Crimes and an insurrection and where we go from here as a nation. In fact, these two stories that i just mentioned to you tonight, theyre linked. How does President Biden work with a party that has some of its prominent leaders lying about his lawful victory and some, and to be precise and fair not all, but some elected republicans minimizing the violence that left five dead at the capitol. How do you do negotiations over the basics when you dont have any understanding on the fundamentals . There are a lot of Smart Thinkers whove studied these types of issues in different societies and a lot of progressives right now around the Biden Administration who say there can be no unity, no true democracy under the rule of law, unless there are facts and accountability first. Keep that in mind as you see this news tonight. Former President Trump wants to exploit the upcoming trial as a chance to double down on the election lie that partly fed the insurrection. He wants to take on the truth that President Biden won the race and instead push lies about it. As a matter of law and logic, i always try to keep it straightforward with you. So ill just tell you whats going on. It makes no sense as a matter of logic to repeat at your trial for inciting insurrection that youre still pushing the lie that led at least partly to the insurrection. But as a matter of brute force, amoral politics the strategy here looks like embracing the growing autocratic wing of the Republican Party. And trump as a Defendant Daring top elected republican senators to oppose him on that. So for those who ask whats the point of even holding this trial next week, well, tonight you see one part of the answer. At a time when some in the gop would like to pretend they quietly opposed the insurrection without actually opposing the insurrection, without actually standing up to the lie at the center of it, well, they will have a harder time. This trial may bring out more hard truths about how wide that support may be for americans to know, to make informed decisions. There are elections in the future as well. And this may be a hard process that is worth having for them and for us. And i mean us in the broad sense of us, as a nation going through this together. Meanwhile, as donald trump previews his strategy and adds some lawyers including one who worked for a convicted trump aide who trump pardoned, its that kind of legal party over there, theres also new evidence emerging including how donald trump was secretly plotting to illegally steal the election after this reality began to sink in. We can now project that former Vice President joe biden has been elected president of the United States. In the middle of a pandemic, almost 150 million americans voted, and joe biden and Kamala Harris will receive the most votes of any president ial ticket ever. That was in public. We all remember it. But these new reports tonight im telling you about show you that within days of the election being called Donald Trumps main or initial legal team was privately telling him they didnt have a single legal case that would change the national outcome. And new leaks from inside that process reveal trumps response was basically fine, if theres no legal way to win, no legal way to win, find an illegal way. Now, some of that may sound familiar, i admit. We did all trump try to steal the race in public and fail to steal the race in public. But heres the new reporting from inside those secret plotting sessions. The New York Times reporting as trumps flimsy long shot legal effort to reverse his loss turned into Something Else entirely, an extralegal campaign to subvert the election. That report adds to evidence that the insurrection was actually a final and partially planned step in what the times calls in this new bombshell an extralegal plot. Now, again, let me help everyone if you dont know the difference because the times is being very nice. Theres legal and illegal. We dont have a third category under law in this country. And they are referring to the illegal plot which came from the white house including new evidence that the infamous plan to march toward the Capitol On January 6th came actually from the white house because many of the people and maga supporters who went to the mall were initially planning to stay at the mall ellipse until the counting of the state electoral slates was completed. But the Trump White House had the idea to have them march on to the capitol. Donald trump memorably saying so at his appearance. And lying to his own supporters, by the way, because to pump them up he claimed he would march with them. And he didnt. But the new account here is that what we saw transpire was partly the product of the white house changing the plan. What was ultimately a battle plan. Thats bad. Constitutionally it does not technically prove that donald trump incited the insurrection. That is actually what the Senate Trials supposed to determine. And if we are going to follow the rule of law in this country, what you or i or anyone thinks about it is separate from what the constitution requires. That if there is evidence of a high crime by a sitting president the senate adjudicates this. But all of this adds to the evidence