on why joe biden chose prosperity over vengeance. plus, david wallace-wells on how so many western countries got covid so wrong. and is there any way in the world to convince vaccine skeptic trump supporters they should get their shots? all in starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. we've got big developments on two of the biggest mysteries surrounding the january 6th insurrection. what happened to capitol police officer brian sicknick? that led to his death. and who planted pipe bombs, next to the rnc and the dnc? there is still a ton that we do not know about that day. though, today, we learned a few more pieces but before we get into that, a little context. because over the last two months, there has been a concerted evident on the right to spin a counternarrative about this violent insurrection. you remember, you saw it happen, live, on tv. an attack, that sought, explicitly, for, really, the first time in american history, to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. from one administration to the next. that was the goal. there have been people with big audiences spreading the idea, that these attackers were harmless. was kind of a joke or a lark. that, all the stuff you have been told about how dangerous and violent it was, was played up in the media. and telling you it's white supremacists, show me white supremacists. >> it was not an act of racism. it was not an insurrection. it wasn't an armed invasion by a brigade of dangerous, white supremacists. it wasn't. those are lies. >> well, you know, on the day of the insurrection, there was this guy walking through the capitol building with a giant, confederate flag. and, well, there was, also, this guy, with a t-shirt that said, camp auschwitz staff. most people at the capitol were not quite as explicit about their feelings but an awful lot of them invaded the seat of american democracy. again, violently. under this banner. chanting, america first. then, friday, the d.c. u.s. attorney released these photos of timothy hill cucanelli. an active sergeant in the army reserve who say they and i quote them here, recorded video of themselves screaming at police officers, climbing scaffolding, through doors that the been kicked open by rioters. and chanting stop the steal with other protestors. this gentleman, who according to interviews with his co-workers, was a well-known white supremacist. in fact, don't take my word for it. one navy petty officer stated, and i quote, talked constantly about jewish people and remembered defendant saying hitler should have finished the job. hitler should have finished the job. yeah, where are the white supremacists? what are you talking about? this is who, at least some of these people were. let's remember, exactly, what they did. because, as apologists for the violent mob know, full well, a cop is dead after that attack. well, two more died of suicide, in fact. the mob, actually, injured 140 police officers, despite claiming to support police. they gouged an officer's eye out. they beat an officer with a flagpole. they struck another with a fire extinguisher. they crushed officers in doors. they threatened to a shoot a cop with his own gun, while they beat him. today, two men were charged with assaulting multiple officers with what appeared to be some kind of bear repellent and that includes assaulting officer brian sicknick. according to the complaint, quote, officers sicknick, edwards, and chapman, suffered injuries as a result of being sprayed in the face with an unknown substance. all three officers were incapacitated and unable to perform their duties for at least 20 minutes or longer, while they recovered from the spray. officer edwards reported lasting injuries underneath her eyes including scabbing that remained on her face for weeks. oh, yeah, what violence? what are you talking about, violence, right? officers edwards and chapman also described the spray to their face as a substance as strong as if not stronger than any version of pepper spray they had been exposed to during their training as law enforcement officers. officer brian sicknick lost his life a day after that encounter. yet, despite all that, this idea that, well, really, were they that bad? they weren't violent. they weren't white supremacists. they were just patriots. that insidious, ridiculous, facially absurd notion, is kind of canon for a lot of people. not just people, you know, on tv. republican senator ron johnson came away from the attack with this remarkable takeaway. >> i'm, also, criticized because i have made the comment that, on january 6th, i never felt threatened. because i didn't. and mainly, because i knew that even though those thousands of people that were -- that were marching the capitol. >> yeah. >> were trying to pressure people like me to vote the way they wanted me to vote. i knew those were people that love this country. that truly respect law enforcement. would never do anything to break a law. and so, i wasn't concerned. now, had the tables been turned and, joe, this could get me in trouble. had the tables been turned and president trump won the election. and those were tens of thousands of black lives matter and antifa protestors. i might've been a little concerned. >> this will get me in trouble. he knew what he was saying. oh, yeah, why would -- you know, they would never break the law. except, they all broke the law. and i didn't feel bad or scared. i mean, these guys. you know, there goes the auschwitz t-shirt guy and confederate flag guy. and there's the guy with the hitler mustache. but not coming for me. senator ron johnson still says the people who marched on the capitol, who broke into it, who violently injured police officers. they love america. they respect