Its good to be with you tonight. The defense rested its case, this week in the Derek Chauvin Murder trial. There was a crowd. And yes, the crowd was becoming more loud and aggressive. I felt that Derek Chauvin was justified, and was acting with Objective Reasonableness. I will invoke my Fifthamendment Privilege today. Closing arguments are on monday. And tonight, our legal experts will break down last Weeks Pivot moments, including extended excerpts from the trial. From nbc News World Headquarters in work york, im Joshua Johnson with a Special Report on the Derek Chauvin Murder trial. Welcome to the week. Week three of the trial was overshadowed by anotherpolice killing in the minneapolis area. Protests, quickly, broke out in the suburb of Brooklyn Center over the death of Daunte Wright. That intensified the twin Citys Anxiety over the chauvin trials outcome. Judge Peter Cahill denied a request from the defense to sequester and reinterview each juror about the Wright Shooting and protests. Lets break down how the week went, in court. Prosecution called its final witnesses, on monday. Cardiologist jonathan rich honed in on the states main point that george Floyds Death was, quote, absolutely preventable. I can state, with a high degree of medical certainty, that George Floyd did not die from a primarycardiac event. And he did not die from a drug overdose. Taken into account all of the evidence that you reviewed, do you have an opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, as to whether mr. Floyds death was preventable . Yes. I believe that mr. George Floyds Death was absolutely preventable. If, um, mr. Floyd had simply gotten in the backseat of the squad car, do you think that he would have survived . Had he not been restrained, in The Way in which he was, i think, he would have survived. Then, the prosecution called a familiar face. George floyds brother, philonise. He gave jurors a glimpse into his late Brothers Personality and family life. Being around him. He showed us, like, how to treat our mom. And how to respect our mom. He he just he loved her, so dearly. And when george he had found out that my mom was passed, because she had to stay with us for hospice. And he was talking to her, over the phone, but she perished before he even came down there. So, that right there, it hurt him a lot. And when we went to the funeral, its just george just sat there at the casket, over and over again, he would just say mama, mama, over and over again. And with that, the prosecution rested. Now, it was the defenses attorney. From their point of view, all they needed to do was establish a Reasonable Doubt. Defense attorney, eric nelson, began by highlighting an earlier runin that George Floyd had with Law Enforcement. He called two witnesses to speak about a 2019 incident in which mr. Floyd was detained during a traffic stop. After setting the scene, mr. Nelson pivoted to the Crowds Involvement in george Floyds Death. Minneapolispark Police Officer, peter chang, took the stand. Officer chang arrived to back up the tworookie officers, who, first, responded to the scene, before Derek Chauvin and his part never arrived. His Neverbeforeseen Bodycamera Footage showed George Floyd handcuffed sitting on The Street talking with another officer. Officer chang described the crowd of bystanders. Yet, during the crossexamination, he seemed to undercut the defenses point. When you arrived i think, we even heard, as you are pulling up, the officers already assigned Call Code four, correct . Yes. And what is your understanding or, back on May 25th of 2020, what was your understanding about what code four means . Scene safety. So, its under control, correct . Yes. All right. Next, on the stand, was one of the Defenses Star witnesses. Former officer barry braud. He testified in defense of mr. Chauvins use of force. Can you, just briefly, overview your opinions, in this particular case . I felt that Derek Chauvin was justified, was acting with Objective Reasonableness. Following Minneapolispolice Department Policy and current standards of Law Enforcement in his interactions with mr. Floyd. Now, this contrasted with two weeks of prosecution witnesses, who claim the opposite. Mr. Brodd went on to argue that the prone position George Floyd was held in did not qualify, not, as a use of force. But this point fell apart, during the prosecutions crossexamination. The maintaining of the prone control to me is not a use of force. Why is it not a use of force . Because thats a control technique. It doesnt hurt. I need to ask you, if you believe that it is unlikely that orienting yourself on top of a person, on the pavement, with both legs, is unlikely to produce pain . It could. If this act, that we are looking at here, in exhibit 17, could produce pain. Would you agree, that what we are seeing here is a use of force . Shown in this picture, that could be a use of force. On wednesday, the defense called its oneandonly medicalexpert witness, dr. David fowler. He gave his professional opinion on