The merits. Thats no lick rule, chuck cooper who represented a former adviser to senator cruzs campaign, driving a stake into the central argument were going to hear from the former president s counsel. Now, i understand why this Fringe Constitutional Theory is being advanced for the past few weeks, the political right has been searching for a safe harbor, a way to oppose the conviction without passing judgment on his conduct to avoid alienating supporters, without condoning the despicable, unpatriotic, undemocratic behavior. But the truth is no such safe harbor exists. The trial is clearly constitutional by everybody frame of analysis, by still text, historical practice, senate and basic common sense. A president cannot simply resign to avoid accountability for an impeachable offense, nor can they escape judgment by waiting for the final few weeks in office to betray our country. The Impeachment Powers assigned by the constitution, cannot be defeated by a president who decides to run away or trash our democracy on the way out the door. This trial will confirm that fact. The merits of the case against the former president will be presented, and the former president s counsel will mount a defense. Ultimately senators will decide on the one true question at stake in this trial is donald trump guilty of inciting a violent mob against the United States . A mob whose purpose was to interfere with the constitutional process of counting electoral votes, and ensure a peaceful transfer of power. If he is guilty, does someone who would commit such a high crime against their own country deserve to hold any office of honor or trust ever again . Consistent with the solemn oath we have all taken to do impartial justice according to the constitution and the laws of the United States, that is the question every senator must answer in this trial. I yield the floor. Hi, everybody. That was Senate Majority leader Chuck Schumer underscoring the strength of the case against donald j. Trump, one day before the historic Impeachment Trial is set to get under way. Today the most damning case against trump, which makes it it impossible to do anything other than to conduct Seo Convict Trump is being made by hardcore conservatives, who until this moment have been in Good Standing with the farright wing. Heres liz cheney, one of the top ranking republican in the belly of the trump beast. Theres a massive Criminal Investigation under way, of everything that happened on january 6th and the days before. People will want to know exactly what the president was doing. They will want to know whether the tweet he sent out calling Vice President pence a coward while the attack was under way, whether that tweet was a premeditated effort to provoke violence. We have never seen that kind of assault by the president of the United States on another branch of government and that can never happen again. What we already know does constitute the gravest violation of his Oath Of Office by any president in this country. This is not something we can pretend didnt happen. Weve got to make sure this never happens again. Cheneys comments delivering a blow to the trial brief filed by trumps lawyers, 78 pages of politicized attacks on the very House Democrats whose case cheney is defending there, as well as dizzying contortions of the facts that played out before our very eyes. Among the pages, less than a third are focus the on what trump is accused of. Rest assured well take you through those claims, claims that our legal experts are calling dubious at best. The majority of trumps defense focuses on the argument that the trial shouldnt happen at all, because, quote, the senate of the United States lacks jurisdiction over the 45th president , but that argument has won itself an unlikely critic, a conservative stalwart, one just quoted by senator schumer. He clients include jeff sessions, the antisame sex matter case, that lawyer came out yesterday in a plot that couldnt have been seen coming. His name is chuck cooper. By offering the option to disqualify them from Holding Future Office. Cooper also going to the belly of the beast, the rightwing beast, by publicizing his takedown of the flimsy legal argument being offered by republicans in the Wall Street Journal. New york times describes the legal blow that cooper delivers by doing so this way his decision to take on the argument was particularly significant because of his standing in conservative legal circles. Had he was a close confident and divorce to ted crew and represented republicans including Kevin Mccarthy of california. Bottom line, on the eve of trumps second Impeachment Trial, when the people screaming that the emperor is wearing no clothes, the question becomes simple will the gop sink their own ship . Or will they take the legal, political and moral offramp by being illuminated . Thats where we start today. Claire mccaskill is back, daniel goldman, lead counsel for the first Impeachment Trial, as well as a former u. S. Assistant attorney is back. Also joining us is jonathan la mere, and michael schmidt, all lucky for us msnbc analysts. You write the piece about chuck coopers takedown really of the constitutional argument that 45 republican senators are resting on to get them out of the doing what liz cheney thinking they should do this week. Talk about how that came to be. Well, chuck cooper is someone who sees the world a lot more like Clarence Thomas does than he does Chuck Schumer, but Chuck Schumer there just citing coopers arguments. Cooper was said to be dismayed by what he saw in the republicans in the house and the senate, people that are allies of his, people he has worked closely with, people he has represented and advised. He goes to the pages of Wall Street Journal, the imprimatur of and lays this case, sort of breaks ranks with those allies of his on capitol hill. Will it have any impact . Im not sure. It doesnt seem like much seems to be impact on customers on capitol hill when it comes to the president. But here was someone who is a Bedrock Conservative coming out and really throwing water on this argument. Its a very technical legal argument. He gets into the constitution and what the constitution does and does not say about impeachment. The constitution doesnt seem to give a lot of guidance on this. I think its allowed room to be made on different legal arguments, but really just sort of lays it out there and seeing where the chips will fall. Claire, im not a lawyer, so the technical legal aspects may be lost on me, but he seems to be calling b. S. On 45 Senate Republicans. He is calling b. S. On 45 Senate Republicans, along with i think were up to like 145 constitutional scholars from the very conservative like cooper to some that are not as conservative. But heresed thing forget about the complicated language. Forget about the law. Lets just use common sense. Does anybody really believe the fonders wanted to give an ali ally in free . Of course not. Thats wall they put in there that after hes been removed by conviction you can take the additional step to bar him from ever serving again. Why would they have even needed that if they werent worried about Holding People accountable in the closing weeks of their term . Theres no way that they would ever want a president to be able to do whatever they wanted, including treasonous acts against the United States, or in this case, against its own government. Yeah, dan goldman, that seems to be what the gift is that chuck cooper has given. I cant see a single benefit from doing this on his part, looking at his client list and what mike has reported about him, his attachment, his history. He argued again gay marriage. He represented the nra. His clients read like the cpac attendees of the old days, maybe. But the strength of what he articulates is that he seems to turn the rand paul argument around completely, and used it to fire back at the 45 republicans. He said, the point of the measure of being able to disqualify an official from future office, the point of that is for precisely this kind of situation we find ourselves in as a country. And many of us have been making that argument for week, but its very different coming from someone like chuck cooper. Cant frame it as this is just what the democrats think with regards we up republicans think something different. It actually is just legal bunk. The idea of relying on it not only to try to some of the argument of impeachment, which rand paul was trying to do, and before were expecting to see a motion to dismiss, but even in that fails, and even if the Senate Rejects the motion to dismiss, these 45 senators, perhaps more or less, were not really sure, but they clearly seem to be riding on this trump lawyer argument toward acquittal, which is basically to say this legal argument that fails in the senate will then just be relied on to make a factual determination of acquittal. That would never be allowed in a court of law, and it really is a dodge of accountability by the senators who are trying to avoid the wrath of donald trump, by actually facing the music and vote up or down on what donald trump did, the actual factual conduct he did rises to the level of impeachable offense. They cant have it both ways. I think what chuck coopers argument does is tees up the fact this is a bad legal argument, for sure, but it is a horrible way for the senators to act if they are going to rule on conviction or acquittal based on this bad legal argument. The reporting that donald trump is irate with liz cheney and others, what is sort of the mood inside trump world about someone who was, if not inside the trump camp, certainly trump adjacent as advancing a lot of their causes on the legal front, coming out today, taking down what is in their own brief, the place where they spend the most time defending trump. Its sort of split along two lines. There is talk of retribution, backing primary races down the road. Well see if that materializes, but certainly theres real frustration from trump on that. Yes, this does undercut what his lawyers are saying. Theres some kernel about that as well. Certainly going not ideal. This is a respected conservative Voice Breaking against them. That cant help. However, theyre not that concerned by the overall outcome here. They still believe this is a trial where we already know the vertebra and it would be an acquittal. Is it possible that a republican senator or two or a couple may be swayed by this or something else, or swayed by the evidence well hear, accounts of that terrible day, which the senators themselves were victimized . Its possible, but certainly doesnt seem to be a sense among trump insiders it will be 17, and thereforely acquitted and likely not barred from ever Holding Public office today. As that adviser told me today, he Still Believes it is trumps party and will be for at least the time being. Theyre not concerned that will change in the next week to ten days. Mike, that being said, the plan is for redry bugs. They dont have 17 to convict him