this is reasonable doubt. These are officers doing their job in a highly stressful situation. Reporter the prosecution gave its rebuttal, arguing that floyd did not die because of Drug Use or an underlying Heart Condition. You were told, for example, that mr. Floyd died that mr. Floyd died because his heart was too big. And now having seen all the evidence, having heard all the evidence. You know the truth. And the truth of the matter is that the reason that George Floyd is dead is because mr. Chauvins heart was too small. Our thanks to nbcs Gabe Gutierrez. Lets bring in civil Rights Lawyer and former prosecutor, david henderson. And State Attorney for palm beach county, david aaronberg. Very good to have you both this morning. David henderson, did the state prove their case . I think the state proved their case, joe. I worry that the state didnt give a Closing Argument thats as good for the jury as it is for those of us who have been watching the case for these past few weeks. Normally, what you want to do with a Closing Argument is not marshal your evidence, so much as equip the jurors who are on your side to fight for you during deliberations. Now, its hard to predict the outcome of this case. I do not foresee an acquittal. I think youll see a conviction of some type. But when youve got three different charges on identical conduct, the jurors need to be informed about how they mace a choice between one charge and another, and all three charges. Handing the case over to them for deliberation without that type of guidance is like Handing Keys to the cars to a teenager without helping them understand what theyre supposed to do out there on the road. Whats the impact, david . What does that what goes on in the Jury Room when you dont give that specific guidance . You get confusion, joe . And thats why nelson stressed over and over again, go back there and read the charge, read the entire charge. When i printed out the preliminary charge in my printer, it comes out to about 12 pages. And its got all kinds of language thats really confusing, like depraved mind, which also carries a recklessness standard. But let me put it in perspective by saying this. This trial began with confusion between judge cahill, a senior judge, and a Minnesota Court of appeals, about whether or not chauvin could legal be charged with Thirddegree Murder. If it causes confusion for a judge and an appellate court, imagine what it does for 12 everyday people. So dave aaronberg, obviously, were waiting for the verdict. The possibility of an acquittal is there. What was the defenses best argument that could poke holes in what the prosecution was saying and lead to some sort of acquittal . Mika, one thing you learn quickly as a lawyer is that juris are notoriously unpredictable. I thought the state did an excellent job approving its case. And to grieve with david, i think theres no way that chauvin walks free when the verdict is read. But the Defense Lawyer just has to poke enough holes to get reasonable doubt. And i think that when it came to causation, they could have some hope there on the defense side. A lot of these cases are won and lost during jury selection. Youve got to weed out those jurors who have implicit biases against your case. If youre prosecutors, you dont want people who believe that Drug Addiction is a moral failing as opposed to a brain disease. Theyre the ones most likely to believe in the argument that George Floyd died because of a combination of drugs and health concerns. And the defense put on a wellcredentialed expert to say that the cause of death is undetermined. All It Takes is one juror to believe that means reasonable doubt and then all three counts are hung, because causation is a critical element in approving all three charges against Derek Chauvin. So i think Chauvins Lawyer knows hes not going to win this case. He just doesnt want to lose it. So david, if you tick through what the arguments were from Defense Yesterday, they go something like this. That Officer Chauvin felt he was in danger based on the crowd that was surrounding him. Weve all seen the video and pictures of that crowd, Filming Video and asking the officer to top killing the man on the ground. The carbon monoxide argument, which was shot down by experts in terms of Oxygen Saturation was normal for George Floyd. And the drugs in his system. So the defense tried to put all of these three layers of doubt in the minds of the jury. And the prosecution came back in its rebuttal and ticked through and reminded the jury of all the experts that came on and rebutted those, as well. We were talking in our last hour to danny cevallos, a Prosecutor And Attorney saying, what this feels like right now, youre a prosecutor yourself, to have made your case, thought you did a good job, but to have it in the hands of a jury, whats going through your mind . What goes through my mind is something i learned the first year i was practicing law. And that is a senior lawyer who is very smart told me he hated going to trial. Hated it altogether. I asked him why, and he said, because you can be right and you can still lose. So what the defense is doing would have been objectively speaking, an intelligent Trial Strategy before George Floyds death. I think that George Floyds death changes the rules for how you try these different types of cases. But when we make arguments about what the likely outcome is, theyre always historical arguments. Were saying, we think we know what the outcome will be here because of what weve seen in the past. And in the past, its unusually difficult to convict Police Officers for killing people, and its also unusually difficult to convict people for unintentional murders. You have both here. So what nelson is highlighting is a difficulty associated with making sure you dont have that one lone juror who hangs up the entire process. And theres no way of knowing how well he connected on that point. And thats exactly the Trepidation Weve heard from many people, from Reverend Sharpton to activists to people weve just talked about in this trial. Weve all seen the video. We feel like we know what happened because weve watched that 9 1 2 minutes. The prosecution put on a good case. But for all the reasons that david just laid out, weve seen this movie before. So a lot of people still holding their breath. We have seen this movie before. I mean, i believe look, i bring to this case my own biases. I probably wouldnt have been picked for the jury. But the thing that is most powerful for the prosecution is those nine minutes and 29 seconds of video. And thats the thing thats ultimately really difficult, i think, for the defense to get around. Thats why i do believe its difficult to imagine that chauvin would be acquitted on all charges, because he knelt on the Mans Neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. And i think this, really, its hard for me to imagine that that Wont Strike jurors as wrong, to some degree. The question is, to what degree. And you know, i think, i mean, Eric Nelson, i think, did a good job for his client. He did what he was supposed to do. He vigorously defended his client and tried to get him off. And thats his role and people shouldnt be mad at him for that doing his job. But i also thought the prosecution was quite effective, if you want to weigh the Expert Testimony on a scale, the prosecution has a lot more of it and i think it was higher quality and the other Big Plus for the prosecution was getting the Police Chief, the chief of the Minneapolis Police to testify that What Chauvin did was completely beyond the pale. I think that has to have an impact on the jury. Because its not every day you get the Police Chief to say, no, no, no, what my officer did was unacceptable and wrong and not what he not what he should have done. So i dont know how they get around that. But as our legal experts just told you, jurors are unpredictable. Weve all been wrong before. Yeah, juries are unpredictable. Weve all been wrong before. Yet Mike Barnicle, you look at the Defense Yesterday playing video from those nine and a half minutes, and it really undercuts the Defenses Argument that somehow this was a mob that was out of control and made Chauvin Fear for his Safety And Fear for his life. What you heard were people asking him to get off George Floyds neck, because it was obviously that he was slowly strangling him to death in front of everybody. You know, joe, that is one of the more interesting aspects of this trial. The videos that they kept showing over and over and over again. And you wonder what the impact those videos will have on the jury, now sitting 12 people alone in a room. And thats the ultimate definition of american justice. We think we know everything there is to know. Those of us who have followed this trial, everything there is to know about the death of George Floyd, but theres one thing we do not know, and thats the element of Human Nature involved now with 12 people sitting in a Jury Room, trying to figure out what it is that they saw and what they thought about what they saw. And dave aaronberg, what Joe Scarborough just referred to is something that struck me, as well. In all of the videos that they showed, the one striking thing, at least to me as an individual, was looking at Officer Chauvin during the course, off and on of those nine and a half minutes and hearing the crowd around them talking about, stop it, youre killing him and everything, that was his absolute seeming indifference to what he was doing. And im wondering if you, dave, as a prosecutor, youve sat there waiting to come in, what struck you about that video . Yeah, mike, i think it shows a depraved mind. Thats where the Thirddegree Murder charge comes in. I think the Thirddegree Murder charge could help chauvin in that it could avoid having him get convicted on the most serious charge. At the same time, i think it reduces the likelihood of a Hung Jury. Because that Thirddegree Murder charge is a compromise. And it sure seems to match what we saw on that video that day. You dont need to prove Felony Assault to prove Thirddegree Murder, like you would for Seconddegree Murder. You just have to