the cause of death. He would have the toxicology, the fentanyl and methamphetamine. There is exposure to a vehicle exhaust, so potentially carbonmonoxide poisoning. Or at least, an effect from increased Carbon Monoxide in his bloodstream. And p paraganglioma. Hes got significantnatural disease. Certainly, the heart. Paraganglioma, you can certainly consider is it as a Potentialexacerbating Process but i wouldnt put it at the top of the list there. So hes got a mixture of that. And then, hes he is in a situation where hes been restrained in a very stressful situation. And that increased his fightandflighttype reaction. And that would, during restraint, would be considered a homicide. And you put all of those together. Its very difficult to say, which of those is the most accurate. So, i would fall back to undetermined. Now, if we can in this particular case. Then, it was Derek Chauvins time to speak, if he chose to. But when asked, if he would like to testify on his behalf, he declined. Wed have this conversation repeatedly, correct . Correct. I have, repeatedly, advised you that this is your decision, and your decision, alone, right . Correct. I have advised you, and we have gone back and forth on the matter, would be Kind Of an understatement, right . Yes, it is. Have you made a decision, today, whether you intend to testify . Or whether you intend to invoke your Fifthamendment Privilege . I will invoke my Fifthamendment Privilege today. After just seven witness testimonies, the defense rested its case. Then, the prosecution brought in a rebuttal witness. Pulmonologist, martin tobin, testified last week, and he was brought, back, to the stand. Dr. Tobin offered a counteropinion to dr. Fowlers medical testimony. He argued that attributing george Floyds Death to Carbon Monoxide was wrong. Do you have an opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, as to whether the statement that mr. Floyds Carboxy Hemoglobin is reliable . No, i believe it is not reliable. Would you tell the Ladies And Gentlemen why that statement is not reliable . I base it on the Blood Gas that was obtained when mr. Floyd was in hennepin county. In other words, as to the statement that his Carboxy Hemoglobin could have increased, in your view, thats not possible . Its simply wrong. And it was, at most, 2 . At most, 2 . Normal . Very i mean, which is normal. With all the testimonies wrapping up, closing arguments are set for monday. After that, jurors will be sequestered until they reach a verdict. Lets begin now, with the scene in minneapolis. Joining us now is Janell Ross Senior Correspondent for time and msnbc contributor. Janelle, its good to see you again. Especially, because you have been reporting a lot on George Floyd square and whats been happening there. Whats it like today to stand near that memorial . Whats it been like particularly these last few weeks . The square is a dynamic place so it is a little different, every day. But i think that some of the tension around the city, certainly, can be felt there as well. There are days when a lot of people who come into the square and want to leave various things. At the outdoor memorial. And there are days when there are very few people there and on those days, i think its easiest to understand Sort Of the, i guess, constant ecosystem there. There are a lot of people engaged in a lot of different, i would say, socialservice or nonprofit projects. There, certainly, are people who are still doing business in the area. There are people who are bringing their children through there. At the same time, it is, also, an area, like many others in this city and others around the country, where crime has gone up. There is no doubt about that. I dont want us to get into hyperbole as it relates to communities like these that have been so, thoroughly traumatized by a policeinvolved zentd and are awaiting results of this trial. The common narrative is that the twin cities are on pins and needles waiting for the verdict in this trial. That no matter what the verdict is, its going to be an outpouring of something. Grief or anger. We just dont know what. Is that a fair characterization . Or is there more to it than that . I think so. I think, again, i i think it depends what part of the city youre in. The closer that people are, i think, in a personal way, to what happened at the corner of 38th and chicago avenue. The more, perhaps, they are watching the trial more closely. And perhaps, are more anxious about what will come next. At the same time, i think there a lot of broad conversation about an entire city here, having been traumatized. Certainly, you do Sense A Degree of tension in the air. Ill, also, be honest and say that that is Sort Of the effects of 2020. Where everyone claimed to have had a, Sort Of, racial awakening. I i would say it faded to the degree that people of color are still being followed in stores, in the suburbs around here, and in in neighborhoods that are not near 38th and chicago. I know, because it happened to me. I dont