and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ please welcome bernadette atuahene to this program. the full scholar professor. she joins on tax of foreclosures. for those who are unfamiliar of how serious this problem is between 2011 and 2015. one and four dough tretroit own subject to property tax foreclosures. many of those foreclosures are unconstitutional. professor atuahene, i am glad to have you on this program. let me jump right in, why unconstitution unconstitutional? >> other state constitutions to the extent they mention property tax assessment at all, saying things like property tax must be fair or equitable or uniformed and up to the courts to determine legality. michigan and five eother state that is have an actual ratio in the state constitutions. that's what we did. we found that between 2009 and 2015, each of those seven years, anywhere between 55% and 85% of property in detroit is a violation of the constitution. not only that, we broke the data up of five point tasks. all the way up to tower five. the lowest value of homes, 95% or more of these homes are being assessed and in violation of the constitution. >> once we get to tower five, the highest is 15% of those being in violation. this burden of unconstitutional property tax assessment is being born by the homeowners with the lowest value homes of the poorest of the homeowners, who cannot afford this. >> why, the big question, how is this allowed to happen? >> that's a great question. so there is a lot of different factors going on. we have to remember, of course, detroit has gone through the largest municipal bankruptcy and american history. it is a state that desperately needed money. that's the first thing that we need to put on the agenda. and when you really think about the "why," you have to think about the fact that a poor city, it is difficult for a city that's absolutely to do these assessment correctly. what it entails is 30%, 20% of your property as you go out to do a field visit and so, the assessment and the general detroit did the report. when you read the report, it is damming. it talks about they were completely and totally under staffed and they did not have the manpower to do the job they were legally required to do. what ended happening is they over assessed everybody and relying on people and challenging their assessment. they actually most of the times did reduce it. guess what? all tempirical works show that poor people are the least likely to challenge their taxes. that's why you had a situation where the lowest valued homes are being unconstitutional assessed and highest value homes are people in power and educated and they had money to hire lawyers and going to protest on their behalf. that's only about 16% or 17% were being assessed of the state's violation. >> i understand the need for money and the budget is tight and detroit of what they went through. i don't understand gauching the poor to make the deficit. >> i am with you. >> the good news about that is -- the situation is completely unacceptable. the other thing is unacceptable and it is a form of disposition. as you open the program, one and four properties is subjected to property tax closures. we have not seen this number of property tax foreclosure in american history since the great depression. and we have to also understand that these are not people being kicked out of their homes. detroit is 70% of african-americans. these are black people being kicked out of their homes at unprecedented rate because of unconstitutional assessment leading to inflatable property tal taxes they could not afford to pay. >> we all know what this end up. >> when you lose your house, a bunch of folks buying um property. at the moment, detroit is on the rebound and starts to come back. all these black folks coming home are being kicked out of the house. >> it is displacement. it is illegal of african-american men. >> let me ask you if it is unjust or illegal or apart of a center, i am not a conspiracy theory but i can pick the mix. is it just displacement. is it just displacement or something malign going on. >> my answer to this question is careful answers. i am a law professor and i do i am empirical work. >> so it is a story of intuit n intuitionaand in capacity. that's not to say this idea of a grand plan, that's absolutely and maybe happening. i just don't have the evidence to prove that. my story, you know and my role as a professor is to tell the story that i have evidence to prove and again because of the detroit auditor's report or detroit itself, they are evidence and this is coming from them to support they did not have. i am with you and i understand you're being careful about your answer and i am not a professor so i got to be as careful. >> i am just a talk show host. [ laughter ] >> i can be a little more and swing a little wild and broadly. >> we did a week of shows on this program as you may know from detroit and we talked about a lot of these issues for five nights. we are the only national show that went to detroit during the crisis and did five consecutive shows in detroit. >> which was amazing. >> it was amazing because i learned so much. >> the point is it would not surprise me to learn that this is part of a sinister master plan to get folks out of their houses and to buy property when one considers there is a plan basically to do that in downtown. everybody knows there is one guy. one wealthy guy who owns most of detroit. everybody knows who he is. >> he owns the