world to convince vaccine skeptic trump supporters they should get their shots? "all in" starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. we've got big developments on two of the biggest mysteries surrounding the january 6th insurrection. what happened to capitol police officer brian sicknick that led to his death? and who planted pipe bombs, next to the rnc and the dnc? there is still a ton that we do not know about that day. though, today, we learned a few more pieces but before we get into that, a little context. because over the last two months, there has been a concerted evident on the right to spin a counter narrative about this violent insurrection. you remember, you saw it happen, live, on tv. an attack, that sought, explicitly, for, really, the first time in american history, to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. from one administration to the next. that was the goal. there have been people with big audiences spreading the idea, that these attackers were harmless. was kind of a joke or a lark. that, all the stuff you have been told about how dangerous and violent it was, was played up in the media. and telling you it's white supremacists, show me white supremacists. >> it was not an act of racism. it was not an insurrection. it wasn't an armed invasion by a brigade of dangerous, white supremacists. it wasn't. those are lies. >> well, you know, on the day of the insurrection, there was this guy walking through the capitol building with a giant, confederate flag. and, well, there was, also, this guy, with a t-shirt that said, camp auschwitz staff. most people at the capitol were not quite as explicit about their feelings but an awful lot of them invaded the seat of american democracy. again, violently. under this banner. chanting, america first. then, friday, the d.c. u.s. attorney released these photos of timothy hale-cusanelli. an active sergeant in the army reserve who say they and i quote them here, recorded video of themselves screaming at police officers, climbing scaffolding, through doors that the been kicked open by rioters. and chanting stop the steal with other protestors. this gentleman, who according to interviews with his co-workers, was a well-known white supremacist. in fact, don't take my word for it. one navy petty officer stated, and i quote, talked constantly about jewish people and remembered defendant saying hitler should have finished the job. hitler should have finished the job. yeah, where are the white supremacists? what are you talking about? this is who, at least some of these people were. let's remember, exactly, what they did. because, as apologists for the violent mob know, full well, a cop is dead after that attack. well, two more died of suicide, in fact. the mob, actually, injured 140 police officers, despite claiming to support police. they gouged an officer's eye out. they beat an officer with a flagpole. they struck another with a fire extinguisher. they crushed officers in doors. they threatened to a shoot a cop with his own gun, while they beat him. today, two men were charged with assaulting multiple officers with what appeared to be some kind of bear repellent and that includes assaulting officer brian sicknick. according to the complaint, quote, officers sicknick, edwards, and chapman, suffered injuries as a result of being sprayed in the face with an unknown substance. all three officers were incapacitated and unable to perform their duties for at least 20 minutes or longer, while they recovered from the spray. officer edwards reported lasting injuries underneath her eyes including scabbing that remained on her face for weeks. oh, yeah, what violence? what are you talking about, violence, right? officers edwards and chapman also described the spray to their face as a substance as strong as if not stronger than any version of pepper spray they had been exposed to during their training as law enforcement officers. officer brian sicknick lost his life a day after that encounter. yet, despite all that, this idea that, well, really, were they that bad? they weren't violent. they weren't white supremacists. they were just patriots. that insidious, ridiculous, facially absurd notion, is kind of canon for a lot of people. not just people, you know, on tv. republican senator ron johnson came away from the attack with this remarkable takeaway. >> i'm, also, criticized because i have made the comment that, on january 6th, i never felt threatened. because i didn't. and mainly, because i knew that even though those thousands of people that were -- that were marching the capitol. >> yeah. >> were trying to pressure people like me to vote the way they wanted me to vote. i knew those were people that love this country. that truly respect law enforcement. would never do anything to break a law. and so, i wasn't concerned. now, had the tables been turned and, joe, this could get me in trouble. had the tables been turned and president trump won the election. and those were tens of thousands of black lives matter and antifa protestors. i might've been a little concerned. >> this will get me in trouble. he knew what he was saying. oh, yeah, why would -- you know, they would never break the law. except, they all broke the law. and i didn't feel bad or scared. i mean, these guys. you know, there goes the auschwitz t-shirt guy and confederate flag guy. and there's the guy with the hitler mustache. but not coming for me. senator ron johnson still says the people who marched on the capitol, who broke