>> thank you, your honor. >> can you tell us what your current occupation is? >> i'm a agent with the criminal apprehension. >> what does a senior special agent do? what does your job entail. >> i'm signed to the use of force investigation group. we conduct criminal investigations into uses of force incidents. >> are you a licensed peace officer? >> yes, sir. >> obviously you're not wearing a police uniform. well, when you work, do you have a uniform? >> generally no. we're generally plain clothes. >> and you mentioned -- well, when did you first become licensed as a peace officer? >> i started law enforcement career in 2007. >> and so let's run through your educational work experience first of all, did you receive degree? >> i did. >> i have a bachelors of criminology from the university of tampa in 2006. >> after that, did you go into the work of law enforcement? >> i did. >> where were you first hired to work in law enforcement? >> i started my career at the new york city police department, the nypd. >> and so did you do some training then to be an nypd officer? >> i did. the nypd has a six month training academy that i successfully completed. >> is that when you then obtained your license to be a peace officer? >> yes, sir. >> and that was about what year? >> approximately 2007. >> and when you became -- well, let me ask this, how long did you wok for the nypd? >> 4 1/2. >> and can you describe for the jurors, you know in, what capacity you worked as a peace officer in new york city? >> i was a police officer and initially assigned to the 32nd precinct in harlem, new york. my duties were as impact officer. interacting with the community, addressing quality of life issues. i was then transferred to manhattan task force and the task force officer. from there i was -- i'm sorry, there i was assigned to quality of life issues as well as violent crime issues, narcotics, and guns. >> so all that time spent on the streets essential sfli. >> correct. >> and some point did you leave the new york city police department? >> i did. >> and what was the next job that you took in law enforcement? >> i was hired as a special agent with the drug enforcement administration or the dea. >> what year was that? >> approximately 2011. >> what were your duties? >> address a large scale, long term investigations into narcotics. >> into what? >> narcotics. >> okay. >> drugs. >> and you had to do training for that job? >> yes, sir. >> how long was the training for that job. >> approximately 4 1/2 months in quantico, virginia. >> and what kind of -- well, after doing the training, were you assigned to a specific location? >> i was, sir. >> where were you assigned? >> to an enforcement group in new york city and then transferred to arizona where the primary responsibility was investigating cartel activity. >> and when you say cartel, we're talking drug cartel? >> correct. >> and at some point then did you leave the dea? >> yes. >> and what year was that? >> 2013. >> why? >> to move back to minnesota. >> and when you moved -- well, you say back to minnesota. had you been here before? >> yes. this is where i'm from. >> and so when you went to the new york city police department, that was a change of locations for you? >> it was, yes, sir. >> so 2013, you said you kaum back to minnesota? >> correct. >> and did you find work related to law enforcement field? >> yes, sir. >> describe that for the jurors. >> i went to corporate investigations, focused on insurance white collar based kind of work. >> and during that time period, did you complete some more education? >> yes, sir. >> what was that? >> actually, the masters in business administration from southern new hampshire. >> what year was that? >> approximately 2014. >> and at some point did you leave that corporate investigative work? >> yes, sir. >> where did you go from there? >> i went to the metro trans it police department. >> that's here in minnesota? >> here in minneapolis. >> and how long did you work there? >> very short time. >> okay. where did you go from there? >> i was hired from the state of minnesota as the fraud agent. >> is that part of the state government? >> correct. >> what agency is that? >> department of commerce. >> when you worked at the department of commerce, were you a licensed peace officer? >> yes, sir. >> probably a lot of people don't know that there are licensed peace officers in the department of commerce, right? >> yes, sir. >> what kind of investigations did you do in the department of commerce. >> primarily white collar investigations. >> at some point did you leave the department of commerce then? >> yes, sir. >> and where did you go after that? >> the bureau of criminal apprehension. >> when were you hired by the bureau of criminal apprehension? >> 2018. >> and that's where you are today still? >> correct sir. >> so initially licensed in 2007. >> yes. >> did you maintain your license as a peace officer during that entire time period? >> no. >> when -- >> 2013 to 2016 i was not. >> that's when you were working -- from middle of 2013 to 2016 i was not. >> and that's when you were doing the corporate work? >> correct. >> as a licensed peace officer, you are required to take some on going educational credits kreshgt? >> yes, sir. >> you have done that throughout your career with the exception of that two year period? >> yes, sir. >> when you were hired at the bca in 2018, what were you hired to do? >> i was hired in the homicide unit. we investigated major homicides as well as officer involved incidents. >> when you hired at the bca, are you required to go some -- through some training specific to working for the bca? >> yes, sir. >> can you describe for the jurors the kind of training that you had to do when you started with the bca? >> there is some -- there is training that is