show that chauvin committed an eminently dangerous act with a depraved mind. What we saw in that video was not just his knee on George Floyds neck for nine minutes. Not just his knee on George Floyds neck for up to three minutes after floyd had no pulse, but a smug look on his face with his hands in his pockets. Thats why i think the Thirddegree Murder charge will be very enticing for a jury. If that happens, that means prosecutors benefit, because less likely to have a Hung Jury. But on the other hand, it does make it a little tougher for prosecutors to get the conviction on the more serious Seconddegree Murder charge, which is punishable by up to 40 years in prison. Dave aaronberg, weve heard a lot of people talking rightly about that one juror, the two jurors that may just dismiss everything that theyve gotten, engage in some form of jury nullification. Im curious, when youre prosecuting a case, can you are usually pick up that one person, those two people that may be more difficult to get on your side for the prosecution and do you expect in this case, if we have that juror, and they come out and say that theyve got theyre deadlocked, do you expect the judge to say, thats nice, go back in and keep deliberating. Were going to have a resolution here. Joe, in a case this important and that took this long, the judge is going to require the jurors to keep deliberating. Hes not going to accept a Hung Jury on the first day, the second day. Hes going to make sure they stay at it until they can come up to no conclusion. You need all 12 jurors to be unanimous. And when it comes to a hung juror, its always possible. I think thats the only lifeline in this case. Joe, i do think that the most striking thing to me, to go back to what gene said, was the fact that Law Enforcement testified against one of their own. I think that to me is going to compel jurors like nothing else weve seen. That shocking image of the Police Chief testifying that this was murder. It was not due to a lack of training. How about the former Training Director who testified that chauvin knew better. He had extensive training and should have rendered aid. That Training Director has known chauvin for 20 years. They came up through the force together. So i think that moving forward, joe, if this is something new, if this trend continues, thats going to be the most lasting, most enduring, and most significant legacy of this case, where cops start testifying against Each Other. David henderson and dave aaronberg, thank you both very much for weighing in this morning. Were going to turn to politics now, where president biden held a second meeting with a bipartisan group of Lawmakers Yesterday about his 2 Trillion jobs and infrastructure proposal. I am prepared to compromise, prepared to see if we can do and what we can get together on. Ive noticed everybody is for infrastructure, the question is, whos going to pay for it . Thats what were going to try to work out today. Joining us now, one of the lawmakers who was in that meeting, independent Senator Angus King of maine. Senator, thanks so much. Its good to see you again. What do you like about the bill for the state of maine, especially. And where do you think the president where democrats and republicans can actually agree on . Well, what i like about the bill especially for the state of maine and many parts of the country is broadband. There was general consensus in the room that however you define infrastructure in 2021, broadband is Part Of it, because for a rural state, weve got 25 to 35 of our people who cant connect to telehealth, to remote school, or working from home. Thats a big deal. And i was delighted that that was a consensus. So where do we go, where did the meeting go . There was some agreement. There was agreement that we need an Infrastructure Bill. The disagreement oh, by the way, there was also agreement that it had to be paid for. It seems silly to have to say that. But everybody said, yeah, we have to pay for this somehow. So the question is, what is infrastructure . How do you define what goes into the category of the bill . And secondly, of course, how is it paid for. The president has put his proposal on the table and he asked me to moderate the meeting. I turned to Mitt Romney toward The End of the meeting and said, okay, the president has put his proposal out. I think you guys need to put something on the table yourselves. And romney readily agreed and said, thats what were working on. So Senator King, the level of cynicism at the prospects of a bipartisan agreement, obviously high. Many republicans are suggesting that the president just using them as a prop in the Oval Office again. How does the democratic plan and a republican Plan Meet in the middle if theres a big divergence, especially, on the Funding Side of this . Well, i think the key to what you just said, joe, is the word big. How big of a divergence is there . And is there some way to meet in the middle . Yeah, i mean, this is a tough case. Although, the president expressly said, im ready to compromise. He wasnt going to negotiate with himself and start lowering his promise or changing his Funding Proposal on the spot. But he said, im ready to compromise. And i hope that the republicans in the room heard that. Because i think thats an Opening And Theyve got to compromise, as well. The issue for the republicans is that the president has proposed the principal Funding Mechanism as a sort of snapback of the lowered corporate Income Tax rates that were passed in the trump tax cut. They went from 35 to 21 . The President S proposed taking it back up to 28 . The republicans made it pretty clear, thats not going to work for them. Maybe theres a number in between 21 and 28. Im not going to speculate on that now, but there were a lot of other discussions about how to pay for it. One of the suggestions i made is, there are billions of dollars that arent collected every year, because the irs doesnt have the wherewithal to go after tax cheats. So there are various options on the table and i think i mean, you know, im a perennial optimist, but there was a mood in the room, weve got to do this, we need to figure out how to do it, and i think the president genuinely wants to do it on a bipartisan basis rather than Ram It through on reconciliation or some other sort of simple majority proposal. But both sides have to come to the table. Right. Right. Right. So do you know one republican willing to raids taxes, corporate taxes from 21 to 25 . I dont know i dont want to the answer is yes. Ive heard discussion about numbers in between 21 and 25. Nobody has come out and said you use the word i want to, they dont want to, but i think its on the table and we just have to wait and see. I mean, if we end up with red lines and i was disturbed last week when some of the republicans said, you know, the corporate tax is a red line. Well, you cant really negotiate very well if theres a red line. And as i said at the beginning, the republicans have said, we dont want to raise corporate taxes. Okay, thats the President S proposal. Whats yours . And lets see if they come up with something thats in the ballpark, that is enough toward the president in terms of whats in the package and how to fund it that there can be a deal. If they come back with a Lowball Deal that really doesnt meet the needs of the country right now, then its not going to go anywhere. Im looking and hoping that we can have some genuine good oldfashioned negotiations. So Senator King, its willie geist. Good to see you this morning. Part of the criticism, also, is not just the raising of taxes, but as Mitch Mcconnell has said that, yes, were interested in infrastructure, but 2. 2 Trillion goes well beyond what most americans consider infrastructure. Do you believe that there are pieces of this proposed legislation that could be peeled away, perhaps, to entice some republicans into voting for it . Well, im not going to negotiate with myself, but, yes. I mean, that was part as i mentioned, there were really two major issues in the meeting. Whats infrastructure. And by the way, the Administration Isnt calling this an Infrastructure Bill anymore. Theyre calling it a jobs act, because there are provisions like longterm Care And Housing and others that arent traditionally highways, bridges, and that kind of thing. So, yeah, the two areas of negotiation are, whats in the package and how to pay for it. So senator, can you just speak to our audience about sort of the state of politics in the senate right now and congress more broadly. I think most americans now are of the view that republicans arent going to vote for anything at this point proposed by Joe Biden or democrats that reconciliation is the only way to get big things done. Youve been there for a while. How different is it today than youve seen in the past . Well, ill be honest with you, willie. I think its i think the next month or so is going to tell the tale. And the question for me is, are there republicans going to negotiate and realize that they dont control the senate, they dont control the house, they dont control the presidency, or are they just going to say, no, were going to obstruct everything. And if they do that, the pressure on people like myself who have been very reluctant about ending the filibuster or using reconciliation to say, look, weve got get some things done for the american people starts to build. My belief is that the future of the filibuster is in Mitch Mcconnells hands. If its used as a total obstruction weapon, then i think its days are numbered. If its sort of the weapon thats in the Back Closet that you occasionally pull out in extreme situations and we can do some serious negotiation, i think its possible. I think this Infrastructure Bill is the perfect case to see whether the system can work. Because there is yes, there are Policy Provisions about whats in the bill. But its really about numbers. I mean, its really about, you know, whats the difference between 21 and 28 . Or whats the difference between 1. 2 Trillion or 1. 