into it, who violently injured police officers. they love america. they respect police. and the only thing that would have made him scared, is if those people were black or anti-fascist. even paying special attention to the story of just what happened to officer sicknick. there are still so many unanswered questions around but today's charges begin to shed new light on that day. covers the justice department for "the new york times," she joins me now. katy, you have been doing an incredible job on this beat so thank you for taking a little time to us tonight. what do we learn from these filings? >> we learn there are two people on video on the body-worn cameras by one of the officers, on surveillance video, and others -- other crowd-sourced video. these two men talked about attacking officers. they were seen spraying officers down. one of them, being officer sicknick. and it seemed to be, in many ways, a premeditated attack. one gentleman, said to the other, you know, give me the bear spray. the other person said, no, not yet. the first person, instead, sprayed down the officers, anyway. so what we saw was an attack on officers. what the prosecutors were not able to do is link the spraying down of the officers with officer sicknick's death. so, what they did, instead, is they charged the assailants with, you know, attacking police officers. with violence on capitol grounds. and with other sorts of charges that, all combined, could lead up to a very hefty prison sentence but are not murder. >> that's right. we don't have homicide charges and it does seem there is just this, still-unanswered, direct causal question about what was the direct cause of -- of officer sicknick's death? what does seem clear, from at least the facts entered in these filings and from the affidavits of the fellow officers. there were some extremely powerful, toxic substance that was used by these individuals, allegedly, on them. and i was struck by the scars under the eyes. like, whatever this was, was pretty brutal. >> i mean, yes, you are right. what we saw is what we have said again and again, what multiple news outlets have reported. this was the most violent day, for law enforcement, since 9/11. we have all seen the images. this really underscores, in very, very graphic detail, the assault on these three officers. one of whom did die. and you are right. we might not know whether or not what officer sicknick was sprayed with ultimately led to his death. if it complicated his health. we know he went back to the office, afterwards, before getting extremely ill and being taken to hospital, where he died the next day. >> there is also some reporting, i understand, that you -- you have been pursuing and i wanted to sort of check in on this because, to me, the two -- the two biggest mysteries of that day remain the who assaulted officer sicknick? and what led to his death? and the mysterious pipe bomber. i mean, you know, these are, arguably, the two most, sort of, serious things that happened on that day. i mean, if those pipe bombs had gone off, we'd be dealing with a different situation. what is your reporting indicate about where that pipe bomber investigation is now that we have more surveillance that's been put out to the public? >> i think the pipe bomb case is something the public's going to have to reset expectations for. the pipe bombs themselves were discovered very quickly on the afternoon of january 6th. you know, they were found. they did not detonate. but in terms of who actually planted the bombs. that is something that law enforcement is going to be investigating for a while. we also know these cases are incredibly hard to crack. when you look back at the olympics bombing, you know, that took years and it was only after the actual bomber slipped up. and was spotted detonating a bomb at a women's health-care center that law enforcement was able to put together pieces. i think we may see something similar here. mostly, because these sorts of bombs are made with materials, easily found even in someone's garage. timers you can buy at walmart. even though the fbi is currently using all the tools at its disposal including data operations where they are examining things like receipts from hardware stores. so this is an investigation that, while incredibly important, because it could point to some, sort of, premeditated attack on the capitol. some lawmakers and law enforcement have said this could be a premeditated attack, meant to distract from the actual-capitol building. we probably will not know for a while. >> that point about the motivation has always stuck with me about what that day would have unfolded like, if two pipe bombs had gone off at the headquarters of both major parties. and what that police response might have looked like. and how that might have changed what happened at the capitol, that day. it's -- it's part of that complex picture. katie benner, who has been doing just phenomenal reporting on all of this. so, thank you, for your reporting and thank you for making time with us. all right. wisconsin senator ron johnson has seen, understandably, quite a back lash to his comments about how law respecting the insurrectionists were. and given multiple opportunities to retract those statements, he has not. the state's lieutenant governor called johnson's words racist and he joins me now. lieutenant governor, there was a sort of back and forth, today, ron johnson essentially doubling down on what -- what he had to say about the january-6th insurrection. what's