Deleterious affects on mr. Floyds health. If we could advance to the next clip. Okay. At point i dont believe yes. Go ahead and publish that. The frazier video 20 28 42, exhibit 15. Bro. You guys arent checking the pulse and doing all right. And what is it you see here thats relevant to the analysis . This is immediately before mr. Floyd is loaded on to the stretcher and you see the defendant take his knee off of mr. Floyd and shortly after that, that particular mr. Floyd is rolled and lifted on to the stretcher. Would that mark the end of the restraint period at 9 29 . Yes, it would. Your honor, this would be an opportune time for a break. Lets take our 20minute break. Hi there, everyone. It is 4 00 in the east. After 11 days of compelling and emotional testimony from witnesses the prosecutions case against former Police Officer Derek Chauvin for the murder of george floyd is nearing its end. We have been listening to what is expected to be the prosecutions final witness. Seth stoughton that professor that specializes in use of force and policing and there to drive home the point that chauvins actions were excessive and the main reason that george floyd died on may 25, 2020. This came after emotional and deeply personal testimony from the younger brother of george floyd. Who spoke about the man who floyd was and how he was a role model for their entire family. Watch. He just was like a person that everybody loved around the community. He just knew how to make people feel better. Being around him, he showed us like how to treat our mom and how to respect our mom. He just he loved her so dearly. Earlier in the day the prosecution heard from their final medical expert. Heart specialist who like the other medical witnesses said that floyds health did not play a factor in his death that day. In this case, mr. George floyd died from a cardiopulmonary arrest. It was caused by low Oxygen Levels. And those low Oxygen Levels were induced by the prone restraint and positionals a fix quags. I can state with a high degree of medical certainty george floyd did not die from a cardiac event and did not die from a drug overdose. Taken into account all of the evidence that you reviewed, do you have an opinion to reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether mr. Floyds death was preventable . Yes, i do. Would you tell us what that opinion is . Yes. I believe that mr. George floyds death was absolutely preventable. Lets bring into our conversation nbc news correspondent Shaquelle Brewster live for us In Minneapolis and former missouri senator and former prosecutor Claire Mccaskill and former prosecutor. Theres so much to talk about today but lets start with what happened the courtroom. Lets start with George Floyds brother. Take me how that personal testimony landed. Reporter really emotional testimony heard there from George Floyds brother who was essentially what they call a spark of life witness. He came up, he told personal stories of george floyd, how george floyd suffered after his mother died and with a loss of his mother. It was very emotional. We havent seen in the past week a witness go up on the stand and have that emotion, especially with this trial and you consider that first week when we started and seemed like nearly every witness breaking down and getting emotional. After that technical testimony we got to hear from the brother of george floyd with an emotional side and trying to humanize george floyd to the jury. They didnt know about him as a person so this is a way for the prosecution to make that clear for the jury. Shaq, as impactful as tft they have chosen this witness on a break now, Seth Stoughton and said first testified that george floyd said i cant breathe 27 times and then he said this. Quote someone who does not have a pulse does not represent a threat. Talk about the strategy of this witness as the prosecutions closing witness. Reporter yeah. It is very interesting. This witness was controversial. The Defense Attorney objected to this witness giving his testimony saying that it would have a cumulative effect and been other officers, other experts 0 come up and speak about their opinions of Derek Chauvin and his actions. The prosecution said and we got a little bit of the strategy this morning saying this expert studies use of force incidents on a National Basis through multiple Police Departments so thats the unique element that hes able to provide and we are starting to get into that idea but i think you also get a sense of the how different this is in the order that we have been seeing. This prosecution has laid out a clear arc to the testimony. Use of force experts and then made a pivot back to use of force with this testimony. I think part of it is as we know the prosecution is gearing up to rest, they emphasize the point for the jury to understand which is the actions of Derek Chauvin they are saying contributed significantly to George Floyds death and hammering home the point that it was the use of force, Excessive Force by Derek Chauvin that led to floyds loss of life. Claire, we always ask you to wear the many hats when you are with us today. If you could put on the former prosecutor hat and speak to the arc that shaq described as a decision from this team of prosecutors. Well sure. They started with really powerful testimony from bystanders. People who dont have skin in this game. They are just happen to be there and they were very credible and some were experts. A First Responder among them and then you got into the emotional testimony of his girlfriend and then really technical testimony. Then they bring it back to the emotional. It is they have made a strong case and now as they close the case you see the defense try to find one or two places to get maybe one jury to argue, whether it was the knee on the neck or the shoulder or the State Of Mind of the Police Officer. But heres whats really interesting about this trial. Most use of force trials you witness the blue wall. And the blue wall is that Police Departments stick together. About use of force because they believe its something they need to do to protect them from danger. That blue wall came tumbling down in this case. You had the chief of police. You had other officers present all questioning the acts of this individual officer. And that makes this case extraordinarily powerful for the prosecutors. And i want to i think thats what you saw as a viewer, someone taking all this in from home and ostensibly as a juror and i want to play this piece of testimony. A strategy seemed to be to muddy up the cause of the death. Can we agree that it is a pretty common occurrence that people die who have arteries that are 90 blocked . No, sir. The increase in adrenaline from a struggle with officers . All of those things combine together even in the absence of prone restaint could have resulted in death. Yes or no, sir . Upon my review of the facts and evidence of the case i found no evidence to support that. So, david, you know, certainly the sense of the defense was trying to muddy the waters around cause of death. This death seemed to protect the prosecution from having that question fogged up in the minds of the jurors. Thats exactly right and i think why this witness was called today. We talked about whether or not it is overkill. It is. But its overkill in the best possible way and if the defense paid attention to the experts that testified theyre intelligent people, sophisticated. They expressed the ideas in sophisticated ways to say theyre nuanced. The medical examiner gave them an end to use to argue with regard to multiple causal factors to contribute to George Floyds death instead of trying to exploit them they say its the Underlying Health and drug use and simply isnt going to play especially with witnesses like that. And this is what it comes down to. Representing people in court, you can do it honorably or dishonorably. The defense chose dishonorably and less effective had they taken another approach. Shaq, all of the sort of open questions now center around whether or not exofficer Derek Chauvin will testify. I want to read something from the star tribune. This is a case that centers on the State Of Mind and the best person to tell us about that would be chauvin and might be forced to putt him on the case said a veteran Defense Attorney. What is and we ask you this every day but what is the state of your understanding of whether they plan to put Derek Chauvin on the stand. Reporter we dont know. I talked to a Defense Attorney not connected with this case but one that argued before the judge in the courtroom behind me and watching this closely and saying he doesnt think eric nelson or the defense tome knows if Derek Chauvin will take the stand just yet and will go and be determined by the witnesses. The witnesses that the defense then brings up and how much they believe the jury is listening and what kind of success, what kind of inroads to make with the Defense Witnesses when they start presenting the case and could come as soon as tomorrow. So i know we also gotten a hint of the idea. Some different points that eric nelson is insinuating in some of the crossexaminations. For example, you heard multiple times, multiple witnesses asked about the group of bystanders, the mob as it was put in some ways. Whether or not that group of by standers distracted Derek Chauvin from providing medical aid or whether or not that was a threat that the officers had to worry about. You heard the factor of drugs and the drugs and George Floyds heart conditions. You are getting a sense of the elements playing into the crossexamination and part of that many people are feeling is that thats a way that eric nelson can introduce a narrative to hear from Derek Chauvin if he were to take the stand without him being on the stand exactly but