think that minneapolis is, in that way, entirely different than the rest of the country. This happened here. So, of course, i think that emotions are much more intense. But many of the things that are happening all around the country are, also, happening here in minneapolis. Could i ask you, just broadly. And i dont i dont want to dig into something thats too painful but in terms of what happened to you, did that give you any deeper insight into whats going on . I presume they didnt, like, interrogate you or anything like that. Just Kind Of that distant where you can feel eyes on the back of your head. That Kind Of thing . Exactly. Yes. And i mean, to be frank, and i am sure you are aware, it happens on occasion. It happened when i was here in 2020. It happened, again, the other day. It happens. And it wasnt i wasnt confronted. There was nothing particularly dramatic about it but you are aware of it. And, you know, i im there isnt a particular reason for a Storestaff Member to follow me, basically, through the aisles all The Way to the cash register. So, what can you say . Yeah. I i hear that. Before i have to let you go, janelle, is i wonder what your sense is, in terms of how these two sets of protests, these two sets of these two cases are intersecting. Do you get the sense that the dauntewright protests are, Kind Of, another matter in peoples minds . Is it, all, Kind Of merging together . How does that factor in, before i have to let you go . No, i i i think, obviously, the what happened to Daunte Wright in Brooklyn Center is, certainly, troubling to people, in its own right. But the sense that these cases are, very much, related. That there is a way of policing, that is tolerated, if not encouraged, that is particularly brutal or dangerous to black residents of minnesota. I think, those things, certainly, link the two cases. I think, there are lots of people asking questions about the amount of force that was brought to bear in the case of mr. Wright. The fundamentally, he was, initially, stopped for expired tags. There are overahalfmillion people in minnesota with expired tags, right now. So, on the other end of the spectrum, certainly, there are many people who are still asking questions about the amount of force that was brought to bear for the alleged use of a counterfeit 20 bill. So, you know, again, there is a point of vection here. We should note we are looking at pictures of a protest in Brooklyn Center. I believe that these protects protests are near the Police Department in Brooklyn Center. Police department and the scene where Daunte Wright was killed are aboutthree miles apart. And Brooklyn Center is a suburb of minneapolis just on the other side of the Mississippi River from the city, and aboutten miles from the courthouse, where the Derekchauvin Trial is taking place. Janell ross, good to see you. Thanks very much. Thanks. Still to come. Maryland is making history. Becoming the first state to repeal its Lawenforcement Bill of rights. The States House Speaker sponsored this bill. Speaker will join us later in the hour. Plus, we will have more highlights from Derek Chauvins defense after the break. But first, Richard Lui is here with the headlines. Hey, richard. Josh, very good evening to you. Some stories we are wafing for you this hour. A Florida Nurse was charged for Death Threats against Vice President kamala harris. The woman is being held by federal authorities after allegedly making a series of videos threatening to kill harris. If convicted, she would face up to five years in prison. More than 3 Million people have died from covid19, worldwide. The globaldeath toll, now, is equivalent to the populations of philadelphia and dallas, combined. Despite vaccine rollouts, the crisis is worsening in countries like brazil, india, and france. Finally, for you, a Plane Landing in the ocean at the Cocoa Beach Air show in florida. A post on the air shows Facebook Page said the plane appeared to have mechanical trouble. Also, saying the pilot is okay. 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On thursday, the defense rested its case in the Murder Trial of Derek Chauvin. They called justseven witnesses, over the course of two days. Compare that, to almost40 witnesses, called by the state. Some key testimony came from dr. David fowler. He is a retiredforensic pathologist, and formerhead of marylands medical examiners office. His testimony contradicted that of hennepin countys chief medical examiner, dr. Andrew baker. Dr. Baker said george Floyds Death was a homicide. Dr. Fowler saw it differently. So, this is one of those cases where you have so many conflicting, different matters. The Carbon Monoxide would usually be classified as an accident. Although, somebody was holding him there. So, some people would say, you could elevate that to a homicide. You have got the drugs onboard. In most circumstances, in most jurisdictions, a Drug Intoxication would be considered to be an accident. Hes got significantnatural disease. Certainly, the heart. The