basketball team. >> everybody knows who he is. i ain't going to call his name. >> there is one guy that knows everything about downtown detroit. >> he has his own security syste system, patrolling all of detroit. they have cameras all around downtown detroit. when detroit pd needs to get something off of the security camera, the police departme department -- this what i know from being in detroit myself, if that sort of activity is going on in downtown, it would not surprise me to learn that again, smag foot here to get people out of their homes. it does raise questions which is even if it happens because the auditor's office did not have the personnel to do what needed to be done. that did not stop those empowering now and fixing the problem, what's happening on that front? >> what you see in detroit is you see a downtown that's getting tax up cities and tax breaks for large developments. you see neighborhoods where people of color lives. they are unconstitutional assessed. and so one part of time, you have tax breaks and cities. another part of town, you have people being illegally taxes. that's an important story, call it the tale of two cities. there is a prominent narrative of detroit coming back. that's a small part of detroit coming back. the tale of two cities that's part of the larger narrative. that's the first thing with it downtown verses others. the other thing that i want to make sure we bring to the forest is this whole injustice, the key and the next key understanding is most detroiters, 40% of detroiters living under the federal property line. you qualify something called the poverty tax exemptions. there are unnecessarily barriers putting in ways of people fining policy tax exemptions and it was not on the website and was not publicized. the whole situation is because you had unconstitutional unconstitutional -- leading to property taxes that people cannot afford to pay. they get kinged out cked out of homes for property taxes that they were not supposed the pay for in the first place. when you talk about the tales of two cities. this story juxtaposeed of it. it is painful. >> i have to let you go here, who do they go to or turn to? >> we have started something called the coalition to unconstitutional tax closures and we have three demands. if you are interested in knowing more. you can go to our website. >> number one, to stop these assessments and our second demand is some form of recreations because we cannot have a situation where people are unconstitutional assessed or kicking out of the home and that's just the end of the story. the third is stopping the i am pending foreclosure. we had a foreclosure that last week, that was a particularly sad story. what happened there is the wing county treasure had money from the mcgregor family's foundation, giving to put people on family's plan. $200,000, the wayne county treasure says no. he would not take the money and those houses went to auction. if this type of leadership, it is this type of leadership that happens that says, again, this would have caused them nothing and $200,000 from a foundation. >> why do you say no? >> what was his reason. his reason is they missed the deadline. >> it is completely absurd. it is the deadlines that he m missed time and time again. >> thank you bernadette atuahene. >> those f yof you watching the game, imagine what's going onto detroit losing their homes. up next is richard jenkins. stay with us. richard jenkins is a talented actor. the most recently is "lbj" is currently in theaters. a contender across the board. our conversation here, a scene here from "the shape of water." >> all that i am and all that i have ever been brought me here to him. you see you are saying it is a him now. >> just hit me. let go of me. >> i am looking, i am looki looking -- when he looks at me and the way he looks at me -- he does not know how i am incomplete. he sees me for what i am as i am. >> how challenging as an actor and how difficult is it to play off of someone and jumping ahead the story, mplaying alongside where you are doeng all the tin talking. you are playing someone who are not saying anything. >> well, i am an actor, i get more lines. >> it is hard. the convention to have somebody signs and you can understand it and you can repeat it. the director. >> yes, he said, repeat what i say and i said i understand what you are saying. she says no, i want you to know that you understand everything that i say when i tell you this. so it is a great way into that convention. >> i hear you. >> i will talk more about the character and while you are at ate, tell me more of the story broadly. >> oh my gosh, it is a hard thing to describe. >> i signed the contract. the money was not great. it is about a young woman who's mute who works in a government facility and she's the help cleaner with her best friend, octavius spencer and i am her next door neighbor, elderly man who's gay who's an artist -- in this government agency, the secret lab. >> it takes place in 1962. they bring in this -- they call it in an asset. it is a picture they found in the amazon. it is kind of like a human. it can breathe in and out of water. they want to figure out if there is any use for this in the space world and going into the moon. she meets this creature and they form a relationship. >> it is an under water fantasy. >> it is in some way. >> at this point in your career, how are you making your choices and decisions about what you want to play. you know, i look for - i look for