thats the big speculation whether or not Derek Chauvin will take the stand. It is the right not to take the stand but he does have the opportunity to do that and clear that up for many members of the jury. Claire, i want your thoughts on that. The strategy. But i also want to ask you about developing news today the defense was dealt a blow when the judge denied a request to sequester the jury after the shooting of 20yearold dante wright about 10 miles from where george floyd was killed and i wonder if you can assess the state of the defense today. First on the testimony of the defendant, this is always a risky, risky decision. Especially in a case like this where his State Of Mind is absolutely part of this equation. If hemp to take the stand h could apologize and cut against the finding of a depraved mind which is part of the elements of proof for a murder in the third degree and certainly in the second degree. So on the oh hand he gets to be crossexamined about potentially prior Policing Activity that might show that there might be some pattern here of him using Excessive Force and answer for the nine minutes every time someone said he is not a risk. Even his partner saying to him we cant find a pulse. I think the judge refusing to sequester is an interesting decision. Clearly this shooting is going to be all over the news, hard for the jury not to see it. But i think the judge is saying i think this jury can be depended on to stick to the facts of this case but we have a tinderbox now in this community with the shooting of someone getting pulled over for expired License Plates and now saying it was an accident that the woman who shot him thought she was using the taser. Thats the kind of recklessness that the community refuses to accept and they should to refuse to accept. Well have full coverage of that latest episode. David, claire is saying he could take the stand and apologize and might do him some good on the question of depravity but i have seen that and read about that in coverage of trials where something happens in a split second and officers apologizing for that instinct of fear. I have never seen it deployed when the action that kills someone is 9 29. What is your take on whether that would land with a jury as well as on the judges ruling not to sequester this jury . With regard to chauvin testifying i think that the groundwork that needed to be laid to do it has not been laid. I have made no secret saying i have no love for Derek Chauvin and want to see him convicted but part of the job to recognize when someone can make a legitimate argument to help the case. He should have argued what i did is wrong but im part of a system to put the events into play. And that would have worked. I think the reason why the lawyer didnt do that is he is not used trying cases with Police Misconduct in a postgeorge floyd world where the rules are different. The public is paying attention and people care at justice for police when they wrongfully kill people but had the groundwork been laid you can never underestimate the impact of forgiveness in a court of law but i have seen it work under circumstances where it wouldnt have been anticipated and there are things that only chauvin could address on the stand even trying to do it through the witnesses. On the issue of sequestration, it is such an extreme measure that judges are always unlikely to take it. I think part of what he knows in this trial is that issues of the policing is always in the news. They will continue to impact the outcome of this trial. Tragically, that is the state of affairs. Nbcs Shaquelle Brewster thank you so much and plan to call on you again. So thank you. Claire and david are sticking around. The courtroom remains in a break. When we come back, more on the other Tragic Police shooting In Minneapolis that claire was talking about. The reckoning over race and policing again in the national spotlight. Dont go anywhere. Youre so unbelievable applebees irresistabowls are back. Dig in for just 8. 99. Youre unbelievable now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. We made usaa insurance for members like kate. A former army medic, made of the flexibility to handle whatever monday has in store and tackle four things at once. So when her car got hit, she didnt worry. 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Find the best in entertainment all in one place, with disney plus now on xfinity a way better way to watch. Were still monitoring the courtroom for any developments in the murder trial of Derek Chauvin but we turn now to the aftermath of the shooting death of another young black man by police in the minneapolis area. Just miles away from george floyd was kill jd the details in this weeks killing are different but the story achingly similar. Dante wright 20 was killed in a stop for a traffic violation. This Afternoon Police released the shocking Body Cam Video of the incident. It appears to show an Officer Shouting Taser before firing the handgun at wright with the police chief described as an accidental discharge of the officers firearm and will play the video for you and warn its graphic and very upsetting. Watch. [ inaudible ] theres a warrant. Youre not doing nothing. No. I will tase you i will tase you taser, taser, taser holy [ bleep ] i just shot him. Oh wow. Yes later in the video we can see dante wright was just shot speed away. Police say he drove for another few blocks before the vehicle crashed. He was found dead at the scene. The Body Shooting dante wright is placed on administrative leave pending a full investigation. Last night large crowds gathered in front of the Brooklyn Center Police Department, a curfew imposed and the National Guard mobilized to the scenes. Looting near the Police Department area, rocks and objects were thrown at the building. There were reports of shots fired nearby according to the commissioner of the Minnesota Department of public safety. Officers deployed Rubber Bullets and flash bangs. Joining our conversation yamiche elsindor, Claire Mccaskill and david henderson. I dont think anyone will get numb to seeing this. I know from watching the George Floyd Trial that every single time the video is played youre so aware that you are watching a man crying for his mom in the final minutes on this planet and with this video you watch a deadly shot fired. So i guess my question is wherever this leads young black men are paying with their lives for this huge problem that despite people pouring into the street day after day we dont appear to have made much progress on. Yeah. It is heart breaking and it is theres so many question that is that video brings up in my mind as a former prosecutor. He appeared to be totally compliant. He got out of the car, put his hands behind the back and then there was some talk about a warrant. What was the warrant for . Was it for anything serious or dangerous . If it turns out that warrant was for something thats a Property Crime or something that was even less serious than a Property Crime then what are they doing . Why is this escalation happening . It is it really calls for retraining of Police Officers around the issue of escalation and deescalation and i understand Police Officers have to make splitsecond decisions that sometimes cost them their lives making the wrong one but this instance where that young man got out of the car, clearly intending to get a gun he would have done that before getting out of the car so it is heart breaking and we have so much work to do on this. Everyone is focused on it in the new Biden Administration and i think the new Attorney General is, too. Yamiche, what is the reaction today from the white house . President biden said that he has seen this video and that it was troubling and that he is waiting to see what the Investigation Yield just he said that he is praying for this family. Hasnt reached out to the family yet but the white house on a bigger note also says that theyre pushing to get this George Floyd Justice in policing act through congress and very focused on policing and trying to solve this issue but in watching this video of Dwayne Wright a 20yearold shot by the Police Officer it is the nightmare that america and especially africanamericans in this country are living over and over and over again. This shooting reminds me so much of the shooting of officer grant on new years day in 2009 where a Police Officer shot that young man in california on a train station. That Police Officer served 11 months in prison. I interviewed the family of oscar grant and the children to this day when they see Police Officers they duck because theyre so traumatized by what happened to oscar grant and now another young man lose the life. We watched George Floyd Die Over and over again and here we are again having to watch another person die. I think theres a robust conversation about what the change needs to be but there are just people traumatized all over this country and some of them crying, some Young Children having to watch that and needs to be part of the conversation that is a harder thing to solve because we are as a nation personally in talking to the people tired of watching black people die at the hands of police on video in this way. Devastating at this point. It is unbearable. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over we as a country are certifiable. Yeah. Violent intentions lead to violent problems. Even if you accept what the police chief says claiming this is an accident it occurs in the context of people trying to force individuals to sub mitt and difficult for me because sitting here right now i think of three times i have been forced to get out of the vehicle for a minor traffic stop that didnt result in a ticket and three times ordered out of the car and the way the Police Officers tend to behave. If you comply quickly enough and ask questions they respokd with violence. Thats what links George Floyds case to the lieutenant in virginia to the case that were discussing right now. The violent intentions of police resort to violence too quickly and far too much of it. We hear the argument of splitsecond decisions but it occurs so infrequently. At some point we have to reexamine why they occur and why we allow it to happen and a witness in George Floyds case said and that was mr. Macmillian yelled at him when he was cuffed. You cant win. It is up on leadership to provide people with hope by ensuring that justice will be served. Combustion. Another word that really gets at the heart of this. Thank you so much. Ill ask you to stand by and go back into the murder trial of Derek Chauvin. After the restraint period was over, yes. The defendant left the position where he had been during the restraint and walked back i believe to his squad. The police vehicle. Walking by several bystanders. Not really interacting with them but walking by them or near them and then once in the vehicle he interacted with i believe the same bystander we discussed earlier, charlie macmillian. Charles. Apologies. Do you recall in reviewing this matter reviewing a statement that the defendant made to Charles Macmillian explaining the use of force upon mr. Floyd to mr. Macmillian . Yes. Do you recall the defendants explanation for the force level was . This of course will not be an exact quotation but something akin to describing mr. Floyd as a pretty big guy, possibly under the influence or on drugs and that officers needed to keep control over him. And was your assessment of this explanation, does it justify the level of force based on the defendants explanation to him that was used on mr. Floyd that day . All of the individual statements are true. Mr. Floyd was a large individual and he may be impaired by alcohol or drugs. But no, officers in this situation, a reasonable officer would have perceived in this situation to maintain control without putting a knee on the noek or keeping him in the prone position. Is there a National Recognized standard for Police Officers with respect to the duty to render aid and preserve life . Yes. It is long and rather loudly said that the Sanctity Of Human Life is the higher priority in police and generally accepted in police. What does that mean in practice . A couple different implications. The duty to assist or render aid to the extent that the officer has the ability and equipment to do so when the individuals are in medical distress. What if the officer doesnt believe the pirn whos reporting to the medical distress . Officers are not paramedics. Not emts. Theyre not doctors. The person may be lying but officers have the duty to respond to the situation as it appears and cannot take for granted just because some people lie to the police about medical distress that everyone or any one in particular person they interact with is lying about being in medical distress. You have to take that seriously. What facts and circumstances does a reasonable officer take into account determining whether or not they should render medical aid . A whole range of factors. What someone is saying. How they are saying it. Observations by other people. In this case in the clips you hear bystanders identifying that mr. Floyd is not responsive, for example, or may not be breathing. So whether the reasonable officers really paying attention to mr. Floyd or paying closer attention to the crowd, the point is the same. The evidence is suggesting theres medical distress here. Of course, you also look at the individuals behavior. So in this case, you cannot only hear mr. Floyd saying that he cant breathe but you hear the change in his voice as we discussed. You hear him stop talking. You see him stop moving. And the reasonable officer here would have been aware that at one point he no longer had a pulse. All of those individually are indicators of medical distress and signing of increasing medical distress. Professor, like to go to the last stage of the fourpart analysis and that is to determine whether officers actions appropriate and reasonable. And id like you to now please share the w the jury what conclusions that you have reached regarding use of force by the defendant on mr. Floyd. So ask you first, you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of professional certainty whether the type of force used by the defendant on george floyd on may 25, 2020, constituted deadly force. I do, yes. What is that opinion . That it did. The use of force had the foreseeable effect and substantial likelihood results in death or great bodily harm. Do you have a degree to a reasonable degree of professional certainty whether the type of force used by the defendant on george floyd on may 25, 2020, was reasonable as viewed by a reasonable Police Officer on the scene . I do have such an opinion. What is that opinion . Both the knee across mr. Floyds neck and the prone restraint were unreasonable, excessive and contrarily to generally accepted Police Practices. When did the Unreasonable Force begin . When mr. Floyd was put in the prone Restraint Position and when the defendants knee was placed on to his neck. When did it end . When the defendants knee was lifted after of mr. Floyd and taken out of the prone Restraint Position. Doof an opinion to a degree of reasonable professional certainty whether defendants use of force whereby he restrained mr. Floyd in that prone position for 9 29 on may 25, 2020, was reasonable as viewed by a reasonable Police Officer on the scene . Yes. And what is that opinion . No reasonable officer would have believed that that was an appropriate, acceptable or reasonable use of force. And was the force, did the force, was the force unreasonable as it started and ended . From the time it was niche yatded and throughout the duration, yes. Finally, do you have an opinion to a degree of reasonable professional certainty as to whether the defendant appropriately rendered medical aid to mr. Floyd may 25, 2020, in accordance to generally accepted Police Practices . I do. What is that opinion . The failure to render aid to mr. Floyd both by taking him out of the prone position and by rendering aid as his increasing medical distress increased was unreasonable and contrary. Thank you very much, professor. I have no further questions, your honor. Mr. Nelson . If i may have just a moment, your honor. Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon. Thank you for being here. Mr. Stoughton nobody gets it right. I wont take it personally. You testified that you were a Police Officer for approximately five years before going into the more academic nature of your work . I was fulltime with the Police Department for a little less than five years and stayed on as a reservist for six months and was an investigator before going to law school and taking an academic, route. Okay. And you analyzed this case principally from an academic stand point. Correct . I would not describe it academic, no. The professional standards for policing. Okay. And the gram versus connor standard is more to it than the three factors. Agreed . The standard is the Fourth Amendment standard, yes. Theres more to gram v. Connor and more to the professional standard than just gram v. Connor. That would include that the analysis of an officers use of force viewed from the totality of the circumstances . As viewed through the lens of a reasonable officer. It is not just 14 tensecond clips but the totality of the circumstances viewed through that lens. Agreed . Yes. And in fact, one of the standards that gram versus connor establishes is that shouldnt be viewed from the 20 20 lens of hindsight, right . It is an admonition to not rely on evidence that was available to the officers at the scene and doesnt mean we cant evaluate a use of force after the fact. Understood. But the information is the information that was available to the officer on scene at the time based on the reasonable officer standard. Right . Not exactly. It is the information that was vanl to a reasonable officer at the time. Not a subjective of the information that the individual officer had. Understood. So we look at it from a broader lens than just the officer that was actually on scene. Agreed . An objective lens, yes. Right. And that includes all of the things that would be known to a reasonable Police Officer on the scene . Yes. All right. So you started you described your kind of fourprong approach of the analysis of this particular case, same approach in every review you have done. Correct . Yes. Ultimately, ultimately you focused the majority as i understood the majority of your testimony, direct testimony, on the third and fourth pronlgs of that analysis. Would you agree with that . No. I would describe most of my testimony as being about the second and second prongs, whether mr. Floyd presented any threat and if so how much and the risk factors to mr. Floyd, the foreseeable effects of force. I apoll jids. You are right. The second and third. The fourth being the generally accepted police prak tests. Yes. All right. So lets start kind of from the younging. One of the things that a reasonable Police Officer is entitled to do is rely on training . In part. An officer is not entitled to rely on training thats unreasonable. So the training has to be consistent with generally accepted Police Practices. But if the training is based upon generally accepted Police Practices a reasonable officer is entitled to rely on his or her training. Agreed . Im not entirely sure what you mean by entitled to. I analyze if the actions are consistent with Police Practices so if the training is consistent and the behavior is consistent then yes but im not sure what you mean by entitled. When an