4 trillion . Its about numbers and thats where people ought to be able to negotiate. So the answer to your question is, i think its largely in the republicans hands. If theyre just going to say no to everything. Then the pressure builds to say, look, we cant this just doesnt work. Theres too much we need to do on behalf of the country. Senator angus king, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. Great to see you. And still ahead on morning joe, well speak with two more lawmakers. House majority whip Jim Clyburn and democratic senator Mazie Hirono will be our guests. Youre watching morning joe. We will be right back. Youre watching morning joe. We will be right back. Ac Dc Back In Black the bowls are back. 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My team at Newday Usa is going to do everything we possibly can to make sure that veteran gets that loan. So youre a small business, or a big one. You were thriving, but then. Oh. Ah. Okay. Plan, pivot. How do you bounce back . You dont, you bounce forward, with serious and reliable internet. Powered by the largest Gig Speed Network in america. But is it secure . Sure its secure. And even if the power goes down, your connection doesnt. So how do i do this . You dont do this. We do this, together. Bounce forward, with comcast business. The federal government is reviewing a quote, handful of potential cases of severe Side Effects from the Johnson Johnson Vaccine, in addition to those that led to a pause in its use. Cdc director dr. Rochelle walensky said that the number was not, quote, overwhelming and that the Cdc And Fda are currently reviewing the reports. U. S. Health regulators will present any additional cases that have been confirmed at a meeting of the Advisory Committee On Immunization Practices this friday. We learned the cause of death for the Police Officer who died on the attack on the capitol. According to washingtons chief Medical Examiner, officer Brian Sicknick died of Natural Causes. The autopsy revealed the 42yearold suffered two strokes caused by a blood clot. The Medical Examiner did tell the Washington Post there was no evidence of internal or external injuries to officer sicknick, but that, quote, all that transpired played a role in his condition, meaning all that transpired on January 6th. Capitol police said that sicknick returned to the office after the attack and collapsed before dying hours later. In a statement, Capitol Police said they accept the findings, but, quote, this does not change the fact that officer Brian Sicknick died in the line of duty, courageously defending congress and the capitol. Mike barnicle, there were two men arrested and charged with assault for using Bear Spray on officer sicknick. They say now, its likely that the Justice Department will not charge them with homicide, because it appears to be Natural Causes. But Natural Causes brought on by the events of January 6th. Yeah, willie, it will be difficult, if not impossible or improbable to charge either of the two men with a Homicide Count on officer sicknicks death. But one thing we do know for sure, officer Brian Sicknick was attacked and assaulted on January 6th. And anything going further legally is going to have to take that into account. I mean, the Bear Spray assault. Who knows what happened after that. I mean, who knows internally in Brian Sicknick what happened after that. So the case will go forward on the assault charges, i assume, but it will be impossible to register Homicide Charges against the two. We are learning new details about the Mass Shooting that took place last week at a Fedex Facility in indianapolis. A prosecutor in the case said yesterday that the 19yearold Gunman never appeared before a judge for a hearing under indianas Red Flag law, even after his mother called police last year and raised alarms about his Mental Health. Authorities did not seek such a hearing, because they did not have enough time under the laws restrictions to definitively demonstrate the Shooters Propensity for suicidal thoughts, something they would have needed to done to convince a judge he should not be allowed to possess a gun. A lot being said right there. In the Mental Health world, it is very hard to put together the pieces of information of exactly how someone is suffering and exactly what that suffering looks like. So that right there seemed to be slowing things down there. But the heartbreaking fact is that this is a mother what that reached out for help, knowing that her son was a danger. Yeah, absolutely. And this is just such a tragic illustration of the fact that, yes, you need laws, but if the laws are not going to be enforced or enforceable, then theyre meaningless. So, here, you have a Red Flag law. You have a mother who did absolutely everything she could. You have the police confiscating a weapon based on the evidence that the mother gave them. Yet, the young man is able to go on by to, you know, assault weapons, because No One No One has acted in accordance with laws that already exist. And thats more than frustrating, thats deliberate, right . We are not serious about even enforcing the inadequate laws we have now, much less enacting a reasonable Gun Control laws. And if we dont, and what would be the meaning of new reasonable Gun Safety laws if were not going to enforce them. If were not going to have mechanisms for enforcing them. Its just, it would be ridiculous if it were not so tragic. Coming up, our next guest is calling howard Universitys Decision to dissolve its Classics Department, quote, a spiritual catastrophe. Thats next on morning joe. L. Ats next on morning joe. [ Crowd Cheering ] [ Engine Revving ] [ Race Light Countdown ] when you save money with allstate you feel like youre winning. Safe drivers save 40 saving is easy when youre in good hands. Allstate. Click or call for a quote today. Trelegy for copd. Birds flyin high, you know how i feel. Breeze drifting on by you know how i feel. Its a new dawn. If youve been taking copd sitting down, its time to make a stand. Start a new day with trelegy. No oncedaily Copd Medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. It also helps prevent future flareups. Trelegy wont replace a Rescue Inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a Heart Condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, Mouth Or Tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or Eye Pain occur. Take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. Ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy. And save at trelegy. Com. Now to a move taken yesterday by Howard University that poses a big cause for concern for our next guest. The university announced it is shutting down its classic Studies Department as Part Of, quote, prioritization efforts. It is currently the only historically black College Or University with such a department. In response, harvard universitys cornel West And Author and educator, Jeremy Tate, cowrote an Opinion Piece for the Washington Post writing, Howard Universitys removal of classics a spiritual catastrophe. Quote, academias continual campaign to Disregard Or Neglect the classics is a sign of spiritual decay, moral decline, and a deep intellectual narrowness running amok in american culture. Those who commit this terrible Act Treat western civilization as either irrelevant and not worthy of prioritization or as harmful and worthy only of condemnation. To end this spiritual catastrophe, we must restore true education, mobilizing all of the intellectual and moral resources we can to create Human Beings of courage, vision, and civic virtue. This classical approach is united to the black experience. It recognizes that The End and aim of education is really the anthem of black people, which is to lift every voice. That means to find your voice, not an echo or an imitation of others, but you cant find your voice without being grounded in tradition, grounded in legacies, grounded in heritages, engaging with the classics, and with our civilizational heritage is the means to finding our true voice. It is how we become our full selves, spiritually free and morally great. And Jeremy Tate joins us now, along with professor at princeton university, Eddie Glaude Jr. Thank you both for being with us this morning. Jeremy, this is actually Something Eddie and i have been talking about for some time. How you balance the best of things and also the most damaging of legacies. Im curious. Have you and Cornel West been talking about this issue for some time. This all started, we had dr. West on our podcast, the anchor podcast, and really stirred up a conversation that people who may not see eyetoeye politically see a ton of value to this tradition. And theres an attack right now against this tradition, schools canceling classics like the odyssey. What was really amazing to me was the way students at Howard University when word broke that the Classics Department was going to be eliminated, they really rallied on twitter and other social platforms to make sure this wouldnt happen. And theres a line here. Students must be challenged. Can they confront the fact that Human Existence is not easily divided into good and evil, but filled with complexity, nuance and ambiguity. Talk about that and how that question doesnt just hang over Howard University, but hangs over all american universities. You know, theres a crisis right now joe, i believe in mainstream american education. The last couple of years i was a teacher in the public school, i was ask students on the first day of class, why are we here, whats The Point. And they would say almost in unison, to get a better job. And this is just kind of bland utilitarianism, which has taken over mainstream american education. I would write on the board then what plato said, that the object of education is actually to teach us to love what is beautiful. That whole concept is foreign to most students going through our k12 system. Its all about credentialing, its all about College And Career readiness, its all about getting a better job. We have lost the Heart And Soul of education, which is fundamentally about what it means to be human. Our friend, Cornel West, couldnt be on today, but Eddie Glaude, who is a dear friend of cornells, is on. Eddie, this oped would likely surprise some readers of