that the man who tried to steal an election and end democracy, who continues to run the gop, was involved in some of these premeditated steps that led to an insurrection that left five dead. This is not a time for predictions. We all live through predictions in 2016 and other eras that didnt prove out so well. This is a time for substance and the rule of law. And it is worth the federal governments time to get all the evidence on this and figure out what if anything to do about it. Im joined now by mara gay from the New York Times and melissa murray, law professor with new york university. Welcome to you both. Professor, walk us through your views on what is partly a trial on process and partly constitutionally different, but if were going to take it seriouy senate and the nation to go through this evidence which as i report some of it is still coming out. Well, as you say, impeachment is not like an ordinary legal process. Its not like an ordinary criminal trial. There are different standards of proof. There are different evidentiary standards. There is an element of political theater to this. And certainly everything thats emerged with the New York Times reporting also has an element of political theater to it as well. The other issue about the impeachment i think is very different and relevant here is that many of the individuals who are going to be jurors passing judgment on whether or not the president deserves to be convicted of the articles of impeachment were witnesses and so having all of this come out, noting the reporting that links the president specifically with the decision to march to the capitol, to wreak havoc on the capitol, all of that i think is incredibly important not just for the public to hear but to see how those jurors respond to it as they make their decisions about whether impeachment is warranted in this case, or conviction is warranted. Mara . I couldnt agree more. The reality is that donald trump is very good at using any stage he is given to his advantage. So thats an inherent risk. But there needs to be accountability. And i think the important thing is that unlike in the past four years there are going to be adults in the room who can give a Reality Check really to what donald trump is saying. So this is a risk that we really need to take, and i also think its important because it needs to be part of really Holding Accountable everybody involved and also really forging forth on a 9 11style commission to really understand what happened and to start looking at domestic terror groups. So this is just one piece of what needs to happen before we can move forward. Right. As you remind us, there are multiple levers in the government. This trump trial, which starts in a week, is one. Our panel stays as we bring in neal katyal. The update on next week is these managers want to build an elaborate and emotionally clear case. They say they will use the Video Evidence, potentially witnesses. They want to make republican senators uncomfortable if they are going to try to minimize the facts. And joining our panel is neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the United States in the obama administration. Neal, your view of what were learning about the presentation of those facts. And i want to say, and i think all three of our panelists are on the same page here on this, the evidence we get we have to respond to. If there was new evidence from the times or the process that showed that on the day before the trial the white house intervened concerned to try to prevent violence or donald trump personally said wait a minute, i dont want the march to get out of control, we would factor that in too. It would be good for the country to get that. It happens, i think people know, that the president s doubling down and the evidence is going the other way. But neal, walk us through all of the above. Yeah so, thats exactly right. And thats why a fast trial has always been good for donald trump because i dont think anyone realistically thinks theres some evidence thats going to exonerate him thats going to come to light. All thats going to happen with additional time is more evidence is going to come out about his misdeeds. So i expect the prosecution to make, ari, exactly that emotionally compelling case based on Video Evidence and other things. The real question is what the Defense Strategy is going to be. And here we learned that trump lost all five of his Impeachment Lawyers over the weekend and the story isnt totally clear but at least the New York Times is reporting the reason why they quit is because trump wants to argue in his defense in this trial next week that the election was in fact stolen. And look, lawyers are going to defend a lot of things. But this argument was so beyond the pale evidently that he lost all five of his lawyers. And that isnt of course really a defense of Donald Trumps conduct. Thats really an admission of his guilt. I mean, this theory that theres a big lie and the Election Fraud happened is really just saying the violence was justified. And really the only thing its good for is an admission that donald trump is cuckoo for cocoa puffs. And maybe it will set up an Insanity Defense in some sort of criminal proceedings. But