Republicans vying for the senate grows by one. Plus. President trump won by a landslide. Were going to prove it. How the crackin lawyer who sold the big election lie is changing her tune after being sued for defamation. And Congressman Skram ae raskin on the bizarre republican arguments against d. C. Statehood. D. C. Would be the only state the only state without an airport, without a Car Dealership. When all in starts right now. Good evening. For the second time in a week, a community is in mourning. After another Mass Shooting in america. Theres a makeshift memorial that stands where a gunman massacred ten people. The suspect 21yearold ahmad alissa has been charged with ten counts of murder. He was taken into custody after being shot by police and is in stable condition. I want to say to the community, i am so sorry this incident happened. And we are going to do everything in our power to make sure this suspect has a thorough trial and we do a thorough investigation. These the ten victims. They range in age from 20 to 65, each one with their own story, their unique lives. Three of them were at work when the shooter arrived. The youngest victim denny stong had worked at the supermarket for several years. Years ago he posted this image as the pandemic was getting under way i cant stay home, im a Grocery Store worker. Her aunt posting on social media today why you, why not me, you havent even lived yet. Her boyfriend worked there, too. According to her friends she was selfless and innocent and an amazing person who loved going to work and enjoyed everything about being there. Lana had stop at the Shopping Center just to pick up a prescription, just a daily routine kind of thing. Her friends said she would give clothing away to people who couldnt afford it. She loved with her chihuahua, opal, and had just gotten engaged. Eric talley, he enrolled in Police Academy at age 40 leaving a stable career in i. T. This officer had seven children ages 5 to 18. I just had that officers whole family in my office two weeks ago to give him an award. I can tell you hes a very kind man and he didnt have to go into policing. He had a profession before this. But he felt a higher calling. Right now across the country as millions of people get vaccinated against the virus its impossible not to feel like we are beginning to return to some semblance of normal, some postpandemic life. But this, too, this feels like normal, an unbearable normal, an avoidable normal. An all too american normal. And just like they always do republican politicians are just waving it away making excuses for why they block basic gun Safety Measures at every turn. Thats normal, too. Its also part of this awful ritual weve all practiced now dozens of times. This afternoon President Biden called in the senate to pass two bills approved by the house that would close loopholes in Packground Check Laws and also kind for a wan on the kind of Assault Weapons used in Mass Shootings including the one in boulder. This is not and should not be a partisan issue. This is an american issue. It will save lives, american lives. And we have to act. Heres the thing, Gun Sales In America are surging. You know theres a 40 increase last year, nearly 40 million guns purchased legally in 2020. Another 4 million in january of this year alone. Gun sales are higher than ever. You might think with so many of us stuck inside for much of 2020 gun deaths might have fallen, but in fact no. It was one of the violent years in decades with shootings particularly spiking in city after city. Even as in some of those same cities many of the Crime Numbers remained relatively steady. More than 19,000 people in the u. S. Died from gun violence last year according to the nonprofit gun violence archive. Thats a 20 increase from the Previous Year and a new record, and that does not include suicides. A 2018 Analysis Shows the u. S. Has the highest number of Civilian Firearms by far. You see it up top that bar, you need a different scale for it easily out pacing countries like yemen. Thats the chart there. Thats what it looks like American Exceptionalism on this issue. As vox notes. This chart shows guns per 100 people and gun deaths per 100,000. All those countries on the lower left those are countries with relatively few guns per 100 people, relatively few deaths. And then up at the top on the right, u. S. , thats us with by far the most guns and the most gun deaths. Its just its own category. Its pretty clear were just doing Something Different than anywhere else. The site of americas latest Mass Shooting boulder, colorado, a pretty liberal city, college town, a great place if youve ever been. Its in a state of course thats had some of the worst Mass Shootings in the nation, a Movie Theater in aurora or a high school in columbine. And in fact the Boulder City Council banned Assault Weapons for the city back in 2018 along with bump stocks and high capacity magazines and did that partially in response to the Mass Shooting at Stoneman Douglas high school in parkland, florida, that year. But colorado and affiliate and others sued to block the ban. And just ten days before yesterdays Mass Murder On March 12th A judge blocked boulder from enforcing that ban. And four days later on march 16th the suspect purchased a ruger ar 555 pistol according to the arrest affidavit. This is what that socalled pistol looks like just so you dont get the wrong idea because of that name. That is what the gun looks like. Its familiar probably to you now. Its almost iconic in the demonic gun violence we have here in this country. The same kind of Assault Weapon used in