of a crime he conducted in full view. He basically sat there riveted by the tv images. What has happened to chuck cooper today . Has he been firedly Kevin Mccarthy . I think he still reps the House Of Representatives republicans in the lawsuit against nancy pelosi, but this is a point. The Senate Republicans dont want to come out and say whether the actual conduct of the president , what actually went on on january 6th is impeachable or not. Thats a really difficult call to make, and they know that there are huge political consequences on both sides to do that. So the constitutional argument becomes so important. They can say we dont have to make a determination about that conduct, because the entire proceeding is moot. It shouldnt be going on, its unconstitutional. Thats why the attack on this is so important. This isnt just legal argument that has an impact. It is the central thing insulating them from having to make a call, putting their name on the record about whether they think the contact is impeachable or not. Claire, just pick up on that point. I think the fact that mike pences life was endangered by said conduct, the fact that liz cheney is out there swinging away, as you said, at the truth, if you use common sense, it seems that whether they get to 17 or not is no longer the point. What chuck cooper has done is revealed them as political and craven, and as mike has reported, all they have is this constitutional argument which hes now come out and said is bunk. Where did that leave the reps who dont want to sort of stand before its not a trial in the traditional sense, but stand as jurors in any sort of political sense either . Well, this is really interesting, because there is a bit of a tectonic shift of the plates here via liz cheney. What liz cheney has done is remarkable. She has stood up with courage and said, enough. Im going to lead the nontrump Republican Party, that we dont want donald trump to be the face of our party anynor, this is what im doing. Now, will anyone else besides mitt romney join her . There were people defending her in the senate. I mike, what mike and dan said is right, this is just a figure leaf, that they have no jurisdiction. It is what theyre most comfortable doing. The Muscle Memory the last four years is to high under the desk. This gives them a way to hide under the desk. They dont have to say what trump did is despicable and deserving of accountability. They can hang their hat on this technicality. Interesting, im told, theyre going to vote again on whether or not to proceed is constitutional. The first vote was a procedural vote as to whether or not it should be debated. It was to table the debate. Im told here going to debate and vote again, because there were a couple republicans that want to weigh in on the side of liz cheney, and the same reps that are left how many routs there will be to convict, we still dont knowo know. Im not optimistic they get to 17, but i think theyll definitely have more than one. Dan, you had the job of being the strategist for the last impeachment. What would your strategy be around the vote that claire is describing, and how would you use the chuck cooper argument . I think youll see quotes of that oped over and over and over again. Its a very persuasive argument. Then what you can do and what i would do is layer on top of it. That argument stands for any impeachment that would occur after someone has left office, but here we have an impeachment that occurred while donald trump was in office. We have effectively the indictment one of the statutes of limitations. Trials happen long after the statute of limitations. Thats exactly an analogy here. So its an Even Stronger argument that chuck cooper has. I think well see a couple hours of debate on this issue tomorrow. I suspect the House Managers, are going to hammer home the insanity that this argument would bring in taken to its logical conclusions. I think chuck cooper did a good job, claire explained it earlier, but the nothing someone can evade responsibility by resigning, already removed from office and then can run again. You dont need to be a lawyer, it just runs counter to common sense. The real question, which i keep Harping On Is and i think this is smart by the democrats to raise this issue at the beginning have it out, hammer it home. This is a motion to dismiss. Its a legal dispute, but what they need to be stressing is you cannot rely on this legal argument that has been rejected by the majority of the senate as the basis for your vote. It wont work, but i think if enough americans start to understand a bit more and dont get wrapped much in the legal nuance, but understand this is a way to avoid a difficult vote and they should be held accountable for that evasion, the American Public can move the senators, perhaps more even a than the House Managers. I believe a lot of arguments will directed twrard the public. If polls get up over 60 , you may see movement. Thats where Public Opinion, in my limited experience, usually moves, when you have a far right constitutional lawyer saying the same thing as everyone on the left, Public Opinion is already at 56 , 57 for conviction. What you just described in more eloquent terms is a dodge. Thank you. Well be calling on you early and often. Claire will be sticking around. Liz cheney fighting for a party that no longer views her as loyal to it. Can she break the gop and her own constituents of their trump addiction . And lawsuits appear to be working in stifles the flow of some disinformation. Cleaning house of some of the most egregious offenders, but have the seeds of disinformation already spread too far. President biden acknowledging that the trump administrations nonresponse was far worse than the team imagined. Where we stand on getting the country back on track. All of those stories after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Quick break. Dont go anywhere. To waynes wo. Party on, wayne. Party on, garth. As a local access show, we want everyone to support local restaurants. But, wed never manipulate you like the way all these other commercials do. Shyeah, thats really sad. Wed never shamelessly rely on a celebrity cameo. Right cardi b . Yeah eat local giggles local eats, waynes world, yummy. Hi. So youre the scientist here. Does my aveeno® daily moisturizer really make my dry skin healthier in one day . Its true jen. This Prebiotic Oat Formula moisturizes to help prevent dry skin. Impressive aveeno® healthy. Its our nature. ™ try the body wash, too. When you switch to xfinity mobile, youre choosing to get connected its our nature. ™ to the most Reliable Network nationwide, now with 5g included. Discover how to save up to 300 a year with shared data starting at 15 a month, or get the lowest price for one line of unlimited. Come into your local xfinity store to make the most of your mobile experience. You can shop the latest phones, bring your own device, or trade in for extra savings. Stop in or book an appointment to shop safely with Peace Of Mind at your local xfinity store. Were the party of abraham lincoln, of ronald reagan. We have to really take a hard look at who we are and what we stand for and believe in. Liz cheney there with words for the Republican Party, the party she says will be lost if they cant reject trumps politics. Marjorie Taylor Greene still has the coached and audacity to public le recognize her removal as more freedom to move the party further toward allegiance to trump. The party still punishes the ten. Only eight every of the 74 and they have asked that she repay all donations made to her Campaign Last year from the party. Joining us is the Senior Adviser tos linking project and claire is still here. Tara, where do you think liz cheney is trying to lead the party . Do you think she has more support that is public . If we took a private secret ballot, im sure you would see that. You saw she won overwhelmingly to keep her seat. Unfortunately the Republican Party is no longer the party of lincoln or reagan, but margely Taylor Greene is the face of the Republican Party. The Republican Party is Donald Trumps party. Kevin mccarthy made that clear when he 2r568d down to maralago to kiss the ring. This is not how they would behave if it was the party of lincoln and reagan. Bass in the 60s, with 9 crackpots of the john bench party, they were cast out. They recognize thats not happening this time around. Theyre acquiescing to the crazies, so the Republican Party needs to decide are they or are they going to side with the kooks, the crackpots and conspiracy theorists. Liz cheney, unfortunately, is a minor voice. Her and Adam Kinzinger are about the only ones who have stepped up. Its clear shes swimming against the grain and the party is no longer the way she describes it. I feel like kooks lets them off scotfree. Theyre aligned with the groups pa participated in Donald Trumps call to storm the capitol are White Supremacists, racists. Indeed. Theyre throwing down with racists. Well, some of them are kooks and crabpots. The qanon theories are pretty out there, but you bring up a good point. Ive been Reading Literature about what happened after lincoln was assassinated and some of the mistakes, when you dont hold people accountable for misdeeds. What the Republican Party is doing, is they are falling victim to worrying about a base that is stoke in white grievance, stoked in racism, this idea of the illegitimacy of the last election is Disenfranchising 34i8 onand millions of black voters in philadelphia, detroit, atlanta. Lets not be naive about whats really going on here. Theyre questioning that. I think we do need to talk about that more. The party of lincoln would never have stood for this. It was about equality, equality of opportunity, of freedom. The republicans have turned into a proseditionist, Antidemocratic Party from the top down. Theres a lot of unsavory things going on here that will destroy the Republican Party if they dont course correct. Claire, i would argue its been destroyed, but i think it also comes down to leadership, and i think Kevin Mccarthy has proven himself as pathetic and weak. Hes an enabler of donald trump. Hes been revealed. They will be the one who was engarde or at the helm when the titanic hit the iceberg. Kevin mccarthy has made to make Mitch Mcconnell look good. [ laughter ] thats quite an achievement. You made me laugh, claire. Its true, though. What Kevin Mccarthy needs to understand is that when there was a secret ballot, two thirds of this caucus stood with liz cheney. It was only a third of them that were in the kook and crazy and im down with White Supremacists and so forth. You look at how liz cheney has handled herself since her moment of truth, since they tried to take her down from her leadership position, and compare and contrast that with this qanon lady. The qanon lady got up the next morning and was literally laughing at what happened. Shes taunting the people who tried to hold her accountable. She thinking this is the right way to show