involved with writing search warrants, report writing, as well as some tactics, interviewing interrogation as well. >> and do you also have to spend some time at the medical examiner's office? >> yes, sir. >> describe that for the jury. >> i recently completed the forensic pathology program where i was present with the medical examiners conducting autopsies. >> and are you currently working on an additional educational goal? >> yes, sir. >> can you tell the jurors what that is? >> i'm currently third year of dock tral student at st. mary's university minnesota focused on education and leadership. >> you have told us that you work for the bureau of criminal apprehension. >> yes, sir. >> commonly referred tos athe bca, correct? >> correct. >> can you describe for the jury what is the bca? >> so the bca is a state law enforcement agency. we're under the umbrella of department of public safety. kind of delineated into four divisions, investigative division and i'm a part of and we have information services, a laboratory as well as a training section. and we provide services to law enforcement agencies as well as the community. >> so your jurisdiction is where? >> state of minnesota. >> and on may 25th of 2020, what were your duties as a special agent? >> so i'm currently the case agent, lead investigator for this investigation. so i was notified of the incident fairly quickly. >> and you mentioned earlier about currently having a different assignment. can you explain to the jury how your assignment changed from may 25th of last year to today? >> so back then i was in the metro homicide unit which investigative both homicides as well as officer involved incidents. there is a newly formed investigations unit that i'm now a part of solely focuses on investigations. involving use of force. >>. >> you mentioned earlier the term case agent? >> correct. >> what does that mean? >> case agent is another term for the lead investigator on a particular case. >> and obviously you're here to testify about the incidents that led to the death of george floyd last year, correct? >> correct. >> and you were the case agent for that case? >> yes, sir. >> and when you are the case agent, are you responsible for knowing the course of the investigation? >> yes, sir. >> are you involved in all aspects of the investigation. >> somewhat, yes, sir. >> and that runs from beginning to end? >> yes, sir. >> so taking you back to may 25 of 2020, you got called out regarding this incident? >> yes, sir. >> can you just describe for the jurors how you get that initial call and what you do in response? >> my supervisor called me approximately 9:45. and informed me there was an incident that occurred in minneapolis involving minneapolis police department. it was determined that myself, agent phil and agent xul scott mueller would report to city hall. we met at minneapolis city hall and determined that agent mike phil would have to go to the scene and myself and agent scott mule woehr head to room 100 at minneapolis city hall. >> so did you understand as to why as bca agents are being called to this incident? >> we knew that some form of critical incident occurred. at that point we didn't have a huge amount of information. >> when you say critical incident in this context, what did it mean to you at that time? >> an incident involving a police officer and potentially a civilian that could have caused harm. >> so on may 25th of 2020, was the bca responding to calls of critical incidents within the city of minneapolis? >> yes. >> and so had you developed that is the bca a process for responding to those calls? >> yes. we had critical incident protocols. >> and when you arrived at the other agents of city hall, that's where the administrative offices are, correct? >> correct. >> so then at some point the decisions made for mike phill to go to the scene at 38th and chicago? >> yes, sir. >> and you and agent mueller stayed at city hall, correct? >> correct. >> all right. and when you arrived there, did you give what we call a briefing about what was known so far? >> yes, sir. >> and did you learn who the involved officers were? >> we did, yes, sir. >> and who are those officers that you learned at that time were involved? >> officer derek chauvin, officer alexander king, officer lane and officer thao. is. >> did you initiate the critical protocols for this incident? >> yes. >> is part of that taking photographs of each officer? >> yes, sir. >> and were the officers at city hall that evening? >> yes, sir. >> i should ask you. you initially got the call about 9. 456789 p.m.? >> correct. >> do you recall about what time you arrived at city hall? >> approximately 30 to 40 minutes later. >> and -- your honor, can we put this up just for the witness please? i want to show you exhibit 279. >> do you recognize that photograph? >> yes, sir. >> did you take that? >> yes, sir. >> when was that -- is this a true and accurate representation of what you saw when you took that photograph that evening? >> yes, sir. >> your honor, offer exhibit 279. >> any objection? >> no, your honor. >> 279 received. >> asked to publish, your honor. and do you recall approximately when this was taken? >> shortly after i arrived at city hall. >> and through subsequent investigation that you've done, did you learn the proximate weight of the defendant around this time period? >> yes, sir. >> and what was that weight? >> approximately 140 pounds. >> sorry? >> 140 pounds. >> and as a police officer since, what, approximately 2007, right? >> yes, sir. >> are you familiar with -- i call the duty belt? equipment that he's wearing? >> yes, sir. >> can you just describe for the jurors, you know, general what is present on his duty belt? >> initially firearm, handcuffs, mace, usually there is a radio holder, a radio associated with