i dont think anyone in the real world thinks this is a legitimate defense. And thats why evidently he lost these lawyers. The question is now what are his two new lawyers going to run next week . Well, and thats such a great point, neal, that bears unpacking a little bit. Ill go back to you and melissa on. Which is this is not a denial of hey, it didnt happen, denying the insurrection would be difficult on video. Denying whether he incited or not is part of that trickier evidence that the senate has to weigh. But if you take this in three parts, what they felt about the election, what they did about it, and whether trump caused it, right . You have him closing the circle. As you said, on one of the guilty parts. What they felt hes going to double down on, which sounds like a mitigation for the act. But it doesnt work if its a blatant lie, neal. Exactly. And id be really curious about melissas views on this. But for me as a lawyer if im sitting there trying to put myself in trumps lawyer shoes the idea that i would go and stand up and say as my defense, well, this actually happened and the election was stolen after 63 different courts ruled against it and the Supreme Court said they had no didnt even touch this with a tenfoot pole, i think is a disastrous strategy. And so its not surprising to me that these lawyers quit. Even on the eve of trial. Which one of the most ethically fraught things you can do as a lawyer is leave your client right on the eve of a trial. But they did. And i think for good reason. I have no i dont quibble with any of that, what neal has said. As lawyers, as Law Professors we teach our students that there are difficult circumstances where you have to tell a client news that he or she does not want to hear. And this is certainly one of those occasions. To the point of the Election Fraud as a defense, though, this again is right on brand. Again, a year ago we were in another Impeachment Trial where this president chose to obfuscate and say this was not about his call to the ukraine but rather about hunter biden and his dealings in the ukraine. So again, rather than confronting squarely the question did the president enable this particular insurrection on the capitol, we are instead talking about a lie that has since been discredited, and roundly so. Yeah. And so thats the law. I turn to mara on the larger logic and being a talented writer we look to you to make sense of even strange world events. This is where again the trial could be clarifying. There are people who still want to minimize what donald trump is doing. At the risk of i dont want to trivialize anything because a lot of this is important. But everyone remembers that great aaron sorkin scene in his view of the facebook story in Social Network when the zuckerberg character says, well, if you invented facebook you would have invented facebook. And thats got to be a moment for this to paraphrase neal this cocoa puffs strategy of the expresident having his lawyers go into the senate and look at everybody and say donald trump won and is president. If you were president , you would be president. If you won the election in a rule of law society, youd be president. Youre not because youre a cocoa puffs liar. Mara. Yes, ari. All jokes aside, though, the problem is that there are . Americans, a small but very dedicated group of americans who actually believe that lie. And as long as the disinformation gets a hearing in open court so to speak, in this case in the halls of congress, its going to be taken more seriously than it should. But this is whats required in order to have accountability. And thats very frustrating. I also think that donald trump is a master of what aboutism, which is to say hes not necessarily going to spend a lot of time denying, as the three of you said, that there was an insurrection at the capitol. But hes going to say, well, what about antifa, what about all these violent leftists . Hes a Master Manipulator in that sense. And i think the gop in general has become very good at that. So thats something to look out for. And that people need to be prepared for in a really bipartisan and serious way. If we can see folks like Mitch Mcconnell act in the coming days as much with as much seriousness and gravity as they did in the hours after the insurrection, i think that the country will be in good shape. All important points as we kick it off here. Mara gay, melissa murray, and neal katyal, thanks to each of you. We have a 30second break. But new reporting. Were learning about what happened in this biden covid meeting today. Also the investigation into a disturbing video of Police Using Pepper Spray on a 9yearold girl. We have an Accountability Report on that later. And how republicans are trying to clamp down on voting. Plus later tonight novelist Bret Easton Ellis makes his beat debut. Weve got a lot coming up. Ill be back in 30 seconds. Econs to actively repair and strengthen enamel. So you dont just brush to clean, you brush to build. Pronamel intensive enamel repair. Dad, its a video call. Hold the phone in front of you. Hows that . Get. Get mom. [ding] power e trade gives you an awardwinning app with 24 7 support when you need it the most. Dont get mad. Get