leadership, laughing and taunting people who try to hold her accountable for outrageous things shes said and done. Thats the contrast there. Ive got to tell you the truth, the longer trump is out of out of, the more his whitehot followers are going to fade. We keep reading about people who said they were following qanon and all of a sudden realized it was a big line. Thats going to happen more and more. I think liz chen yes is on to something. Tara, the Lincoln Project of which you were a part of, is there a strategy or conversations about give liz cheney some political, and it sounds like maybe some Financial Support . I think what the Lincoln Projects focus is prodemocracy. As long as she continues taking a posture of doing the right thing when it comes to accountability and transparency, sure, well give her credit where she deserves it, but well also be critical when the republicans hide behind Process Arguments. Were not going to give cover to folks who does that. Unfortunately she hid behind the Process Arguments during the marjorie Taylor Greene vote, which was disappointing. I applaud her for her epps on impeachment, but you cant have it both ways. Shes walking a fine line, but at least she toad up. She wasnt a coward like a lot of other republicans. Thousand theyre cowering in the corner. And thank god these republicans werent around during the civil war, or they would have been on the wrong side of it. Tara, great to have your voice back in the mix. Wonderful to see you. Claire is sticking around. Thank you. Working are the consequences of trumps big lie too far gone . Too widespread . Well ask the question of that reporter on that beat, next. Quet reporter on that beat, next. Be remade. Not all plastic is the same. Were carefully designing our bottles to be one hundred percent recyclable, including the caps. Theyre collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. That completes the circle, and reduces plastic waste. Please help us get every bottle back. Your Grooming Business is booming. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base. Claim your seventyfivedollar credit when you post your first job at indeed. Com groomer it was an essentially plank of the big lie. The baseless claims that Voting Machine Companies that dominion and smartmatic somehow rigged the eleeks. Both companies are fighting back, helping to tern, at least a little the stream of disinformation, a notch in the right direction, coming at rightwing lawsuits. Lou dobbs lost his show on friday night after fox news and others were named in a lawsuit. Meanwhile, dominion is refusing to rule out suing fox news. Heres what their spokesman said. Let me say this. Mike lindell is begging to be sued, and at some point we might oblige him. The scourge that has reshaped american politics, deprived citizens of common facts and 35i6d the way for the deadly January 6th Attack on the capitol. Joining us is the author of that meet piece. I thought you were the first to pull together with the importance of these lawsuits, to not turn the heat down, but restore some need on the rightwing organizations. Talk about the legal effort and what you have reported on whether it can achieve that. Yeah, i think whats really striking to me, i think covering the media beat for about five years, is just the efficacy that we have seen from these lawsuits. Rupert murdoch and fox news, and never giving an inch to the liberal critics who have been lamenting them for years, avoiding ad boycotts these threats, weve seen lou dobbs taken off the air, fox is running factchecking segments on several of the shows. Newsmax kicked mike lindell off the air the other day. Hes been a staple for the last nine months. Its quickly to see how this litigation has had a realworld impact on these media organizations. Im curious about your argument, and i would love you to discuss the heavy lifting theyre volume to do around this complicated intersection. And the broad protections the courts have carved out. I anticipate there will be a lot of legal maneuvers that these news outlets have the right to basically broadcast the views of the lawyers of the president who are considered public figures. Will that protection be enough . Or was this so egregious that they can sustain legal attacks that will come from these laws their technology was used in one county, los angeles county, one county across the United States. So the idea this was kind of, you know, a major corporation, you know, in The Public Eye already, i dont think they can meet that test in a courtroom. I think whats really i spoke to a bunch of First Amendment some of the leading First Amendment lawyers in this country. What really struck me theyre so used to sues nbc news, the Washington Post, saying that the coverage is biased and unfair. Theyre nuisance suits. Theyre free speech advocates who now, because of the Disinformation Culture we live in, they have decided this Litigation Approach is really the only effective way, because it threatens the porkbooks, the only way theyre going to actually gets some satisfaction and actually stop the disinfo from spreading. Where did they go wrong . Why did they turn to a model that depended on misinformation. Let me roll the tape first. You can answer it on the other side. Using a Foreign Company that is owned by venezuelans who are close were close to, um to chaps, now close to maduro, have a history they are founded as a company to fix elections. We now have reams and reams of actual documents from smartmatic and dominion, including evidence that they planned and executed all of this. We have evidence of how they flipped the votes, how it was designed to flip the votes. The president s lawyers alleging a Company Called dominion, which they stay started in venezuela with cuban movie, with the assistance of smartmatic software, a back door is capable of flipping votes. Dominion and two others dominate the market in america. This is a problem, especially if theyre antifadrenched engineers are hellbent on deleting half of americas voice. Michael, before you answer, all of that was fake, untrue, and thats some of the evidence i expect will be part of this lawsuits. Nbc news will be pleased you covered your bases there. One is, you know, will. Ou dobbs, jeanine perrino, their audience expected total fealty to the president , so it make commercial sense for these hosts to keep it up even after the election when trumps lying starting to go into the realm that this election was rigged. This speaks to the senators point earlier, Rudy Giuliani, a lot of your viewers might think he has gone off the deep end, the theories hes saying are way off the cliff, but he was representing the president of the United States. He was the paid attorney in fact he was asking for a lot of money, but he was the paid attorney for the president. As a news organization, there is some justification, and i think well see their lawyers argue this in court, its okay for us to broadcast what we have to say, even if its opinion. What about lies . I think thats the test were about to discover. I think, by the way. Pirro, dobbs, this is where fox ran factchecking segment, i think executives knew they had gone beyond the guardrail, gone beyond the guidelines that had been in place before that. This was a step too far, and now were going to see how serious the economic consequences are. Michael grynbaum, thank you for joining us. Up next for us, masks, indoor dining, vaccines, nothing can move forward unless more of us are vaccinated. The latest on the global effort, when we come back. On the globa, when we come back. Are you managing your diabetes. Using fingersticks . With the new freestyle Libre 2 System, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose with a painless, onesecond scan. And now with optional alarms, you can choose to be notified if you go too high or too low. And for those who qualify, the freestyle Libre 2 System is now covered by medicare. Ask your doctor for a prescription. You can do it without fingersticks. Learn more at freestyle libre 2 dot u. S. Man whats my safelite story . I spend a lot of time in my truck. Its my livelihood. Rock music man so im not taking any chances when something happens to it. So when my windshield cracked. My friend recommended Safelite Autoglass. They came right to me, with Expert Service where i needed it. Rock music man thats service i can trust. No matter what im hauling. Right, girl . Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. One of the disappointments was, when we came into office, is the circumstance relating to how the administration was handling covid was even more dire than we thought. The trump administration. The trump administration. We thought that indicated there was a lot more vaccine available and it didnt turn out to be the case. Thats putting it nicely. President biden on the previous administrations handling of the pandemic and how the nations vaccine supply was left for the incoming white house. Biden warning that at the current rate were going, it will be difficult to reach Herd Immunity before the end of the summer, suggesting a long road ahead in our race against the virus. But dr. Anthony fauci today seemed hopeful about vaccines aiding in our fight against the uk variant expected to be the dominant strain here by next month. Hopeful they will also contain the spread of the South African variant here. The encouraging news is that the vaccines that were currently distributing right now are quite effective against that particular variant, less so against the against the South African, the 3. 5. 