paraganglioma. You can certainly consider it as a Potentialexacerbating Process. But i couldnt put it top of the list there. So hes got a mixture of that. And then, hes hes in a situation, where he is being restrained, in a very stressful situation. And that increased his fightandflighttype reaction. And that would, during restraint, would be considered a homicide. And you put all of those together, its very difficult to say which of those is the most accurate. So, i would fall back to undetermined. Now, if we can in this particular case. Joining us now to break down the weeks testimony is sara azari, criminal defense attorney. Charles Coleman Jr. And jill winebanks, msnbc contributor, former watergate special Prosecutor And Author of the watergate girl. Good to have yall with us. And, jill, let me start with you and all this medical testimony. So we had four prosecution experts, who said it was asphyxiation. Dr. Fowler said the cause of death is undetermined. What is the effect of all of this, jill . Does this just confuse the jury . Or did you see some throughlines that jurors make might sense of . I think, it was intended to confuse the jury. Because thats about the only thing the defense has going. They have to create, whats called, Reasonable Doubt. But no one asks the juror if the juror is being reasonable, in accepting any fact, as a Reasonable Doubt. So, an unreasonable juror can hang the jury. And thats what the defense is going for. Fowler, himself, actually, said things like, well, the Carbon Monoxide, since they held him there. That could be homicide. He identified several causes that would be labeled homicide. Two things about that. One, homicide, from a medical standpoint, is irrelevant. The elements of the offense that have to be proved by the prosecution are different than having a medical opinion about it. But, even he said that there were homicide elements in it. Yeah. And in minnesota, you dont have to prove that it was the sole cause, just that it was a substantial cause. And offsetting his testimony is what the jury has seen, in video. And what all of the othermedical experts said. So, on balance, theres no way a reasonable juror could conclude it wasnt homicide, due to the compression on the neck, the knee on the neck, the knee on the back. Thats being prone, having his hands pulled up higher and hurting his hand with the the handcuffs. Right. Right. Those are the causes of death. Sara, lets listen to another exchange with the prosecution. And then, i will get your thoughts on the other side. Do you feel that mr. Floyd should have been given immediateemergency attention to try to reverse the Cardiac Arrest . As a physician, i would agree. Are you critical of the fact that he wasnt given immediateemergency care when he went into Cardiac Arrest . Yeah, as a physician, i would agree. Sara, that sounds like a a concession that may hurt the Defenses Case. Absolutely. Look. I agree with jill. That, the idea or the goal for the defense and and and look, as a defense attorney, i appreciate that sometimes we have to defend the indefensible. The goal here was to to try to do the best you can to show the use of force was justified. And causation was everything, and anything, except for chauvins knees on floyds neck. But here is the deal. This guy this expert, dr. Fowler. Number one, he lacks credibility. He, pretty much, consistently, testifies for Police Officers. So, hes he is a bit biased. Secondly, hes had, in his past, a scenario where he covered up for a Police Officer. And then, with respect to this testimony, that was the biggest gift that he gave to the prosecutors, in this case. Which is, chauvin should have, but did not, render aid to floyd. And lets not forget. That floyd was not just in chauvins custody. He was in chauvins care. And chauvin failed to render aid. The other thing that occurred on his crossexamination was this idea of this fugazi, you know, cause being the exhaust or the excessCarbon Monoxide, which, simply, was disingenuous. You know, there was no evidence, whatsoever, that there was excessCarbon Monoxide in the area or in floyds body. And so, the idea that an expert, who was supposed to be the smartest man in the room and to be able to back up his testimony with data but he had none was, frankly, embarrassing for the defense. But like jill said, you know, the defense had to put on a case and try to refute the causation. And try to refute the idea that the use of force was excessive. Yeah. But it really was an epic fail. I think i heard you say that dr. Fowler had no credibility, partly, because he had covered up for an officer in the past . Can you clarify that . What did he do . The the the really, all i know is that there were allegations that there was another Policebrutality Case in which he was an expert. And that he covered up for the officer, which for whom he was testifying in the case. He is biased. He, pretty much, only testifies for Police Officers. And not for the defense. And not for the prosecution. Charles, what