e trade and start trading today. Breaking news on the ongoing battle to get covid and economic relief. At this moment we can tell you Ten Senate Republicans are still inside this highstakes meeting with President Biden at the white house. Theyre pushing an aufshlt smaller covid bill. We can hear from them soon. You can see everyone set up in that snowy spot outside of the white house to see what comes out of the meeting. Let me tell you exactly whats going on, though. Democrats have basically about a 2 trillion bill. It includes the 1400 Stimulus Checks which they say are crucial, state and local aid which was lagging under trump, and 170 billion for schools. The republican plan doesnt come anywhere near that. Its about a third of the size, smaller checks. Theres really no state aid to speak of. And the school aid is 150 billion less. Now, republicans say the reason for this is not just whether they want to support those things but they are talking up debt. Of course they were mostly silent when they were part of a trump spike in the debt of over 7 trillion in the last four years. Now, Many Democrats have been looking to a moment like this. Theyve won those two seats in georgia. They took control of the senate and demoted Mitch Mcconnell. And they want to go big. Many progressives say its time for democrats to learn from the obama experience. You can go all the way back to 2009. That yes, they want to welcome republicans to their plans but they dont want to change everything for nothing. Now, this is a conversation you might see online, you might talk about it at a dinner or barbecue, but its really got main line you that dont see this every day. A politician admitting maybe their critics were right because the Top Senate Democrat Chuck Schumer says basically theyve learned that too much republican outreach in the obama era was a mistake. So here we go. Listen to schumer then and now. The bottom line is we prefer a bipartisan approach. If we cant move forward with them, well have to do it on our own. Getting the job done in a big bold way is the number one priority. In the senate we cant pass anything without a bipartisan agreement. We cannot do the mistake of 2009. On the aca they spent a year, year and a half negotiating, and then didnt come to any agreement. Were joined now by an expert on exactly these political tradeoffs. Jay coleman is a veteran of three president ial campaigns including obama and clinton. Good evening, sir. How are you, ari . Im great. Chuck schumer doesnt often talk about his own political mistakes. Indeed, he sees himself and is widely seen as quite shrewd. Thats why he got that top post. What does it tell you that if you will hes gone from basically trying to sound like the mccain, graham golden age era to in 2021 he sounds like a daily kos blogger. Very true. And i think hes learned from the past mistakes that democrats have made. Look, this for the white house is really a delicate balance. Its a balance between joe bidens personal belief in bipartisanship and unity. I think joe biden if you asked him what the biden brand consists of he would say bipartisanship. Now, contrast this with the very real fact that americans really dont care about bipartisanship. No american who received a Stimulus Check will not cash it because a deal wasnt bipartisan. Americans simply want results. And if the economy does not recover biden will be blamed for it. The gop will not be blamed for it. Theyll pick up from it. But biden will be blamed for it. Very much the same way in 2010, if you remember, obama was blamed for the weak recovery. Nobody gave him any credit for all those concessions he made to republicans. Yeah, you just laid it out. Were talking about money. This is real money talk. To extend your very clear point, chai, if you sent out two rounds of checks and said heres the 1,400 from the democrats that passed on Budget Reconciliation with no republican support or heres a 600 check thats bipartisan, you can only pick one, which would people pick . Yeah. Theyre going to take the larger check. Absolutely. Theres no question about it. And i think on some level we kind of have to turn down the d. C. Noise. Bipartisanship is something that d. C. Insiders quite frankly really covet. Its the subject of any number of peggy noonan columns or eva brooks columns. Im sure theyre working on that right now as we speak, about how joe biden needs to be more bipartisan in his approach to unite the country. But the realitys americans simply do not care. They care about two things getting covid in the Rearview Mirror and getting this economy back moving. That is what they care about. And joe biden simply has to deliver for the american people. If he doesnt, he and democrats will reap the consequences. Yeah. Remember how Stephen Colbert used to joke about the colbert bump . Right. Exactly. Yeah. But that was a real thing. Because colbert would give you a shout out on that much beloved show, this is back when he was doing the colbert report version. And youd get a bump in buzz or book sales or whatever. Im not clear on whether there really is a bipartisan david brooks bump. Even if you do get name checked in his column for watering down your proposal just to add