officer approaches an arrest or use of force a thing that a reasonable Police Officer tacks into consideration is his or her traning and provided that that training is based upon generally accepted Police Practices they can rely on their training in assessing the risk, the threat, all of the things that you have discussed. Agreed . I think were asking two different questions why what does an officer rely on and how does that factor into actions and those are very different questions. Okay. Lets answer them one by one. Sure. How would you answer the first . Yes. Officers generally rely on their training, at least i certainly hope thats the case. And that also factors into the analysis. Correct . No. Im not assessing an officer and whether they satisfied the training standards. Im looking at whether they satisfied generally accepted Police Practices. It is irrelevant if is officer is doing what they are or arent trained to do. Fair enough. Okay. Now when an officer lets kind of look at the second and third prongs step by step a little bit again. You testified when a aurves, a reasonable officer is allowed to take into consideration what information they would have received before the use of force began. Agreed . Yes. You understand that officer chauvin was dispatched to this offense. Correct . Yes. That that dispatch was canceled. Correct . Yes. That a second set of officers respond or took over the call sort to speak. Correct . Yes. And that officer chauvin without the other officers on scene was dispatched in an emergent state. Agreed . Explain. Im sorry. The dispatcher made the determination that these officers needed assistance. Correct . Offhand i dont remember the justification for the response but ill accept that if thats your representation. If an officer is canceled from a call but then in an emergent situation that gives a reasonable Police Officer a heightened sense of awareness responding to the call. Agreed . It depends on the information is provided to the officer and the reason they respond, whether they respond code 3 lights and sirens or not. I would say it can but im not aware of any facts and circumstances that would apply in this case. In this particular case after officers king and lane initially responded to the call dispatch sent officer chauvin and officer thao code flee to the scene. You dont recall that . I will accept your representation of that. Ultimately it was then because they were taking somebody out of the car. Correct . Implying that a reasonable officer would know that someone was being removed from the car for some reason. Right . Yes, yes. I recall that now. Thank you. A reasonable officer if we could take what they know before the use of force into consideration would know that fact . Yes. A reasonable officer would have known prior officers removed mr. Floyd from the vehicle or from a vehicle. One of the factors that you discussed in terms of the graham v. Connor standard is the severity of the crime they were responding to. Right . Yes. And ultimately in terms of that, is it do reasonable Police Officers frequently encounter a situation starting out as a mild offense but elevates to something more serious . Its certainly possible. I dont think theres any reason to suggest that there were facts or circumstances of that here. If the officers who were initially on scene were struggling with an individual resulting in dispatch stepping up two additional officers code three that would at least imply that there was something more serious than just a counterfeiting . Not necessarily. Resulting in a Dispatcher Stepping up the call to code three . Yes. And so, again, reasonable Police Officers in addition to relying on their Training Provided it meets professional standards, they also can rely on the experience . With the same caveats, yes. Provided the prior experiences meet with professional standards . Right. Again, theres a difference between what an officer is relying on and whether the behavior meets the generally accepted Police Practices. And so one of those types of issues that a Police Officer may have experienced is perhaps people dont like to be arrested. Right . That is not uncommon. Right. And that people who are being arrested sometimes feign illness or feign some medical emergency in order to avoid being arrested. Agreed . So officers would know that when they get someone medical attention and turns out a qualified medical provider can say theres nothing here. Or that the persons behaviors change. Right . They say i have impl having a heart attack but then their behaviors are inconsistent with their words. They start doing Jumping Jacks before. I have never seen that. Okay. It is also again based on an officers erks appearance. It would be reasonable Police Officers may experience, one suspect in a car disrupting the Police Intervention to assist other people in the car from avoiding apprehension. Have you seen that . Im sorry. Can you ask that again . Sure. There would be again based on a reasonable Police Officers standards or experience, excuse me, that one person being detained by police may obstruct that Police Intervention to sort of protect or hide information about his or her passengers. That the individual whos being detained may resigs or obstruct in order to prevent his or her friends from being searched. Or identified. I i suppose at least in theory thats possible. In this case it is not clear that a reasonable officer in the defendants position would have been aware that there were passengers. Did you you said you spent 120 to 130 how shalls reviewing the body cameras. Correct . Yes. Something like that. You are aware where and the materials, of course. You are aware over whether officer chauvin and officer thao parked their veerk. Right . Yes. And you were aware based on the materials an additional squad car was there police. Yes. And that officer, where they were parked was essentially across the street from each other at the point that officer chauvin arrived, agreed . Yes, there were several cars on that street. Im saying im not sure what a reasonable officer and officer chauvins position would have known about the events that occurred on the scene prior to his arrival. He would know other officers also responded, correct . Yes. Based on the dispatch, we know that squad 830 from the Minneapolis Park Police arrived. Yes. When he arrived, he would be able to look across the street, see that park Police Officer engaged in whatever hes doing, presumably. Presumably, yes, if he looked across the street and saw that, i dont know what the officer was doing at the time or what an officer has to be attuned to his or her circumstances and surroundings, agreed . Yes. A reasonable Police Officer has to have a particular situational awareness, right . Yeah, yes. I wouldnt say a particular, i would say a general situational awareness, absolutely. When officer chauvin arrived, if he parked directly across the street from another squad car and was aware based on dispatch that another squad car was in fact, present, a reasonable officer would be generally aware of what all officers are doing, right . No. A reasonable officer who arrives without more specific information would not know whether that park Police Officer is talking to other witnesses about the Counterfeiting Call or other suspects or passengers in the vehicle that mr. Floyd was taken out of. Just seeing an officer interact with someone does not provide nearly enough context to understand, well, the context of that interaction. Unavailable to assist him based on what he she is doing. Objection. Overruled. The officer would, im sorry, can you please . Reasonable Police Officer arrived on scene, right . Looks to his left and sees an officer talking to two citizens. There was one individual in custody in handcuffs. A reasonable Police Officer would know the other officer all the way across the street is not going to be as much of an assistance as he could potentially be as hes approaching the yes, if i understand your question, yes. As the officer arrives there, he is in a better position to offer immediate assistance to the officers interacting with the handcuffed individual than an officer who is talking to whomever. Both their words and their actions, yes. If someone is saying, im going to cooperate, im going to cooperate, im going to cooperate, thats what theyre saying, their words are saying, but their actions are not cooperative, right, what is an officer to do in that situation, automatically believe that theyre going to some time cooperate . I think it depends on the situation. The suspects actions, agreed . So i really dont like greater. Sometimes i hear that formulation, but it doesnt make a lot of sense to me. If someone is running away, what does force greater than running away . I would say that an officer has to use or can use force that is proportional and reasonable to address an individuals noncompliance or resistance, assuming, of course, that they have Legal Authority to do so. The amount of force that is greater than the, greater than the force being used by the suspect in an effort to overcome that resistance, right . Are you asking me about the npd Training Materials specifically . Yes. Objection, your honor. Beyond the scope. Side bar. We are watching the defense cross examine the prosecutions final witness. Well bring in our experts. It seems to me, Claire Mccaskill, speaking to the former prosecutor in you that this is a debate over what the definition of reasonable is, is that what hes trying to sort of reveal to the jury . He is. And this is really a bad witness for him to cross examine to this extent. This is a smart expert who understands this material like the back of his hand. Not giving the jury any room to see somehow what the officer did was reasonable. Im not sure what hes