the Washington Post, seeing Cornel West writing this. I take it it doesnt surprise you. Not at all. Not at all. Theres a sense in which Cornel West, i dont want to speak for my dear friend, joe, is deeply committed to the Depth And Power of traditions. He reads his t. S. Eliot. He knows his matthew arnold. He understands, as he invoked, i could hear his language in the oped, as he invoked the philosopher Hans Gotmer about the importance of tradition shaping us. This is a sense in which he wants to emphasize this notion of education as character formation. This is an echo of Dubois Response to booker t. Washington and his insistence on vocational education, and dubois saying, no, we need to educate the fullness of who we are, so we can imagine ourselves in the most expansive of terms. But i see a tension in the oped, i read it over and over again. The tension is this, as the former president of the academy of religion, ive seen the closure of religion departments. As the chair of africanamerican studies, ive seen the defunding of africanamerican Studies Departments, womens Studies Departments, latino Studies Departments and the like. What we see is this prioritization has everything to do with an allout assault on the humanities. What is it about this language of the classics and western civilization that attracts your Attention And Dr. Wests attention, because it may very well be that classics is just simply a Part Of this assault on the humanities, if that makes sense. The time i spent in teachers rooms during Lunch Debating Curriculum and what books we should be putting in front of our students should be a wellintentioned aim has ended up that students dont get much of any tradition at all. I think its been such a concern to not offend students in any way about pushing any western European Cultures over others. This is why i launched the clt as an alternative to the sat and act. College board is the main driver in the american education, but theres no substance, no soul. Theres an older, richer version of education that was all about passing down the best of what has been thought and said has been almost entirely lost. Theres no Substance Or Soul to it anymore. So i believe and i think dr. West has been a great megaphone for saying, we cant cancel the classics. We cant cancel homer and the odyssey, these texts that have been fundamental to shaping some of the best ideas in western civilization. Eddie, lets bring it up a couple of hundred of years from homer and socrates and talk a little bit about to kill a mockingbird and the adventures of huckleberry finn, books that have been pulled out of school because it makes kids uncomfortable. There are words that do make a lot of my daughters classmates uncomfortable. How do we handle that, grapple with that, that there are words in the book that were written 150 years ago that do make us uncomfortable in 2021, but the story at the core of those Books Something thats worth reading . Yeah, we have to understand that. We have to confront the complexity of Human Beings, of the human journey. It makes no sense to redact the nword out of twain. That would be silly to me. It makes no sense to kind of try to bury the reality of who we are. Joe and i and willie, you and i have been talking about this and mika, weve been talking about this for a while. We have to deal with the complexity of who we are. We cant hide our ugliness. We have to confront it. We have to confront it honestly. And to do so doesnt mean that we have to lift up some idealized version of western civilization. I know it was in your subtitle of saving freedom, but often times western civilization has been a euphemism for white civilization. But we have to confront who we are. That doesnt mean sticking your head in the sand when we confront some of the ugliness what weve done. That ugliness will open up imagining ourselves differently. 100 . Western civilization in the past has been defined by white civilization. But one of the things that i love about this oped is it explains, it is expansive. Were all a Part Of it. And you know, what i also eddie, something that weve been talking about for years now, looking at the founding fathers, looking at washington, looking at jefferson, looking at madison, looking at these people who were slave owners, who did things, abhorrent by todays standards, i would say abhorrent by any days standards. You try to figure out how to balance that with where we are today and realize that king, what did king do . He used the words of thomas jefferson just like fred rig douglas used the words of thomas jefferson and more people have used the words of thomas jefferson as both a sword and as a shield for freedom. And those words probably liberated more people globally than any other words ever produced at any political document and yet he was a slave owner, he wrote abhorrent things in his life and he did abhorrent things if his life and the challenge is how do we use those words, how do we use those ideas like Martin Luther King did in his letter from Birmingham Jail to liberate even more people. You know, joe, how do we come to possess our inheritance as our own. Not to have it stuffed down our throats, but to assess it and understand it and possess it as mine. How do i possess walt whitman, and he thought i didnt have the capacity to be a citizen. How do i understand his insight and failures, and how do we take possession of our inheritance as our own. You cant read tony morris, a Classics Department, without understanding how important the classics were to her literary imagination. This is whether this is ripitities or conflict in beloved, you cant read Derek Wal Cot unless you understand the illyad and the but how do we possess our inheritance as our own so we could imagine ourselves more justly and virtuously, thats the key. And Cornell And Jeremy wrote yesterday, the classics critical to frederick douglass, critical to so many people through the years. As a foundation of their thought. There is no way you can say that the western classical tradition of civilization is unimportant or uninteresting or irrelevant to people not only in this country but to people around the world. And you think of, you know, people in right now in hong kong, for example, who are having their liberties taken away and who are thinking in those classical terms, jefferson and jeffersons and antiseedents and using that sort of ideas, agains, as you said, as their Sword And Shield against oppression. And you think of people around the world who respond to these ideas and who developed them, who developed them further, that is the other key. Dr. King didnt only absorb the western classical tradition, but he reshaped it and reused it for the purposes of his day and the needs of his day. And it is also a living tradition, it is not its not a bunch of dead white guys. And hasnt been for a long time. You know, Mike Barnicle, i remember having an ed gordon read on when we had Tom Ricks and shes a Pulitzer Prize Winner who wrote about the hemmings of monticello. And i remember asking her how to separate thomas Jeffersons Life with these ideals that have freed and liberated more people over the centuries than any other words, any other document and she said, and i know both Tom Ricks and i were taken aback, she said, well im sorry, what else do you want from a politician . As far as on the political side of things, to create language, to create a legacy that frees people two centuries later. You know, joe, this is first of all, this is a really interesting discussion and the piece in the Post Oped Section that was really interesting and jeremy alluded to ittier when he talks about addressing classes when he was teaching public school. And the objective of the students would be well were here to get a better job. And they talked about in the piece the concept of schooling as opposed to education. And there is one line in the oped that jumps out at you, schooling is not education, because education is, as you just outlined, joe, is the search for who you are. And studying the classics, no matter how old we think they are and no matter how misunderstood they might be, reading them as young students in high school or special in college connect you through the years to driezer, to despass os and to kill a mockingbird and it is aware of who you are and who you want to be than just teaching to the test. And jeremy if you could speak to that for a brief while. The teaching to the test concept, doesnt that reaffirm schooling is not education . You know, at clt we say we dont necessarily like the reality that tests drive, dictate curriculum, what happens in the classroom but it is reality. And as long as it is a reality, he want to put students in front of things that are worthy of their time and attention. One of my dear friends, dr. Annika fratford is a professor at a university and her people thought to have access to this tradition and it breaks her heart that some mainstream educators wanted to take that away again. I think this is a crucial conversation and this is the right time to be having it. Jeremy tate, thank you. He is founder and Chief Executive officer of the classic learning test, professor Eddie Glaude and Mike Barnicle and eugene robinson. And were very excited. Speaking of anet, she has a book coming out and were going to have here on juneteenth so well have her on in may. Still ahead, did Congresswoman Maxine waters hurt her own cause by speaking out about the Derek Chauvin trial. Plus remembering Walter Mondale, the statesman who forever changed the office of the u. S. Vice presidency. And check out all of the great content we have going at know your value. Com. Are you so tired of hours and hours on zoom, we have seven ways to cope with Zoom Fatigue and in our special series leveling up, Keisha Boyd gives us great tips on how to read a rook. Were back in just two minutes with a packed 8 00 a. M. Hour. 