someone, i dont think theres a real bump. I say that as an intro to a little bit of sound of the republicans who are making new noise about all of this. They want biden to join them. Take a look. You dont want bipartisanship. You want the patina of bipartisanship. But you want to stick it and ram it through. So thats not unity. Unity and healing that joe biden and the democrats say we need, thats not what theyre giving us. They are attempting to have total control. Theyre trying to silence opposition. It will set President Biden down a path of partisanship that i think will Poison The Well for other bipartisanship well need on so many other issues. Just briefly, is that credible from those republicans . No. And lets be very honest about this. Right now the gop needs joe biden more than joe biden needs the gop. They desperately need to change the story from donald trump, the impeachment, Marjorie Taylor greene, qanon, and all these crazy sort of stories that were seeing one after another coming up for the last couple weeks. They desperately need joe bidetone help them rebrand the party as a party of fiscal conservatism and a party that reaches out and works in a bipartisan manner, that is not the part yif a crazy ar15 toting congresswoman. All great points and insight. I wonder, chai, if some would quibble with you whether it would be a real fun kind of nice jaunt down memory lane to partner up with donald trump while he claims he won the election . I mean, that would be the only exception to your point. Well, is there any proof that any american during the trump era or during the bush era really cared about their lack of bipartisanship . Bipartisanship like the deficit seems to be discovered every time a democrat takes the white house. I think thats an important point, the last one you especially make, is these are selective spasms that we hear about and the democrats have to figure out what to do with a lot on the todo list about whether they listen to that or not. Chai komanduri, always good to have you, sir. Thank you. Thanks. Coming up, a new crackdown on voting. Weve got our eye on it with a special guest. Michael eric dyson. And later, understandable outcry after police were caught Pepper Spraying a 9yearold girl. And later tonight, if you remember American Psycho and its long list of cultural influence, well, the great Bret Easton Ellis makes his beat debut on that and a whole lot more. Whole lot more. Or this. Or even this. Weve seen and covered it. So, call 1800farmers and get a quote today. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum everyone is at risk for enamel loss. When you drink or eat something thats acidic it sucks the minerals out of the tooths surface. 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Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you, and them. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, remission is possible. Georgias all blue now. Maybe you heard about our election on the news. I hope you know what we do to jewish folks out here in georgia. We elect them i dont know what theyre teaching you over there in florida but this heres georgia. This is Stacey Abrams country. Snl joking about how thoroughly georgia may have turned blue. This was after biden won the state and won nationwide with over 7 million more votes than donald trump. But there are new reports that one initial republican response has been to try to crack down on voting and Voting Access itself, especially in places where joe biden won. New data showing that around this time last year 15 states had introduced about 35 bills restricting Voting Access. Consider that the recent precedent. But the Brennan Center for justice is reporting that figure tripled to 106 bills in this similar period. These measures range from limiting mail Voting Access, something that of course was used more during the pandemic, to more directly controversial crackdowns like very strict voter i. D. Laws, which have been shown to restrict minority voters more. Nbc news now projects that joe biden has won the keystone state, pennsylvania. Designating joe biden the apparent winner in georgia. Breaking news overnight. Nbc news projecting joe biden wins arizona. Biden flips the state that hadnt voted for a democrat since 1996. And as those shifts continue, the trend here is in those same states where biden excelled like arizona you see this crackdown including this proposal to let the legislature potentially overturn who the voters choose and revoke the secretary of states certification by majority at any time before the president ial inauguration. Critics say its quite clear its going on. Having lost in a high turnout election many of these republicans want either a low turnout election, one where they control who votes, or the option to cancel the whole thing. Why . Well, take a look. Democrats have basically been winning the popular vote in seven of the last eight elections. The most recent one continuing the trend. On this and much more we turn to Michael Eric Dyson. Hes a professor at georgetown ifrt. He is the author of Long Time Coming reckoning with race in america. It is the kind of book that is oh, so timely and yet one that builds on the work hes been doing