your takeaway? >> all he does is him and huh. he is trying to fill a void that's been left by donald trump. he is trying to appeal to this very extreme wing of -- of his own party. and that is the wing, that infiltrated the u.s. capitol. we're talking about the insurrectionists. they are -- those are ron johnson's people and he has not tried to run away from it because he won't. because that is him. >> it's striking, you know, you -- ron johnson is a republican statewide-elected official. the other senator in your state is tammy baldwin. you -- you serve an administration, a democratic administration that won statewide. you know, wisconsin's not a -- it's not a trump-plus-20 state. it's not -- you know, it's probably a state, where i imagine, if you pulled wisconsinites across the political spectrum. what did you think of january 6th? you would get thumbs down. i mean, this does seem to be pretty far from where the median-wisconsin voter is. >> oh, absolutely. the views of ron johnson are so out of line with the mainstream here in the state of wisconsin. republican outlets have called for him to step down because of just reprehensible things that he said. calling joe biden's presidency into question. i mean, the list goes on. i remember, back in 2016, when he was running for re-election. he was talking about this is going to be the ronald and the donald. and since the donald is gone, we're only left with the ronald. and he is going to be as ridiculous as he possibly can, in the absence of donald trump. >> does he embody, though, what your state's republican party, increasingly, looks like? because it has been one of the most -- it's been one of the trumpier parties, i would say, as a political party. even though it's a very divided state. >> yes, the republican party here in wisconsin. i mean, they are as extreme as they get, as well. and that's because of gerrymandering. they have had the luxury of gerrymandering, where we have seen some very regressive legislation coming out in the last ten years. they have completely ignored the will of the people. when it comes to medicaid expansion, which has been one of the biggest parts of our budget this year and two years ago. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. marijuana legalization. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. fully funding our public schools. this is the work that we are trying to do right now. we're met with republican obstructionism. and it's -- this is just part and parcel of how they have chosen to operate. how they choose to govern. ron johnson is not an outlier, by any means. he's just the one that said it out loud. >> when i saw those comments, i thought, this -- this will probably blow up. this is a pretty offensive -- i mean, first of all, it's factually preposterous. it's just not true but it's also an offensive thing to say. has it? has it blown up in your state? >> i mean, look, we know who has been president the last four years. so many things should have blown up but they didn't. and people with hateful views, people with bigoted views, people who are openly racist and make openly-racist statements have gotten away with doing this for too long. why would it stop? you know, what's the point of a few people, you know, get mad. people get all up in arms. people who are of sound mind and sound judgment cast dispersion on what's going on, rightfully so. but they have seen what happened in the nation's highest office, without consequence. and so many of them are just going to replicate that behavior because if the president can get away with it, they'll assume they can, as well. >> final question for you. i mean, given your state, obviously, we saw what happened in kenosha, this summer. and -- and -- and then, the -- the aftermath of the apprehension of the young man that came from illinois and shot and killed two people in kenosha. after police shooting. i mean, when you see the senator from your state refer to people, that -- that, essentially, undertook the largest assault on law enforcement in a day since 9/11 and call them law abiding. what does that say to you about how he understands all this? >> honestly, the way he understands the world is just completely off. and it is -- honestly, it feels like an invitation for more of it to happen. i've never seen a person, who seems to get a thrill from this sort of behavior. who, sort of, wants this to continue to happen. i mean, if he said that he wasn't afraid. and he didn't feel any level of discomfort. he would be totally fine with it happening, again. and that's where the people of wisconsin have the biggest problem with ron johnson. because he doesn't represent us. he never has represented us. he's always been this way. but now, he feels that he has a -- some -- some sort of point to prove. but we're not buying it. >> wisconsin lieutenant governor, thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. back in 2018, you might remember that this essay. right? said that the cruelty of the trump administration was the point. the cruelty was the point. it became this, kind of, you know, phrase that rung throughout the years. and the trump's policies and his words, his delight in sticking it to liberals. that it binds his most ardent supporters to him in shared scorn for those they hate and fear. but if the cruelty was the point in the trump administration, the biden administration is kind of flipping that on its head. they are trying to overwhelm supporters and non-supporters by just helping them improve their lives. as he writes today, biden is choosing prosperity over vengeance to defeat trumpism. adam joins me, next. ordinary antiperspirants. the new provitamin b5 formula is gentle on skin. with secret, outlast anything! no sweat. secret. do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need? 