>> and bill of milenda gates foundation and by contributions of pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. please welcome jaime merisotis, it is great to have you on the program. >> thank you for having me. >> why 60% and why 2025 and is it doable? >> first of all, it is definitely doable and 60% comes to the fact that two-thirds of the jobs created today requires a college education and some of a secondary or a certificate or education. and places like korea and canada, they are at or above 60%. i think we can get there. 2025 because the nature of work changes so fast in the novel of economy and we'll accelerate our progress increasing post secondary team and if we are able to keep up the changing nature of work. today we got a long way to go. >> for the country, you listed a couple of the all mighty u.s. why are they ahead of us? >> they have invested in higher education and that's an important issue for us is that we have challenges in the united states today with affordability, we know that college is expensive and they also have made it a priority, meaning that they invested not zblus college degrees but also other types of learning and people getting trained for specific jobs and pete getting into programs that are competent oriented. we learned a lot from our country and our work and hopefully we can apply that to the challenges of the united states we are facing. >> i don't mean to make it political but let me ask you the question this way, whether to your mind that our commitment comes anywhere near the political rhetoric that we feel of the value of education and the importance of an education. does our commitment come anywhere near the rhetoric? >> for americans, we believe in higher education and post secondary learning so in that sense, i think it does not match our rhetoric, we are a country that believes that talent what i say makes us great and investing in talent is going to make us better. on the other hand in the last several decades the federal commitment to higher education have declined and the perfect in power of telegrant of education has declined. we are seeing more and more challenges and even as the demand for talent is rising. we know that we need more people who have talent to power our economy and strengths in democracy. we know that wages are increasing for people who have a college degree and they're not for everyone else. >> that's what impressing y am u on. in my mind, rhetoric did not match commitment. what's happening where we are saying one thing but we are doing or not doing something else? why does that disconnect exists? >> you wrote the book, americans need talent. what's the cause of the disconnect? >> part of it has to do with the fact of a political level and we lost the benefit of higher education and people go to college and get a post secondary education, they don't make more money, they volunteered more and vote more and participate less in social program and fundamentally, we have lost that argument of policymakers. one of the reasons is that college is becomingless and less affordable for a large number of americans and this issue of affordability is a legitimate question and keep in mind that for the vast majority of americans, the price of college is increasingly becoming out of reach and becoming less affordable than it was say when you and i are in college. >> what is it to be done about the affordability issue? >> well, i think we need to do several things. twoef agree on what affordable is. one of the problem is, affordability is conveying on a question of price. what's the tuition that i am paying? that's saying your car is affordable based on what you pay in terms of this sticker price. that's difference of the discount price that you get after the incentives. those discounts are financial aid and when it come to -- we put our thumbs on the scale of value, we want to make sure people have dpraet opportunities to go to college and we disinvested in that part of the equation and that's part of the challenge that we have. >> one of the reasons that you wrote this book "americans need talent" that you recognize the 21st work force looks and decides differently. what are the primary differences? >> our work force is more diverse so the nation is increasingly diverse. we are a nation of immigrant so immigration combined with the changing demographics of the country particularly for latinos and african-americans, we are a more diverse work force and at the same time this demand for talents is increasing in our economy, we have to have higher levels of skills. the net result is that we have a country that's more diverse and our least educated population are those fastest growing groups of african-americans and latinos in particular. the result is there is this increase of disconnect and where need to invest and how we are making that investment. >> i expect there is a whole lot of folks who heard what you did. the reason why we see a retre h retrenchment on putting our money where our mouth is. you toll us the work force in the 21st century looks different. they are more black and brown. to those that says that's why tl there is a retrenchment. that explains to those who connect those dots. do you accept that or reject it? >> look, i think there is a lot of value in that argument. another thing that changed is the nature of work have changed. so we now have a problem not just for young people being educated to get a good job and to lead a good life for a college education, the vast majority of adults in this country needs the same level of talents of young people do. in the recession what we learn is that those people got knocked out of jobs and those jobs are not coming back. let me tell you one statistic. when the recession ended in 2010 between then and the middle of 2016, there were 11.6 million johns created in the u.s. economy and of those 11.6 million jobs created, 11.5 millions got a college degree. that tells you that people who have a college degree and advantages and those that don't. lets go back to who are the least educated? those are the disadvantage pockets of adults including rural population for who we have increasing challenges. my view is that in order to get to a talented society, we