for decades. Were honored to have you back, sir. Its always great to be here, my friend. Always great to tune in to your rhetorically sophisticated engagement with hiphop culture in a postmodern space. Its always beautiful. Amen. The only thing more hip than modern is postmodern. Even though im not always sure what that word means. But im sure youll teach us someday. Lets kick right into what we showed there. Political winds blowing against republicans. There are legitimate debates. We cover them. People get on me sometimes. I had trump aide Boris Epshteyn on recently to hear his Point Of View. On the legitimate part. Whats not legitimate is trying to prevent this from being a democracy in the first place or make rules that make it harder for certain groups or black voters to be heard. Your thoughts about what were seeing in this spike now. Its pretty atrocious. When youve got 106 states 106 bills in 28 states trying to suppress the vote through making it more difficult for mailin votes, you would think the republicans would want to increase that since they lost so horribly. When you talk about the voter i. D. Laws being strengthened and the Registration Processes being made even more difficult. And then finally removing people from the polls. These mass purges. Which of course target with Vicious Particularity africanamerican voters. Which is why Stacey Abrams, a heroic figure to be certain, not only reversed the purging of 500,000 votes in georgia but added another 300,000. Perhaps thats why today it has been leaked that she has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize because of her nonviolent efforts to really retard this vicious trend. Look, the republicans want to make an anagram of vote. They want to veto. They want to veto the right of black peoples access to the franchise. They want to veto democrats access to the franchise. And so instead of doing it the oldfashioned way, hey, we lost, lets work harder, hey we lost, lets deliver a better message, hey we lost, lets not be xenophobic, hey we lost, lets not be racist, hey we lost, lets not be antisemitic and on and on and on. The point is work harder, work smarter, be sharper, be more insightful. Instead of an anagram hand your man a telegram to tell him get on his job. Okay, jay, sorry. But the point is weve got to be acknowledging here that the effort of the gop to undermine the franchise is yet again another symptom of their paltry ability to imagine a future where they have to win fair and square. The capitol, donald trump and now this is all of a piece and we must not miss the way in which theres a fine integration between white supremacist logic, the Ventriloquist Effect of White Supremacy through the mouths of some gop stalwarts, and the inability of the masses of that party to understand this aint your land no more, this aint your party no more, youve got to work for it. It cant be given to you. It cant be handed to you. You have to earn it. Mm. Wow. Its like a sermon, honestly. I appreciate the use of the anagram. These days we spend too much days on the othergram. But the veto is literally what one of those states is trying to do. Theyre putting it out. Its public. We want to be able to reverse what the voters said, which is looking at Donald Trumps insurrection as a Training Exercise and get better at it. I have to fit in a break because we have a couple other stories. Always good to see you, professor dyson. I hope you come back, sir. Look forward to it, my man. And im at Vanderbilt University now. So youve got to come down to nashville and hang out with me. Lets do it. Especially once we get through a little more of this Vaccine Rollout i would love to come to Vanderbilt Keen Hardcore Michael Eric Dyson fans may recall he does actually teach a literal class on jayz. And i got to go speak with him there at georgetown once upon a time. Ill do it again, sir. Look forward to it, my friend. Thank you so very kindly. Shout out to vanderbilt. Coming up, we have a serious story that we want to make sure you know about. It was caught on tape. The Rochester Police Pepper Spraying a 9yearold girl. Accountability watch. Thats next. Accountability watch thats next. 150k. How are you, son . Whos your friend . Oh, um, this is eric. Ooh. The big e. [ chuckles ] great to meet ya. People love my nicknames. Its a whole thing. Thats wonderful, sir. Switch to progressive, and you can save hundreds. You know, like the sign says. Repair your enamel with pronamel repair. Our most advanced formula helps you brush in Vital Minerals to actively repair and strengthen enamel. So you dont just brush to clean, you brush to build. Pronamel intensive enamel repair. Did you know diarrhea is often caused by bad bacteria in food . Try pepto® diarrhea. Its concentrated formula coats and kills bacteria to relieve diarrhea. See, pepto® diarrhea gets to the source, killing the bad bacteria. So, make sure to have pepto® diarrhea on hand. Introducing new Advil Dual Action. The first and only fda approved combination of advil acetaminophen. Advil targets Pain Acetaminophen blocks it. New Advil Dual Action fights pain for up to 8 hours. Theres new Police Body Camera footage that shows officers in rochester, new york