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new olay collagen peptide 24 with derm recommended peptides. hydrates better than the $400 cream. for visibly firmer skin. olay. face anything. shots in arms and money in pockets. that's important, the american rescue plan is already doing what it was designed to do. it will help hundreds of thousands of small businesses keep their doors open. it makes a difference in neighborhoods and communities. if you have a drug store, they have a beauty shop, a hardware store, it's the center of small communities. and it dpets our schools the yours they need to open safely. >> president biden kicking off a week long push to get out in the country and tout the american rescue plan. first lady dr. jill biden was talking today. vice president kamala harris and her husband were in vegas, visiting a coronavirus vaccination site and talking up the plan's economic benefits. the plan that includes advocacy, which is like all the rhetoric of the biden presidency so far, a stark contrast with the previous administration. president biden seems intent on attempting at least to reach out to the 10s of millions voters that did not vote for him. as adam points out in his latest piece in the atlantic, the democrats are no saints, but they've come to believe that both the viability of their party and the sustainability of american democracy depend on their capacity to broaden their appeal to right wing voters. trump wanted to punish his enemies. biden must convince trump supporters he is not their enemy. defeating trump was but a battle, defeating trumpism the war. here to discuss adam joins me now. i love this piece because it sort of crystallized a bunch of things i had kind of been trying to put words to. you know, this idea that purely you take any sort of moral enlightenment away, right, the way that biden and the democrats understand their political self-interest and who they have to appeal to versus the way trump did is striking to me in the piece. how do you see the difference there? >> well, i think obviously there are strong ideological differences between the republican party and the democratic party about how the country should be run, what's good for the country. and that's expected in a democracy. democrats can lose power even as they appeal to the majority of voters, which means they have to be able to broaden their appeal to people who think that trump wasn't so bad or even thought he was pretty good. and that means showing them that he can govern on their behalf even if they disagree with him, even if they think he's too liberal. and trump exemplifies the sort of republican id in the sense he knew he didn't have to appeal to democratic voters, he could win without them. and so he expressed this kind of contempt for them, which was a contempt felt by a large portion of the republican base. he was a venue for that. but the democrats because of the structural bias in the country towards the republican party simply cannot govern that way. >> yeah, it was always so striking to me how much trump explicitly sort of put himself out as the president of the republican party. he'd tweet out a poll like 97% approval in the republican party, and he would attack the city of baltimore, attack huge swaths of country in ways like it's when he attacked the city of baltimore over elijah cumming was like you represent baltimore, too. you're the president of baltimore. and i do think what you're seeing with the biden administration is just a recognition that vaccination centers and checks, that crosses all party lines in all geography. they want to get those two things to as many people as possible. >> that's right. i mean, look, you can look back at the way that trump talked about the coronavirus. when he talked about the death toll he said, well, that's happening in blue states and blue cities as if there aren't millions of trump voters in california or millions of biden voters in texas for that matter. it was just a he saw it as my colleague ron brownstein puts it, trump saw himself as a wartime president leading red america against blue america, and biden doesn't see himself that way. he doesn't see himself that way for ideological reasons but also the democratic party cannot afford to govern as if they were only responsible for blue america. they have to govern for the whole country because the party is simply nonviable under any other circumstances. >> you know, the other contrudiction or juxtaposition is the centrality of ego or attention as the defining feature of the presidency. joe biden has been in public life for 50 years and joe biden has had for much of that time an enormous ego, a colossal ego. this is someone who really likes to hear himself talk, can talk for hours on end. he's been a senator or vice president for most his life. it is striking to me how relatively low ego his approach to the presidency has been so far and how that contrasts to trump as well. >> look, i mean no one -- you look at the men and women who make up the united states senate. no one would accuse them of having low opinion of themselves and certainly biden is no exception in that regard. but he also spent, you know, a good eight years being