gaining by trying to Smantically Maneuver The Witness in a place that this witness is going to refuse to go. David, the defense has gotten themselves in this situation before with the earliest witnesses, the bystanders on crossexamination who said some of the most devastating things about the defendant. Not going to convince him to say something. Typically the best approach is to listen to something that they say and build on what they are already telling you and i agree with claire. If they dont give you anything at all, move on because theyre only going to make you look bad. Has a hard time admitting they dont want to make the point they want to make and thats what youre seeing from the defense here. Thank you for watching along with us. Well sneak in a quick break. The next hour of deadline white house starts right after. Stay with us. Deadline white house starts right after. Stay with us hooh. That spin class was brutal. Well you can try the buicks massaging seat. Oohh yeah, thats nice. Can i use apple carplay to put some music on . Sure, its wireless. Pick something we all like. Ok. Hold on. Whats your buicks wifi password . Buickenvision2021. Oh, you should pick something stronger. Thats really predictable. Thats a really tight spot. Dont worry. I used to hate parallel parking. all together me too. Hey. You really outdid yourself. Yes, we did. The allnew buick envision. An suv built around you. All of you. Im not sure if theres anything i can say to my Family Members to convince them to take the covid19 vaccine. Im not even sure if im convinced. Hi darius, i think that people respond more to what we do than what we say. So after looking at all the data and the science about these vaccines, i got the vaccine. And i made sure my mom and dad got the vaccine. Because these vaccines are safe. And was there anything you could do . No. Not really. Remembering that day clearly wasnt easy for boehner. Why dont we take a little break . Hi, everyone. Its 5 00 in the east. That was former House Speaker john boehner breaking down in tears over the spectacle of Trump Supporters carrying out an attack on the United States capitol. Its the kind of Emotion Boehner was well known for but never before directed at supporters of the disgraced former president. And Senate Minority leader Mitch Mcconnell a dumb son of a witch, starts with a b. We wont replay the appearance and worth noting that he remains a threat at those appear to be radicalized. A comment liz cheney made in an appearance yesterday. As the party, we need to be focused on the future, we need to be focused on embraing the constitution, not embracing inrecollection. Soaking violence on mike pences role in trying to secure the capitol Andrea Mitchell vandalized the building. Mike pence tried to assert control in an urgent phone call and issued a startling demand. The inrecollection played out and beared the action on president donald trump. Underbelly of the current gop and a digestible bite. Become an unelected autocrat to get pushback from the attendees. People with live political careers, people who currently hold Elective Office and due to face voters soon might see benefit to distancing themselves from the most direct assault on our democracy undertaken by a president in the postwar era. Crickets. The gop is a gateway to extremism is where we start this hour. Carroll lentic and msnbc contributor is back. Also joining us, Elizabeth Newman, former Assistant Secretary of counterterrorism and Threat Prevention at the department of Homeland Security. Shes now the director of the republican accountability project. And the aforementioned tim miller. Since we quoted your piece, well start with you. Your thoughts. Well, look. Its one of those things where its not surprising but its shocking what happened in florida. We had the moment after the insurrection, right . Even your Lindsey Grahams and Kevin Mccarthys trying to distance from the events. Rubio and rick scott. Repeating all the things that led to the big lie. Didnt follow through and i think its just extremely important to understand that this is a party that is unapologetically right now an Insurrectionist Party and that donald trump said the quiet part out loud and willing to say what he means. Everybody else is trying to pussyfoot around it a little bit. Kind of for the coup but not really. He said, no, we were doing a coup here and everybody is silent because they are all part and parcel with him on it. Carol, i think we spend a lot of a lot of our time discussing this as a Security Story and then republicans as fill in the blank to the domestic. Gateway to extremism or playing footsie or explicitly green lighting a lie that is in the text of the dev warning that the Homeland Security and Law Enforcement issued at the beginning of the year . Such a good question, nicolle. As we watch this, tims points are so well taken. As we watch this, im reminded of a group of kids that have a big brother figure they look up to and also afraid of and agree to help start a little fire at the campfire and then it got Out Of Control and then they actually cant put it out. The fire that was lit in the spring and the summer of 2020 was donald trump tweeting the election would be rigged if he lost it. And the republicans continue to echo that but now heres the fire. They have a ton of voters in their districts who believe what they had been saying since the summer of 2020, imagine that. And its hard for them to see how they get reelected and keep their jobs unless they continue to play into this. Its fascinating because theres nobody more republican than Mitch Mcconnell. Theres nobody more republican than bill barr in terms of this party and both of them are on the record saying this election was not rigged, there is no evidence of fraud. But theyre drowned out by those kids that started the fire, the campfire in the summer. And i guess, elizabeth, where i think this conversation has to move to is what do you do about it . If after 9 11, four months later, still trying to debate whether or not it was a terrorist attack, which is where the republicans are. 12 House Republicans voted against medals to the Police Officers who protected them because insurrection was in the legislation that would have warded them the medal. Republicans as a party are still debating what actually happened. Can you imagine four months after 9 11, we debated it was peaceful . The idea there was this attack that brings john boehner to tears and its important context to say he was an emotional public official, but hes in tears in that interview with John Dickerson about what happened to the place he used to work. I imagine most democratic and republican Law Enforcement, most democrats and republicans who work there have some feeling that but for the actions of brave Law Enforcement, their lives might have been in danger. Maybe some of them diluted themselves or some of them know something we dont yet know, but most people feel the way john boehner feels about what happened. What do you do about one of the two Governing Parties in this country that cant call it what it is and isnt willing to do anything about it or prevent another one . Its a puzzling question, nicolle. One i think many of us are trying to figure out how you break through the clown shows that dominate the attention of those that are in the Republican Party because you really need to break through. The majority of republicans do not think violence is justified. And thats good news. They may believe that the election was stolen but they dont believe violence is justified. But we have a poll from last week from the university of chicagos security, project on security and they were assessing january 6th and they ran a poll in march by the gold standard. Its a very accurate poll and they found that 4 of adults in the United States believe that violence is justified because the election was stolen. That equates to 10 Million People. That is far beyond anything that Counterterrorism Experts were willing to guess at in the past few months. We were thinking maybe a million or two and when those numbers were floated, people were kind of like, that seems too much. We have 10 Million People according to this poll who think violence is justified because the election was stolen. We need republicans, those that are not violent and still may think the election was stolen, we need them to realize how grave the situation is. We do not have the Security Forces to handle 10 Million People in this country. We dont have the Security Forces to figure out which of the 50 million in the 50 million that believe the election was stolen are the 10 million that might commit an act of violence. It is just too big of a number. It is so grave. We really need the echo chamber, the party, the leadership to realize, this is a security problem. This is not a political problem. I dont have a lot of optimism that they will. They seem so much more interested in getting themselves reelected in 2022 and whos going to run in 2024 and rebranding themselves as the competent trump or the successful trump. Its kind of disgusting especially when you realize more lives are going to be lost because of this and its at their feet. And i hope Somebody Somewhere will finally get that message and take some responsibility but i dont have a lot of optimism right now. Tim, the somebody that is sort of telling truths to a party that used to think enough of him to elect their leader, House Republicans, is john boehner. Hes in the news for his book. Plenty of recrimination for all the pretrump republicans who didnt do more at the time. Let me show you more of john boehner on npr. I just find what President Trump did before the election, especially what he did after the election, he really abused the loyalty and trust that his voters and