other Mass Shootings and very similar to ones that have been used in shooting after shooting after shooting. And on the very same day the suspect purchased this weapon this weapon the nra sell prated the decision to block boulders Assault Weapons ban, claiming victory in colorado and claiming the judge had given lawabiding gun owners something to celebrate. Joined now by a member of the Boulder City Council, rachel friend, a former advocate with Moms Demand Action For Gun Sense In America and Fred Gutenberg whose Daughter Jamie was murdered in 2018 in the Parkland School shooting and wrote the book find the helpers what 9 11 and parkland taught me about recovery, purpose and hope. Rachel, let me start with you. You have an interesting trajectory as someone who works with Moms Demand Action and the city council of boulder. First, i imagine the city is reeling right now. What are things like there right now . Thanks for having m on, chris. I have to tell you that intro was hard to watch. Were obviously hurting right now and everything is still very raw. And were learning about the victims so that was the first i had seen about some of them. And its just painful. We lost Ten Community members. There were a lot of people in town right now who are not eating or sleeping. I think a lot of us are in shock. Its a degree of sort of Community Wide sadness that is new to me. I just think we are in an extraordinary amount of pain and especially with a fallen officer. Fred, youve already lived through too many of these even after your daughter was taken in florida. I guess i wonder just at a human level the emotional reaction when you see this with someone else. When i look at the pictures you just showed of the memorials being setup, it brings me back to that day in such a visceral way. The feeling of being broken. And, you know, chris, i have feelings of horrific anger over what happened today with the republicans in the Senate Hearing joined by feelings of horrible sadness. I talked today about i forget the fathers name who was killed yesterday. His daughter on twitter was talking about how she just had her wedding and he was fortunately there but shes now pregnant and he wont get to see his grandchild. Thats the reality of what this does to american families. And it just it is infuriating that the nra just days ago was calling their effort victory in colorado. Councilwoman, it is a remarkable set of circumstances here. I dont want to overdetermine it. We should just say we know very little about the shooters motivation. There are reports that he was paranoid, disturbed in certain ways, antisocial, so i dont want to suggest theres a causal connection thats not been established by the facts we have. We just know the timeline. We know you worked hard in the wake of what happened at Stoneman Douglas to get the Assault Weapons ban. What led you to that and led you to push afterwards . First about the shooter i do not believe in notoriety so i will not be addressing any aspects of that individual. We were lucky in boulder that we had that here in 2018. I was not on city council then, but i was working on a ban from the community side. And it was right after the parkland, florida, maz shooting on valentines day 2018. And then Boulder City Council member immediately proposed we implement an Assault Weapons ban. I think that like the rest of us who were doing this gun violence prevention work, she was tired of waiting. She was tired of waiting for a federal or state cavalry to arrive because they never arrive. So she proposed the Assault Weapons ban and large capacity magazine limits. And their proposal was extremely popular here in the city of boulder, but immediately there was swift and harsh opposition from the regional and national progun rights groups, the nra and kind of the local version of them. Its not exaggerating to say people got off buses chartered and parked in adjacent parking lots near the city chambers. And they had nra hats and walked into City Council Chambers and testified against our ban. It was a taxing and stressful and hard environment in the rooms where we were having the hearings, which is true of most rooms whenever there is a gun control bill up. Theyre just hard rooms to be in. The activists are intimidating in the hallways and parking lots and all around. And it was the same thing for our city council members. So it was intense on all sides, and i think at the end of the day we had Brave Council members who decided to not give into the Intimidation Tactics from the nra and the other people who were doing things like open carrying Assault Weapons at our Farmers Markets and things like that between february and may 2018. So, again, we had a supportive city attorney, a supportive city manager and a majority of city council who said enough. So they passed the ban in may 2018. That has now been of course enjoined by a judge although not struck down. And fred, time question to you about the fact we have seen this proliferation of gun sales, of shooting violence, of gun violence in the last year. Its been a brutally violent year in American Life. And what sense do you make of the fact weve seen the sales of these kind of weapons continue to climb . So lets just put a little context around that. My daughter was killed just over three years ago. There was an estimate of about 300 million weapons on the streets of america. That estimate is now over 400 million in just the past three years. Three years ago when my daughter was killed the gun lobby used to say the ar15 was for hunting, for sport. They dont say that anymore, and as rachel just said, you go to