that as well and multiple magazines. >> magazine is what? >> a magazine holds the bullets for the firearm. >> and any body armor that he is currently wearing? >> yes. it appears he has a vest on. >> based on your experience as a peace officer, were you able to estimate proximate weight of the equipment that the defendant is wearing in this photograph? >> approximately 30 to 40 pounds. >> we can take that down, thank you. while you're there at city hall, did you endeavor to collect other items of evidence or for the investigation? >> yes, sir. >> and what other items did you acquire? >> critical incident protocols is acquiring the officers' involved uniform as well as their equipment including their firearm. >> and did you also acquire some videos? >> yes, sir. >> and on may 25th, of 2020, were you aware that minneapolis police officers wear body cams? >> yes, sir. >> and did you acquire then the body cam videos for the four involved officers? >> yes, sir. >> and can you just describe for the jurors how that process is done? >> the minneapolis police department crime lab retains the actual physical body worn camera down loads it and provides it then to the bca to me. >> and so you acquired those four body cam videos? >> yes, sir. >> in the course of the investigation you acquired some other videos as well? >> yes, sir. >> with regard to the body cam videos, the four involved officers, you have watched all of those, have you? >> yes, sir. >> those have a time stamp on them, correct? >> they do, yes, sir. >> and do they appear to be consistent with each other in the time stamps? >> yes, sir. >> while you were at city hall, did you collect some other data about the incident? >> yes, sir. i collected a cag report. >> can you describe for the jury what is hay cag report? >> it is a transcription of all the radio traffic associated with the specific incident. >> any other data then that you acquired there? >> the milestone video. >> what is that? >> milestone video is a video city video that is positioned at the street level at various places throughout the city. >> and so you learned that there was a milestone video of the location of the incident? >> yes, sir. >> and you obtained that? >> yes, sir. >> how about any information about the 911 call or that traffic? >> yes, i also retained the audio file from the 911 call. >> while you were there at some point did you learn about a facebook video of the incident? >> yes, sir. >> how did you learn about that? >> deputy chief eric flores notified me of a video that surfaced on facebook. >> and were you able to watch that video at that time? >> yes, sir. i was shown the video shortly there after. >> do you recall if you watched the whole thing or parts of it? >> i believe it was a portion of the video. >> and throughout your investigation of this case, do you come to learn that who was the person making that video or filming that? >> darnella frasier. >> so after your duties at city hall, did you proceed to the scene? >> yes, sir. >> and when you arrived at the scene, were there other bca individuals there? >> yes, sir. >> who all was there still at that point? >> i met with agent mike phill and crime scene team lead mckenzie anderson. >> do you recall about what time it was that you arrived at the scene? >> approximately 2:00 to 3:00 in the morning of the 26th. >> and you mentioned the crime scene team. can you just describe generally for the jurors what you mean by the crime scene team? >> crime scene team is members of our bc and laboratory who go out and forensically collect evidence in support of criminal investigations. >> so they investigate crimes at the scene? >> yeah. they collect and process crimes at the scene. >> and who was the -- let me ask you this way. how many members are there of the crime scene team tippic sfli. >> two to three and a special operations agent who is solely assigned to take video and photographs. >> and so there is a team leader? >> correct. >> and who was that for this case? is. >> mckenzie anderson. >> when you arrived at the scene, did you learn about some vehicles at the scene that were involved in the incident? >> yes, sir. >> and what were those vehicles? can you describe them? >> a blue mercedes benz and minneapolis squad car 320. >> do you know what style of vehicle the mercedes was? >> i don't. >> that's what i was trying to get at. yes. >> and so those two vehicles, did you see them at the scene? >> yes. >> do you recall where they were located? >> i believe they were on the south side of 38th. >> and with regard to the squad car, the minneapolis police squad car, did you learn anything about contents of that vehicle? >> yes. >> what did you learn? >> i learned that two $20 bills were in an envelope in the trunk area of the vehicle as well as other items that related to this incident. >> so what did you do with regard to that envelope? >> i seized those at the scene, that envelope at the scene. >> so you -- by seizing it, you took it with you. >> correct. >> and did you open up that envelope and see what the contents were? >> initially, yes. >> and so you mentioned $20, correct? >> yes. >> and your honor, if i can show the witness only please exhibit 198. >> sidebar? >> sure. >> members of the jury, we're going to take our lunch break at this time. let's reconvene at 1:15. >> thank you, your honor. well that, is our cue for coming back on the air. welcome to "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. you've been watching day eight of the testimony in derek chauvin's murder trial. you've been hearing testimony from james reyerson who questioned chauvin's partner after last may's incident before reyerson prosecutors used much to have day to continue focusing on chauvin's actions once george floyd was handcuffed. jurors heard testimony from jodie stiger