pepperspraying a 9yearold girl. Now, police say they were called on a friday because this young girl was threatening to harm herself and her mother. In the video this young girl, who is africanamerican, repeatedly calls for her father as the officers handcuff her while she lies on the ground. You can see in the snow. A warning, the video is disturbing. I want my dad stop stop sit up. No. Youre acting like a child. I am a child the video has been partially redacted by the officers. We dont have full information yet on what led up to the incident. Now, those officers you saw were attempting to put the 9yearold in the back of a Police Cruiser and then one decides to use pepper spray. Dont pepper spray me no. Please no. Stop ive got a bad just spray her at this point. Stop stop here. Stop [ screaming ] i got her. I need to wipe my eyes wipe my eyes according to the Police Videos that we have obtained, at least seven officers and six Police Cruisers are actually seen as part of the response. Thats whats on tape in the video. Now, city Officials Say they are investigating. The mayor is speaking out saying the officers involved have already been suspended although not specifying which ones or offering transparency on that yet. Community leaders are demanding the release of all of the possible available footage including from other officers. This confrontation comes less than a year after a 41yearold black man died when Rochester Police handcuffed him and covered his head with a socalled spit hood under the cover of night, a story we reported on at the time. Community leaders are renewing their calls for more systemic change in how that police force responds, especially to potential Mental Health incidents. We can also tell you tonight that new York Attorney general Letitia James says her office is looking into this and it is deeply disturbing and wholly unacceptable based on what we already know deploying that kind of spray against a child. Her statement as you see there says that should never happen. And one more note. All of this is only known because of this particular police video becoming available. As weve reported, many different departments have resisted making videos and releasing them. How often this kind of Potential Misuse of force happens outside of the Video Surveillance is an open question for police reform. Were growing to fit in a break. We have a lot more on the Program Including joe biden pushing forward on covid relief potentially with or without republicans. And tonight a special conversation with the acclaimed author of American Psycho and many other great works. Bret easton ellis. Its his debut on the beat. Eb. Are you managing your diabetes. Using fingersticks . 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Start stopping with nicorette President Biden is pressing his covid Bill On Republicans tonight as many are still figuring out this new era as their expresident still holds sway. There are larger questions about the endurance of trumpism, how his style and priorities have taken root across the nation in the Republican Party and also in our culture. What shows the endurance of a man who was once seen as a more narrow fringe figure of 80s excess. Someone who for many at the time was a figure to emulate, a symbol of a certain kind of attitude and success even as others were horrified by what he embodies. So after this long year and era we want to turn to that wider discussion with a cultural exclusive that im very excited about, the iconic and bestselling novelist Bret Easton Ellis makes his debut on the beat tonight. A bracing and controversial writer, known for novels like Less Than Zero which probes the culture of rich kids in l. A. And Rules Of Attraction about college lust and rebellion. Ellis is debated in literary circles. But even if you havent picked up his books i bet you know about their film adaptations. He wrote the controversial classic American Psycho. With that memorably haunting performance by christian bale. A banker with Serial Killer tendencies who channeled something ultimately enduring about new york and america and capitalist alienation. Which is especially striking now considering that the celebrity named most in that book, batemans hero, is donald trump. Who lurks as the backdrop to these debates over the best suits and the best business cards. In fact, the antihero is thrilled that even getting near trump, hes excited when he thinks he sees trumps then wife, ivana. We should have gone to dorcia. I could have gotten us a table. Nobody goes there anymore. Is that ivana trump . Geez, patrick. I mean marcus. What are you thinking . Why would ivana be at texarkana . Its been three decades since that book was first published. But elliss vision, his discussion of this subset of america, has actually proven quite prescient. Its about trump and more than that, Foreshadowing A Culture so obsessed with flash and sizzle we may lose sight of what living is all about. I welcome to the beat Bret Easton Ellis. His podcast the Bret Easton Ellis podcast is out on patreon. Thanks for being here, sir. Thanks for having me, ari. When you wrote this, trump was a large figure in the story if not in american politics. What was that about, and