is your sense of the States Strategy in terms of calling almost40 witnesses, and then bringing dr. Tobin back . It would seem like theyd built such a gigantic case, compared to the Defenses Case. That, i would have thought, they would have covered all the bases and didnt necessarily need that witness to come back. But what did you think . Well, joshua, i think, in a case like this, you dont want to leave anything up to chance. I think, that the prosecution heard what dr. Fowler said, and what he put in the minds of the jurors, when he first introduced the possibility of the Carbon Monoxide being a particular factor in george Floyds Death. And what they wanted to ensure was that they gave every amount of information to the jury, possible, so that the jury would not be distracted by that issue. There was there was a bit of a procedural snafu on the Prosecutions Behavior because they made the judge aware of an actual report. That would have, more cleanly, explained the Carbonmonoxide Issue in in in George Floyds blood at the time. However, the judge was very swift and very clear on their ruling. Basically, saying that, if that witness referenced that report, at any point, in any way, that there was going to be a mistrial. So, on one hand, it was a risk by the prosecution to put that witness back on the stand. But from a rebuttal place, i can understand why they did not want to leave any stone unturned. Now, as far as the quantity of the witnesses, what the judge is going to instruct that jury during the when that jury gets the case, the judge is going to inform the jury it is not the quantity of witnesses, it is the quality of witnesses. So, those jurors can believe some, or none, or all of the testimony they have heard from the 37 witnesses presented by the prosecution or the seven witnesses presented by the defense. But even as that may be, as i listen as i listened and watched the trial this week, i cooperate help but think when i thought about the Defenses Case of an old line from a song, we dont believe you. We need more people. Because simply did not have enough meat on their their case in chief. Everyone, stick around. There is much more to discuss, in just a minute. Next, we will hear from a Useofforce Expert in Derek Chauvins defense. And check out the prosecutions crossexamination. Thats when we come back. Ats wk of Course Youve seen underwear that fits like this. 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Can you, just briefly, overview your opinions, in this particular case . I felt that Derek Chauvin was justified, and was acting with Objective Reasonableness, following Minneapolispolice Department Policy, and current standards of Law Enforcement in his interactions with mr. Floyd. Now, in terms of your analysis of any case, you i think, you described this, a little bit. But you did you refer to, Kind Of, an increase of level of force, to overcome the resistance . How would you describe that . Police terminology, its called one upmanship. So Police Officers dont have to fight fair. They are allowed to overcome your resistance by going up a level or resorting to a Differentforce Option to let them accomplish the goal of getting you to comply. Sara, jill, charles, i appreciate you making a little more time with us. Sara, i want to start with you and what mr. Brodd said. The only witness to claim Chauvins Use of force was justified. I heard a few things that caught my ear. One was Objective Reasonableness. The other had to do with following policy. I know there is a public disconnect for some between what is reasonable and policy. And then, he made the remark, the police dont have to fight fair. They can use more force to overcome your force, if you continue to mount resistance. What did you think the net effect of that testimony, might be on the jury . Jurors are not stupid, joshua. They heard, in the span of days, from five minnesota Police Officers. The Police Chief, which is rare that a Police Chief would testify. The officer that trained chauvin. A law professor, at The End of the case. And Chauvins Supervisor who, all, consistently testified that, the use of force by chauvin was unreasonable. It was unjustified. It was excessive. And chauvin was not trained to use this force. This was in Opening Statement i think we heard nelson say that that hes going to prove that that chauvin did what he was trained to do. Well, thats not true. And that, at The End, that, you know, that that this is against department protocol. So, you know, this guy, you know, is poker face, sitting there opining on the reasonableness of use of force, in the face of extremely compelling testimony by multiple witnesses. About how it is unreasonable and excessive. And and and so, you know, to chriss point, its not the quantity, its the quality of these witnesses. But these will important witnesses from the Police Department. Someone who trained chauvin. All of whom are saying this is not okay. Well, and jill, to that point, lets get to another section of mr. Brodds