these events now where we talk about gun safety, you have people who literally show up carrying ar15s, using them as armed intimidation. So it went from being hunting and sport. Its now a weapon being used as armed intimidation. And the facts are, okay, we let this happen. The facts are when you look at that hearing today, the republicans want to not only continue to let it happen. They want it to go even further. And so as a final message i just want to say as strong in a way i can we need to go forward without those who dont want to work to save lives. If that means ending the filibuster, if thats the way then weve got to do it. Too many people are dying. It was ten yesterday, it was eight last week, and it was all the others that get killed in communities across america every hour of every day. Enough is enough. Rachel friend and Fred Gutenberg, thank you very much for making time on a really awful occasion, but i really do appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you for having us. So it seems like each Election Cycle these days and were about to enter into one. Maybe you havent noticed that yet but its coming. Remember when republican candidate roy moore faced multiple accusations of Sexual Assault but still earned the endorsement of the president , and that sent trump loyalists like congressman moe brooks literally running for cover. Mow brooks is tired of running from the press but apparently he isnt tired of running for senate. That storys next. Red of runninr senate that storys next. [ ] life is busy, and sometimes odors can sneak up on you. For a convenient life hack. Try Febreze Unstopables fabric refresher. With 2 times the scent power of regular febreze, Unstopables Fabric finds, neutralizes and eliminates tough odors trapped in hardtowash fabrics, like couches or smelly sports equipment; leaving an irresistibly fresh scent. And for a tropical burst of freshness, try new paradise scent. Stop sneaky odors from lingering in your home, with Febreze Unstopables. See every delivery. Every yikes. And even every awwwwwwww. Wait, where was i . Introducing Self Protection from xfinity. Designed to put you in control. With realtime notifications and a week of uninterrupted recording. All powered by reliable, secure wifi from xfinity. Gotta respect his determination. Its easy and affordable to get started. Get Self Protection for 10 a month. Back in december, mo brooks of alabama was actually the very first member of congress to say he would challenge the results of the Electoral College vote when Congress Officially tallied joe bidens win on january 6th. In fact brooks was one of the speakers who riled up the crowd telling them to head to the capitol. And ive got a message that i need you to take to your heart and take back home and along the way stop at the capitol. Today is the day american patriots start taking down names and kicking ass. A lot of people did kick some ass after that, gouging the eyes out of police officers, beating them, all that sort of thing. That was just the latest and craziest in a long list of problematic antics from the alabama republican. Back in 2011 mo brooks, said, quote he would do anything short of shooting immigrants to keep them out of america. And he ran down the stairs to avoid answering Sexual Assault allegations. And now hes decided to run for Senate Making the announcement last night with no other than steven filler by his side. Our countrys Election System which is the underpinning of every republic is under attack. In 2020 america suffered the worst voter fraud and election theft in history. Thats a lie. Thats not true. Thats wrong. Thats false. Thats the Dangerous Lie the president i mean thats considered a solid republican seat. Its currently held by a retired senator. That means mo brooks has a good chance of becoming a senator next year. Former governor of missouri who resigned in 2018 amid allegations of sexual misconduct, blackmail and Campaign Finance violations also announced yesterday hes running for senate. That seat opening up for roy blunts retirement is a relatively safe bet for republicans. And in ohio former state treasurer josh mandal has entered the race. He said he was motivated to run by Donald Trumps Sham Impeachment Trial and like the former president he was temporarily kicked off twitter for violating their policies about hateful conduct. Former senator Heidi Heitkamp joins me now. Its great to have you on, senator. The mo brooks situation seems genuinely troubling to me in so far this is someone who promoted the big lie, was one of the first people of congress to say they wanted to overturn the election. And last night in his Announcement Speech basically running on that. You know, the problem that you have is weve become so tribal. Even the craziest of people as long as they have an r behind their name and make it through the primary system seem to get elected. And just stoogive you an example, chris, and thanks for having me on. When i ran in 2012 i ran i beat the opponent in a state that barack obama lost by 22 points. And i knew as long as i kept it within that margin i could win because i could convert 22 of the people who would otherwise vote for mitt romney to vote for me. When i ran for reelection in 18, guess what, that was only 4 . There was no way you could run against that and win. So the really important thing here is the dissolution of the Republican Party, that they let people like this back in, that they are pandering so that they can win elections, and theyre going to basically create a United States senate that is unrecognizable in terms of people who want to