supporters placed in him by continually telling them that the election was going to be stolen before the election and then after the election, telling them that the election was stolen without providing any evidence, no facts. And thats the part about this that really disturbs me the most. People who were loyal to me, people who trusted me, i felt like i had a responsibility to be honest with them, straightforward with them. And to see this loyalty and trust be abused by President Trump, it was really kind of disheartening at best. So tim, he uses a couple of words and we need another two hours, a lot of people think the roots of some of this extremism lies in all the power he gave Tea Party Members of his own caucus to empower them to investigate benghazi but well put a pin in that for now. Abuse is the word that i latch on to as well as speaking to carols point about the embers sort of burning in the spring and summer. Donald trump started priming his voters to believe if he lost, it would only be because of fraud. There was no scenario he could legitimately lose and my question is, i think boehner gives us an exhibit to make the case that the republicans are a postfact movement. Theyre impervious to new information, data and facts whether its the election in some cases, the covid vaccine, but certainly the fact that what he laid out there couldnt be pierced by data or information or reporting. The fact that Rudy Giuliani couldnt present any evidence, bill barr couldnt find any, Mitch Mcconnell took on the floor of the senate on the day of the Electoral College count and said there wasnt any fraud. This is a base that i think the majority of them still believe the big lie. Any hope to achieve what Elizabeth Newman is essential to combat extremism, you cant get through to them with facts . No, and if you dont mind, ill take the pin out for a second to say. Be my guest. In september and october. Like when Elizabeth Neumann did and she came forward and spoke out and another other people did, it would have been nice to hear that before the election. But, we can put the pin back in it. Nobody has a lower view of donald trump than donald Trump Supporters, abusing their own voters. Abusing the people in jail or injured. They believe the lies and radicalized enough to storm the capitol on january 6th. They were killing their own voters with the way they were killing the coronavirus. Donald trump is the reason for this and so are all of his enablers and the facts are not going to be the way out of this. The facts that are too late. They need to stop this and theres nothing that we can do except for continue to shine a light on it and clean people off one at a time and make people realize the reality of whats happening there. Theyre being abused and theyre being lied to and its tearing the country apart and putting people in danger. It presents such a seat change in how republicans think they are. I mean, republicans think of themselves as people who care about doing the right things when it comes to National Security. Youve covered them. I worked for them. Republicans in the mold of mitt romney and john mccain, saw themselves as being the superior party. Youve got a party that looked the other way. Party looked the other way for four years when donald trump was doing god knows what with putin, not having any note takers with these and now Homeland Security questions. A party that does not seem to care about extremism growing in their own ranks. What do you do . I have always been worried about exactly what elizabeth was describing that the sort of stoking people to believe a conspiracy. He stoked a conspiracy all for his benefit to sort of rouse all these voters and supporters, really supporters, around him. Using a conspiracy to have a lovely fold of supporters that will always be in your back pocket. And unfortunately, tim is absolutely right that members seem so much more focused on getting elected, getting reelected, getting donations to help them campaign to get reelected and to reelect their friends. I fear, as i think you and i have discussed before, nicolle, its only going to wake them up when another january 6th happens. Its so shocking to think about but Something Like that may be required for people to get another wakeup call. I was amazed how people forgot 9 11 so quickly. They didnt forget it but the serious risks that made it possible and they stopped sort of following the mission of making sure it didnt happen again. January 6th seems to have been forgotten by january 12th. Elizabeth, other than congress. There are some members of congress that are quieter but have chosen to try to find way to respectfully push back which sounds a little odd especially if youre somebody in the camp where tim and i are. We went the bold big pushback but there are some that are trying to find that path of pushing back, saying no to the election was stolen but there is a need for people like me to say the election was not stolen and this is dangerous, we also need voices that were supporters of trump. Duly elected president and not the direction we want to go towards. There are a handful of members and congress. You mentioned adam. Butler was brave during the impeachment. Her profile is pretty quiet. Not on all of the shows but shes definitely trying to communicate with that trump voter why she did what she did during the impeachment. Why she believes the election was not stolen and those voices are really important to, as tim described it, a one by one peeling people away and wooing them back to reality. Deception is very deep on the right right now and we have to figure out a way to persuade at the Grassroots Level for people to come back to reality and usually thats not done through, unless we can break the Conservative Media Infotainment which would be difficult because of the money involved, but the Grassroots Level person to person with empathy and not yelling at people. Thats what i see some members of congress doing which is great but it tends to be fairly quiet and they are small in numbers. I hope its loud enough for the potential extremists to hear them. Thank you so much for joining us today. A record year for farright terrorism, pentagon announces new plans to knock out the growing number. But military leaders caution it will not be easy. You know its bad when the Republican Party is too far gone for corporate america. More than 100 top Business Leaders pushing back against the gops war on the right to vote. Now a major Hollywood Star is punishing georgia for its Voting Restrictions. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Continues after a quk icbreak. Dont go anywhere. We started with computers. We didnt stop at computers. We didnt stop at storage or cloud. We kept going. Working with our customers to enable the kind of technology that can guide an astronaut back to safety. And help make a hospital come to you, instead of you going to it. So when it comes to your business, you know well stop at nothing. These are real people, not actors, whove got their eczema under control. 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Finding understanding doesnt have to be. We can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. Go to autismspeaks. Org. Nearly 100 days after the deadly January 6th Insurrection in the midst of a National Reckoning over domestic extremism, the staggering state of the threat for the country. Domestic terrorism incidents have soared to new highs in the United States driven chiefly by white supremacists, antimuslim and antigovernment extremists on the farright. The surge reflects a growing threat from home grown terrorism not seen in a quarter century with rightwing extremist attacks ecliping causing more deaths. One effort is rooting out extremism in the military. Its an issue underscored by the fact one in six capitol riot suspects are veterans. The Defense Department announced the end of a standout period and new moves to tackle domestic extremism. As the New York Times notes, as the pentagon presented its path forward, a Working Group will be set up to examine how to better vet recruits and how to better educate Service Members who may be targeted by extremist organizations. Senior Defense Department officials acknowledge that one thing is clear. Rooting out extremist views of the military from alaska to florida will be uphill slog. Joining our conversation are two u. S. Army veterans. Ceo of the robin hood. To have you both together to talk about this, im really needing to hear from both of you on this. Why and how does this represent the current state of the u. S. Military . You first, wes. I think one thing were seeing is the military is as its always has been. Its a microcosm of this country. Its a microcosm of people from all Walks Of Life and from all places and the reality is that as were watching the larger tickup in the United States, the centers for strategic and International Studies shows of the 61 Terrorist Plots that had happened in the first eight months of the year that 41 had been white supremacist groups and so youre seeing how the military is just simply a reflection of the type of things that were seeing within our Large Society. Now, the important thing to remember though is that just like in times past, the military has a unique opportunity to actually be at the lead in terms of helping to change it. Helping to alter it and helping to uproot it and change our destiny. Thats really, i think, the important point where the military can and should and will have an Important Role in terms of getting us as a Large Society to a better place on this. And i guess, paul, i understand that as a reflection of our society, the numbers are proportional but the stakes are just so much higher. When the rightwing militias as they seem to have done plan ahead of