real human beings, when i read the script, i like to see a character that has his own life and lives his life and not just there to serve the story. even though he is but and guerillmo wrote this guy. i understand and i was the only child growing up. i love the art and the changes that it goes through. the truth as you look at it and you go, this may hurt or not. i can bring something to this or not and there is other guys that's better than me on this. >> i am curious -- how did you know that since you had to play off of, you are talking to yourself. >> i still do. my wife says, who are you talking to. >> you are growing up the only child, how did you know that being a thespian was your calling. >> i did not see any theaters. i used to go to my father who was the only child also, i said dad, i am bored and he said go watch the ants so i would go outside and lie down like this and i would watch the ants for hours. >> yeah. >> what did you see? >> i saw a community. >> yeah. >> i saw help and i saw ants dragging huge objects and sometimes other ants and grass hoppers and inflicted the ant hill a little bit and they rebuilt it. >> i get up and i crush it. [ laughter ] >> i ask that question because i figured there maybe and there was a real answer to that question because i am always amazed at the way we find our ways into certain things if we paid attention and just here you say, it sounds funny but i bet he learns something. >> i did. i love to be consumed with things. with that, i would watch it for hours. >> squjennifer jason lee was he. and lbj. >> i did love russell so much. you take my point, russell was. tell me about your turn in the "lbg project ". i have known rob for a long time. i like the idea of seeing two of the most point of lwerful men i world, see how they talk when there is nobody around. how and what they say and what they mean? >> you really see it naked and raw that way. i love that. >> that's why i decided to do it. was there anything about the politics or the process of doing that film? >> in the '60s that made you feel like you were in the moment of the parallels. the politics. yeah. >> the parallels and if you thought on that set. >> yeah. >> some things. don't change. >> and i think it is important to see characters like this. >> i think richard russell was probably a good man. >> after the desegregation became illegal, they wrote the manifesto. segregating the schools disrupp the great relationship. this is the world he lived in and believed. we still have that. >> when you have a character who at first glance is more evil than good. how do you as an actor get to the humanity of that character. >> maybe i said he's a good man and i played it. >> if i knew him -- if you play somebody and you think of him as evil. >> yeah, yeah. >> nobody really thinks of he himself that way. senator russell believes that segregation was best for everybody. >> right. >> so you know you have to fall in love with the character. >> i think you are right about that. even when you are playing someone as evil as hitler. >> he's doing great. >> that's my point. >> at some point you got to try to find the way into humanity and part of the character that's good because it gives you something to work with. it does not become a character. it becomes a person, you know? >> and let and if you do that then what they say in the way and the way they say it has really an impact. that's what i wanted to do with this guy. i did not want to make him tour his mush statache. the man that has done good things in his life. >> i thought it is interesting. >> lets go back to the sea. >> so much has been written and so much has been said because he has been on an absolute role. what's it like to work with him. >> this guy is highly regarded now and he will be talked about years to come as a great film maker. >> well, first of all, he's hilarious. he's the sweetest and down to earth, most gifted dude that i work with for a long, long time. the fact that this time in my life, he asked me to be apart of it. it was a gift. i used to think about things and won wonder if he thought about it. >> he's thought about everything. usually, he would not have an opinion. >> it is great hanging out with him. >> but, this movie is like an old to cinema. it is like stepping back into studio in 1945 and the way he shot it. it is his love letter to the great films of that time. yet, it is totally his and new and it is alive and i don't know how he did it. when i saw it. it blew me away and i thought i knew what i was going to see. >> you were in it. >> i was in it. [ laughter ] >> that scares me now. >> it is called "shape of water," starting richard jenkins. >> congratulations, it is good to see you again. >> it is nice to be back. >> that's our show, my friends, thank you for watching, as always, keep the faith. ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavissmile tavissmiley @pbs.org. >> hi, i am tavis smiley, join us next time for shepard fairey. that's next time, we'll see you then. and and by contributions from your pbs station from viewers i clik you, thank you. - today on america's test kitchen: bridget prepares the ultimate thick-crust sicilian-style pizza. becky shows us how to make homemade ricotta cheese. and julia makes pasta with cauliflower, bacon, and breadcrumbs. america's test kitchen is brought to you by dcs. dcs: manufacturers of professionally styled indoor and outdoor kitchen equipment.

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