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You were thriving, but then. Oh. Ah. Okay. Plan, pivot. How do you bounce back . You dont, you bounce forward, with serious and reliable internet. Powered by the largest Gig Speed Network in america. But is it secure . Sure its secure. And even if the power goes down, your connection doesnt. So how do i do this . You dont do this. We do this, together. Bounce forward, with comcast business. George bush of the state of the texas has received for Vice President of the united states, 489 votes. [ applause ] Walter F. Mondale of the state of minnesota has received 49 votes. [ applause ] then Vice President Walter Mondale finding the humor with Speaker Tip oneal in the Landslide Defeat in the 1980 president ial election. In just a moment, were going to speak with president ial Historian Michael Beschloss about the legacy of the former Vice President who passed away yesterday at the age of 93. Good Morning And Welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, april 20th, along with joe, willie and me, we have former chairman of the republican national committee, now an msnbc Political Analyst michael steele. Good to have you with us, michael. Were going to begin with the case against former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd. Now in the hands of a sequestered jury. The panel of six white and six black or multiracial jurors began deliberating at 4 00 Central Time yesterday and ended the day without a verdict following hours of Closing And Rebuttal arguments. What the defendant did to George Floyd killed him. Make no mistake, this is not a prosecution of the police. This is a prosecution of the defendant. And there is nothing worse for a good place than a bad police who doesnt follow the rules, who doesnt follow procedure, who doesnt follow training. He called out to George Floyd, he said you cant win. You cant win. And George Floyd replied, im not trying to win. Im not trying to win. Im scared. But the defendant, the defendant was trying to win. He wasnt going to be told what to do. He wasnt going to take a challenge to his authority. He was trying to win. And George Floyd paid for it with his life. I submission to you that the state has failed to meet its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You have to be convinced that the defendants actions caused the death of mr. Floyd. Actions that happened before mr. Floyd was arrested, that had nothing to do with Officer Chauvins activities are not the natural consequences of the defendants actions. Were there other contributing factors that were not the natural result of mr. Chauvins acts . The drug ingestion, all right. The bad heart, the diseased heart, the hypertension, all of these things existed before mr. Chauvin arrived. You were told for example that mr. Floyd died, that mr. Floyd died because his heart was too big. You heard that testimony. And now having seen all of the evidence, having heard allst all of the evidence, you know the truth, and the truth of the matter is that the reason George Floyd is dead is because mr. Chauvins heart was too small. Willie, you never know what is going to happen when the juries go in and begin deliberating, never. For people that have been through that process. Many come out of the Jury Room and that experience a bit shaken at times by all that it taken in. There all of the prejudices all of the assumptions with no basis in law, that is, though, the system that if you have a jury of 12 people, that may happen. All that said, yesterday seemed to be straightforward as this entire case has been. It was the defense was scrambling trying to blame Everybody And Everything and even the judge at The End when he gave them Jury Instructions said basically mr. Chauvin, he owned what happened to this person regardless of how he found him. The fact that the other causes contributed to his death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability, which is very important jury instruction. It is. For sure. And what we heard from the Defense Yesterday is what weve heard throughout this trial which is the Sort Offence illary factors, talking about Carbon Monoxide Poisoning and talking about the drugs in there Floyds System and the crowd that surrounded the officers and George Floyd as being threatening somehow. The prosecution came out and said here is a picture of the crowd and you tell me if you think this group of people is threatening or concerned that a man is being killed. And we heard what is unique about this case is weve all seen what happened. We have seen it again and again and the world has seen what happened so at The End of the day, the prosecution asks the jury to believe its eyes. Youve seen the video, believe your eyes said juriy blackwell, the prosecutor there. Lets bring in former brooklyn new York Attorney Charles Coleman and danny cevallos. Do you feel that the prosecution did everything it needed to do. You dont know what kind of doubt is in the mind of a juror, but did the prosecution make its case . Good morning, willie. I think that the prosecution absolutely did. As i expected, they led with the theme around common sense, trusting your eyes, so sort of referring to what the jury had already seen in terms of the video and all of the evidence that has been laid out in front of them. Of course, they spoke to all of the technical elements necessary in order to satisfy each piece of what the charges actually entail. But at The End of the day, i think youre correct and joe as well in the facts that theyve made it very clear and straightforward and simple for the jury in terms of making a decision and as a prosecutor, that is exactly what you want to do. You want to make it as clear and straightforward and simple as for the jury as possible. And i think they humanized George Floyd which is something that i expected but as you saw in the clip to the segment, one of the other things that they did was they isolated Derek Chauvin, they isolated him as a Police Officer instead of being where the whole Police Department is on trial, where there are people in the jury who are sympathetic to police, they might have a problem convicting Derek Chauvin and what they did in that moment is they separated Derek Chauvin from police and said listen, police are not on trial, Derek Chauvin is not in this case represented of police and because of that, we dont want you to basically make that association in a way that might be challenging for some of the jurors. So isolating him in that way and humanizing George Floyd allowed them to be emotional and feelingbased Summation And Argument that surrounded the technical evidence that they had already put in front of the jury about the elements of each crime. And danny, we heard from the prosecutor, this is a Propolice Prosecution because they argue an officer like Derek Chauvin makes all police look bad. How do you think that plays into it when they talk about the role of police more broadly in the country to a jury if you have a sympathetic juror to police for example. This is a very good strategy by the prosecution. Dont put the entire Police Department on trial. Isolate one of them and say, look, this was a rogue actor, generally were not trying the Police Department of minneapolis, were not trying police throughout the country. Were not trying Law Enforcement. Just focus on what this Rogue Officer did and then you will not be shouldering the additional burden of looking at whether or not Law Enforcement in the country needs to change or something like that. That is not the issue here and the prosecution wisely stayed away from that. And the other reason they sayed afay from it were selfpreservation. They dont want to put them on trial for this case and create a rip in future cases. Danny, im curious what you thought about the amount of video that was played by the defense almost trying to sort of change the perception that the video which is engraved in so many peoples minds, so traumatizing, but also video of the crowds and painting the crowds as sort of dangerous throng when there are like two people on a corner saying can you stop killing that guy. I mean, sometimes it just didnt match up to what they were saying it appeared. I had to wonder if the Prosecution Team on a break, the break that the judge imposed midway through the Defense Closing got into their Side Room and looked at Each Other and said did he just play our own video. They must have been thrilled. Because that could only have helped the prosecution. Although im not second guessing the defense. They must have needed some evidence in that video that they needed to get before the jury. And you notice they only picked video or mostly picked video that doesnt show Derek Chauvins knee on the back of George Floyds neck. But video has audio and you could hear in the background George Floyd pleading for his life. You could hear bystanders showing their concern. So that was a decision that carried a lot of risk, but the defense must have felt it was warranted given the circumstances. Danny cevallos and Charles Coleman, thank you very much for being on this morning. And still ahead, remembering Walter Mondale. Michael beschloss on the Life And Legacy of the 42nd Vice President. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Well be right back. Limu Emu Doug Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Thank you hey, hey, no, no limu, no limu only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. My nunormal . Fewer asthma attacks with nucala. A oncemonthly addon injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. Nucala reduces eosinophils, a key cause of severe asthma. Nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. Allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, Tongue Or Trouble breathing. Infections that can cause shingles have occurred. Dont stop steroids unless told by your doctor. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. May cause headache, Injection Site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. Ask your doctor about nucala. Find your nunormal with nucala. My plaque psoriasis. The itching. The burning. The stinging. 