time to conspire to chant hang mike pence, one, more trained in the stated objectives and two, it just represents such a Breach Of Trust in terms of traditional relationship that most civilians feel like they have with the military. Yes, military folks and veterans are very powerful and that power could be used to promote change, somebody like Tammy Duckworth or my friend wes moore here tackling hate and extremism for decades or it can be somebody recruited by the proud boys. It could be timothy mcvay. The most important thing i see here is a National Security strategic failure. There was a failure to recognize extremism at the National Security. Most of all, the commander of chief for the last four decades. Did not help the situation, even encouraged the situation and that failure by the commander in chief is what were living with now. The same way after 9 11, we failed to recognize extremists could take over the capitol. The leadership level and down at the pentagon that resulted in the situation that happened right now which presents the most urgent, most pressing, most serious National Threat they have. Thats why the military is taking it so seriously. Last year, you could fly a Confederate Flag in the barracks. Years and years of failures at the National Level recognizing extremism as a real threat. We are fighting uphill. Weve got to take it as seriously as we did terrorism. The countrys sort of painful racial reckoning after the killing of george floyd, champion confederate monuments, what did that look like inside and have a very public permission structure. Champion some of the same aims of white supremacists. What it still looks like to this day. I think about the fact that for many of the bases, as paul pointed out, for the bases i was trained on. Whether youre talking about places like fort hood or benning, fort braxton who was not just a confederate but all respects not a very good soldier. Thats who fort bragg is named after. The idea that the military still to this day has places and monuments where we are training the future leader, the future military leaders of this country for places that were named after people who, frankly, despise me. And so that is a part of this larger conversation that the military has to take its own personal measures of account for. And that if were going to say how do we do things to uproot this type of anger and these actions, it also has to start with who are we celebrating and how are we putting together a real platform to be able to address some of the harms that have happened for so long that people just did not put enough thought into. This may be too granular to get done here and if it is, i hope i can ask both of you to come back early and often, but i want to ask both of you about rightwing media and their influence on either, again, em boldening sort of the racist or intolerant views of what is just a reflection in society at this hour, at this moment, at this time and how much of that is sort of cheered . Is there a propaganda problem. I read that 40 of marines dont want to get the covid vaccine. You see this rise of extremism. I mean, what is the role of rightwing media in sort of spreading and fermenting some of those views, paul . Its critical. If we realize this has many as the domestic insurgence. You cant arrest and kill all of them. You have to try to attack the Power Structures at the top and the most effective thing was to vote donald trump out. That sent a clear message and now reverberating down to who hes chosen as secretary of defense, the policies that are changing to include women and lgbtq people. We change the Power Structures at the top and that includes conservative media to fight misinformation with good information. You have to go down to grassroots too. The same way you couldnt kill all the insurgents in iraq, you cant lock up every extremist in america. You have to provide with opportunities and alternatives. That usually means jobs and a way toward the future. And thats where i think as an example, president bidens Infrastructure Plan could actually help. If you give people job opportunities, a role in the future in red states that are resistant and dont want to take the covid vaccine, thats much more effective in combatting extremism than trying to lock them all up because you have to get there, you have to change the hearts and minds and that starts at the top but it has to also happen at the bottom. What did you both feel . When you watch the insurrection on tv, was it apparent to you that such large numbers of the participants were, a disproportionate number of the people who have been charged, i think i have the exact number. Well, in general, 6. 4 of the plots and attacks committed by active duty personnel up from 1. 5 in 2019, veterans and active duty members make up 25 of militia membership. And then the flip side, both address that the government and military, the target of 38 of the attacks but specifically on the capitol riot. Did you watch it and wonder how many members that were there part of the oath keepers were former military or was it obvious to you . It was that day was heartbreaking, but not terribly surprising. You know, we know that you look at a situation like that, that has never happened before. Not even during the civil war did we watch that. Yet at the same time, when you watched everything from tactics to badges that people had on there, you saw that this was the larger problem that was incorporating the people who proudly part of the unit that we serve with but these were members of the very same units. And so this is becoming something that when we think about what is the, what are the things that we have to incorporate . As we are incorporating tactics and practices within the service, as were putting together things from how to put together an operational model to how to put together a Strategic Plan on commencing with a mission, we also have to focus on things that others might be missing when it comes to the levels of primary education. How do we have a more inclusive service, how do we focus on things like history so people can understand real history in this country and focus on humanizing the people to your left and to your right, because without that element, if were just relying on people taking them as we see them without understanding the militarys role in this as well, then well continue to see the type of numbers and stats that show themselves on january 6th and beyond. Paul, can i just put you on the spot . Do you know anyone or is there anyone you serve with that you watch get pulled into the rightwing Militia Universe . A quarter of my facebook page. Like, various levels. We know this is a problem. This was predictable, this was preventable. This was a National Security threat that must be addressed now with the urgency that is required. Vigilance is the price of democracy. We have to be vigilant now and we have to say to lawmakers especially, i never thought id quote george bush but either youre with us or youre against us. Youre with america or the extremists. And right now, its gut check time. You serve in congress, youre either with america or the extremists and you have to pick because our National Security and the future of our country depends on it. My laugh was not at all related the our topic, but especially you, paul, somewhat earlier conversations have been around, so i appreciated the george w. Bush quote and i would like to put you both on the spot and ask you to come back. I dont think its something weve talked about enough. Im grateful to both of you. Thank you for spending time with us today. When we return, the growing pushback against the republicans assault on Voting Rights. Now a major Hollywood Blockbuster Will Smith Ditching Georgia over the restrictive new voting law. Thats next. 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The effort to defend and dare we say expand Voting Rights across the country appears to be developing a bit of a head of steam this afternoon. Were going to start in georgia. The epicenter of that fight. Today, variety reports that actor will smith and director Antoine Fuquay are going to protest over the states Voting Restrictions after a Major Development over the weekend. More than 120 ceos, Business Leaders, lawyers and experts representing the financial pharmaceutical travel, tech, retail and Transportation Industries joined together to ponder further action against republicanled Voting Restriction Laws nationwide. Lets bring into our conversation, our friend errin hains, editor at large at the 19th. So many days on the air and the headlines are so bleak and dire. We start with them, our bad for getting to a good news story on this front later in the program but this feels like if not a dam break then certainly a counterbalance to what we see from these republicanled legislatures. What do you think . You know, possibly, nicolle. Georgia has really had a boom in terms of movies that have been made there. Hollywood just kind of Making Georgia The Hollywood of the south and so for will smith and antoine to say theyre pulling this film literally named emancipation. A film about slavery. That does send a really strong message because georgias relationship with the movie industry is something that they have been cultivating over the past decade and so to see that threaten, really, is a big deal in that state. Just to look at the statement. At this moment in time, the nation is coming to terms with its history and vestiges of institutional racism. We cannot in good conscience provide economic support that enacts laws to restrict voter access. These are strong words and i dont know if you remember, but if you get into the Way Back Machine in 2018 after the gubernatorial contest in which stacy abrams would say that she did not win the election against governor brian, didnt become governor. Hollywood threatening to boycott oprah that election over the claims of Voter Suppression and Voter Disenfranchisement and said then, hollywood please dont boycott in response to this. Lets find other ways to fight this because of that relationship and because of the Economic Impact that she knew that if the dam would break in terms of hollywood boycotting georgia, the Economic Impact that would cause to residents. And i love going way back because the point though here is that this is a new law. Governor kemp did this to his state and to anyone who wanted to go to work on the set of emancipation, Governor Kemp is to blame. Some of the republicans who repeated the big lie, but this is, to me, the real warning that people should hear in corporate america, in sports, in entertainment is that these are crimes of comission. Republicans are comitting crimes of Voter Suppression if you look at them that way, the democracy as the victim here. Theyre doing them in realtime. Theyre happening right now. Theres a law speeding its way through the legislature in texas and i wonder if you could crystallize this moment with your sort of georgia knowledge and project out what you think will happen in other states. Do you think theres enough of an outcry to put the brakes on . 