get things done and people who are not hyperpartisan. Well, youve got alabamas a great example, right, because we all know barring something crazy and obviously we just had a democratic senator from alabama. So nothing is forward aimed. It turns out if you nominate someone way too farout there you could actually lose that seat. Barring a situation like that youve got where the winner of primary is likely to be the next u. S. Senator. So the position i want to overturn a democratic election it was a massive fraud thats who youve got as your next u. S. Senator replacing richard shelby. Thats the point. The point is its only going to be a republican. Alabama is a little interesting. Its a lot pinker than north dakota quite honestly. And i have a great friend down there, Anthony Daniels whos the House Minority leader working to register africanamerican rural voters. That could change everything. And so dont write alabama off. I think that the south is changing and theres opportunity there. And i think if youre Mitch Mcconnell you better be pretty concerned that if you get people way off to the edge that that could in fact reenergize the democratic and more liberal republican middle that could really come out and send a message to the Republican Party. Yeah, its a great point, right . Because roy moore actually is the example of a boundary, right . I mean republicans thought they could just get away with it. No, it was. Thats where he fell off the map, right . How do you lose a senate seat in alabama . Well you nominated roy moore. Youve got a democratic senator for your trouble. And there is concern about both josh mandel in ohio who already lost once and Sherrod Brown and eric the subject of scandal. Theres this partisan sorting but this strong level in which strong candidates do matter. And good opposition matters and Good Organization matters. What we have to do as democrats is we have to reenergize. Its not about trump. It wasnt always just about trump. And so we have to say if you want to fix problems like you talked about in your previous segment, if you want to make sure that theres equal opportunity and that were solving problems in america you have to step up not just in a president ial election. You have to step up in the midterm and youve got to get that energy back. Former senator Heidi Heitkamp, thank you so much for making time tonight. I appreciate it. You bet. Next up Congressman Jamie Ras Kn on the fight for d. C. Statehood. Congressman raskin joins me next. Statehood. Congressman raskin joins me next House Oversight Committee Held a hearing yesterday on a bill that would make washington, d. C. The 51st state, and there were some amazing arguments on both sides deeply rooted in our traditions and founding documents in american democracy. Its a sad State Of Affairs that most people dont know their constitution very well. But a little notice provision in the document requires anyplace being considered for the statehood to have multiple Car Dealerships. D. C. Would be the only state the only state without an airport, without a Car Dealership, without a capitol city, without a landfill, without even a name on its own. We could go on and on and on. No landfill . Republican congressman jody hice currently running on a platform in california. Of course there are Car Dealerships in washington, d. C. And theres no Car Dealership stipulation in the United States constitution that was signed in 1787. But that there is literally jubtd the best argument republicans have. They really fall apart because denying the citizens of the district of columbia True Representation is clearly an exercise in raw political power. Republicans need to stop d. C. From becoming a state so two new very likely democratic seats are not added to the u. S. Senate, which could potentially tip the Balance Of Power in the senate for a long time. The most audacious entry into the debate came from a senator from south dakota. Quote, the Founding Fathers never intended for washington, d. C. To be a state. D. C. Statehood is really about packing the senate with democrats in order to Pas A Left Wing agenda. Thats the senator from south dakota speaking there. South dakota with a population only a bit bigger than washington, d. C. Doesnt have much argument to be a state either. The main reason there even is a south dakota and a north dakota explained by princeton historian kevin cruz, the Dakota Territory was cut in half, admitded as two states as part of a larger scheme by republicans to add 60 states over a nine month period and thereby pack the senate with republicans like you. Seeing as if north dakota and south dakota combined only with slightly more residence than my home borough of the bronx and youre one of the four senators of those two states maybe lay low until the whole thing passes over. Congressman jamie raskin took part in that hearing and joins me now. I know youve been working on that issue for a long time. People have been pushing for it for a very long time. Is Something Different now . Well, its no longer a local issue for people who live in d. C. Its a National Issue now. People understand that theres 712,000 tax paying draftable u. S. Citizens who live in washington who pay a lot more in taxes than people in north dakota or south dakota pay. And theres no reason to deny them their equal status in the union. But the other thing thats happened is that the senate has become a major impediment to Social Progress for the country on everything from the universal Background Check for violent criminals purchasing firearms to reauthorization of the violence against women act