who first took the stand yesterday. a use of force expert said that chauvin's actions served no purpose once mr. floyd was in cuffs and lying on the street. >> the handcuffed were not double locked? double locked meaning that they were not -- they could continue to ratchet tighter as the person moved. >> were you able to hear instances of what you recognize to be ratcheting during the review of the body worn cameras? >> yes. >> so in the principle of pain compliance, if i understand your testimony, you would inflict pain for the purpose of having the subject obey your command? >> yes. comply. >> what if there is no opportunity for compliance? >> then at that point it's just pain. >> chauvin's attorney pressed him on whether police conduct can look bad on video but still be lawful. >> do you participate in a training or present a training or have anything to do with a training called awful but lawful or lawful but awful, something like that? >> yes. >> so you would agree that general concept is sometimes the use of force, it looks really bad. right? >> yes. >> and sometimes it may be so -- it may be caught on video, right? and it looks bad. right? >> yes. >> but it's still lawful. >> yes, based on the department's policies or based on that state's law. >> stiger's testimony came after six other experts called by prosecutors have testified that derek chauvin used excessive force against george floyd. shaquille brewster has been covering the story for us and i'm joined by two legal analysts. shaq, let me -- i guess the thing that was so striking is how long the defense decided to cross examine this prosecution expert. >> that's right, chuck. definitely seemed like one of the more extensive cross-examinations that we've heard from eric nelson as part of this process. let's just go to the point of why the prosecution brought up this witness. this is one of the first expert witnesses that we heard from. he's not from the minneapolis police department. instead, he reviews force of policies. he works for the los angeles police department and was paid to come on and provide his expert testimony. and the key thing that the prosecution wanted to get out of him is when he said that the use of force that he saw derek chauvin and the other three former minneapolis police department officers using was that it was excessive. that based on the objectability or -- that it was objectively not the right use of force. the term he used was it was not objectively reasonable. that is the legal standard that eric nelson pushed him on. you heard eric nelson try to make the points, points he's been suggesting in the past during other cross-examinations including this one interesting moment, chuck. i hesitate to play this video. but i want you to hear it because this is a suggestion that eric nelson makes. it's the first time we heard this suggestion and the key thing here is that based on the pull notes, this is definitely ai moment you saw the jurors taking note. listen to that line of questioning we heard from eric nelson. >> stop. please. >> did you hear what he said? >> no. i couldn't make it out. >> does it sound like i ate too many drugs. listen again. >> so you hear that suggestion. he's trying to say that george floyd said while he was restrained, ate too many drugs after playing that video. that was the first time we heard. that we went through some court documents, pretrial motions that were filed in the past and it did not show up in there. so you get a sense of the points that eric nelson and the defense are trying to make as they go through and cross examine this witness. it is one of the longer cross-examinations that we heard. you heard eric nelson very focused, going from a list of questions and checking through the points as he had this cross-examination, chuck. >> shaq, what do we know about i saw some news that the prosecution may be close to resting here. this week, early next week, how close do you think we are? >> yeah. that is us reading a little -- a few tea leaves. we heard the judge say yesterday after we heard from officer mckenzie, the officer who trains on cpr, that she will actually be a defense witness as well and the judge told her she should expect to be called next week, possibly tuesday. if she's a defense witness that, means the defense will be presenting the case as early as tuesday which means the prosecution will be resting its case within the next few days. so that gives us a sense of the time line. we know the prosecution gets to call up rebuttal witnesses. but getting a sense that we're moving on, you saw the bystanders and use of force. we know the medical examiner at a certain point will testify. they'll go into how george floyd died, cause and manner of death. we get the sense that it is starting to wrap up at least in the next couple of days, chuck. >> shaq, thank you. let me bring in paul and chuck here. paul butler, what should we -- what did you glean from how long the defense decided to cross examine this witness from the prosecutor's side. >> chuck, the sergeant is a paid expert witness for the prosecution. he earned $10,000 for this case. that may detract from his credibility with some jurors. but his credentials will impress others. he's trained over 3,000 officers on the use of force. so when he bluntly stated that chauvin used excessive force, that carries some weight. he did offer the defense a slight concession. he said he kicked at the officers earlier in the encounter so they were justified at using force at that point. but once mr. floyd was on the ground in handcuffs, the officers should have pinned him down. they should have stopped pinning him down. and chuck, i don't think the jury actually needs to hear from noncops. that's something they heard from to understand that point. it's common sense. >> right. >> police