1, but hopefully we will get the virus under much better control by the time theres any indication that that might become dominant. Lets bring into our conversation nbc news medical contributor dr. Vin gupta, claire is still here, shes going to jump in after i throw one at you. Dr. Gupta, if our understanding of the urgency to vaccinate has changed, and weve got the uk variant, which will be the dominant one here and the South African one, which i understand to be even scarier, if the science has changed, why cant our capacity to produce more vaccine change . Good afternoon, nicole. I think its were going to see this is about managing expectations and youre seeing this administration talking about it taking time well into the summer before potentially we reach Herd Immunity. I do think im optimistic we will, astrazeneca and johnson johnson, they have supply on the horizon once we get those Emergency Use authorizations for both of those vaccines. This will be different, rationing will stop. So thats one. Well have we will have supply. I continue to worry about demand and the friction in the system. I remember Senator Mccaskill and i had this conversation last week and she was saying, hey, doc, what about the lack of all the kind of lack of familiarity and the pressures were putting, especially on elderly individuals, going out to max vax sites or Navigating Technology thats really cumbersome to get an appointment. You know what i found, i was trying to get an appointment for my elderly mom in ohio, and it was refreshing, a website constantly at midnight eastern standard, something thats just hard for anybody to do. We need to make the i. T. Appointment system, whatever appointment scheduling system, much more easy so we reduce friction as supply starts to flood the market. Dr. Gupta, im curious, you know, it seems to me theres a lot of logistical barriers here, and we know the people who need this vaccine the most are the elderly. Theyre all on medicare. Isnt there a way, logistically, that the Medicare Program could be used to administer these vaccines on a more proactive basis so that they just start calling in the medicare recipients . Medicare knows where they are. They know how to get ahold of them. I know im on medicare, thats how old i am, and i they know how to get ahold of me. It just seems that the logistical barriers here, the haphazard way this vaccine is rolled out has been such a problem because people are so uncertain of what their chances are of getting a shot. Well, senator, and i will say this in response to that. Medicare being primarily the way people are ensured and providers are reimbursed for that health coverage, youre right. That is there are Patient Registries of people, how you can contact these individuals, their Street Address or their telephone number. How do you actually reach these individuals to give them an appointment . That would be one potential solution. The other that i have seen effective to actually implement mass vaccination sites, whether on the civilian side or in my Military Capacity is actually having them sign up for a wait list, go to a website thats easy to actually put in the url and put your name and contact information. That, to me, is less friction to do that than to expect people to refresh a website with potentially no hope of actually securing an appointment. So, yes, absolutely, either Patient Registries from databases that we know exist with Patient Information like stored by medicare or a Wait List System that is being used successfully in certain zip codes across the country. Dr. Gupta, can you quickly just explain if the new variants, which sound scarier, are deadlier. So, there is some suggestion, nicole, and this is early data that potentially the these variants first identified in the United Kingdom and less so in south africa might actually be slightly more lethal if youre infected with it. Let me clarify, because a lot of people are confused about the vaccines. Were throwing around percent efficacy numbers and expecting people to understand them. These vaccines are broadly effective in keeping you out of the icu, whether youre infected with the variant that was identified in south africa, United Kingdom, or the one weve been battles here since january of 2020. So, the details, while they matter, the most important thing, top of mind, is the vaccine will protect you from all of these variants and will save your life. Thats the message we need to keep hammering home. Its very good to hear. Im glad i asked. Dr. Gupta, claire mccaskill, thank you both for spending time with us. Claire, thank you for being here for the whole hour. The next hour of Deadline White House starts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. We really are just getting started. Dont go anywhere. We really are just getting started. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; its important. We walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. Weve both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. After about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didnt notice before. Its still helping me. I still notice a difference. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. 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To defend against dark forces attacking your organization, you need to see in the dark. To have the wisdom to understand multiple cyber threats. The precision focus to end attacks instantly. On computers, mobile devices, servers and the cloud. Join the worlds leading companies in our mission to defend. Cybereason. End cyber attacks. From endpoints to everywhere. The only way they can take this election away from us is if this is a rigged election. The swing states that were all fighting over now, i won them all by a lot. I won them all by a lot. So, look, all i want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country. Were going to have to fight much harder, and mike pence is going to have to come through for us. Were going to walk down to the capitol building. Yeah. Invade the capitol building. Lets take the capitol. Take the capitol. Lets take it. Lets take the capitol. If you dont fight like hell, youre not going to have a country anymore. Hi again, everyone, its 5 00 in new york. According to new reporting in the new york times, those moments, those examples we just showed are evidence, theyre examples of an extensive effort to overturn the election by donald trump that played out before all our eyes and they will make up the centerpiece of the house Impeachment Managers case against trump. The former president s second Impeachment Trial begins tomorrow, and were learning just how the prosecution plans on shaping its case against him and what lessons they took from his first Impeachment Trial a year ago. More from the times reporting, quote, congressman adam schiff says his team tried to produce an hbo miniseries featuring clips of Witness Testimony to bring to life the esoteric plot about trumps Pressure Campaign on ukraine. Current lead manager, jamie raskin, may appear more like a Blockbuster Action Film to assemble the presentation raskins team has turned to the same outside firm that helped put together mr. Schiffs multimedia display. But mr. Raskin is working with vastly richer material to tell a monthslong story of how he and his colleagues believe trump seeded, gathered and provoked a mob to try to overturn his defeat. Trumps lawyers signaling they are eyeing a much more narrow focus in their defense. In a defense memo they submitted to the senate today. In a small portion that actually addresses trumps conduct, his team argues that the speech trump made on the morning of january 6th, quote, did not direct anyone to commit lawless actions, and he could not be held responsible for, quote, a small group of criminals who had come to the capitol of their own accord, armed and ready for a fight. That narrative undermined by the sheer volume of evidence mounting in court, reporting in the Washington Post lays out how trumps rhetoric fueled those who stormed the capitol. Quote, evidence to bolster the democratic case has already emerged in federal criminal cases filed against more than 185 people so far in the aftermath of the insurrection. Trumps pull on his supporters is a dominant theme. Court documents show that more than two dozen people charged in the attack specifically cited trump and his calls to gather that day in describing on social media or in conversations with others why they decided to take action by coming to washington. Even when trump is not cited by name, filings in dozens of other cases show how alleged rioters were broadly motivated by his rhetoric about a stolen election, including the false claim that mike pence could have used his ceremonial role to stop the counting of the Electoral College votes. The question remains whether republicans will be receptive to hearing what the Impeachment Managers present, but the court of Public Opinion believes donald trump should be convicted. A brandnew abc newsipsos poll finds a majority of americans, 56 , support trumps conviction and barring him from ever Holding Office again. A fuller picture emerging of the first Impeachment Trial of a former president is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Phil rucker is back, Washington Post senior washington correspondent, also joining us, melissa murray, Law Professor at new york university, and former Obama Campaign manager David Plouffes here, lucky for us, all three msnbc contributors. Phil rucker, it seems that what trumps lawyers did was sort of put together the best of the worst defense i think any of us have ever seen, even if were not lawyers. Theyve got this constitutional argument thats debunked by a farright lawyer, chuck cooper today in the Wall Street Journal, and theyve got a fact pattern thats debunked by The Insurrectionists own defenses in the charges being brought against them. Yeah. I think thats right, nicole, but what they seem to be trying to do is defending their client in this trial through a political prism. They know this isnt a trial in a court of law. Its a trial in the United States senate. They dont even need to win the support of a majority of those senators. They just need a third of them to decide that former President Trump should not be convicted, and theyre playing a political game here. What theyre trying to do is say, look, the democrats are out to get trump. This is part of a Long Campaign to undermine President Trump. Of course, its not. Its an isolated incident on january 6th, but theyre connecting with it all of the quote, unquote witch hunts that the president experienced, the former president experienced over these four years to try to generate support for him among these republican senators and to try to convince enough of the republican senators to ignore the emotion of the democrats case that theyre going to play in those videos and to instead focus on their political interests in sticking with trump. You know, david plouffe, phil rucker reported on the politics of this. I think the politics are more fluid than republicans understand, and i dare them to take this bet this week. Take a bet this week that nothing else will emerge. Youll never learn anything else about how trump sat on his tush and did nothing, sent tweets out saying, i love you. Sent tweets out saying, this is what happens. I dare republicans to bet this week that theyll never learn anything else about trumps stoking that violence. Well, i think youre right, nicole. So we see with the polls, basically everybody that voted against trump thinks he should be impeached and then a few more, including some who voted for him. I think that people are going to learn more this week who havent been paying as close enough attention about how donald trump just did the wrong thing on the 6th and did the opposite of calling it off, kind of was encouraging people. But he was the organizer. He planned this whole thing. He planned it for months. He was the reason that people walked from down pennsylvania avenue, was because he told them to. We know that in all the filings. And so we know weeks and months, theres going to be more that comes out, and so this is going to look much worse, my sense is, in june or july, than it does even today. So, i agree with that very much. Melissa, we talk about how this isnt a criminal, legal process, but its not devoid of constitutional legal obligations. The