testimony, where she will show you part of his conversation with the defense. And then, how the prosecution came back at that. Watch. The maintaining of the prone control, to me, is not a use of force. Why is it not a use of force . Because its a control technique. Without it doesnt hurt. I need to ask you, if you believe that it is unlikely that orienting yourself, on top of a person, on the pavement. With both legs. Is unlikely to produce pain . It could. This act, that we are looking at here in exhibit 17, could produce pain. Would you agree, that what we are seeing here is a use of force . Shown in this picture, that could be a use of force. Jill, what about that backpedal. The impact of that . Prosecution has been bril brilliant in this case. They eviscerated, both, dr. Fowler and mr. Brodd. They really made their points very clear. And sara had mentioned about gifts to the prosecution. The testimony about things, like he was resting, comfortably, on The Street. Which the jurors saw the video. They know he wasnt resting, comfortably. Saying the police dont have to fight fair. And going back to the doctor. He, also, gave a great gift to the prosecution when he said things like, well, it could have been homicide for exposing him to Carbon Monoxide. Thats creating a wholenew thing. And then, i have to say, that calling dr. Tobin was fabulous. Dr. Fowler opened up the door to doing that. Dr. Tobin, the prosecution witness, was a phenomenal witness. He had the jury feeling their throat, feeling the back of their neck. And doing the the internalization of what George Floyd was going through. He really related with them. And so, being able to close the case, on rebuttal, with a great witness. Which they wouldnt have been able to do, if he hadnt lied. And now, in closing argument, i predict that you will hear, if he was wrong about the Carbon Monoxide, then he is wrong on everything else. And you can assume, if he lied about one thing, he is inaccurate on all the other things. And juries saw see that, as really compelling argument. So i think they did a lot of damage, in their own presentation of defense evidence. I hear you, in terms of attributing that as homicide. That Kind Of helps to establish a potential. You know, a causality. That this death was not just because of some condition that he had, but because of the actions of Derek Chauvin. And thus, could possibly be construed for that could possibly be evidence for for a guilty verdict. But, charles, i do want to get to one other section of the testimony, before i have to let yall go. Where mr. Brodd is talking about George Floyds compliance on that day. Watch. The defendant did not alter the level of force that he was using on mr. Floyd, did he . No. Even though, mr. Floyd, by this point, had become, as you put, compliant, fair . More compliant, yes. A compliant person would have both their hands in the small of their back, and just be resting comfortably. Versus, like, he is still moving around. Did you say resting comfortably . Or laying comfortably. Resting comfortably, on the pavement . Yes. At this point, in time, when he is attempting to breathe by shoving his shoulder into the pavement . I was describing what the signs of a perfectlycompliant person would be. Charles, before i have to let yall go, how do you see the net effect of that testimony . That effort, by the defense, to justify Derek Chauvins actions. Well, the thing that makes this case unique is that we actually have video. A lot of times, with trials, you are dealing with witnesses who are describing a scene. You may have a picture or photograph. But you dont have actualrealtime video. And so, the prosecution is able to, completely, erase this attempt at a defense, from the defense, because they are going to simply say, use your common sense. Use what your eyes are telling you because you have the benefit of the video. Weve all seen it. We all know what it looks like. And if you pair that with your with your common sense, it only affirms what those witnesses have said. So, that defense is not going to be effective by the defense. Its not something that is likely going to hold a lot of weight. And like i believe it was jill who said earlier it will take an unreasonable Jury Juror to make the conclusion there is Reasonable Doubt as to Derek Chauvins guilty in this case. Conversation for another night. This idea of Objective Reasonableness, and using your common sense. Id be interested in reflecting on The Way that that standard has played out in other useofforce cases, where we did not have all the video. Compared, to this case, where we do. And where your Objective Reasonableness being a Fly On The Wall for the whole thing plays out differently than having bits and pieces of tape, as curated by a Police Department. Conversation for another night but i appreciate the three of you walking us through what happened this week. Criminal defense attorney, sara azari. Civil rights attorney, Charles Coleman Jr. And former Assistant Watergate special