police. and the only thing that would have made him scared, is if those people were black or anti-fascist. been paying special attention to the story of just what happened to officer sicknick. there are still so many unanswered questions around but today's charges begin to shed new light on that day. covers the justice department for "the new york times," she joins me now. katy, you have been doing an incredible job on this beat so thank you for taking a little time to us tonight. what do we learn from these filings? >> we learn there are two people on video on the body-worn cameras by one of the officers, on surveillance video, and others -- other crowd-sourced video. these two men talked about attacking officers. they were seen spraying officers down. one of them, being officer sicknick. and it seemed to be, in many ways, a premeditated attack. one gentleman, said to the other, you know, give me the bear spray. the other person said, no, not yet. the first person, instead, sprayed down the officers, anyway. so what we saw was an attack on officers. what the prosecutors were not able to do is link the spraying down of the officers with officer sicknick's death. so, what they did, instead, is they charged the assailants with, you know, attacking police officers. with violence on capitol grounds. and with other sorts of charges that, all combined, could lead up to a very hefty prison sentence but are not murder. >> that's right. we don't have homicide charges and it does seem there is just this, still-unanswered, direct causal question about what was the direct cause of -- of officer sicknick's death? what does seem clear, from at least the facts entered in these filings and from the affidavits of the fellow officers. there were some extremely powerful, toxic substance that was used by these individuals, allegedly, on them. and i was struck by the scars under the eyes. like, whatever this was, was pretty brutal. >> i mean, yes, you are right. what we saw is what we have said again and again, what multiple news outlets have reported. this was the most violent day, for law enforcement, since 9/11. we have all seen the images. this really underscores, in very, very graphic detail, the assault on these three officers. one of whom did die. and you are right. we might not know whether or not what officer sicknick was sprayed with ultimately led to his death. if it complicated his health. we know he went back to the office, afterwards, before getting extremely ill and being taken to hospital, where he died the next day. >> there is also some reporting, i understand, that you -- you have been pursuing and i wanted to sort of check in on this because, to me, the two -- the two biggest mysteries of that day remain the who assaulted officer sicknick? and what led to his death? and the mysterious pipe bomber. i mean, you know, these are, arguably, the two most, sort of, serious things that happened on that day. i mean, if those pipe bombs had gone off, we'd be dealing with a different situation. what is your reporting indicate about where that pipe bomber investigation is now that we have more surveyness that's been put out to the public? >> i think the pipe bomb case is something the public's going to have to reset expectations for. the pipe bombs themselves were discovered very quickly on the afternoon of january 6th. you know, they were found. they did not detonate. but in terms of who actually planted the bombs. that is something that law enforcement is going to be investigating for a while. we also know these cases are incredibly hard to crack. when you look back at the olympics bombing, you know, that took years and it was only after the actual bomber slipped up. and was spotted detonating a bomb at a women's health-care center that law enforcement was able to put together pieces. i think we may see something similar here. mostly, because these sorts of bombs are made with materials, easily found even in someone's garage. timers you can buy at walmart. even though the fbi is currently using all the tools at its disposal including data operations where they are examining things like receipts from hardware stores. so this is an investigation that, while incredibly important, because it could point to some, sort of, premeditated attack on the capitol. some lawmakers and law enforcement have said this could be a premeditated attack, meant to distract from the actual-capitol building. we probably will not know for a while. >> that point about the motivation has always stuck with me about what that day would have unfolded like, if two pipe bombs had gone off at the headquarters of both major parties. and what that police response might have looked like. and how that might have changed what happened at the capitol, that day. it's -- it's part of that complex picture. katie benner, who has been doing just phenomenal reporting on all of this. so, thank you, for your reporting and thank you for making time with us. all right. wisconsin senator ron johnson has seen, understandably, quite a back lash to his comments about how law respecting the insurrectionists were. and given multiple opportunities to retract those statements, he has not. the state's lieutenant governor called johnson's words racist and he joins me now. lieutenant governor, there was a sort of back and forth, today, ron johnson essentially doubling down on what -- what he had to say about the january-6th insurrection. what's your takeaway? >> all he does is him and huh. he is trying to fill a void that's been left by donald trump. he is trying to appeal to this very extreme wing of -- of his own party. and that is the wing, that infiltrated the u.s. capitol. we're talking about the ininsurrectionists. they are -- those are ron johnson's