senators will swear an oath to serve as jurors. Can you talk about what that is supposed to entail . Are they supposed to look at the evidence before 45 of them vote to not look at the evidence . So, youre exactly right, nicole. They will take an oath to look at this fairly maybe not necessarily impartially. They all obviously come to this not only as senators with their own partisan leanings but also as witnesses who may have seen things on january 6th but again, it is not like an ordinary criminal trial where the defense or the prosecution, rather, is required to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Here, each senator has to be satisfied to her own standard that the bar for impeachment and conviction has been met, and so thats a very loose standard. It really is, i think, subjective to each particular senator. Theres no real standard that could be applied here, and in a way, a lot of this is going to be political theater, and thats why i think the president and his attorneys have been emphasizing this jurisdictional question about whether or not this should even be proceeding in the first place. Phil rucker, you and your colleagues have some of the best reporting on something we learned for the first time today, that trump plans to argue. They plan to argue that there was a, quote, flurry of activity on trumps part. This is what the post reported, and to my knowledge, nobody ever disputed it inside or around the white house. Quote, the message from those around him, trump, that he needed to call off the angry mob he had egged on just hours earlier or lives could be lost was one to which he was not initially receptive. Quote, it took him a while to appreciate the gravity of the situation, Lindsey Graham said in an interview. The president saw these people as allies in his journey and sympathetic to the idea that the election was stolen. Something that i understand he Still Believes, phil rucker. So, what flurry of activity that we dont know about do we expect to hear about . Well, nicole, the reality based on the extensive reporting we did through the month of january is that there was no flurry of activity in those hours during the insurrection while trumps supporters, under his banner, were holding siege to the capitol building. The president was watching it all unfold on live television, according to people who were around him, and at first, he liked what he saw, because he saw his supporters fighting for him. He thought they were fighting to try to delay if not overturn the process altogether. He thought they were doing what his own Vice President , mike pence, would not do, because the constitution, of course, barred him from doing so. But he liked this these images that he was seeing. He was reluctant to tell them to stop. He finally did, hours later, of course, issue that Video Statement where he said, go home. But he also said in that Video Statement, i love you, we love you. We gave his support. It was very clear to the people who were there, because they were waving his flag, because they were chanting his name, because they were his supporters. And again, david plouffe, all of the evidence is in full view. He wrote in that tweet, this is what happens. This is what happens. This. A deadly insurrection. In which Law Enforcement officials lose their lives against trump supporters, going there to force mike pence to do something that mike pence had no right to do, setting up a noose to hang mike pence, which they chanted. Let me show you, david plouffe, how liz cheney describes trumps conduct on that day. We have never seen that kind of an assault by a president of the United States on another branch of government, and that can never happen again. What we already know does constitute the gravest violation of his Oath Of Office by any president in the history of the country. And this is not something that we can simply look past or pretend didnt happen or try to move on. Weve got to make sure this never happens again. David plouffe, how should Democrats Use that testimony from liz cheney . Well, i think, nicole, theres not as many as there should be, but you do have republicans in the house and senate and others throughout the country who have said the right thing about this, so i think you want to lift this up. This is now a bipartisan impeachment process, the most bipartisan one i think weve ever had in the countrys history. So, yeah, i think you want to lift up those words, but my hope is theres some reporting that democrats might be considering pulling their punches a little bit because it looks like theres not going to be the votes necessary to convict. I hope thats not the case. I think this is a very important week for the country to lay it all out there as we talked earlier. Theres going to be more to come. And at the end of the day, if Donald Trumps not convicted, he may not ultimately run for president again in 2024, but we had better assume thats a live possibility. So, he needs to pay as full a price as possible, and his key adherents and organizers over the weeks and months to come, because if trumps not convicted, he and all those who played a role in this need to have their wings clipped as much as possible so they can never seek, much less hold the oval office. I mean, just to follow up, david plouffe, if you look at where he was let off, where he felt like he beat the system, it emboldened him. The day after mueller released his report, he called zelensky, the conduct for which he was impeached the first time, for abuse of power. Every time he and we used the wrong words. We called it violating a norm. But every time he violated his Oath Of Office, to be blunt, he got away with it because Mitch Mcconnell and Kevin Mccarthy didnt have the spine to hold him accountable. This seems like an opportunity to decide this way the Republican Party goes, and david plouffe, i dont care anymore what they do, because i want to know. I want them on the record. I want to know who is for lawlessness. I want to know who is for subservience. Do you think the vote boils down to any more than that from republicans . Well, that is the question. Both this week and really, i think, in our politics for many years. You are either on the prodemocracy side or the proautocracy side. And donald trump didnt violate norms. Of course he did. He was trying to destroy the country. He was trying to destroy the constitution. Weve never had a person in this country, the power he has, basically spend their entire time in office trying to poke and prod and see where the weaknesses are and see what he can get away with. And if theres not accountability for what happened in the weeks leading up to january 6th and then january 6th, we are going to have another coup attempt. Theres going to be more Election Results that people say we can just ignore. We see whats happening in arizona. Theyre trying to pass laws that say the State Legislature in arizona, no matter what the Election Results were, no matter how theyre certified, if they dont like the result, they can say, its overturned. Thats where we are today. And so, i think that is the question, and it takes everybody, democrats, republicans, independents, people who havent been involved in politics, to get on the right side of that or, you know, this entire enterprise, i think, is under existential threat. Melissa, i want to ask you about an oped that emerged in the Wall Street Journal Late Last Night from, when i say conservative, that sounds like its too general. This is a hardcore conservative republican lawyer, chuck cooper. He took out from under them the crutch that republicans are standing on, that the senate doesnt have jurisdiction over a former president. Basically arguing that the provision in impeachment that allows you to disqualify a Public Official from Holding Future Office is precisely designed for circumstances like the one the country finds itself in. Can you speak to depriving republicans of that crutch . Well, its unclear whether it will deprive them of that crutch but surely the argument is one that has been made by a majority of constitutional law scholars over the last two weeks and basically the argument is, as a matter of constitutional design, it seems nonsensical for the framers to have permitted a design in the constitution that would have allowed a president to avoid accountability for his actions simply because his term of office was coming to a conclusion. They would have wanted misconduct and surely misconduct of this nature to be accounted for and to have the president stand before the people and either be convicted and then disqualified or to be exonerated and so, again, to have someone like charles cooper, who really is a stalwart of the conservative legal movement, to make this claim that the whole idea that this is impermissible as a matter of constitutional law is really just specious. Do we have any idea its i guess its a luxury that we had the first impeachment as context. Do we have any idea what trump will do during the second impeachment . Last time, he basically live tweeted it. Do we know if he plans to watch . Do we know if hes coached his two lawyers, which i believe they represent Donald Trumps fifth legal team. This is the fifth team of lawyers whos had to represent donald trump since he was president. Do we have any idea how he plans to interact with them while the television, in his view, the Television Aspect of it is ongoing . Its a good question, nicole. I can expect that we would see some sort of statement from the president at some point in the process, but you know, the ways he communicated to the public before are just not available to him. Hes been kicked off of twitter, frankly, for the very reason hes been impeached a second time. So hes not going to have that outlet to offer live commentary. I actually dont know what he has planned, if anything, at this point. He has, of course, been strategizing not only with his new legal team but also with the handful of political advisors who remain in his orbit about what the defense would look like and what sort of arguments theyre going to be making in the senate and of course interacting with a number of Republican Senate allies about all of that as well. But i dont know, personally, what kind of personal role President Trump former President Trump will be playing as the trial gets under way. David plouffe, what are your expectations as we head into the second impeachment . Obviously, hes out of office, but as you said, his fate in the Republican Party looms over everyone involved and even if hes wearing an ankle bracelet, hell be back in iowa in four years if he isnt disqualified. What do you think the stakes are for democrats and republicans this week . Well, i think the stakes for the country are enormous, again, because if theres not accountability for what happened, were going to go through this again in 22, 24, 26, its going to become an article of faith among some republicans that the Election Results almost dont matter. We need to find a way