essentially the sidekick to the most popular figure in the democratic party up until now. and so i think to a certain extent he has learned how to sublimate those impulses particularly when it's in his political interest to do so. and the administration understands i think that trump's insistence on making it about himself in some way polarized the country against him. now, he almost won anyway because of the ideal geographic distribution of his support in the electoral college, but he made the majority of the country dislike him by a margin of some 7 million votes. you know, biden cannot do that. he cannot afford to make himself the same kind of lightening rod and still get re-elected or still hope to help democrats, you know, survive the mid-terms which are typically brutal for the party that is in office in the white house. >> final question for you. you know, the bet here, right, is that substance will matter particularly on the rescue package and vaccinations. they're talking about in the first 100 days, 100 million shots in arms which they've already hit. you get a shot or you didn't, you get a check or you didn't. there's no interpretation in politics. i guess the question to you is do you think they're right? they're betting this could do something with those voters and what do you think? >> i don't know if it will, but i think it's the right thing to do anyway. the people in the country who are the least secure are the ones who have had to bear the brunt of the economic decline as a result of the coronavirus. and those are people who are -- you know, have beliefs across the political spectrum. so completely aside from whether this is politically effective, it is the right thing to do. and even if it wasn't politically effective, they should do it anyway. >> great piece. people should check it out. when nearly half of all trump voters are reifiesing to get vaccinated or at least saying they'll refuse who could possibly change their minds? surprising new data shows it's not who you would think. that's next. 's not who you would think. that's next. abdominal discomfo? taking align every day can help. align contains a quality probiotic developed by gastroenterologists. it adds more good bacteria to your gut, to naturally help soothe your occasional bloating, gas, and abdominal discomfort 24/7. support your digestive health with align, the #1 doctor recommended probiotic. try align today, the pros in digestive health. also try align dualbiotic gummies to help support digestive health. why do nearly one million businesses choose stamps.com to mail and ship? no more trips to the post office no more paying full price for postage and great rates from usps and ups mail letters ship packages anytime anywhere for less a lot less get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/save and never go to the post office again got to say after the year we've had i do like coming on here to give some good news. and there has been good news about the fight against the virus. daily cases continue to drop and vaccinations have been rising at a really astonishing pace. that said the pandemic is in no way over. last week we reached more than 50,000 new cases in the u.s. republican officials in texas are acting as though it's completely done, the battle's already been won, and effective last wednesday as we may have seen we covered on the program governor greg abbott lifted the statewide mask mandate and decreed all businesses and facilities, all of them can operate at 100% capacity. maskless spring breakers are now descending on the state. hopefully they will keep all that praulicing outside with many acting as though covid is already a thing of the past even though texas is still seeing thousands of new cases per day. some jurisdictions are saying abbott is moving too fast. not a crazy thing to think. public officials in austin and travis county have vowed to keep their mask mandates in effect. they just get people to wear masks, not close businesses down and they want to keep them in effect until the situation improves. their stance prompted a lawsuit from the attorney general ken paxton who's trying to force the counties to drop max mandates and that situation has left many texas businesses in an impossible position. if they want to protect their employees and their other customers and mandate masks they now have to deal with noncompliant citizens who say statewide republicans have their back. this woman refused to put on a mask in the bankf america or leave the premises. the noodle tree was vandalized with racist graffiti after the owner who's immuno compromised took a stand on wearing face masks. the state has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the whole country. 