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Former Vice President and liberal icon Walter Mondale has died at the age of 93. He served as senator for minnesota, president Jimmy Carters Vice President and ran as the democratic candidate for president in 1984. Nbcs Kevin Tibbles has a look back at his Life And Legacy. Walter mondale changed the face of american politics. Shattering the Glass Ceiling by picking Geraldine Ferrero as his Running Mate in 1984. Picked someone who i thought would make a superb Vice President or if necessary a president. When mondale ran for president , he been in democratic politics for nearly three decked, including 12 years in the senate and four as Jimmy Carters Vice President. In the primaries, mondale battled Colorado Senator Gary Hart who Ran On New Ideas in a Debate Mondale fought back with a Fast Food Chain slogan. Im reminded of that add, wheres the beef. The Fall Campaign against Ronald Reagan was an uphill fight, challenging a popular incumbent at a time of peace and prosperity. Mr. Reagan will Raise Taxes and so will i. He wont tell you, i just did. It was intended as candor, but was seen as a blunder. Mondale got a glimmer of hope when Reagans Age became an issue. In a Debate Reagan buried those doubts and mondales hopes. Im not going to exploit for political purposes my Opponents Youth and inexperience. Mondale lost in a historic landslide. All of the states colored in blue are rond reagan states. He wouldnt his Home State and district of columbia. He became a party elder, serving as u. S. Ambassador to japan. But in 2002, mondale replaced minnesota democratic Senator Paul Wellstone on the ballot after wellstone was killed in a Plane Crash just 11 days before election day. He narrowly lost his last hoorah. Mondales wife of 59 years died in 2014. They had two sons and a daughter who died of Brain Cancer in 2011. Walter Fritz Mondale once said he loved public life and always looked for ways to serve. Ken tibbles, Nbc News. Lets bring in author and Nbc News president ial Historian Michael Beschloss. Michael, thank you so much for being with us. Al gore said of Walter Mondale, you could divide Vice President s into two categories throughout american history, those who came before Walter Mondale, and those who came after. He redefined and shaped the dimensions of that job. He did it and you know the where that came from, joe, im sure you know the story, that Hubert Humphrey, a grave liberal senator then served for four years of Torture Nur Lyndon Johnson and he would say a want a Vice President that is so loyal ill clean this up for Ourel Gantz Audience who is so loyal loyal that Hell Kiss my rear end in macys window. So humphrey went to mondale and said you should be Vice President with carter if he asks you. But dont do it what i do, basically abase myself to the president. Make a deal with carter that if youre Vice President , youre going to be given serious responsibilities, youll have Np Office in the west wing, your staff will report both to the president and the Vice President , and the result was that, as Jimmy Carter will say to this day, mondale was he thinks not only the best Vice President in american history, but probably the most powerful and i think that is pretty close to being true. And that speaks, said much not only of Walter Mondale, but also Jimmy Carter in reading through some of dr. Brzezinskis diaries, you find just how patient of a man Jimmy Carter can be with some of those who are under him. Im sorry, mika, it is the truth. Okay. But carter was a Trend Setter in allowing this to happen. He was president , after all, right . That is exactly right. And they made this deal with Carter And Carter was impressed when mondale came down to plains, summer of 1976, that mondale, who he had thought of as this nice guy was wondering how strong he was, very impressed that mondale came in and said this is what i want. But he had this odd attitude toward having been Vice President. I knew him over the years, Walter Mondale, and i remember early on, this must have been 10 or 15 years ago, sent him money email, saying dear mr. Vice president , and he said, call me fritz, nobody wants to be called Vice President. You watch these clips that ive been playing this morning of Walter Mondale, and with Ronald Reagan in particular, and it is such a snapshot of how different things were. If you watch that clip that we just showed in Kevin Tibbles piece from the debate, where mondale gives a Hearty Laugh at the line about not exposing his youth and inexperience. If you look at the clip at the top of the show, where mondale in 1981 is presiding over the senate and reading through the electoral votes and announcing his own landslide lost where they lost 44 states in 1980 and hes kind of smiling and turns to Tip Oneill and said it is a landslide and gets a Standing Ovation in the senate from both sides of the aisle. You contrast that to the way that the senate is today and think about January 6th, the way we went through that election, my goodness what a different time. It was a different time. I had lunch with mondale two days after the day that Donald Trump won the election in 2016 and as you remember minnesota was so close, even two days later they thought it might still go to Donald Trump which it did not narrowly. Mondale couldnt believe the state of Hubert Humphrey and himself and Gene Mccarthy and orville freeman, that democratic Farmer Labor Tradition could come to Donald Trump, it almost did that year and it almost did as you know last year. Former president Jimmy Carter released this statement reading in part, i mourn the Passing Of My Dear friend Walter Mondale, who i consider the best Vice President in our countrys history. During our administration, fritz used his political skill and personal integrity to transform the Vice Presidency into a dynamic and policy Driving Force that had never been seen before and still exists today. And of course that is something that i spoke with Chris Matthews Last Night, michael, and chris worked inside of the carter White House and he said unlike past Vice President s, he wasnt shoved off into the old executive office building, he was in the west wing, his staff was in the west wing, and Chris Matthews said i witnessed this firsthand, mondale was the first Vice President to have an office in the west wing, the first to have a staff working on a daily basis with that of the president himself, this made the former u. S. Senator from minnesota The First Modern Vice President to spend his tenure as a Functioning Member of the Chief Executives governing and political team. And he was that guy and of course he brought in also his midwest liberal values to every debate. Yeah, that is true. And the other thing is that mondale is sometimes seen, we love his graciousness, and humor, but he was a tough guy beneath all of that. For instance, in 1979 Jimmy Carter gave this famous referred to as the Mill Ace Speech and doubt about leadership including his own and he fired half of the cabinet and was mondale was so upset by this that privately he talked to aides about resigning the presidency or refusing to run with carter the next year in 1980. And two things that we remember him for, 1984 as a president ial candidate, were just seeing the image on the screen, he chose Geraldine Ferrero, he did it because he was a strong believer in trying to help women but also the Poll Numbers shown him by his aides said we think you only do what is easy and you dont take risks, he felt that this would be as he said an exciting choice. And the other thing, at that convention when he said in his acceptance speech, President Reagan and i will both Raise Taxes, he wont tell you, i just did. That is a reaction to many people, including gary heart saying Walter Mondale is going to tell everybody what they like to hear, that was not at the center of the man. Michael beschloss, thank you for being on this morning. And Coming Up, the third Ranking Democrat in the house Jim Clyburn is our guest. Also with us senator Mazie Hirono of hawaii. Morning joe is back in a moment. Morning joe is back ina moment we need to reduce plastic waste in the environment. Thats why at Americas Beverage companies, our bottles are made to be remade. Not all plastic is the same. Were carefully designing our bottles to be One Hundred percent recyclable, including the caps. Theyre collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. That completes the circle, and reduces plastic waste. Please help us get every bottle back. Youre strong. You power through chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month,. Each lasting 4 hours or more. 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Everyday people taking on the corporate special interests. And winning. But now, the for the people act stands on the brink of becoming law. Ensuring accurate elections. Ironclad ethics rules to crack down on political selfdealing. A ban on dark money. And finally reducing corporate money in our politics. To restore our faith in government. Because its time. For the people to win. Cyber attacks are relentlessly advancing. To end them, cybereason built a cyber Security Solution so advanced. It can end Attacks Today on computers, mobile devices, servers and the cloud. And deliver futureready protection, keeping you sharp for tomorrow. Join us, the defenders, in our mission. Cybereason. End cyber attacks. From endpoints to everywhere. The baltimore Vaccine Plant that last month botched a batch of Johnson Johnson Vaccine by accidentally mixing it with astrazeneca is suspending production of new doses. They asked them to stop manufacturing after an inspection of the facility last week and now the company is the focus of a new investigation by the select subcommittee on the coronavirus crisis. And joining us now is the chair of the Subcommittee Majority Whip Jim Clyburn. Great to have you back on the show. Could we start right there and what is going on with that facility, what happened, what do we know about the potential of it happening again elsewhere . A fluke, what could you tell us . Well thank you very much for having me this morning. You know, we have been looking at this company for a while because we thought that there is some kind of insider dealings going on. A former administrator with this company was working in the Trump Administration and it seems as if this nearly 700 Million