work as a component, that is violent. but cops should only use that violence when absolutely necessary. >> chuck rosenberg, we heard graham versus connor talked about. it's a foundational case for use of force policy. the significance of it as it relates to this case. >> right. well all use of force as paul was suggesting operates on a continuum, right? so use of force is appropriate. it's not a pretty thing. but it has to be proportional and once the defendant is not resisting or is in custody or in this case like mr. floyd, prone and handcuffed behind his back, and expressing that he has difficulty breathing, it has to stop. and so it's a really important principle. and that's one of the reasons why i thought the sergeant stiger from the lapd was a good witness for the prosecution. these are complex calculations that an officer has to make and remake on the scene. but like paul butler just said, at some point it becomes obvious. at some point it's clear to everybody, including on the jury, including to nonexperts that force is no longer appropriate or necessary. and so his conclusion, his opinion as an expert he is permitted to officer opinions, something a fact witness or a lay witness cannot do, that the force was both unnecessary and deadly becomes important to the prosecution in this case. >> paul, i want to turn to testimony that shaquille brewster pointed to where the defense tried to help the witness hear what perhaps the witness didn't hear. but what it really means is this issue of drug use is clearly at the center of the defense, of the defense's case here. how do you expect the prosecution to continue to proceed on these lines before they rest? >> the medical examiner will be key. the medical examiner official report says that the cause of death is heart failure. but importantly, not asphyxiation. and so the prosecution will present other witnesses to counter that point, to suggest that mr. floyd died of asphyxiation that was caused by chauvin's knee on floyd's neck. and it's just going to get dirtier for the jury from now on. chuck, i hope they're holding their noses. the defense a big part of its case will be video from a previous arrest of mr. floyd where he is shown consuming drugs right before the cops catch him so the cops don't get the drugs. the prosecution vigorously tried to get that excluded saying it wasn't relevant. but the judge is going to let the jury see it. >> chuck rosenberg, what did you think of the defense attorney's decision to try to help the witness hear what they may not have heard? >> right. so an interesting thing about cross-examination, chuck, it is absolutely appropriate to do something on cross-examination that you're not supposed to do on direct-examination. on direct-examination, you ask open ended questions. who, why, what, when, where? what did do you next? what did you see or hear? on cross-examination, to your question, chuck, absolutely appropriate for the defense attorney to lead the witness. did you hear him say x? do you agree with the following proposition? you can ask those leading questions and are perfectly admissible. so even if the witness didn't quite hear what the defense attorney thought mr. floyd said or that somebody said in that video clip, the leading nature of the questions are an appropriate tactic on cross-examination for a defense attorney. perfectly okay to try it. it doesn't mean the witness have to agree with you but perfectly okay to try it. >> shaq, you said you got a pull note with interesting juror observations you wanted to share. what do you got? >> yeah, chuck. you know this comes in contrast to what we saw yesterday. we know by the end of the day, one juror nodded off. other jurors were yawning and looking around. today consistently they according to the two reporters in the room, they've been taking notes, paying attention, going in and out of notes. so sometimes they'll watch a little bit more then they start taking notes. one note we did see is as it got closer to the lunch break, you start to see people get a little more fidgety. i know we keep talking about that. that is something i was doing myself as we got closer to this break after listening to hours and hours of testimony. so we're watching the testimony. it is getting more dense. we do expect that medical testimony to come up at a certain point. i think it might not be as compelling as what we saw visually as we saw last week, chuck. >> hey, paul, i'm curious. you know, the attorneys in that room are not immune to watching the jury get antsy. and if you're the defense here, right, the prosecution -- they're wearing out the jury and the jury might lose patience with the defense because, like, come on, wrap it up. we already know what the case is. do you think that the defense attorneys will feel that pressure? >> no. you know, i believe in the jury system. i think jurors understand that some aspects of a trial are tedious. but they're still necessary even if it's for legal reasons that the jury doesn't quite get. the jury is also instructed that mr. chauvin does not have to present a defense. it's the heavy burden of the government to prove hum guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. but that's his option. and so i think that jury will listen very carefully because they know they've only heard one side of this story. >> shaquille brewster and paul and chuck rosenberg, appreciate all of you helping us unpack the first half of today's testimony. thank you. of course, we'll have more coverage of the derek chauvin trial as soon as they come back from lunch break. coming up, president biden is scheduled to speak live from the white house, trying to sell the infrastructure plan. it is already hitting a few roadblocks. he is also tinkering with the tax way -- for the taxes in