19% of texans have now received at least their first dose. that's worse than all but three states. they are doing a bad job there. the good news is that we are now getting more than 2.3 million shots into arms every day. and vaccine resistance -- i mean peoples resistance to it, their hesitancy not lack of supply is increasingly going to become the big story. one of the most vaccine hesitant groups, not surprising, trump voters. a whopping 47% of them say they'll not get vaccinated thanks in part to the mixed messaging from the former president. the good news according to one focus group minds can be changed with the right pro-vaccine message. >> so i think my opinion has changed. before i would have said i was in the middle of the fence on whether or not i would get the vaccination. and now i'm leaning a little more towards getting the vaccination. >> what changes minds and what does not. after this. ges minds and what does not after this because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates my body to release it. once-weekly trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. most people taking it reached an a1c under 7%. trulicity may also help you lose up to 10 pounds and lower your risk of cardiovascular events, whether you know you're at risk 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dry, damaged hair without weighing it down? try pantene daily moisture renewal conditioner. its color-safe formula uses smart conditioners to micro-target damage helping to repair hair without weighing it down. try pantene. we are coming off the best weekend yet for vaccinations. six million americans receiving a dose over the course of just two days. if we can sustain that average, 3 million doses a day, man, we will be way ahead of schedule. and we should note, we are already way ahead of the rest of the world in total doses administered. that is 109 million per capita, we are ahead of everyone except israel and the uk, we are doing a really good job getting vaccines out the door. i know it's weird that we are doing something well with covid, but we are. pretty soon we're going to face the next problem which is convincing people who just don't want to get vaccinated or have questions or hesitancy about it. now there's encouraging news on that front. the number of americans saying they would not get a vaccine has come down quite a bit falling from 49% september last year to 30% last month according to pew polling. that's still a bit of resistance and particularly prevalent in groups like white republican trump voters. the question is how to reach those people. a focus group of trump voters over the weekend found sound medical advice rather than political messaging is actually what resonated with them. >> i would say i was 50-50 when we started. i may be 75 in favor now of getting it. only if it means i can get into the nursing home to see my mother. that would probably push me a lot quicker. i like the doctors. i like the medical situation when they give us the facts and talk to us without any politics involved. i think that helps me see that my bias was probably the political side of it, getting involved and just separating the medical side of it. if i can look at the medical and health side of it i'm much better off than mixing politics with it. >> a health care reporter with politico where she's been covering the vaccine rollout and the biden administration campaign plan to convince vaccine skeptics to get the shot. i know from my own reporting they're very aware particularly because they have so much supply secured they're going to reach the point supply is not the limiting factor, it's getting it to people. what are they talking about? how are they strategizing this inside the white house? >> this has been something that health officials in the trump administration and biden administration have been worrying about for months as you know, chris. so what the discussions look like now inside the white house is how do we go about rolling out what they're calling a vaccine confidence campaign to convince large swaths of this country to go ahead and get vaccinated? now, each population that is showing some kind of vaccine hesitancy they're going to require different strategies. but the next big step for white house officials and health officials inside the biden administration is actually go ahead and roll this new campaign out, which will rely a lot on advertisement both on social media and on television networks and will include interviews with top health officials and doctors from across the country going on radio shows particularly to spread the message about vaccine efficacy in states. >> one of the findings of that, again it's not scientific but of that focus group is that while you might think if you get validators who have political affiliations with groups that will be helpful, cultural affiliations. but largely what was found there and i think this is important you've got to persuade people grounded in the data. you've got to go to people and say, look, they ran these experiments. they're really big, this is what the data says about its safety and its efficacy. and that which sounds the most straightforward in and some ways kind of the most boring may actually be the most important way to do this. >> what's interesting about that, chris, is this has been the strategy all along since the vaccine first came out under the trump administration. health officials under the trump administration knew from the very beginning that we were going to need doctors and scientists out there speaking to the public about the efficacy, about the safety. dr. fauci raised this, you know, throughout the fall and into the winter saying this is what we need to do. at that point with the initial rollout in december there were large portions of of our health care workers that were not signing up to get the shot. they were hesitant to get the shot, and so dr. fauci in particular and other health officials were concerned about how do we get the american public to sit down or to understand that this vaccine is safe, it will prevent severe disease. it's very, you know, efficacious. and so the problem they're running into now is you're not going to have thousands and thousand of focus groups like the one we just saw where people can spend