people and he has not tried to run away from it because he won't. because that is him. >> it's striking, you know, you -- ron johnson is a republican statewide-elected official. the other senator in your state is tammy baldwin. you -- you serve an administration, a democratic administration that won statewide. you know, wisconsin's not a -- it's not a trump-plus-20 state. it's not -- you know, it's probably a state, where i imagine, if you pulled wisconsinites across the political spectrum. what did you think of january 6th? you would get thumbs down. i mean, this does seem to be pretty far from where the median-wisconsin voter is. >> oh, absolutely. the views of ron johnson are so out of line with the mainstream here in the state of wisconsin. republican outlets have called for him to step down because of just reprehensible things that he said. calling joe biden's presidency into question. i mean, the list goes on. i remember, back in 2016, when he was running for re-election. he was talking about this is going to be the ronald and the donald. and since the donald is gone, we're only left with the ronald. and he is going to be as ridiculous as he possibly can, in the absence of donald trump. >> does he embody, though, what your state's republican party, increasingly, looks like? because it has been one of the most -- it's been one of the trumpier parties, i would say, as a political party. even though it's a very divided state. >> yes, the republican party here in wisconsin. i mean, they are as extreme as they get, as well. and that's because of gerrymandering. they have had the luxury of gerrymandering, where we have seen some very regressive legislation coming out in the last ten years. they have completely ignored the will of the people. when it comes to medicaid expansion, which has been one of the biggest parts of our budget this year and two years ago. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. marijuana legalization. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. fully funding our public schools. this is the work that we are trying to do right now. we're met with republican obstructionism. and it's -- this is just part and parcel of how they have chosen to operate. how they choose to govern. ron johnson is not an outlier, by any means. he's just the one that said it out loud. >> when i saw those comments, i thought, this -- this will probably blow up. this is a pretty offensive -- i mean, first of all, it's factually preposterous. it's just not true but it's also an offensive thing to say. has it? has it blown up in your state? >> i mean, look, we know who has been president the last four years. so many things should have blown up but they didn't. and people with hateful views, people with bigoted views, people who are openly racist and make openly-racist statements have gotten away with doing this for too long. why would it stop? you know, what's the point of a few people, you know, get mad. people get all up in arms. people who are of sound mind and sound judgment cast dispersion on what's going on, rightfully so. but they have seen what happened in the nation's highest office, without consequence. and so many of them are just going to replicate that behavior because if the president can get away with it, they'll assume they can, as well. >> final question for you. i mean, given your state, obviously, we saw what happened in kenosha, this summer. and -- and -- and then, the -- the aftermath of the apprehension of the young man that came from illinois and shot and killed two people in kenosha. after police shooting. i mean, when you see the senator from your state refer to people, that -- that, essentially, undertook the largest assault on law enforcement in a day since 9/11 and call them law abiding. what does that say to you about how he understands all this? >> honestly, the way he understands the world is just completely off. and it is -- honestly, it feels like an invitation for more of it to happen. i've never seen a person, who seems to get a thrill from this sort of behavior. who, sort of, wants this to continue to happen. i mean, if he said that he wasn't afraid. and he didn't feel any level of discomfort. he would be totally fine with it happening, again. and that's where the people of wisconsin have the biggest problem with ron johnson. because he doesn't represent us. he never has represented us. he's always been this way. but now, he feels that he has a -- some -- some sort of point to prove. but we're not buying it. >> wisconsin lieutenant governor, thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. back in 2018, you might remember that this essay. right? said that the cruelty of the trump administration was the point. the cruelty was the point. it became this, kind of, you know, phrase that rung throughout the years. and the trump's policies and his words, his delight in sticking it to liberals. that it binds his most ardent supporters to him in shared scorn for those they hate and fear. but if the cruelty was the point in the trump administration, the biden administration is kind of flipping that on its head. they are trying to overwhelm supporters and nonsupporters by just helping them improve their lives. as he writes today, biden is choosing prosperity over vengeance to defeat trumpism. adam joins me, next. adam joins me, next. at visionworks, we want you to feel safe and we want you to see yourself in your new glasses and think, "ooh!" but if you get home and your "ooh" is more of a "hmm..." you have 100 days to change your mind. that's the visionworks difference. visionworks. see the difference. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ deposit, plan and pay with easy tools from chase. simplicity feels good. chase. make more of what's yours. oh, you think this is just a community center? no. it's way more than that. cause when you hook our community up with the internet... boom! look at ariana, crushing virtual class. jamol, chasing that college dream. michael, doing something crazy. this is the place where we can show the world what we can do. comcast is partnering with 1000 community centers to create wifi-enabled lift zones, so students from low-income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. oh we're ready. ♪ ♪ shots in arms and money in pockets. that's important, the american rescue plan is already doing what it was designed to do. it will help hundreds of thousands of small businesses keep their doors open. it makes a difference in communities. if you have a drug store, they have a beauty shop, a hardware store, it's the center of small communities. and it gets our schools and resources they need safely. >> president biden kicking off a week long push to get out in the country and tout the american rescue plan. first lady dr. jill biden was talking today. vice president kamala harris and her husband were in vegas, visiting a coronavirus vaccination site and talking up the plan's economic benefits. the plan that includes advocacy, which is like all the rhetoric of the biden presidency so far, a stark contrast with the previous administration. president biden seems intent on attempting at least to reach out to the 10s of millions voters that did not vote for him. ased a appear points out in the piece in the atlanta, the democrats are no saints but they have come to believe that both the viability of their party and the sustain stability of american democracy, depend on their capacity to broaden their appeal to light leaning voters. biden must convince supporters that he is in the their enemy. adam is here, joining me now. i love this piece because it sort of crystalized a bunch of things i had kind of been trying to put words to. you know, this idea that purely taking any sort of moral enlightenment away. the way the democrats understanding who they have to appeal to, verse the way trump did, is strike thing to me in the piece. how do you see the difference there? >> well, i think, obviously there's strong ideological differences in the republican party and the democratic party, that's expected in a democracy, what is different is that they can do it without appealing to a majority of voters. democrats can lose power even as they appeal to the majority of voters. which means that they is have on be able to broaden their appeal to people who think that trump was not so bad or even thought he was pretty good. and that means showing them that he can govern on their behalf even if they disagree with him. even if they think he is too liberal. and trump, shows the sort of republican id, in that he knew he did not have to appeal to democratic voters. he could win without them. and so, you know, he expressed this kind of contempt for them you know, which was a contempt that was felt by a large portion of the republican base. he was a venue for. that but the democrats because of the structural bias of the country towards the republican party simply cannot govern that way. >> it was always striking to me how much trump explicitly sort of put himself out as the president of the republican party. he would tweet out, 90% approval in the republican party and he would attack the city of baltimore. he would attack huge swaths of the country in ways that, like when he attack today city of baltimore over elijah cummings, it's like, you are the president of baltimore. >> you are the president of baltimore. >> yeah, and i do think that like what you are seeing with the biden administration is a recognition that, vaccination centers and checks. that crosses all party lines and all geograpry, they want to get those two thing this is to as many people as possible. >> that's right, you can look back at the way that trump talked about the coronavirus when he talked about the death toll, he said, oh, well that is happening in blue states and blue cities. as if there are not millions trump voters in california. or millions biden voters in texas for that matter. as my colleague said, trump saw himself as a wartime president leading blue america against red america. politically the democratic party cannot afford to govern as if they are only responsible for blue america. they have to govern for the whole country because the party is simply not viable under any other circumstances. you know, the other krikz when you talk, juxtaposition you talk about in the piece is the centrality of ego and attention of the defining feature of the presidency. joe biden has been in public life for 50 years and i can tell you from first hand experience and from people that work from him, has had an enormous ego. a colossal ego. he likes to hear himself talk, he can talk for hours on end. he has been the senator most of his life. it is striking to me, how relatively low ego his approach to the presidency has been so far and how that contrasts to trump as well. >> look, i mean, no one -- when you look at the men and women who had make up the united states senate, no one accuse them of having low opinions of themselves and biden is no exception in that regard. he sent a good eight years being, playing the side kick to the most popular figure in the democratic party up until now. so to a certain extent, he has learned how to sublimate those impulses when it's his political interest to do so. and i think he understands that trump's instance on making it about himself and in some way polarized the country against him. he almost one anyway because of the ideal geographic support of the electoral college. he made the majority of the country