prosecutor, jill winebanks. Thank you yall very much. Much appreciated. Coming up, the state of maryland has responded to concerns over Law Enforcement in a historic way. We will explain, just ahead. Stay close. Stay close [music youre the best by joe esposito] [music youre the best by joe esposito] [triumphantly yells] [ding] dont get mad. Get E Trade and take charge of your finances today. For skin that never holds you back dont settle for silver 1 for diabetic dry skin 1 for Psoriasis Symptom Relief and 1 for eczema Symptom Relief Gold Bond Champion your skin limu Emu Doug excuse me maam, did you know that Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need . Thank you hey, hey, no, no, limu, no limu only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. These are the people who work on the front lines. They need a network thats built right. Thats why we created verizon frontline. The advanced Network And Technology for first responders. Built on americas most reliable network. Built for real interoperability. And built for 5g. Its americas 1 network in public safety. Verizon frontline. Built right for first responders. This week, maryland is the first state to repeal its Law Enforcement Officers Bill of rights. That means, civilian panels will largely decide how to discipline officers. Stricter useofforce standards require officers to use deescalation tactics. And officers found to have used excessive force will face criminal penalties. Its a bold move. But will it be enough to reshape policing in maryland . Joining us, now, is the lawmaker who sponsored the repeal. Democratic speaker of the house of delegates, adrienne jones. Speaker jones, good evening, welcome. Thank you. Can we clarify Something Terminology wise . The Repeel Repeal of this does n Law Enforcement officers have no rights. Just clarify what this thing does and what this thing doesnt do. Okay. No. It it it repeals the the laobr, try and shorten it. It was established in 1974, about50 years ago. And but but the repeal means that we have police we found that police were misusing their power. And many times, you know, it was deadly outcomes. So, what we what we did, by repealing it, we gave more rights, in terms of citizens or orientation, as opposed to, solely, police. So, some of the measures that we that we actually passed through this this last session. Uhhuh. It its to me, is making a big difference. Extremely big difference. What does it what does it tell you, by The Way, speaker, that this past overruling a veto for marylands governor, larry hogan, what did that tell you . Well, we we knew we had the numbers. We have majority democrats in the both, the house and the senate. So, we were you know, that the governor vetoed it. We thats one of the first ones that we overrid. But thats on, you know, the republicans on our Side Werent necessarily in in sync with what we were doing. But but we we we knew what has happened because a lot of the issues has taken place through citizens that are black and brown. Yeah. So, you know, and, you know, i have been stopped, you know, years ago for a taillight. Yeah. And when the police surrounded me, they had their hands on their guns. And i said, was this really necessary . And, you know, and they say, well, we didnt know we didnt know if you might have had a gun. This was years years ago. People in your district even today and you represent a district in baltimore county, people in your District Today who remember what happened with Freddie Gray and remember the last time they were stopped or dealt with the police who may either be very and youll have to clarify this for me either very hopeful or skeptical as to whether or not change can be made with Law Enforcement. What are you hearing whether they see the potential for meaningful change, meaningful improvement in Law Enforcement . Ive been hearing a lot of positives and get a lot of accolades that we have taken this step as was noted, maryland was the first to enact the law Officers Enforcement Bill of rights and also the first to repeal it. So it became and we did so because it became a very powerful mechanism for a Police Officer to avoid consequences as a result of their misconduct. And, you know, when we go ahead im sorry. Actually your timing is perfect. Unfortunately we have to move on. But its an interesting move, an interesting repeal and ill be interested to see what the impact of this is on Law Enforcement in the state of maryland in the months and the years to come. Maryland House Speaker adrian jones, thanks very much. Thank you. You check more on Police Reform across the country in our new episode of the week on peacock, this link will take you straight there. Pck. Tv theweek. Well preview tomorrows show before we go. 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When it comes to reforming policing in america we focus tonight on what that reform actually looks like and how change is made harder with some in congress demanding return to Quote Anglosaxon roots. This is american vce