contract was something just water to them because of those relationships rather than because of their abilities to do anything, because they had been cited several times before for failing to fulfill requirements under the government contract. And as just mentioned, several weeks ago they mixed up Astrazeneca And J J Stuff and had to throw out just millions of vaccines. So we are we were concerned about that. Then we found this relationship. So were asking them to answer some questions because it seems as if theyre illprepared for the work that theyre doing and this, to us, is just too important. This pandemic is something that we have to get beyond and we cannot have political insider dealings driving these vaccines. Theyve got to be coming from places where people know what theyre doing and theyre there for the right reasons. We just dont think this company is doing it for the right reasons. Okay, so if you could explain that part a little bit more to me. Are you saying that this is a company that the Trump Administration sort of brought into the fold . And its not appropriate for dealing with the crisis . This is exactly what it looks like to us, you may recall kodak got a 700 Million award from the Trump Administration, now we know them for making good cameras, you mean you dont have a camera if you dont have a Kodak Camera back in my childhood. But then with absolutely no Track Record in this field. So when we got involved, it topped it. We stopped them from consummating that contract. Now this time it is a little bit after the fact. But we are getting involved because it looks as if this company is something akin to what was going on with kodak several months ago. Congressman, it is willie geist, well keep an eye on the hearing and the investigation. Want to ask you what weve witnessed in minneapolis. The jury in the Derek Chauvin Murder Trial will continue their deliberations today. What did you make of the prosecution and the Defense Yesterday and what is your message to the country that is on edge as it waits for this decision . Well as you know, im a native, all of my 80 years have been spent in in the state of South Carolina. And these kinds of trials, we have a long history of it. Particularly interested in the trial that took place as you know with the socalled emanuel nine. And if you remember, the family stepped up and there was not one single window broken in South Carolina during that time. We believe that we ought to let the Process Work and respond to the result. I dont want to anticipate what may or may not happen with the jury. I keep my finger crossed and my prayers to myself. But i pray that we will have a verdict that justified what occurred. And that to me, of course, is believing what my eyes saw. The grace shown by the families in charleston was extraordinary. Even in the days immediately after the shooting. Your Colleague Maxine waters has drawn attention with her comments the other night while she said while in the streets in brooklyn, stay on the street, get more confrontational. Some of your republican colleagues have called for her to be censured privately, some democrats wish she hadnt put it that way she has explained that she meant in terms of social justice and the civil Rights Movement to be confrontational with the justice system. But we have said through the trump years that Words Matter and people may interpret them a different way. What do you make of her comments . Well i make of her comments exactly what she explained last evening. Maxine and i interact a whole lot. We talk a lot and, you know, last month the city of Columbia Mem or ated my last commemorated my last conviction in the case of South Carolina, that is a Landmark Case that came about because we were challenging the system with a petition. Now maxine would talk about petitioning for redress and she used a word that a lot of people planned upon. And the matter of the Fact Mo brooks said much worse stuff than that just minutes before the insurrection and i dont remember mccarthy saying one single word about that. So if hes going to bring forth a resolution, i would hope that he would bring a resolution regarding mo brooks as well. So we ought to let political speech be political speech and not bring it into the halls of the congress. If she said that on the floor, that is one thing. But both mo brooks said his outside, and maxine was not even in washington when she made those comments. All right, we have Nbc News Capitol Hill Correspondent and host of way too early kasie with us and she has a question. Congressman clyburn, good to see you. I would like to ask you about the big picture here as it relates to what weve seen in minneapolis because as this trial is unfolded, we saw another young black man killed at the hands of police just ten miles down the road from where the trial was taking place. We saw a little bit of hope after George Floyd was killed and there were some bipartisan discussions about police reform, but it seems like that has all stalled. Now that democrats control both the house and the senate do you see any way in which these laws could actually be changed . Yes, i do. I have great hope that senator tim scott from South Carolina and Congresswoman Karen Bass from california who have been working on this issue now for more than a year, i think that they are going to continue to work and get something done. I do believe that something must be done. We cannot continue to talk about this. We have to act upon it. We have to give the american people what conflict that we can through legislation to deal with this issue. I have a 26yearold Grandson and i could tell you, he lives across the street from me. Every time i miss seeing his automobile, i worry. About where that automobile is and where he is and what is going on with him. And this is got to stop. Too many parents, grandparents or are being distrustful of the system because the system seems to be Hell Bent on protecting bad actors. We all grew up saying one apple can ruin the whole barrel. We have to apply that principle to policing in this country. Get rid of these bad apples. Because if we dont, they are going to ruin a good profession which all of us should be supporting. Congressman, another issue in front of you in the congress right now is infrastructure and the plan of 2. 2 Trillion put forth by the biden administration, Mitch Mcconnell and republicans in the senate and the house have said it is a nonstarter, it costs too much and raises taxes and includes a broad definition of what infrastructure is. What are your hopes that that plan will get through. It seems unlikely to have a republican vote but what is your hope that it may pass through and help the state of South Carolina . I hope that this plan will pass through. Because, look, infrastructure in disrepair, highways need to be brought up to date, Water And Sewage need to be improved. Our school constructions have to start taking place here. And we better have affordable housing. And my goodness, we have reached The Point where if we dont have universal access to broadband, we are going to lose generations of children and we are going to really fail to just help with Health Care in this country. So the President Said hes open to compromise. He wanted a 28 Tax Rate for corporations, which is now at 21 , used to be at 35 . The republicans seem to want 25 , if the president is 28 , and theyre at 25 , maybe 26 or 27 is the way to go. But we need to do it and we need to pay for it. And i think there are other ways that we could pay for this. There are two things that i think need to be done if were going to get beyond the pandemic and bring people into the 21st century, we need to make permanent Child Tax Credit and pay for that and we need to have universal access to broadband and pay for that. We have a renewed form of infrastructure taking place in this country. We ought to do it and we ought to pay for it. Congressman Jim Clyburn, always great to see you. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. And up next, senator Mazie Hirono joins us ahead of Tomorrows Vote on her bill aimed at combatting the rise of hate crimes against asianamericans. Keep it right here on morning joe. Joe. Retirement income is complicated. As your broker, ive solved it. Thats great, carl. But we need something better. Thats easily adjustable has no penalties or advisory fee. And we can monitor to see that were on track. Like schwab intelligent income. Schwab introducing schwab intelligent income. A simple, modern way to pay yourself from your portfolio. Oh, thats cool. I mean, we dont have that. Schwab. A modern approach to wealth management. We made Usaa Insurance for veterans like martin. When a hailstorm hit, he needed his insurance to get it done right, right away. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Usaa spray, lift, skip, step. Swipe, lift, skip, step. Super, spin, still. Fresh kick, fly, still. Dry. Fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh. 