an hour and sit down and learn the science and what's going on. the government is need to put out advertisements across the country and continue this talk about this issue over and over and over again. because not everyone has the time to sort of sit down and read a study. >> it's a very good point. part of the problem is the signaling from the ex-president who had he wanted to could have done what a lot of people have done, just get on camera, make a big deal about it, in fact taken a big victory lap. look, operation warp speed, i leave this as my gift to you, america. he did get vaccinated in private and we've got polling out that shows only 15% of republicans said they've seen or heard a lot about donald trump and melania getting vaccinated. that was the choice he made, and it has consequences. >> yeah, exactly. it's sort of interesting you would think that after a big accomplishment with operation warp speed that the president and his officials would sort of want to go out there and promote the fact they were signing up to get the vaccine. if you remember there was a plan for a big vaccine rollout that sort of got hindered there for a bit with the congressional investigation. but even so i would have assumed that trump himself would have wanted to go and show the country, you know, that this vaccine he helped create and extract was safe and efficient. >> thanks so much for making time for us. up next a fascinating deep dive into one of the most inexplicable things about this pandemic. how basically all of the richest countries in the world in the west just failed on covid when other countries did not. what happened? that's next. s did not. what happened? that's next. did you know that some aluminum-free deodorants only mask odor? secret aluminum free helps eliminate odor instead of just masking it. and is made with 3x more odor fighters. with secret, keep it fresh every day. secret. overspending on a retinol cream? just one jar of olay retinol24 hydrates better than the $100 retinol cream. for smooth, bright skin or your money back. olay. face anything. and try new retinol24 max. we're going to all be great. we're going to be so good, we're going to do what's happened with the fed is phenomenal news. relax, we're doing great. it will all pass. >> relax, what's the big deal? exactly one years ago today, then president trump congratulated the federal reserve bank for cutting interest rates and told everyone we had nothing to worry about when it came to this new weird virus. while it's easy to blame much of the nation's inept, feckless, deadly response to the virus on the former president, and correctly so, there's one problem with blaming trump exclusively, and that's you lose sight of the fact that our initial response to the virus was actually very similar to a whole bunch of other countries, especially in europe. perhaps the most significant factor in stopping the spread of the virus back then, it wasn't competence, per se, but speed. that's the advice the world health organization gave just two days before trump told everyone to relax. >> you need to react quickly. you need to go after the virus. you need to stop the chains of transmission. be fast. have no regrets. you must be the first mover. the virus will always get you if you don't move quickly. if you need to be right before you move, you will never win. >> man, does that hit different now. in a fascinating new piece in new york magazine, writer david wallace wells argues this lack of quick and decisive action doomed much of the u.s. and europe. quote, even after the disease arrived in europe nearly every western nation chose to play wait and see hoping they wouldn't have to intrude on their lives of their cities and economies and they would simply need to play catch up. it's a great piece, david, and one of the big questions to wrestle with in the wake of all this, why did all of these relatively, quite wealthily countries do so poorly at combatting this? what's the main takeaway? is it just speed? >> i think speed is the main driver when you're dealing with an exponential growth system like this. you need to move fast, and you need to move early, and you need to move aggressively. even those countries where it was this significant initial outbreak, say south korea, where they really responded addressively, they managed to snuff it out. in the u.s. and across europe and really throughout the americas, too, nobody even tried to snuff out this disease. we heard a lot about flattening the curve. we didn't hear about eliminating covid. and that's a failure not just of the highest levels of leadership, donald trump, obvious, you couldn't imagine a worse leader for this time, but really through down to the governors and mayors, and throughout our culture, where we just first of all, discounted the idea that what had happened in china could happen here. as kind of a patronizing idea about the level of development in china. and then we thought, if it did happen here, we could just sort of ramp up our medical capacity to deal with it in an instant. and instead, we did effectively nothing. you know, we ended up in a long-term lockdown of various levels across the country, but even then, we weren't building on our testing capacity. we weren't doing significant contact tracing. we weren't doing supported quarantine like they were doing in asia. and when you look at the american response, you say how could any technocrat, anyone put in charge of this, looking at that incredible mike ryan speech you