to passage of hr1. And so the senate needs to be integrated with everybody who lives in the country and that means people in d. C. It means people in puerto rico. It means everybody whos unrepresented and disenfranchised right now. I mean the argument republicans make this is pure power grab, theres no principle at play whatsoever. Whats your response . Power grabs are in the eye of the beholder. We think its a power grab that all of these people who come from states that were admitted after the original 13 like south dakota and north dakota or, you know, alaska would try to deny it to people who have every right to be part of the union. So, look, you know, we shouldnt be totally naive about it. We understand theres a basic democratic imperative for inclusion of people who are being taxed, who fight in our wars and so on and who are governed by our government. But in truth in American History it has been a partisan political football. And whats interesting about this moment is that The Democrats are very solidly behind statehood for people from washington. The republicans have had it in their platform for most of the decade since world war ii that puerto rico should be a state. Do they really mean it . If they mean it then theres the ground for a deal because most states have entered the union like animals boarding noahs ark. Well, puerto rico the republicans want at least theoretically, washington The Democrats want, theres the grounds for a compromise to bring democracy to millions of people who are left out and cant really run their own affairs because of the federal government is in charge. You know, the u. S. Government cheated puerto rico out of hundreds of millions of dollars during hurricane maria. You remember donald trump tossing them some paper towels. And they also cheated d. C. Out of hundreds of millions of dollars in covid19 funding, which fortunately weve been able to rectify in the American Rescue plan. But theres no safety in depending on other peoples representatives to take care of you in the u. S. Senate or the house. We should note the people of puerto rico would have to have a say over this. Theres a long tradition there and a question quite contentious about whether they want to join the union or not. So just putting that aside. Yeah. I think theres some Movement Forward there, too. I understand its been a controversial question, but in American History either youre going to be a colonial possession or youre going to be a state. And youre going to be able to speak for yourself and be represented for yourself. Final question for you. I havent gotten the chance to talk to you in a while. Obviously january you suffered the loss of your son and then very quickly after that january 6th and then very quickly after that the first time impeaching a president for the second time. I just wanted to see how you are doing. Well, its kind of you to ask, chris. Ive every day my family feels a little bit better. Were not drowning in agony and grief the way we were for so many weeks there. And we just miss tommy terribly, but were going to be celebrating him on april 3rd with a memorial service, which will be open and available to everybody on youtube. And weve been very encouraged and gratified by how many people have been moved by what theyve learned about tommys life. And he was passionately committed to human rights and to Animal Rights and welfare. And he was a magnificent young man. And were going to celebrate the 25 years we had him for. April 3rd, i will definitely check that out. Ive been so touched by your family and the kind of person he was. Congressman jamie raskin, thank you so much. And thank you for having me, chris. Still to come facing a lawsuit for her role in spreading the big lie, trumps cracken attorney sydney powell, the new Defamation Defense next. The new Defamation Defense next. Hey, i just got a text from my sister. You remember rick, her neighbor . Sure, hes the 76yearold guy who still runs marathons, right . Sadly, not anymore. Wow. So sudden. Um, were not about to have the we need Life Insurance conversation again, are we . No, were having the were getting coverage so we dont have to worry about it conversation. So youre calling about the 9. 95 a month plan from Colonial Penn . I am. We put it off long enough. 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And ingratiating herself to trump where he reportedly considered naming her to be special counsel overseeing voter fraud, lawyer sydney powell is giving up the game. A court filing defending powell from a billion Dollar Defamation Lawsuit from Dominions Voting Systems her lawyer said the claim she made on national tv for months were not at all true and too ridiculous to be defamatory. Quote, plaintiffs themselves characterize the statements at issue as wild accusations and outlandish claims. Theyre repeatedly labeled inherently improbable and even impossible. Such characterizations of the allegedly defamatory statements further support defends position reasonable people would not accept such statement as fact. After months of helping to whip up so much fury with trumps base that thousands stormed the Capitol Building sydney now says all those people should have known better than to believe her. Election lawyer mark elias led the efforts to stop trump efforts. What do you make of this response . I agree with her that her claims were nonsense. But that doesnt mean theyre not actionable as defamation. I mean the fact is she lied repeatedly about the outcome of the election. And in this lawsuit specifically about the role that the various Voting Machine Manufacturers