dislike him by a margin of 7 million votes. you know, biden cannot do that. he cannot afford to make himself had the same kind of lightning rod and still get re-elected or still hope to help democrats survive the mid terms that is critical for the party that is in office in the white house. >> final question for you, the bet here, right, is that substance will matter. particularly on, you know, on the rescue package and vaccinations. they are talking about now in the first 100 days. 1 hundred million payments on out the door. you get a shot, you didn't. you get a check or you didn't. there's no interpretation of politics. i guess the question is, do you think they are right? they are betting this can do something with the voters and what do you think? >> i don't know if it will. but i think it's the right thing to do anyway. you know, this, this is tremendously uneven on people on, particularly on low wage workers. the people in the country that are the least secure are the ones that bare the brunt of the economic decline because of the coronavirus. those are people with beliefs across the political spectrum. it is the right thing to do. and even if it was not politically effective, they should do it anyway. >> i agree with that, adam. great piece, people should check it out. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> when nearly half of trump voters are refusing to get vaccinated or saying they can refuse, who can possibly change their minds. surprising new data shows it's not who you would think. it's next i'm really busy in my life; i'm always doing something. i'm not a person that's going to sit too long. in the morning, i wake up and the first thing i do is go to my art studio. a couple came up and handed me a brochure on prevagen. i've been taking prevagen for about four years. i feel a little bit brighter and my mind just feels sharper. i would recommend it to anyone. it absolutely works. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? 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[drum beat and keyboard typing] ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ [keyboard typing] ♪♪ [trumpet] [keyboard typing] ♪ ♪ we are kming off the best weekend yet for vaccinations. six million americans receiving a dose over the course of just two days. if we can sustain that average, 3 million doses a day, man, we will be way ahead of schedule. and we should note, we are already way ahead of the rest of the world in total doses administered. that is 109 million per capita, we are ahead of everyone except israel and the uk, we are doing a really good job getting vaccines out the door. i know it's weird that we are doing something well, but we are. now the next problem, convincing people that don't want to be vaccinated or have questions or are hesitating about it. there's encouraging news to that front. the number of people saying they would not get a vaccine came down quite a bit. falling from 49% to 30% last month. that still is quite a bit of lingering resistance and it's prevalent in groups like white republican trump voters. the question is how to reach those people. long time republican pollster frank lunds, convened a hesitating group of trump voters found that sound medical advice instead of political messaging is what resonated with them. >> i would say i was 50/50 when we started i'm maybe 75 in favor now of getting it. only actually, if i can get in to the nursing home to see my mother. that would probably push me quicker. i like the doctors. i like the medical situation. the way they give us the facts and talk to us without any politics involved and i think that helps me see that my bias was probably with the political side of it, getting involved and separating the medical side of it. if i can look at the medical and health side of it i'm better off than when there's politics in with it. >> erin is a health care reporter where she has been covering the vaccine roll-out in the biden's plan to convince skeptics to get the shot. i know from my own reporting that they are very aware, because they have so much supply secured that they are going to reach a point where supply is not the limiting factor, it's getting it to people. how are they strategyizing about it inside the white house? >> this has been something that health officials in the trump administration and in the biden administration had been worrying about for months. so, what the discussions look like now instead the white house is how do we go about rolling on out a vaccine confident campaign to convince large swaths of the country to go ahead and get vaccinated. now, each population that is showing each kind of vaccine hesitatency, they require -- now they go ahead with all this new campaign that, will rely a lot on advertisement and social media, and on television networks. and going to interview with health officials and doctors from across the country going on radio shows, particularly to sort of spread the message about vaccine efficiency and safety. >> one of the findings of that again, it's not scientific. that focus group. you know, you may think well if you get validaters who are big, you know, have political affiliations with groups that will be helpful. cultural affiliations. largely what was found there and i think it's important, you have to just persuade people grounded in the data. i mean you have to go to people and say, look, they ran these experiments, they are really big. we have been -- this is what the data says about safety and efficacy and that, which sounds the host straight forward and kind of the most boring may be the most important way to do this. >> what is interesting about that, chris, this has been the strategy all along. since the vaccine first came out under the