what do you think it means that he has gotten only bigger . Well, i didnt expect to put him into the book American Psycho until i was doing research on the book and i was hanging out with a lot of young guys who were working on wall street in 1986, 87, 88. And one of the most surprising things was that they all were in love with donald trump. It was someone they aspired to be. And so i realized that in order to get this period correctly that my narrator, patrick bateman, was probably going to be referencing donald trump a lot. In terms of being an authentic documentation of that period donald trump just had to be a part of that world. And i really dont see myself as particularly prescient. I just sawwallpaper, his name all over the place that could give this book and the story, a jolt of authenticity. The reason the American Psycho connects with a lot of people, its a bit like catcher in a rye, it is a bit of alienanion that people relate to. What do you think of the way were all living in that now . Well, look, at the time, i mean, when i was writing American Psycho, this was the hype of what was yuppie culture. And part of the thing that bothered me about being a young man myself in that environment was that i resented it. I resented the idea they had to live in this society, and yet, there was nowhere else to go. So it dulled my alienation at the moment. And the reason it lasted as long as it is, and the book is still in print, and people watch the movie. They have to identify with patrick bateman. He might present himself as a Serial Killer and he is race ick and homophobic, but there is something about him, that is ultimately the reason why he has he has such staying power. Is something about that. You are trapped in a society you dont believe in, and you have nowhere else to go, and you want to fit in, and as it happens, you go insane. I kept up with your recent writing. You are concerned that america becoming more close or especial. Explain. I think what is missing, we have lost track of metaphor. We only see the surface of things. I dont know if its necessarily just on the left or the right. I try to be nonpartisan about this. Im a writer, an author, and novelist and i dont want to take Political Science on that level. But there is something going on now that is very ideological and it seems to me against aesthetics. So i think the idea now that art has to be created to smooth peoples sensitivities or make them feel better about themselves or something they can relate to or identify with is a real problem. In creation of art or just being an artist and how you want to represent yourself. That does concern me. Is it the wrong question when people ask today, does this artist have the right Point Of View . In other words, i will pick a jewish example. The artist is given more room on a wrong view. Is that an incorrect threshold test for the art we receive . Well, what is the wrong view . What is the right view. There are plenty of jewish people i know that had massive problems with schindlers list, the Steven Spielberg movie. And you think that any art in that period is a terrible thing to reenact and film. I dont think that art should work at that level. Shut all be about aesthetics, and its really what should you respond to. The style of something, how its shot or how its written, and not necessarily automatically respond to it on the ideological or political level. But that is happening now. I just dont believe there are certain things you can say and you cant say. And that is certainly something that is coming from the left unfortunately until the last three or four years. Maybe that will change. Maybe there will be a switch from that. But all the dos and donts, and so on and so forth there are real limitations to an artist, and i am sometimes bauf theed that artists go along with it. Do you want politics to be in control of art because politics makes a lot of mistakes . I only have a minute left. The last thing i have to ask you about. You know what it is . No, i dont. What is it . Its kanye, your kindred spirit. Tell us about the relationship . And will you guys ever make any new project or art together . He has spoken out as a fan of your art . I have worked with kanye on a number of projects that didnt happen. The last chapter is about my relationship with kanye. I dont regret a sinle moment i have spend with kanye. I said, you know, im going to see where the ride takes me and it took me to very interesting places. I love that, and i think you love old kanye, new kanye. Youre not one of the people demanding only a calm ye. I i appreciate you making your beat debut. I hope you come back. I would love to. We will be right back. We will be right back fights pain in two ways. Advil targets pain at the source. While acetaminophen blocks pain signals. The future of pain relief is here. New Advil Dual Action. This is the sound of an asthma attack. That doesnt happen. This is the sound of better breathing. Fasenra is a different kind of asthma medication. Its not a steroid or inhaler. Fasenra is an addon treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. Its one Maintenance Dose every 8 weeks. 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