played or didnt play. And her effort by her lawyers while gal i want i dont think is going to sink. Well, there was always this strange thing happening amongst all these lawsuit which they would say one thing in public and then when theyd have to file things in court and make arguments in court where they could be disbarred there were very, very different kind of songs they were singing. Yeah, they tended to be very brave in the parking lot and not so brave in the courtroom. The Big Bravado Outside the company was then followed by a very meek performance sitting before the federal judge. One of the things i found most amusing about the the document that youre just referencing to is that her lawyers say, well, you know, some of these things she said at the rnc as if to suggest, well, no one could believe anything you said at the rnc. Right. Theres something sort of maddening about this, though, because where do feel there was always a bit of a Carnival Barker performance to the whole thing, even from trump obviously and giuliani. The whole thing at one level was sepreposterous and ridiculous and yet millions of people believed and some subset of those people went and beat the living crap out of a bunch of Cops On Capitol Hill when they tried stalking around the capitol looking for nancy pelosi. Yeah, look, theres going to have to be accountability because you had a whole bunch of lawyers and politicians led by donald trump who systematically lied to voters before the election and then lied to their voters after the election. That big lie then culminated in violence on january 6th at the capitol. And you would think even after that they would now abandon it. But instead we see in legislatures around the country republicans are now clinging to that big lie, continuing to lie to their voters as they propose ever greater Voter Suppression legislation. And not just that. We covered the story last night of the primary challenge from jodi hiess to brad raffensperger. And then mo brooks announces his senate run. These are like essential platform positions of the republican candidates. The only thing that binds the Republican Party today Central Plank is being against voting. Its no longer taxes, no longer trade. It is literally the glue of the Republican Party that you need to be opposed to Voting Rights and try to suppress voting in furtherance of showing fealty to a failed oneterm president who wants you to believe he didnt lose the election that he did. Its a pathetic place that the Republican Party has landed itself, and hopefully itll turn itself around. In terms of the powell suit, its striking to me. I love the First Amendment and as someone whos in my line of work im always a little suspicious of overly broad use of definition or libel. I think Free Exchange and satyrization of public figures and all those things are important. It is notable, however, that this has been the one avenue for some kind of accountability on the basic facts of the matter with a variety of different folks who spread this lie. Yeah, its been very interesting, actually, that the fear of defamation seems to have injected a modicum not too much but a modicum of caution in aspects of the rightwing media and some on the right wing. But, you know, the fact is we cant govern through defamation law. We need politicians to be honest. And right now republicans are lacking that. Mark elias, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you for having me, chris. Still to come, separating the bad faith political attacks from the actual problems on the border. The aclu knows all of better than just about anyone. Hes been working on this for years and he joins me next. Bee years and he joins me next many plugins are stuck in the past. They release a lot of scent at first but after a while, you barely know theyre working. New febreze Fade Defy Plug works differently. Its the first plugin with builtin technology to digitally control how much scent is released to smell 1st day fresh for 50 days. It even tells you when its ready to be refilled. Upgrade to febreze Fade Defy Plug. Emotional Culture War Debate about invasion and things like that. On the other the actual complicated facts of the reality on the ground. John cornyn of texas for example criticized President Biden because he quote emphasized the humane treatment of immigrants regardless after their legal status. See, when these Bleeding Heart Softy liberals get into Office Immigrants rush the border. Thats the implication there. There is just one problem with that argument which has been the kind of meta cop text to this whole news cycle. That problem is a guy named donald trump. Remember him . He was president. He was the guy who hired stephen miller, architect of the absolutely inhumane Immigration Policy where they kidnapped thousands of kids, lost track of their parents and never brought them back together. Remember all of that . Donald Trumps Administration did all that and people kept showing up at the border. Because this is not centrally about what joe biden did or said to make all these people try to come to the u. S. Its about whats happening in their home countries. More than any other factor people come here because they are in desperate situations at home. So its a humanitarian story about desperation above all else. The Deputy Director of the Aclu Human Rights project and joins me now. Lets talk about 2020 and the Status Quo Ante which was a very anomalous year for a bunch of reasons, the biggest one being covid, which the Trump Administration used to make it effectively impossible to pursue asylum claims as i understand