around them, number one. Number two, it will be interesting to your question to phil, i wouldnt be surprised if trump does his, you know, goes on fox, goes on hannity this week to try to send a message to the republicans in the senate that he is watching and he has the ability to rally the base. The question is, is trump going to be someone who hangs over the next four years like a lot of us anticipate or does he become more like sarah palin who had quite a bit of effect in 2010, endorsed a lot of people in primaries, but over time, that faded. So at the end of the day, i think if he goes out of this week emboldened because he only loses a few, those that we expect, yeah, i think thats probably going to mean its more likely that he is certainly going to tell everybody hes running, so that he can have the most impact possible both in the 22 primaries and 24. But i think for the stakes for the country are enormous because at the end of the day, if we dont have peaceful transfer of power, if we dont respect Election Results, we dont have the United States of america. Right. And i think right now, unfortunately, we probably have at least 25 to 30 of the country being okay with that. I smiled only because of the memory of the glorious and not so glorious rise and fall of sarah palin. None of this is funny. Phil rucker, melissa murray, thank you both for starting us off. David plouffe, were going ask you to stick around. When we return, on the eve of Donald Trumps unprecedented second Impeachment Trial, well talk to a member of congress who is among the last to leave the House Of Representatives on the day of the insurrection on january 6th as rioters breached the capitol. Plus a majority of americans want to see donald trump convicted and barred from Holding Future Office. Steve kornacki will join us from the big board and explain whats different. And why Health Experts say theyre concerned but not yet panicked about the ability of coronavirus vaccines to fight off those new, scary variants. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere today. Break. Dont go anywhere today. Complet, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. Whoohoo great tasting ensure with 9 grams of protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients to support immune health. This is a color laser printer. And nutrients to and this is the color toner cartridge. Theyre so expensive, people just print in black and white so they dont have to keep buyin them. Walk with me. Thats enough the Epson Ecotank cartridgefree printer. Big ink tanks. Lots of ink. And you can save a ridiculous amount on replacement ink. Print in color, all you want, without busting your budget. But you might be bustin a move. The Epson Ecotank. Just fill and chill. Keeping your oysters Business Growing has you swamped. You need to hire. I need indeed indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base claim your seventyfivedollar credit when you post your first job at indeed. Com promo what do you say to people who say, come on, just move on . Well, thats the problem. The reason why it took a violent insurrection, a white supremacist mob seizing the capitol, waving the confederate flag, erecting a noose on the west lawn of the capitol, injury and loss of life, for many to appreciate the threat that Wheat Supremacy is to every american and to our democracy. The reason it took that incident, that harrowing, traumatic, those events on january 6th, is because as a country, we have been turning the page. Mincing no words, democratic congresswoman Ayanna Pressly making it clear that calls to move on are calls to absolve those who incited a deadly insurrection against our democracy. That process of holding those responsible accountable takes a big step forward tomorrow with the start of Donald Trumps second Impeachment Trial. The proceedings will begin with what is likely to be a tense debate on the constitutionality of putting a former president on trial right in the very same chamber that was the scene of the deadly insurrection he is charged with inciting. Joining our conversation, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut, a member of the intelligence committee. David plouffe is still along. Congressman, i want to just get you on the record on the two new developments today. One, this blow to the Constitutionality Argument that 45 republican senators used to hide under, frankly, to take a pass on whether or not to hold donald trump accountable. Do you think it cracks open any minds, or do you think it simply illuminates the shallowness of their position . Well, you know, the positions sort of absurd on the face of it, but because i mean, the idea that a president has this period at the end of his or her term, and maybe that period is four weeks or maybe its two months, depending on how long impeachment and a trial take, that in which that president enjoys complete impunity for his or her actions is, of course, absurd on the face of it, quite apart from the historical precedent where people have been impeached and convicted after they left office. So, understand whats happening here. Theres not a republican senator who wants to grapple with the facts of this case, because its pretty damning stuff. So, instead, theyre going to cling to a process argument, trusting that they can throw enough sand in the gears so that even though lots of fancy lawyers are saying that its absurd, their constitutionalist argument, that they can create just enough doubt in the minds of people who arent maybe watching this 24 7 to not have to grapple with the facts and the president s behavior. The public sentiment on this is, i believe, in a different place than it was one year ago. Youve got 56 of americans who believe that donald trump should be convicted and barred from running for office again. What do you think the role of Public Opinion will play from this point forward where its not so much that events will be unpredictable but its unpredictable how the public will process what they see laid out as evidence in this weeks trial. Yeah, its a i actually think thats the key question. I was i had a different perspective than your last bunch of guests. First of all, the probability that 17 republican senators are going to convict here is pretty low. And but i nonetheless believe that donald trump will meet accountability, maybe it will at the hands of the authorities in the State Of Georgia or the authorities in new york. What im really focused on is the very significant number of americans, a significant majority of the Republican Party who continue to believe the lie that the election was stolen from donald trump. Yeah. A significant majority of Donald Trumps supporters who were actually open to insane theories around qanon and democrats are drinking the blood of kidnapped children. To me, thats the key. You ask about Public Opinion. One of the things i hope this trial does, and one of the things that i hope we all do in the coming months and maybe even years is just show how completely absurd and fantastical those beliefs are, because those beliefs, of course, without those beliefs, without those willingness to believe in obvious lies, donald trump is not nearly the threat that he is. When he can get people to believe truly insane lies. And so i think changing Public Opinion is the job of the next couple of years. Hey, congressman, its david plouffe. A question for you, particularly if theres not full accountability for trumps role in the insurrection. How concerned are you about, when you look at the Congressional Elections of 22 and the next president ial election, that there are going to be republicans out there who maybe they dont organize a siege on the capitol, but they try and follow this playbook and basically if they lose a close election, they say it was stolen, refuse to concede, and try and find some way to overturn the will of the people. Im very concerned, david. Thats in essence what i was just alluding to. And lets face it. Regardless of what happens, donald trump is not going to get the accountability that he deserves. A man who over four years in office at every moment, including when he was with vladimir putin, including when he was talking to the ukrainian president , and i could go on and on and on, chose his selfinterest over the health and wellbeing of the country over which he presides, there is no accountability short of the man spending the rest of his life in jail that would be that would be proportionate to what he did over his four years. And so, david, you ask exactly the right question. What scares me more than whether donald trump ultimately meets the accountability he deserves is the fact that there are other donald trump wannabes out there. Im thinking senator josh hawley, senator ted cruz, who are a hell of a lot smarter, a lot less clownlike, and understand the gears and levers of government an awful lot more than donald trump did and now they know there is this Burrabling Fuel Out there and theyre going to be better at using that fuel in an authoritarian way than donald trump ever was, which is why i come back to the point i just made about how important it is for americans to see that down that path lies tragedy. Well, let me push on this open door a little further. We had michael on in the last hour whos covering the billion dollar 2. 7 billion lawsuits by the Voting Technology companies who were smeared along with the big lie that donald trump really programmed into people. Millions of people believed the big lie. Millions of people believe there was fraud even though, i think, 60 to 70, 80 courts found there was none. Bill barr said there was none. What do you do to sort of not deprogram thats the wrong word but to combat the big lie that is still taken at face value by millions of americans. Ive got two answers to that question, nicole. First, im delighted to see these Voting Machine Companies really taking it to people like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell and, of course, you know, fox news. They care about their wallets, and if the world learns that when you lie on television and you can be impoverished through a defamation suit, that will change an awful lot of actors behavior. But nicole, i have a better answer, and thats my second answer, which is, i am actually looking forward to moving on beyond impeachment and talking about donald trump, because i think were on the verge of delivering very substantial aid and real competence to the american people. Were seeing the Vaccination Rates go up pretty dramatically. We are seeing a couple of weeks, hopefully, before we can deliver very real aid to the american people, and to me, trusting as i do in the fundamental pragmatism of americans, look, you know, these folks have been told these folks that attacked the capitol and there are many, many supporters out there, that when joe biden is elected, communism and socialism will come to america, Vice President harris will soon be president , and we will be drinking the blood of kidnapped i mean, it is just bizarre. So, if instead of the apocalypse that they have been promised, we actually deliver real economic aid, real economic growth, real competence . And i vaccine, right. There are going to be people on the extreme always, but an awful lot of people are going to say, whoa, wait a minute, we were promised the apocalypse and i just got a 1,600 check. Explain that to me. And a vaccine and my, you know, workplace, my restaurant is open again, i can go back to work. Youre right. Getting beyond this. Getting through it to get beyond it is the name of the game. Congressman jim himes, thank you so much for spending some time with us. David plouffe is sticking around. When we return, Bruce Springsteen called on americans to remember the middle last night in a Super Bowl Ad. Today, on the eve of Donald Trumps second Impeachment Trial, the middle wants the senate to convict. Steve kornacki joins us from the big board next. E kornacki joinse Big Board Next Man whats my safelite story . My truck. Is my livelihood. So when my windshield cracked. The experts at Safelite Autoglass came right to me. With service i could trust. Right, girl . Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. I have an idea for a trade. Oh yeah, you going to place it . Not until im sure. Why dont you call Td Ameritrade for a Strategy Gut Check . Whats that . You run it by an expert, you talk about the risk and potential profit and loss. Couldve used that before i hired my interior decorator. Voila maybe a couple Throw Pillows would help. Get a Strategy Gut Check from our trade desk. Waynes world, waynes world, party time, excellent. Hey everyone, welcome to waynes world. Party on, wayne. Party on, garth. As a local access show, we want everyone to support local restaurants. But, wed never manipulate you like the way all these other commercials do. Shyeah, thats really sad. Wed never shamelessly rely on a celebrity cameo. Right cardi b . Yeah eat local giggles local eats, waynes world, yummy. Say hello to way more quality finds youll love on wayfair. Way more brands you trust. And way more dependability. So with wayfair youll always find your perfect match. Cyber attacks are relentlessly advancing. To end them, cybereason built a Cyber Security solution so advanced. It can end attacks today on computers, mobile devices, servers and the cloud. And deliver futureready protection, keeping you sharp for tomorrow. Join us, the defenders, in our mission. Cybereason. End cyber attacks. From endpoints to everywhere. Its no secret, the middle has been a hard place to get to lately. Between red and blue, between servant and citizen. We need the middle. We just have to remember the very soil we stand on is common ground. So we can get there. We can make it to the mountaintop through the desert, and we will cross this divide. Our light has always found its way through the darkness, and theres hope on the road up ahead. You see that last night . The Super Bowl Ad everyones talking about. I believe thats what they call reading the room. The new unitythemed ad from jeep, in case you couldnt tell. Two full minutes of super bowl air time dedicated to, as you saw, the middle, courtesy of the boss himself, Bruce Springsteen. Its especially powerful message ahead of another Impeachment Trial. So where does the middle, the majority, stand on impeachment . We showed you that abc newsipsos poll. 56 of americans believe donald trump should be convict bid the senate and forbidden from ever Holding Office again. Take a look at independents. Theyre not that far off. 54 of independent americans think trump should be convicted too. Lets bring into our conversation nbc news and msnbc National Political correspondent, our friend, steve kornacki. David plouffe is also here. Steve, this feels so different from a year ago. Lets explain. Lets take a look at this question, conviction now in the polling compared to basically exactly a year ago when that first trump Impeachment Trial was beginning. So, what you see here, this is the average of all the different polls that are out there right now on this question, the basic question the senate is facing, 50 on average say convict, 43 say, acquit. So, what was the average of polls a year ago on the eve of the first trump Impeachment Trial . It has changed a little bit. It is a little bit different since then. It was right down the middle last time around, 47 , 47 . You see theres an uptick there when it comes to convicting, not as much on the acquittal side. So, there is a difference there. There is more support, it would seem, this time around than there was last time around. When you look at the political question here, though, you know, keep asking, look, democrats would need a third of the republicans in the senate. They would need 17 republicans to join with them to actually get a conviction. What about this number . This is among republican voters, and you got to think a lot of those republican senators are looking at this number, and this is what really looks similar to last year, singledigit republican support for convicting trump, overwhelming 90 , nearly 90 support for acquittal, so i think theres been some movement, and you say, in the middle, i think there has been some movement there, but when you look at the Republican Party, the republican electorate, republican voters, there really hasnt been movement there, so when you come to that bottom line political question of will there be a ground swell of republican senators moving toward conviction . They are looking at the same numbers they looked at last year even as the rest of the electorate has moved a tick toward conviction. David plouffes going to jump in but let me point out that does make it notable. I dont want to call it extraordinary because we used to consider this doing your job that liz cheney and ten republicans voted to impeach donald trump in the house. Theyre looking at the same polls youre showing us. We had, remember, last time around, what was the vote in the senate last time . There was one republican, mitt romney, who voted to convict. Now, we dont know what the number will be this time around. Again, the idea that it will get to 17, theres not been an indication of that, but that sort of test vote they had a couple weeks ago when rand paul forced the vote on, is it constitutional, some indications there, maybe five, well see tomorrow, i think, in a vote. Maybe are there half a dozen republicans this time around . I think the expectation is there will be more this time in the senate than last time around, not necessarily 17, but more. Hey, steve, its david. Im curious, based on what you know about the general electorate, particularly the republican electorate, if that question was not convict and be banned from running for office, if it was just banned from office, do you still think its a 9 , 10 with the republicans or do you think maybe it would creep up a little bit . So its interesting. And the question is asked differently and we have i dont know if its in here. Okay. So, this is interesting. This is a poll that just asked the question, and youre looking at all voters right here, this is democrat, republican, independent, but this is barring trump from future federal office, so its asking the question exactly that way. This is one poll. This is not an average, but this was the monmouth poll, and this was about ten days ago. But they found 57 favoring, barring him from running for office in the future, 41 opposing it and i think the republican cross tab, i dont have it here, i think that did tick into double digits on that question so i do think thats an interesting question there, convict, acquit, when you put it in those terms, does that play a little bit differently with the Poll Response than just, favoring and opposing barring somebody from running for office in the future. Yeah, i want to ask you about sort of the opinion in the Republican Party around not necessarily polling on Kevin Mccarthy, unless youve seen it, but around his conduct and his recent public conduct of axios reported over the weekend that he had asked liz cheney to apologize, she refused, and he really stood by marjorie Taylor Greene last week. That was the big republican scandal of the week that Kevin Mccarthy laid down as qanon took over the brand of the Republican Party. Where is public sentiment on Kevin Mccarthys leadership this week . You know, again, i havent seen any numbers specifically on mccarthy, but again, i think, again, its this number right here. Its just there was that moment, im going to say, about two weeks ago, sort of in the aftermath of the January 6th Attack, you had some republicans, like liz cheney, you mentioned, who hadnt spoken out against trump before, suddenly making that move. I remember Mitch Mcconnell put out some indications that, hey, maybe he was willing, potentially, to go along with that, and i think these numbers, what you have just seen in the polling since then, again, on that question of, this is the convict acquit number, seeing the numbers within the Republican Party look pretty much like theyve looked for the last four years, i think when those polls started to come out like that, it seemed to me at least that kind of stopped the movement that we were starting to see a little bit there of more republicans, you know, kind of turning on trump and maybe looking for a new direction. So, again, it seems to have landed in a place right now, at least, where theres, you know, maybe five, maybe six republicans in the senate this time around compared to one, but i think a couple weeks ago, you were talking about, hey, could that thing turn into a little bit more of a stampede here, get into double digits, and i think when you see numbers like that, it explains just politically, whatever you think of everything that underlies it, i think just politically, it explains the posture youre seeing from a lot of republicans right now. Frankly, they think this is still a party. They think their voters remain loyal in a lot of ways to donald trump. Well, david plouffe, i dont think thats in question, but it does reveal just how political this is. And the only people making it into a sham trial are the republicans. I want to ask you to elaborate, david plouffe, on something that the congressman just said, that its not about changing these numbers with the current conversation, and i think steve, you might agree, and i would ask you to jump in too. Its about changing the question. And it sounds like what democrats are thinking, that if the answers trump, youre asking the wrong question. And if the answer if you want to change the answer, it has to be, who made sure your mom got her vaccine . Who made sure you got your vaccine . Who made sure your Office Opened up again, your restaurant opened up again, all the boards outside the local businesses in your main street were taken down and businesses open again. At this point, with the aid package, it looks like its going to be the biden administration. Oh, i think