trump administration. health officials under the trump administration knew from the beginning that we were going to need doctors and scientists out there speaking to the public about the efficacy and the safety, dr. fauci raised this, you know, throughout the fall and in to the winter saying this is what we need on do. the fear was that there were large portions of health care workers that were not signing up to get the shot and were hesitating to get the shot. and dr. fauci and others were worried about how to get the american public to sit down and understand this vaccine is safe. it will prevent severe disease, it is very efficient. and the problem they are running in to now, you are not going to have be able to have thousands and thousands of focus groups like we saw, where people spend an hour where people learn the science and what is going on. the government will need to put out advertisements across the country and continue to just talk about this issue. over and over and over again. >> yeah. >> because not everyone has the time to sort of sit down and read a study. >> it's a very good point. part of the problem is, it's the craziness and the naturaling from the ex--president who had he wanted to, could have done what a lot of people have done, get it on camera, make a big deal about it, in fact, take a big victory lap. operation warp speed. i leave this as my gift to you, america. he did get vaccinated in private and we have got polling out that shows republican -- only 15% of republicans say they have seen or read or heard about donald and melania trump getting vaccinated. it has consequences. >> you think after such a big accomplishment with operation warp speed that the president and his officials would want to sort of go out there and promote that they were signing up to take the vaccine. there was a plan for a big vaccine roll-out that sort of got put away with the congressional investigation. even so i would have assumed that trump himself would have wanted to go and show the country, you know, that this vaccine could help and was safe and efficient. >> erin, who has been a great reporter on this, thank you for spending time with us. >> thanks. >> up next, a fascinating deep dive in to one of the most inexplicable things about the pandemic. how all the richest countries in the world, in the west, just failed on covid, when other countries did not. what happened? that is next. [ "could have been me" by the struts playing ] ♪ don't wanna wake up on a monday morning ♪ ♪ the thought of work's getting my skin crawling ♪ hey, mercedes? -how can i help you? ♪ i can't fear you, i don't hear you now ♪ ♪ wrapped in your regret ♪ ♪ what a waste of blood and sweat ♪ ♪ oh oh oh ♪ ♪ could have been me ♪ the 2021 e-class. motortrend's 2021 car of the year. ♪ ♪ psst! psst! allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! you're good. we're going to all be great. we're going to be so good, we're going to do what's happened with the fed is phenomenal news. relax, we're doing great. it will all pass. >> relax, what's the big deal? exactly one years ago today, then president trump congratulated the federal reserve bank for cutting interest rates and told everyone we had nothing to worry about when it came to this new weird virus. while it's easy to blame much of the nation's inept, feckless, deadly response to the virus on the former president, and correctly so, there's one problem with blaming trump exclusively, and that's you lose sight of the fact that our initial response to the virus was actually very similar to a whole bunch of other countries, especially in europe. perhaps the most significant factor in stopping the spread of the virus back then, it wasn't competence, per se, but speed. that's the advice the world health organization gave just two days before trump told everyone to relax. >> you need to react quickly. you need to go after the virus. you need to stop the chains of transmission. be fast. have no regrets. you must be the first mover. the virus will always get you if you don't move quickly. if you need to be right before you move, you will never win. >> man, does that hit different now. in a fascinating new piece in new york magazine, writer david wallace wells says this lack of quick and decisive action doomed much of the u.s. and europe. even after the disease arrived in europe, nearly every western nation played wait and see, hoping they wouldn't have to indrud on the lives of their citizens and economies, trusting if they needed to, they could play catch-up. it's a great piece, david, and one of the big questions to wrestle with in the wake of all this, why did all of these relatively, quite wealthily countries do so poorly at combatting this? what's the main takeaway? is it just speed? >> i think speed is the main driver when you're dealing with an exponential growth system like this. you need to move fast, and you need to move early, and you need to move aggressively. even those countries where it was this significant initial outbreak, say south korea, where they really responded addressively, they managed to snuff it out. in the u.s. and across europe and really throughout the americas, too, nobody even tried to snuff out this disease. we heard a lot about flattening the curve. we didn't hear about eliminating covid. and that's a failure not just of the highest levels of leadership, donald trump, obvious, you couldn't imagine a worse leader for this time, but really through down to the governors and mayors, and throughout our culture, where we just first of all, discounted the idea that what had happened in china could happen here. as kind of a patronizing idea about the level of development in china. and then we thought, if it did happen here, we could just