have to change the learning system and we got to deliver learn ng a new way and help people get into and not just college, work base learning and in the industry meaning you have to show what you know and get a credential that way as well aztecnology and online learning and all of that should be of a post secondary learning system if you will, all of that needs to increase if we are creating more opportunities to serve those people better >> when you say students these days, you are not thinking of 18 or 19 years old, i see 30 years old going back to college, how does that complicate theuati situation? >> and so yet the system designs with the idea that you are going to school full-time and your parents are contributing to your education and etcetera when a growing percentage of those learners are adults and they are the first of your family to go to college and they have no one who can help them and they are working themselves. >> they have kids and family. >> yes, a quarter of college students today have their own kids. that tells you a different system today and this system does not serve adults well. we put them into 9:00 to 5:00 classroom experiences and we tell them to take a full course load otherwise they do not complete on time. the system does not have enough flexibility. it is one of the reasons why these flexible learning options like online learning and competency base learning that i mentioned before, the school like southern new hampshire university, you can get your college degree in an online context with the supportive employer and you can complete your college degree in a much shorter period of time because in that show what you know model, you can demonstrate that you have certain knowledge and that means you have to take courses due to learning in other areas. we got to improve the efficiency of the system and get more people through and we got to do so at a lower cost. >> how is this tax plan is impacting education? >> two things that's going to get the attention. that's not important because it applies to only university that are expensive. what's more important is they are taking away the fact that you can deduct the interests on your student loans. today if you get a student loan and then you graduate out in the world to work, you can deduct up to $2,500 in interests per year in your student loans. that affects those adult students that you mentioned earlier. >> finally back to your book, titled "americans need talent," how thas impacting on the source and continuing on the part of the corporation. >> it is a reality. it is one of the reasons why we have to focus both onn talents that we need here and also have a sensible immigration policy that says look, we should use our talent need as part of the immigration strategy and not just the high end but the middle of the equation as el. we should use as part of our strategy to improve talents and use that to enhance to higher education and changing the delivery model and serving people better. those are the kinds of changes that are going to get us to a talented society. >> james merisotis, you says it is doable. his book is calling "americans need talent," it is good to have you on the program. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> coming up next, brandon busteed that a majority of republicans believe that college is harmful to america. we'll talk to brandon in jaust moment, stay with us. according to recent survey in the last two years, republica republican views of college have been tanking. a closer look at the political divide over higher education. brandon, it is good to have you on our program. >> thank you. >> i just got to talk to jaime, their goal is to make sure we as americans have college degrees or more. many majority thinks that college maybe dangerous for america, what's the exact terminology? >> so first of all, research did some great work where they have been asking the question trending around overall our college and more negative and hurtful to the united states or not, and you know so they release that showing it is 50% republicans say overall colleges are hurtful to how things are going in the country completely thanked since 2015. this is some that's happening the last fwo yeatwo years and it a trump-effect necessarily. it goes back to issues and protests on campus and a number of concerns and discussions of free speech and then subsequently controversial speakers on campus so a lot of it has resovolved around that. what's the potential damage to be done to academia. there is a lot going on in and around higher ed that are creating big challenges for us. you can say overall the republicans and democrats split out of that. public perception of higher ed have decline. republican loaning rigs are leao if you take that out, there is growing questions of backdrop of higher education and tuition going up 400% since the 1980s and americans are showing $1.4 trillion student loans debt. there is a mix of stuff going on here. it is not as simple as republican souring, gallop did follow up research, we asked questions of how confident are you in higher education and regards of where you landed, we just said why. we ask an open ended question and it is interesting. more republicans are negative about higher ed than democrats. the democrats who are negative are negative about it for a different reason than why republicans are negative. republicans top reasons for being negative for higher ed is too liberal and don't allow students to think for themselves. that's the whole story. there is more beneath that but those are reasons why republicans are saying it is negative and democrats it is negative. working we are going to address the problem with higher ed and we'll have to address them in different ways if we think about the partisan divide. for those who are positive, republicans and democrats who are positive, they are positive for the same exact reasons. they had a positive experience with higher education and they see higher education as critical to the country in getting a good job. the thing that scares me the most and you said this earlier, what happens to our nation when we start to think there is no value or when we start to think the value of the education