order to pay for it. but first, here's a quick look at some life coming back after lockdown. voiceover: riders. wanderers on the road of life. the journey is why they ride. when the road is all you need, there is no destination. uh, i-i'm actually just going to get an iced coffee. well, she may have a destination this one time, but usually -- no, i-i usually have a destination. yeah, but most of the time, her destination is freedom. nope, just the coffee shop. announcer: no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at $79 a year. voiceover: 'cause she's a biker... please don't follow me in. voiceover: 'cause she's a biker... since you're heading off to school, i got you this brita. dad... i just got a zerowater. but we've always used brita. it's two stage-filter... doesn't compare to zerowater's 5-stage. this meter shows how much stuff, or dissolved solids, gets left behind. our tap water is 220. brita? 110... seriously? but zerowater- let me guess. zero? yup, that's how i know it is the purest-tasting water. i need to find the receipt for that. oh yeah, you do. age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein. it's moving day. and while her friends are doing the heavy lifting, boost® high protein also has key nutrients jess is busy moving her xfinity internet and tv services. it only takes about a minute. wait, a minute? but what have you been doing for the last two hours? ...delegating? oh, good one. move your xfinity services without breaking a sweat. xfinity makes moving easy. go online to transfer your services in about a minute. get started today. welcome back. the european medicines agency announced there is a possible link between the astrazeneca vak sean and blood clots. they maintain the benefits that vaccine outweigh those risks. what it's worth, astrazeneca vaccine is not one that the united states is currently using. the same time uk health regulators announced anyone under 30 should not take the astrazeneca vaccine. other countries like canada and germany limited that to older people. the more transmissible b 117 variant known as the uk variant is now the most common strain in the united states adding even more urgency in the race to vaccinate and maybe there are five states here that ought to get extra vaccine. five states are now accounting for more than 40% of all new covid-19 cases, new york, michigan, florida, pennsylvania, and new jersey. that felt like those were the first states to spike and here the last states to spike. michigan alone, for what it's worth, doubled its number of new cases in just two weeks. joining me is infectious disease professor and an nbc medical contributor. doctor, i want to start with the astrazeneca vaccine. look, this is the type of report and you and i both know this that i wonder if it makes harder for our fda to give even emergency approval. i say this because these warning that's have come out about it, they're going to fuel some of the anti-vaccine crowd. >> it's important that we're transparent about the findings. i think that is what build the trust the long term. let's talk about what we're talking about. we're talking about a very rare incident in the uk is thought to be 1 in 100,000 people. and potentially over all even less than that of this condition that is more likely to happen in younger people which is not the same risk factors as like immuunizing older people but an immune reaction when you get the vaccine, you create anent qui body that then, you know, attacks your own blood cells that are able to allow you to clot. and so very rare as it stands. i think that the stands that the benefits still outweigh the risky think still stands. i think that our fda will take a look at it, may adjust qualifications based on the idea that younger people may be at higher risk. but not only that, i think it sort of also tells us that we need to be aware that when you rollout a vaccine at this high a rate, you will discover potentially rare side effects. i don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. i think we should take this as a step of why surveillance is necessary and make a decision on the risk/benefit as we find more data. >> right. i'm curious. look, i no he that johnson & johnson sort of made the more traditional way vaccines are made with the virus itself. we have this new mrna technology, moderna and pfizer are using. what is the technology behind astrazeneca's? >> astrazeneca is using a similar technology to what johnson & johnson is doing is using another type of a virus. so it's a virus that is not going to cause the symptoms in you but is going to allow you to deliver instruction from your body. very similar to what they're doing to help you build spike protein so you're building the antibodies. we don't know what the mechanism -- i want to step back and say that what, you know, what the european medical agency has said is that it's plausible because the kind of blood clots are happening, are happening in younger people. but it's not confirmed yet. so more studies are still necessary in trying to figure out what the mechanism would be about what could potentially make this vaccine different from the other vaccines or is it possible there is a very rare incident underlying all of vaccines that we haven't discovered. but again, in all of the cases, you're talking about very small numbers as w.h.o. says, as the european medical agency said, the risk of a mortality from covid-19 is so much higher than the potential or mortality from even the rare conditions that we're finding. >> i want to talk about the b 117 variant and what we're seeing in these five states accounting for nearly half of all our new cases. we heard the governor of michigan last week ask for basically to reallocate vaccines based right now on need rather than population. what say