showed, how could they not be moving more quickly. yet, as you say, the u.s. has done no worse, in fact, has done a little better in terms of death per capita than the uk and belgium, we're all in the same ballpark, somewhere between, say, 600 and 1500 deaths per million. when you compare that to what's happened in asia where you have new zealand with 5 deaths per million and taiwan with .36 deaths per million, you really start to see this as an entirely different pandemic, that the countries that we know of as the west is an antiquated term, but the countries we know of as the west have suffered most, died most. countries in asia really beat the disease quickly, and the global south, there have been relatively high case counts but low death totals. this is one of the lasting legacies of the pandemic, all of these countries who thought themselves most through wealth and medical technology, most capable of defeating a threat like this, because they were so sure they could do that, didn't do any of the things they needed to, to do it, and that's the main reason why we're here today, although, you know, you can point to a lot of particular small scale policy changes, too, that we might have handled -- we could have handled things differently and done better if we had. >> this point, i think, two things really key from your piece to me. the idea that suppressing, snuffing it out, if you think about it as a fire that's burning and starts to grow exponentially, putting the fire out entirely was never a goal explicitly, almost at any level of u.s. policy, and it explicitly was the goal throughout asia. so you know, you say this in china, the disease was dismissed as a culturally backward outgrowth of wet markets and the shutdown was seen not as a demonstration of eariousness but a sign of the flex of the authoritarianism ruscream. but what you see across asia is institutions, vietnam, taiwan, south korea, japan, new zealand, japan, china, they speak different languages, they have different governing styles. the one thing they did is say we're going to suppress it -- we're going to actually extinguish the fire. and we just never did that over here so we lived with the worst of both worlds for a year which kind of shutdown and the virus raging like crazy. >> you know the vaccines told a bit of a different story. the american experience with vaccines is quite different, and in fact it's sort of interesting the countries that did most poorly throughout the pandemic seem to be doing best in terms of delivering vaccines, the u.s. and the u.k. but we needed to move incredibly aggressively in february and march. and during that time it wasn't just donald trump. you had dr. fauci saying the disease was a low risk disease. he called it a minuscule risk. you had andrew cuomo talk about the need to socialize, the need for response and lockdown rather than just push his state into a more restricted sort of behaviors to protect the population. at every level everywhere you look there was just this kind of delay. and we thought, well, maybe it's too expensive, maybe it's too difficult, maybe it's too disruptive to really be taking the kind of measures that people in asia took in order to snuff out the disease. and yet when you look at what they did it meant their pain was really only 6 to 8 weeks long and here we've been living with it for a year. >> that's what's so crazy they both had fewer deaths and they had more net freedom. they got liberty out of it as well. because in being completely psychos about the lockdowns and the attack, it meant that when that was lifted -- i got a video from a friend in thailand who's at a karaoke bar a few months ago. and everyone in new york is locked down and in thailand it's like we got rid of it. >> they were having huge maskless indoor new years parties all across asia and that's just new years. but they had this under control by late spring, early summer. some of these countries haven't had a single reported covid death. and i think it's easy for us to forget especially in the u.s. with how preoccupied we were with how bad donald trump was handling the disease, it's easy to forget this is not a global phenomenon. thought everyone in the world is suffering the same way countries like the u.s. and europe are. we're going to be studying the reasons for that for a long time, and i wonder if it may be sort of a decline in the west narrative. i'm not sure it's that simple but it's hard to look at the outcomes here and not be a little bit alarmed. >> i agree. although i do think sarz helped and the next time there's a pandemic we're going to be better. that is all in on this monday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you my friend. much appreciated. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. they tried to do it in the most out of it, no fireworks, nothing to see here. there was just a little administrative hoo-ha, no big deal. don't even need to write an article about this, definitely don't need to talk about it on tv. we are not trying to make a stir. but you know, it is a big deal. they have finally cleaned it up. six months ago, almost six months ago exactly, "the new york times" published a couple of exposes about something really bad that was going on at the cdc, the centers for disease control. the cdc over decades, over generations, built a reputation for excellence and solid science that made it, really, the international gold standard for public health. cdc

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