sort of ramp up our medical capacity to deal with it in an instant. and instead, we did effectively nothing. you know, we ended up in a long-term lockdown of various levels across the country, but even then, we weren't building on our testing capacity. we weren't doing significant contact tracing. we weren't doing supported quarantine like they were doing in asia. and when you look at the american response, you say how could any technocrat, anyone put in charge of this, looking at that incredible mike ryan speech you showed, how could they not be moving more quickly. yet, as you say, the u.s. has done no worse, in fact, has done a little better in terms of death per capita than the uk and belgium, we're all in the same ballpark, somewhere between, say, 600 and 1500 deaths per million. when you compare that to what's happened in asia where you have new zealand with 5 deaths per million and taiwan with .36 deaths per million, you really start to see this as an entirely different pandemic, that the countries that we know of as the west is an antiquated term, but the countries we know of as the west have suffered most, died most. countries in asia really beat the disease quickly, and the global south, there have been relatively high case counts but low death totals. this is one of the lasting legacies of the pandemic, all of these countries who thought themselves most through wealth and medical technology, most capable of defeating a threat like this, because they were so sure they could do that, didn't do any of the things they needed to, to do it, and that's the main reason why we're here today, although, you know, you can point to a lot of particular small scale policy changes, too, that we might have handled -- we could have handled things differently and done better if we had. >> this point, i think, two things really key from your piece to me. the idea that suppressing, snuffing it out, if you think about it as a fire that's burning, and starts to grow exponentially, putting the fire out entirely was never a goal explicitly, almost at any level of u.s. policy, and it explicitly was the goal throughout asia. so you know, you say this in china, the disease was dismissed as a cultural outgrowth of wet markets and the shutdown was a sign of the reflexing authoritarianism of the regime. but what you see across asia is institutions, vietnam, taiwan, south korea, japan, new zealand, japan, china, they speak different languages, they have different governing styles. the one thing they did is say we're going to extinguish the fire, and we just never did that over here, and so we lived with the worth of both worlds for a year, which is kind of shut down and the virus raging like crazy. >> yeah, you know, the vaccines tell a bit of a different story. the american experience with vaccines is quite different. and in fact, it's sort of interesting that the countries that did most poorly throughout the pandemic seem to be doing best in terms of delivering vaccines, the u.s. and the uk. but we really needed to move incredibly aggressively in february and march. and during that time, again, it wasn't just donald trump. you had dr. fauci saying the disease was a low-risk disease. he called it a minuscule risk. you had andrew cuomo talking about the need to socialize, the need for response and lockdown, rather than just pushing his state into a more restricted sort of behavior, to protect the population. and at every level and everywhere you look, there was just this kind of delay. we thought, well, maybe it's too expensive, maybe it's too difficult, maybe it's too disruptive to really be taking the kinds of measures that people in asia took in order to snuff out the disease. yet, when you look at what they did, it meant their pain was really only six or eight weeks long, and here, we have been living with it for a year. >> that's what's so crazy, is that they both had fewer deaths, and they had more net freedom. they got liberty out of it as well. because in being completely psychos about the lockdowns and the attack, it meant that when that was lifted, people -- i got a video from a friend in thailand, at a karaoke bar a few months ago. no one in new york -- everyone in new york is locked down. in thailand, it's like, we got rid of it. >> they were having huge indoor new year's parties across asia. that's just new year's. they had this under control by the late spring, early summer. some countries haven't had a single reported covid death. it's easy to forget in the u.s., especially how preoccupied we were with how bad donald trump was handling the disease, it's easy to forget this is not a global phenomenon. not everyone is suffering the same way europe and the americas are. we're going to be studying the reasons for that, the cultural reasons why we moved so slowly for long time. i wonder if it may be a decline in the west narrative. i don't know if it's that simple, but it's hard to look at the outcomes and not be alarmed. >> i think sars helped and the next time there's a respiratory pandemic, we're going to be much better. that will probably happen. david, a great piece, people should check it out. thanks for making time tonight. that is "all in" on this monday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. they tried to do in the most low-key possible way. they tried to take all of the heat out of it. no fireworks, nothing to see here. this is just a little administrative ho-ha, no big deal. you don't need to write an article about this. don't need to talk about it on tv. we're not trying to make a stir. but you know, it is a big deal. they have finally cleaned it up. six months ago, almost six months ago exactly, "the new york times"

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