you? it seems like a pretty obvious answer. let's -- i mean if the only thing we have left to beat this virus since we know there is virus sort of lockdown fatigue, it's vaccines. should we be altering our vaccine rollout to target the five states right now? >> chuck, we predicted this, right. b-117 is the most common variant and it has because it's more transmissible and potentially more lethal as well. so increasing vaccines is a good idea. i don't think it will work alone. remember, a zero sum equation now. when you give more vaccines to michigan, you're taking away from other states. on its own, it's not going to be enough because if you don't take the rest of the measures like reducing the indoor capacity and keeping those masks on, then you're leaving a hole at the bottom of your bucket which is going to keep increasing the transmission in the community. the other steps that i think the cdc may be doing is investigating what is causing some of the outbreaks and the director mentioned youth sports and clusters of cases and incarcerated populations. the other thing be doing is increasing testing. if you find out you're positive, you may change your behavior. the other thing is flushing the areas where therapies like antibodies to those high risk that get infect kd quickly get the therapies and infections don't turn into optizations and potentially deaths. >> well, the youth sports issue, i mean, as somebody who used uj yoerts is a life line for my 13-year-old, that got this parent's attention. i think it will get a lot of parents' attentions. doctor, appreciate your expertise, always. thank you. >> thank you. up ahead, we're just minutes away from president biden's planned remarks to sell his infrastructure plan. we'll bring those remarks you to live when it happens. plus, the biden administration is under some increasing pressure as record breaking numbers on a company children continue to cross the border or be left at the border. it's a lost little boy's face is the center of this escalating problem. e is the center of this escalating problem. [music: “you're the best” by joe esposito] [music: “you're the best” by joe esposito] [triumphantly yells] [ding] don't get mad. get e*trade and take charge of your finances today. what happens to your body language don't get mad. when your underarms are cared for? ♪ ♪ it shows! our new dove advanced care formula is effective... and kind to skin, leaving underarms cared for and you... more confident and carefree. we started with computers. we didn't stop at computers. we didn't stop at storage or cloud. we kept going. working with our customers to enable the kind of technology that can guide an astronaut back to safety. and help make a hospital come to you, instead of you going to it. so when it comes to your business, you know we'll stop at nothing. ♪ ♪i've got the brains you've got the looks♪ ♪let's make lots of money♪ ♪you've got the brawn♪ ♪i've got the brains♪ ♪let's make lots of♪ ♪uh uh uh♪ ♪oohhh there's a lot of opportunities♪ with allstate, drivers who switched saved over $700. saving is easy when you're in good hands. allstate click or call to switch today. welcome back. there are now more than 19,000 unaccompanieded migrant children in u.s. custody right now. like this child. a 10-year-old boy who was discovered by a border patrol agent alone and afraid in the rio grande valley. the boy tearfully tells the border agent he woke up to find the group he came with had left him behind. found that the team came with had left him behind. >> that was hard. border protection issued a statement saying, scenes like these are all too common as smugglers continue to abandon children in did he say late areas, with zero regard for their well-being. joining us now is nbc's julia ainsley. julia, this is a picture of what many people have described. desperate families, desperate to give their kids a better life, putting them in the hands of these smugglers. heartless coyotes, whatever you want to call them, and caught at the heart of it are these young children. >> that's right, chuck. what we're hearing more and more is there are a lot of families who are having to send their children without them, without their legal parents and guardians, and choosing to send them with smugglers instead because of administration policies that allow children to stay in the united states while expelling everybody else, that this is their best chance of safety. we also know that this isn't the first time children have been abandoned. we saw videos just last week of three and five-year-old girls being dropped over a border wall. we know this boy is from nicaragua and will be transferred to hhs. he's been medically screened, he's been fed. the trauma will last for these children, and of course the biden administration is in a tough spot because the alternative is to not let any of these children in where they could be in worse conditions in their home country or mexico. >> julia, there is potentially a third door, and that is to start them in another country. whether it's honduras and how stormy they are by climate change, guatemala. it does seem as if the most humanitarian thing here to do would be that. is there any real talk of that? >> there is. there's certainly talk about restarting the central american minors program that would allow children who have family here in the united states to apply for asylum from their home countries. that's all part of the long-term plan, but it's the short-term solutions that are needed now. and we understand the biden administration is scrambling to open up more facilities to shelter more children, but you're right, that doesn't do anything about the people who are coming now, and as we found from our reporting, chuck, the number of smugglers advertising openly for services like this is