it. Thats absolutely right. And what ultimately came out was that the white house was using the protext of covid to do what they had always wanted to do which is stop families from coming and seeking asylum here. And it turns out they pressured cdc into agreeing to that order. Whats unfortunate that the Biden Administration has largely kept that in place, theyve exempted unaccompanied children, but theres still families with little children being sent back to danger without a hearing. We have sued over that. We have put the case on pause for the moment and agreed to talk to the Biden Administration, but i think at some point our patience will run out because we see this as ultimately a logistical problem that can be solved. And i think so i just want to be clear. Theres this title 42 authority invoked in which the cdc is a Public Health measure, right, barred asylum seekers. A federal judge enjoined that as pertains to Unaccompanied Minors. The Biden Administration has kept that opening for Unaccompanied Minors part of the reason were seeing a lot of them, right . They are actually able to come across and start to get processed. The question is is there the capacity . Thats sort of the humanitarian question right now. Is there the capacity for processing the number of people there are even if youre just dealing with Unaccompanied Minors in a humane and equitable and safe fashion . Right, i think youre asking the right question. And there absolutely is. The federal government has more than enough resources. And i think the Biden Administration just needs to coordinate it better. What a lot of people dont understand is the children dont need longterm housing. They have parents here or relatives here, so they just need to be moved to their parents or relatives, and that should be possible. Were sympathetic to that there are challenges to the Biden Administration because the Trump Administration left them with a mess. But we do think this is something that can be handled and wed like to see families now be allowed in. I think theres a feeling like sending families back it would be easier. What if you say to hospital it would be easier not to take sick patients because it would be less hectic. No one is saying everyone can stay but you have to have hearing. I think theres this whole idea thats come about its not so bad sending these families back. And i think thats also the Trump Administration dehumanizing these families. As you said in the opening its really because the push factors in central america, no mother wants to pick up her 3yearold and say were leaving, were going on a 1,000mile trek. Parents who have little kids know what its like to go on a 2hour trip with their kids. A thousand miles to flee danger, families dont want to do that. They dont want to leave their countries. Theyre in real desperate straits and we cant just send them back. After world war ii we said never again. I think whats happening is these families are just being treated as numbers. If people can see these mothers and children fleeing desperate straits i think theyd have a much different picture. I think they need to picture these families fleeing danger, fleeing death threats, seeing their relatives killed and what its like for them. On the other side of that the argument thats made and i want to present it to you quickly in the last 90 seconds here is even if theres push factor there is some pull factor in incentivization so if you produce a border in which it essentially becomes possible to present for asylum and come to the country and get asylum which again is a legal right under international and legal law you would increase the number of people coming. A lot of people would rather be here than the dire straits theyre in and that would produce a problem. What do you say to that. Of course you have to let people come and seek asylum. And i would just note the numbers are not historically high contrary to what youre hearing from people. But, yes, of course theyre going to be more people alloy into the country to apply for asimem if you alothem to do. But we have no choice to say no one can apply for asylum. It would be inhumane. Of course there would be less people coming in if we never let anybody in, but thats simply not an option under our law. And i cant believe the United States is even having that debate that we may close our borders to people in danger. I thought after world war ii we would never go down that route. And as you said polarization has become so great thats even something people think about sending people back to danger without even a hearing. Theres also i think a lot of cynical things being done in terms of how people are treating this and the fact there was this cessation for a year. So return to normal regression to the meme can be spun to look like some massive crazy increase because 2020 was the most anomalous year in American Life in recent years. That does it for us this evening. Thank you very much for coming on the program. Thanks, chris. That is all in on this tuesday night. It Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, chris. Thanks, my friend. Appreciate it. Thank you at home for joining us this hour. After the shootings, the Mass Shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, president obama asked the then Vice President joe biden to lead a task force for the Obama Administration on potential reforms to gun laws and gun policies, to try to find a way to advance gun safety somehow, to try to find a way around the obstacles that had made any kind of progress on that issue completely politically impossible since the early 2000s