40 state legislatures. 46 more states that have not yet done yet what georgia already did. Do you think this impacts what any of those 46 states do next. Georgia was telling big lie before it was the big lie. Voter id laws were happening 15 years ago when i was covering the legislature and there were states that were mirroring those laws and i think what youre seeing especially in terms of the corporate response to this, you had Companies Like delta and cocacola that were trying to work behind the scenes as georgia was, as the law was moving through the legislative process and georgia earlier this year thinking that they could kind of deal with this in the atlanta way of business to kind of working with republicans under the gold dome. That didnt work. So now, youve got, and this is moving into other states. Youre already seeing in texas, corporations that are being kind of more publicly proactive in condemning these kinds of laws and really just kind of rallying around the idea that if america is a democracy, this country was built on a democracy, why should the idea of voting and Voting Rights be partisan . If corporations of people that those people should seek out in favor of Voting Rights. And so i think the, it was a failed strategy to kind of get this resolved Behind Closed Doors and so now, advocates are putting the pressure on these companies to really take up an old fight in a new day by pressuring these people before these lawmakers had a chance to pass these laws to try to really shame them into doing what can be the right thing economically, if not morally. Errin hains, you sound like a poet, doing the wrong thing in a new way. Thats a good way to put it. Thank you for spending some time today. When we return, the legal jeopardy facing florida congressman and matt gaetz growing by the minute. That update is next. Stay with us. He minute. That upde atis next. 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Thats going to take more than just bluster to fend off the mountain of legal Problems Gaetz is facing, which include a House Ethics Committee probe and the federal Sex Trafficking Investigation which could receive a big boost with cooperation from joel greenburg. Hes the florida Tax Collector and gaetz associate who faces dozens of federal charges. They expect charges. They expect greenberg to strike a plea deal in what is seen as a sign that he is likely to become a witness against gaetz. Records and interviews detailed a litany of accusations. Mr. Greenberg strutted into work with a pistol on his hip in a statement that does not allow guns to be openly carried he spent hundred of thousands of dollars to create noshow jobs for a relative and some of his groomsmen. Federal agents looking into the matter found five fake i. D. S into his wallet and backpack and kept digging. One lawyer describing greenberg like this. Quote, its like the tiger king got elected the Tax Collector. Greenberg indicted for Sex Trafficking involving a 17yearold girl, the same woman at the center of the investigation into gaetz, quote, greenberg reached out to Mutual Friends and tried to enlist him in his defense according to a Whatsapp Chat shared with investigators. Greenberg went so far to push gaetz to use his influence with trump for a pardon, including one who Heard Greenberg say it repeatedly. Gaetz denies all allegations, neither confirmed nor denied to politico that greenberg asked him about a pardon but he denies he asked trump for a pardon for himself. Joining our conversation, mark caputo, writer for politico. Your byline is on the story we reported on last week. We read a lot of it about the wingmanlike bromance between these two men. As we talk about heightened legal peril for matt gaetz, its important to understand how close they were, right, and how much legal jeopardy mr. Greenberg is in today. Yeah. Hes facing a world of hurt. Greenberg has 33 charges, ranging from Sex Trafficking a minor, host of financial crimes. Five days after he first got indicted he quit his days as Tax Collector. According to the indictment he committed c. A. R. E. S act fraud. In the case of gaetz and his allies, theyre monitoring what greenberg is going to do. If he happens to testify against him, greenberg has some problems, Credibility Problem as a potential witness. One of the charges that hes facing is falsely smearing a rival as a pedophile and having sex with the 17yearold. Whatsapp also details how greenberg, according to the chat, sort of tried to enlist others into his defense, the person he was discussing this with was a mutual friend of greenberg and gaetz. And that person who received the messages felt that greenberg was trying to set him up and draw everyone into his defense and told us it just feels like hes trying to run the same playbook against gaetz that he did against this rival who is a school teacher, who he falsely smeared as a pedophile. The case is developing and really the key witness in all of this is probably not greenberg. Its the former 17yearold woman who is at the center of this case. I say woman because now shes 20. She works in the pornography industry. Shes not returning messages for comment, not commenting currently. Is she telling prosecutors that matt gaetz had sex with her or knew she was having sex with greenberg when she was a minor . Thats problematic for matt gaetz if so. If not, prosecutors are probably left with a lesser charge when i say lesser, i mean it carries a smaller mandatory minimum of potentially violating the man act because gaetz and some of his associates went overseas to the bahamas, took a bunch of girlfriends, lady friends. They met on the seeking arrangement Sugar Daddy Website and engaged in Sexual Activity and the like at the resort. Youre not supposed to transport people for the purposes of committing or engaging in prostitution. The question is, was It Prostitution . Are these arpths from these Sugar Daddy Websites seeking arrangements, are they prostitution or not . That could be a thorny thing for prosecutors to muddle through. So far we havent seen any clear evidence that gaetz has committed these crimes or might have committed these crimes. Were kind of waiting on that shoe to drop, if theres a shoe and if it does drop. Im not asking you anything about how this reporting that you have today about the whatsapp messages came to be, so please dont misunderstand me, but im guessing if theres whatsapp messages and other News Organizations have reported on Actual Receipts for transactions of sex, this is an investigation that has a lot of documents and materials. Can you characterize where your understanding is, what you understand the investigation to be in, in terms of its phase . Do they have phones, communications . Do they have lots of things like whatsapp messages and receipts . I think yes, yes, yes and yes, if i can answer each one of your questions. What we havent seen currently is clear evidence that there are actually venmo receipts for sex. The daily beast reported gaetz had given 900 to greenberg at one point and the name check of the young woman at the center of this case, albeit she was 18 at that point. Just after she turned 18. After sending that 900 to greenberg, who then portioned that money out, according to the daily beast, to two or three women. Now it doesnt say in the subject line this is for sex, right . So its unclear exactly what its for. Thats where testimony and more investigation, more evidence comes in, to fill in those blanks. Were still in the process of filling in those blanks. Mark caputo, your reporting on this story has been stunning. Thank you for spending time with us today. Its great to see you. Thank you. Well sneak in a quick break and be right back. In a quick b and be right back. Great tool to help young homeowners who are turning into their parents. Now, remember, theyre not programs. Theyre tv shows. You woke up early. No one cares. Yes. So, i was using something called Homequote Explorer from progressive to easily compare Home Insurance rates. Was i hashtagging . 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Like a lot of people, i appreciate the reports you do, and i know its hard for people watching. Thank you. And people can contribute. Im glad youre mentioning that, in terms of how you source them. Yeah. One grim part of this that we all know as journalists is that this scale of death, to be honest, we would have reported on more people but it was the deadliest year in history, which means were not