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Bounce forward, with comcast business. The senate is preparing to vote tomorrow on legislation to address the rise in hate crimes against asianamericans. Put forward by Congresswoman Grace Meng of new york and senator Mazie Hirono of hawaii. The bill would direct the department of justice to accelerate the review of Covid19 Hate crimes and also give more support to local Law Enforcement to respond to violence against asianamericans and curb the use of language on the rise since the pandemic began last year. The White House has indicated it supports the hate crimes bill. A study last month found antiasian hate crimes rose by nearly 150 last year, in 16 of the largest u. S. Cities. And Senator Hirono joins us now. She is a member of both the armed Service And Judiciary committees and Shes Author of the new Memoir Heart of fire, an immigrant daughters journey. And mazy, the book and your story in it is incredible. Well get to that in just a moment. But first, i want to ask about this legislation, youre expecting it to pass, and if so how many republicans how many republicans can you get to support it . I think ill get enough to pass the bill with 60 votes. But if the first process, procedural vote it was 926. So im very hopeful and i have worked with susan collins and others to broaden the support for this bill. So it is very bipartisan and i am hopeful well get it passed. So explain what is in the bill . I gave the top Line Version of it. You did a really great job because this is a very noncontroversial bill. And you explained it perfectly. And what it does is it enables us to collect data on hate crimes and incidents because these crimes have very underreported. It requires or it enables us to reach out to the Aapi Community to encourage them to report these crimes and incidents so that we have a Data Base in which to make further decisions and take further actions if necessary. And what is really important i think is that this is a bill that enables the senate to stand up and say we abhor these kind of crimes and were going to take a position and were going to start the process of doing something about it. I think that message is so important to the Aapi Community, which is really traumatized right now. They feel under siege right now. I want to turn to your book, which it is a memoir and it is dedicated to your mother who left an abusive relationship by fleeing to hawaii from japan, leaving your little brother behind but bringing you. And then she had to deal with language difficulties and poverty and everything. The book is called heart on fire, and id like to explain the title first if you could. Heart on fire described my mother because she was a courageous Risk Taker who changed my life by bringing me to this country. Im a person who could clearly say that one person, my mom, changed my life. Because i was raised on a little Rice Farm with my grandparents and in a really rural Part Of japan and there i would have stayed had my mother not had the courage to totally remove us from the grass of my father who i never got to know and his family, who treated my mother like a slave. Senator hirono, it is willie geist, congratulations on the book, it is good to have you here this morning. Im curious what your story, your mothers story, the immigrant story teaches us about the way we treat immigrants today, how does it inform what you see in front of you in congress every day . Clearly my lived experience of being an immigrant, not knowing any english when i came here, how important it is for immigrants to have the kind of support that they need and in order to thrive in this country, Family Unity is so important as mentioned. My mother had to leave my younger brother who was too young to go to school. There was nobody in hawaii to take care of him. We did not know the trauma that the separation would cause him. So certainly i understand what happened to the thousands of children who are ripped from the arms of their parents by trump. And so these are all lived experiences, how important Health Care is because we had no Health Care and a lot of immigrants dont have Health Care. And so these experiences inform who i fight for and why. Senator hirono, it is kasie hunt, one thing Senator Hirono, its kasie hunt. One of the stories is that stood out in your book are stories you experienced not just as a woman but asian woman trying to run in your Home State of hawaii for office and once you arrived in the u. S. Senate and some of the other women, notably Senator Barbara Mikulski that you found there. Can you talk a little bit about what you had to do to push through the assumptions people made about you . I was the first asian american woman to get elected to the senate so my colleagues didnt know what to expect. The notion is that asian women in particular are quiet and cooperative and dont make waves, Et Cetera and sometimes that plays out in their response to me. Barbara is somebody i totally admire and were very good friends but there was a time when i had an exchange with her that showed me she really didnt know who i was and thats partly because i didnt speak up that much, although i was very determined in my heart. So when i wanted to be on the Appropriations Committee she chaired, she said maybe, if you really want to do that, im paraphrasing, you need to speak out more, and i did not exchange much on the floor then at the senate but there was an instance where i was in a group of democratic women in her hideaway, and i looked at her and said barbara, you dont know anything about me. You dont know what it took for me to get here. Since then, barbara and i, shes been so supportive. I know barbara likes the fact i speak out and basically i say whats on my minds. She likes that. Yes. Im sure she loves it. And as huge supporter of that and youre extremely direct. I think anybody who gets to know you goes, yes, shes very direct. Have you learned along the way, is that ever a liability your surprising directness . I love the exchange with Barbara Mikulski because shes also very direct. And the two of you are quite direct with Each Other in that exchange and thats a really gramt moment. But can it ever be a liability . I like to think of it as, mika, you talk about knowing your voice. Well, all of that, and for women, most of us have experienced life where people are have very low expectations of us or theyre saying youre not ready. I heard all of those things. To get to The Point where i can be more my complete self by really exercising my vocal cords, 2 makes me a complete fighter for the things i believe in. If its a liability, so be it. I need to be myself and at this point its a gift to be able to be myself. That is know your value right there. Everybody should read this book. This is incredible interview. Thank you for sharing these stories. The new memoir is heart of fire an immigrant daughters story. Senator Mazie Hirono, thank you so much and thank you to your mom for bringing us you. Up next, Vice President Walter Mondales last message. What the late statesman said in a Farewell Letter to staff about the future in a biden White House. Use. Test challenge ever. Governments in record debt; inflation rising and currencies falling. But ive seen centuries of rises and falls. I had a Love Affair with tulips once. Lived through the crash of 29 and early dotcom hype. Watched mortgages play the villain beside a true greek tragedy. And now here i am, with one companion thats been with me for millennia; hedging the risks you choose and those that choose you. The physical seam of a digital world, traded with a touch. My strongest ally and my closest asset. The gold standard, so to speak ; people call my future uncertain. 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Latuda was proven to significantly reduce Bipolar Depression symptoms, and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. Now im feeling connected. Empowered. Latuda is not for everyone. Call your doctor about unusual mood changes, behaviors or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. Elderly Dementia Patients on latuda have an increased risk of death or stroke. Call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be lifethreatening, or uncontrollable muscle movements as these may be permanent. These are not all the serious Side Effects. This is where i want to be. Talk to your doctor and ask if latuda could make the difference youve been looking for in your Bipolar Depression symptoms. This morning were remembering the legacy of Walter Fitz Mondale as he died in his home Last Night. In one of his final acts he wrote a farewell let to his staff thanking them for their years of working together. It reads this dear team, well, my time has come. Im eager to rejoin joan and eleanor. Before i let you go, i want to let you know how much you mean to me. Never has a public servant had a better group of people working at their sides. Together weve accomplished so much and i know you will keep up the good fight. Joe in the White House certainly helps. I always knew it would be okay if i arrived someplace and was greeted by one of you. My best to all of you, fritz. Walter mondale was 93 years old, and that letter is so again russ. So moving. So beautiful. It really is. And, willie, Walter Mondale was a great man but more importantly as you see in that lesht, he was a good man. He was. Weve heard that from both sides of the aisle in the last 12 hours or so since we got the news of his passing. He reshaped the presidency, but, boy, he had a long Life And Career before that. Grew up during the depression very poor. His father was a farmer, served in the army, went to Law School in the gi bill, became the Attorney General to minnesota, Vice President , ran for president. Everything we know about him after that. It was truly, joe, a great american life. A great american life and, kasie, a guy who love and respected what was on the other side of the aisle. Let us just pray one or two people that are in that chamber right now will look at Walter Mondales life and take it upon their shoulders to work with people who they may disagree with. Joe, i think thats an incredibly important point. Lets, of course, not forget Walter Mondales courage in terms of who he selected to run as his Vice President ial Running Mate as well. I think theres been a time in our history where the senate, in particular, was full of giants and i think we can all acknowledge weve been through a pretty difficult period and some of our leaders are not being as big as they should be right now. Heres hoping remembering his example inspires them a little bit. And that does it for us this morning. Stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. Hi, there, im stephanie ruhle, live at Msnbc Headquarters here in new York City. It is tuesday, april 20th. Right now the nation is awaiting a verdict in the Murder Trial of expolice Officer Derek Chauvin, after spending their first night sequestered in a nearby hotel. Now members of the 12person Jury are set to resume deliberations at any moment, as protesters marched in the streets outside, jurors met four hours Monday Night before calling it quits around 8 00 local time. All of that after Closing Arguments from both sides and two very different versions of what happened to George Floyd