just -- it's prolific across facebook. it's hard not to run into these posts where smugglers are openly saying, please pay us $8,000. we'll get your child to the u.s. safely. of course, it doesn't end safely, and those who do come here, it's never an easy journey. so we're seeing while all these solutions kind of remain in the distant future, we're seeing real people being taken advantage of now. >> julia ainsley on this border crisis beat for us. julia, thank you. we're still awaiting remarks from president biden. he's expected to push back against some criticisms over how big the infrastructure plan is as he tries to get this through a bitter congress. he wants a bipartisan deal, but pieces of his plan are coming from fire on the right who think it is too big, from the left who don't think it's big enough, from the center who worry about how to pay the bill, and from the business community at large that is worrying about an increase in the corporate tax rate and is fearful of a one-party solution. they didn't speak up about that during the original corporate tax debate. joining me now as we await the president is msnbc news correspondent peter alexander. peter, i do want to begin with taxes, because it was interesting today -- i'm curious what you would describe it as. is this the white house putting more flesh on their tax idea bone, or did they tinker with it a little bit to soften its impact on the business community? >> reporter: yeah, that's right, chuck, specifically referring to this minimum tax. right now there are about 91 of the biggest companies in this country who don't pay any federal income tax in a new announcement from the treasury department today. they said there would effectively be a minimum tax, an amount they had to pay, for those making more than $2 billion in income. president biden said it would appeal to companies that make more than 180 million, so there would be a million companies that would apply to rather than the 100 million companies. this is a broad income tax he's looking to. president trump knocked it down from 35% to 21%. this president is hoping to make that number closer to 28%. right now there is opposition, including among some democrats. joe manchin says the number he's more comfortable with is 25%. but what was striking earlier today in the briefing that took place, the commerce secretary, gina remondo said they were open to compromising on these figures. pete buttigieg saying, show us how others are paying for this, we're willing to have that conversation. as remondo said, let's have the discussion but we're not going to short-change america. chuck? >> and, peter, the other part of this is the debate over infrastructure, right, and how do you define it, an expansion? i think it's an intellectually honest argument to have about why shouldn't some other health care or elder health care be considered as part of the infrastructure. but is there any movement to shrink this bill or cut it in half or cut it up into more parts because they think they can pass some of it easier than others? >> reporter: we heard from one of the president's closest allies, chris coons of delaware, saying the potential exists they would be open to something smaller that would focus on more hard infrastructure, more specifically on roads and bridges. he said they basically have until memorial day for republicans to try to get on board with something like this before they move on. the white house unwilling to make that sacrifice or compromise just yet. but the key phrase i heard from jen psaki today was not referring to this as infrastructure, saying this is essentially a jobs bill. i suspect we'll hear more on that from the president in just moments. >> peter alexander, i'm up against a hard break. peter, thank you, and that does it for all of us this hour. we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily." msnbc's coverage will continue in a second. katy tur will bring you the biden remarks and the rest of the chauvin trial. all after this break. e chauvin . all after this break liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? thank you! hey, hey, no, no, limu, no limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i'm draymond green with my subway sub with tender steak and melty cheese. my sub is gonna dunk all over your sub. excuse me? my sub has bacon. choose better be better and now save when you order in the app. subway eat fresh. but not jayson's sub. want to save hundreds on your wireless bill? subway eat fresh. with xfinity mobile, you can. how about saving hundreds on the new samsung galaxy s21 ultra 5g? you can do that too. all on the most reliable network? sure thing! and with fast, nationwide 5g included - at no extra cost? we've got you covered. so join the carrier rated #1 in customer satisfaction... ...and learn how much you can save at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings. good afternoon, i'm katy tur. we begin with use of force. again, front and center, day eight of the derek chauvin murder trial. first on the stand today, lapd officer jodi stiger, an expert analyzing the knee on george floyd's neck. stiger said the knee to george floyd's neck for over nine minutes constituted excessive and deadly force. she also dispensed the theory that the crowd could be to blame for chauvin's actions. >> i did not perceive them as being a threat. >> why is that? >> because they were merely filming and they were -- most of it was their concern for mr. floyd. >> sometimes an officer will walk into a situation, have no sense of risk or no sense of concern, but they have to prepare for the unexpected. agreed? >> i wouldn't agree with that. i believe, based on my training and experience, most officers know that when we respond to

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