is not worth the effort of one has to make to obtain it. that's the part, we start to devalue education. >> these are the real implications. you this i of tnk of economic d post education. we want to give a broader context of people. sometimes we use the word college, people have a p preconceived notion, we now start thinking of the diverse u.s. higher education system that we have of community colleges and colleges that are serving adult learners right now. there is a huge mix of this but you already seen some of the implications of this. you look at university of missouri which is one of the first ones involved in some of the protests and their enrollment is down 30% and they shut down ten dorms in that time frame and you read articles in st. louis and it ends with quotes from parents who's saying i would never send my kids on the berkeley of midwest and we don't think this has a real impact potentially and not for all colleges and certain situation on enrollment and state funding when you think of republican legislatures who are trying to pay attention of what their constituents have asked for and tlas real challenge to this but it goes to a whole bunch of other issues like people say geez, i cannot afford it anymore and i cannot go there and get a practical deal and well, that's a real challenge, too. if i can assume and if you are telling me mizou is decreasing in enrollment and can i assume that some of the christian colleges are seeing a spike in enrollment? >> well, i don't have the data of the perspective research. although i would certainly, you look at institutions that have a large growth of enrollment. their institutions have specifically, they know who they are trying to search. this is true of all cases. people actually know about battist battisti battist -- >> they have a hard time articulating that. >> the data that you gather give you a sense of people are hopeful of the future of education or verses being down at this moment? >> i don't know if we ask a lot of questions to get out at what they are thinking about. this comes after a gallup loophole. higher education must change to adapt to meet the needs of current students. there is 80% saying higher education needs to do something to cater to the modern learner and i think what is built around that is there are more adult workers going back to college in various forms than ever before. if we want to hit that team that luminous foundation is talking about have to come not traditionally impossible. it is going to have to include adult workers and you think of the need of an adult worker going back to college whether it is online or going back to physical campus, that's things that's totally different ballroom, you got kids and a full-time job. there is a lot of higher ed that the u.s. population feels need to change and our research study college graduate and looking at success and working in life, we have identified some key gre ingredients. whether your professor knew you as a person or cared about you as individuals but also including practical stuff where did you have a job or internship or did you work on a long-term project that took more than a semester to complete. less than a third of college graduate strongly agreed to any of those. are there some real things to look at in higher education. yes, there are some structural things that need to be addressed and you look at the lens of what makes successful graduate and those kinds of things. >> yeah, the actual question, what do you think and i know you did not pull tholl this, did yo any sense of political implication is going to be in you start seeing this, there is dpoing to be political cam occasion at some point? >> we have seen pieces of this. the question is will it accelerate or going into a different direction. state funding for higher education, many states have been pulled baa k over the last several years and so in state that is have been more republican in nature, you know, you can track and look at the fact that state funding for college and university and those states are down. is that going to continue and putting pressure on raising tuition and there is a whole bunch of things that go into that. this college thing and probably is not worth it or whatever it maybe. it is too liberal or it is going to brainwash my kids t all kinds of statements that we analyze under the hood of the open ended questions that we have. it is a real question. are we looking at a time frame here of a couple of years where there is been a very fast souring and is there going to be recovery and how republicans feel about higher education. i think if there is a recovery of more colleges and universities developing practical degrees and programs. this is an interesting thing. it is not a mutual exclusive conversation of liberal arts or career or vocational training. we went down these conversations painting it either/or. that's a both and, yet we create distinctions between those. i think you are seeing the american public making that because you ask the question, what'ses t t what's the purpose of college. the top of their list is to get a good job. parents who fit 12th graders and regardless of who you ask the question is the number one of getting a good job. there is a whole bunch of reasons why we value it, to become well rounded and engaged citizens. those are all things that's up there. if you go for one, you cannot have the other, i think that's ludicro ludicrous. >> there you have it. >> tonight an education on education in our country. and thanks to brandon busteed. >> thank you for your effort, that's our show tonight and thank you for watching and as always, keep the faith. ♪ for more information on today's show visit [email protected], hi, i am tavis smiley, join me next time as we take deep dive into what's happening around the country, hi, that's next time, we'll see you then. ♪ and the bill and melinda gates foundation. and contributions to pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. good evening from los angeles, i am tavis smiley, tonight a conversation with leslie odom jr. he gist relowsed a deluxe edition of his "simply christm christmas" album. we are glad you are joining us with leslie odom jr. in just a moment. ♪