so, nicole. I mean, steve has great insight into this question as well, but you know, we live in such a divided country, you know, president s who come into office dont all of a sudden, even if they win a close election, it used to start with a honeymoon period. They dont exist anymore. Biden is polling in the high 50s, and i think in part, thats because hes just doing the job, hes not harassing people on twitter. And thats before the aid package gets passed, before the vaccinations get in. I also think something congressman himes said is right, which is, everybody in the country was told that biden is going to destroy the country, youre not going to be able to fly on an airplane, you cant buy a hamburger, theyre going to have to sell your car. And you know, hell be a disastrous president and hes just kind of doing the job and i think that kind of unsexy but needed approach is such a departure from what he was told that that score, i think, so when his Approval Rating gets into the high 50s, maybe if the aid package gets passed and the Vaccination Rate continues to increase, you could get 60 , 61 . Im not sure i thought that was possible in todays america unless you had an event like post9 11. Thats whats really interesting to me. Steve, i want your thoughts on the same question, and just share some more poll numbers. I mean, the ones i saw in the aid package last week had the aid package around 60 . Where is biden polling . Where is the Aid Package Polling . Are you surprised . Yeah, so, i think its interesting because this is one of my questions coming into the biden presidency, has the polarization, the tribalism that weve talked so much over the last four years that we certainly saw around trump, is that just going to extend to biden, or is he going to be able to get his popularity to a level that donald trump never did . Remember, we talked about trump never, in four years, broke 50 in his Approval Rating, so ill just write it down here. The average, if you looked at it, at least over the weekend, joe bidens average Approval Rating was sitting at 54 . So about twoplus weeks into his presidency, his average was sitting at 54 . Donald trumps average Approval Rating two weeks into his presidency was 44 . And it never really got much higher, you know, 46 , 47 is about where he topped out, so biden, you know, ten points higher, over 50 , that already puts him in a place that trump never got to. Now, compare it one step further, if you went back to barack obama early 2009, a couple weeks into his presidency, you were looking at 63 . So you were looking at he was able he was in the low 60s early on, republican, and obama was able to get eventually his Stimulus Package through early in 2009, got a couple of republicans on board with that. So, its, yeah, look, obama was in the 60s. That didnt last too long but he was in the 60s early. Trump never got out of the 40s. And biden right now is between the two of them so he is showing the ability to get that Approval Rating to a level that trump never did. Can he get it higher than that . It would be an interesting question, especially, i think, its a question as this first term goes on, if the economy starts to really turn around as we get away from covid. Thats also interesting. Well watch it together. Steve kornacki, david plouffe, thank you for spending time with us today. When we come back, its a race between coronavirus vaccines and those highly contagious variants of the coronavirus. Today, we learned that in one country, the variant may be winning. That story is next. The variant winning. That story is next here you go, let me help you. Hi mr. Charles, we made you dinner. Ahh, thank you ready to eat . Yes i am new projects means new project managers. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. Claim your Seventy Five Dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed. Com home. quiet piano music comfort in the extreme. The lincoln family of luxury suvs. Oh, oh, oh, ozempic® announcer onceweekly ozempic® is helping many people with Type 2 Diabetes like emily lower their blood sugar. A majority of adults who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. Heres your a1c. Oh my a1c is under 7 announcer and you may lose weight. 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South africa has halted plans to vaccinate its frontline workers with the Oxford Astrazeneca vaccine after a study of 2,000 people showed the vaccine provided only minimal protection against mild to moderate disease from the dominant strain there. Researchers are still looking into whether the vaccine works against the variant to prevent death and severe disease. This finding, though luckily the first of its kind, now serves as evidence that the highly contagious variant thats accounted for more than 90 of cases in south africa, is learning how to evade antibodies and can seriously impact the effectiveness of vaccines. Joining our conversation, nbc News Senior International correspondent keir simmons, whos on the story live for us from london. Keir, this is obviously disappointing to everyone who is hoping that the vaccines, all of them, are sort of our answer. But explain whether or not the Oxford Astrazeneca vaccine will now be deemed not useful or whether it may be shifted to other countries and other parts of the population. Reporter yeah, ands also the science of this, nicolle, can seem pretty daunting to people. Actually, in a sense its pretty straightforward. This virus wants to survive and it even wants to thrive. So it is constantly producing mutations. And when those mutations make it more effective, if you like, those mutations begin to do well and here you have a new variant of the virus. So for example, were seeing these variants that are making it more effective infectious, im sorry. And in south africa now were seeing this variant that is enabling it to overcome the bodys immune system. Heres why its really important. Its a warning to america. Is whats happened in south africa is in the first wave many people were infected. They produced antibodies. In a sense that taught the virus to overcome those antibodies. And now theyre seeing in the second wave this new variant that has the ability to overcome vaccines. Specifically the astrazeneca vaccine, this study now shows. In milder cases it does not protect against milder forms of the disease. What does that mean . It means we still need to get the numbers of the virus down so it doesnt mutate so well, and it also means that the vaccine producers are having to race to produce new vaccines to figure out how to overcome not just these variants but other variants in the future. Take a listen. I think we should be concerned about the variants but certainly not panic. Our Research Program like those of many Vaccine Developers around the world is now focused on these variants asking the question can we develop vaccines specific to those variants very quickly, how much difference would that make, how long would it take, and is that something that needs to go forward very rapidly. Reporter and astrazeneca, nicolle, making clear tonight that it Still Believes that its vaccine does protect against severe disease. And just to be clear, other vaccines are still effective even against the South African variant. But in a way think about this virus as buying lottery tickets all around the world. Lottery tickets for its own survival. And the more infections there are around the world the more lottery tickets it gets. Another point, nicolle, i think we all want from our politicians, from our lawmakers, certainty but this is a virus. Its biological. It isnt mechanical. So even the scientists are constantly trying to catch up, figure out what its doing. And thats why its so crucial that around the world we have this Monitoring System that were starting to build and theyre racing to catch up in in the u. S. So that we can see these variants and mutations as they appear. Nbcs keir simmons with great reporting and great analysis that brought me a little shard of calm. Thank you for that. Live for us in london. Thank you, my friend. Reporter you bet. Finally, as we do every single day, remembering lives well lived. The night before it happened life was normal. And it was perfect. 9yearold j. J. Boatman and his dad went about their bedtime routine. A nice bath, a beard made of bubbles, and a riveting conversation having to do with vampires. J. J. Mentioned that he had a sore throat. So dad prescribed cough medicine plus cartoons in bed for good measure. They watched together. Until j. J. Fell asleep. Thats life, right . Normal perfect life with a 9yearold. But shortly after j. J. Woke up he said he couldnt breathe. He tested positive for covid19 at the hospital, and he died the next day. J. J. Boatman was a sweetheart. He liked to smile. He loved his older sisters. He loved tennis, cartoons, drawing. J. J. s dad told today. Com that it is so hard to imagine life without him. He never got the chance to really fully live. Hes right. Coronavirus robbed j. J. Of a future, and it robbed his family of him. Well be right back. We made usaa insurance for members like kate. A former army medic, made of the flexibility to handle whatever monday has in store and tackle four things at once. So when her car got hit, she didnt worry. She simply filed a claim on her usaa app and said. I got this. Usaa insurance is made the way kate needs it easy. She can even pick her payment plan so its easy on her budget and her life. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Usaa. When youve got a business, you dont want to worry usaa. What youre made of, were made for. About slow internet or confusing cybersecurity. So get comcast Business Internet with fast, reliable speeds, and add the advanced security of comcast business securityedge. It combines the speed you need with threat protection. Plus theres 24 7 support. Its internet and advanced security made simple. So bounce forward with comcast business. Get started with a powerful internet and voice solution for just 64. 90 a month. And ask how to add comcast business securityedge. Call today. Thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful. The beat with ari melber starts right now. Hi, ari. Hi, nicolle. Thank you very much. I am ari melber. Welcome to the beat on the eve of Donald Trumps second Impeachment Trial, with the final clashes between House Managers and trumps defense lawyers who argue in their final brief that all of this really just boils down to a, quote, selfish move by democrats to foment political theater. Those democratic managers, though, were seen leaving speaker pelosis office today. A solemn strategy session as they have been planning their case. Their case is that this trial seeks accountability for what they call the most grievous constitutional crime ever committed by a president. Thats a major claim. Arguing that trumps encouragement of the january 6th insurrection is worse than any act by, say, richard nixon, who was of course run out of office unr