♪ ♪ and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ ♪ jonathan eig is one of my favorite writers etch he's a "new york times" best-selling author. his latest is a biography called "ali: a life." ali is the only guy who could put his face on the cover of a book, and you ain't got to say nothing else. >> i know. >> the photo -- the cover literally has a photo of the guy, only ali. here's a clip from a 1971 conversation with journalist and talk show host michael parkinson. >> what did you think about the other black athletes like them who in their time have had influence or would have been in a position to have influenced people, their own people and sort of thing about their attitude which is certainly slightly less moderate than yours? slightly more moderate than yours? >> they go down in history just as athletes. i'm -- i'm given more praise and credit for what i'm doing now, coming here and beating the 5-year-old english champion. right now black people, when you show them home jumping, home shouting because they don't have the nerve to say what i'm saying and nobody's never said it, and they're happy to see a black man who will stand up and jeopardize everything he's got to tell the truth. like floyd patterson and other fighters, they don't make a part. they get a rolls royce, a nice home, a white wife. i made it, america's great. the rest of them catching hell, and he won't say nothing. when one man of popularity can let the world know the problem, he might lose a few dollars himself telling the truth, might lose his life. he's helping millions. if i kept my mouth shut just because i can make millions and this ain't doing nothing. i love the freedom and the flesh and blood of my people more so than i do the money. >> and that is why i love muhammad ali. >> that's it. >> that's him. before i go any further into the text, i have my own thoughts about this. we've been talking about it now for days. but i'm curious to get your take, jonathan, on the juxtaposition of what you saw ali say and do in his lifetime with what we're seeing black athletes say and do in the era of trump, given what happened days ago. >> well, you just heard him say, "i want to be more than just an athlete. i want to be able to speak my mind and say what i feel, and i'm willing to give up the riches if that's what it takes." being right and being outspoken and being free is more important than all that. for donald trump or anybody else to say that these athletes, that any american isn't free to speak his mind is un-american. and ali was brave enough to say that when athletes weren't saying it. black people were not supposed to say that stuff, especially in eight 50s and '-- in the '50s and '60s. he said, you're telling me i can't speak my mind? no way. >> i wondered when this went down days ago, i wondered when i read your book what ali would be saying in this moment if he had his voice and saw what donald trump is saying and doing, what he might be saying. >> i think we know because he said it. he said we all have a right to speak up. we have a responsibility to speak up. and nobody's going to tell him to shut up. nobody's ever going to tell muhammad ali to shut up. >> first of all, i want to take my hat off to you and salute you. first of all, you see this -- this is a text, you spent time on this. i think it will be for years to come the definitive biography of muhammad ali, my words. having gone through the text. having said that, i was fascinated to get through it to see what new information you had gleaned because in some ways ali's been in our face for so long. we tend to think with people like him or dr. king that we know everything, and we really don't. there are two or three things that jumped out at me that i thought was information that i had not heard or seen before. and i want to go through some of that. >> sure. >> one is that in the days since his passing, the months since his passing, some fbi files have been released. and you went through those. what did you find out that we didn't know about folk in his camp? >> some of the guys in ali's camp, people he trust like angelo dundee and dundee's brother, chris, were serving as informants for the fbi. >> say it ain't so. say it ain't so. not angelo dundee. >> yeah, angelo dundee. ali was hanging around with malcolm x., other members of the nation of islam. they wanted to know what he was doing, who he was talking to. ali didn't hide it well. if you followed him, you would have seen. dundee and others informed on the fbi on who was coming around. >> that shocked me but didn't surprise me in the sense that the same thing happened, of course, to dr. king. and as the fbi files have come out since his passing, since his assassination now almost 50 years ago, we've learned more about his inner circle. did that blow you away when you discovered that? >> no, it didn't really because we've seen it before. there's a sense of responsibility. the government comes calling, and they need your help. and you respond. and at the time, the nation of islam was seen as a terrorist group. they were seen as a threat to america. for the fbi to say we need to know who these people are, it's for muhammad ali's protection, cash us clay at that point, i can see why somebody like angelo dundee would go for that. it's sad, but look at it from his perspective in the 1960s. >> right. do you think that dundee saw, to your point, as helping his country and protecting ali, or do you think that dundee was a sellout? >> i think he saw it as protecting his country. he saw when the fbi comes, your first instinct is to help, it's your government. he didn't have the perspective to think about -- maybe he thought that it wasn't -- he wasn't selling out ali because it was a paternalistic attitude and thought it was for ali's own good. >> the other thing but that i found fascinating, and it was something i never thought but i'm glad that you had the wisdom to actually do the research to point this out for us. everybody knows that ali was suffering from parkinson's near the end of his life. you use the technology to go back and count the number of punches that ali took in his career. what is that number? >> we counted the number of punches in his fights, professional fights. we extrapolate it from that to look at how many rounds of sparring he did, how many exhibition, how many fights as an amateur, and he was hit probably 200,000 times. >> 200,000 punches in his career. >> yeah. and he would tell his sparring partners to hit him in the head. he would concentrate on that. he thought if you got hit in the head enough that it would build up resistance. like building up calluses, that he wouldn't be knocked out if he could get used to getting hit in the head. that was a tragic decision on his part. >> what did you learn about the parkinson's and diagnosis and what we learned about it? >> he was diagnosed a few years after his retirement. people like the ring doctor started saying that he saw signs of trouble as early as the 1970s. the early 1970s after the first joe frazer fight. and ali's parents started to say you don't sound like, you're mumbling, why are you walking like that? you're shuffling. speak up. anecdotally, you see signs that he's starting to suffer damage from all the blows. i worked with some scientists at arizona state to study his speech. over the course of the 1970s, he lost 26% of his speaking rate. his voice started to slow dourn -- slow down -- >> the '70s? >> yeah, for ten years shows signs of damage. he keeps doing it. even ali recognizes it. he says to reporter, do you think i've got brain damage? do i sound wrong? do i sound like i'm slurring my words? he's aware and still fighting. >> yeah. were you able to glean -- let me back up and ask, i talked about the density of the text. talk about your process for writing this. the people you talked to, the interviews you did. give me a sense of the research. and i ask that because it's a matter of time before you see on pbs a ken burns treatment of this, jonathan and ken burns who recently did this powerful and brilliantly done vietnam work. there's a four part -- >> not sure, three our four -- >> three our four parts. a multiple-night project ken burns is doing with jonathan based on this text. we'll want ton weather we see this -- we want to know when we see this down the road, what you went through writing this. >> 4.5 years of work, more than 600 interviews, more than 200 people. i had access to everybody i could have hoped for. ali's family, his closest friends, managers. don king, larry holmes, george foreman, ali's ex-wives were open and helpful. they wanted to make sure that ali's story was told right, fairly. it's been told many times over the years by journalists, but nobody had stepped back and done the big-picture book. i had a lot of help. >> as a writer, that's gold. how did you feel when you had -- when you received that kind of access from the persons closest to him? that's -- it's gold but a lot of pressure to get the story right. >> it's a big responsibility. i feel a responsibility to ali who i met briefly before he passed away. i said, listen, i'm doing this book about you, and it's scary. you had, you know, life like few others, like no other in the 20th century. it's -- it's a frightening responsibility to have that life in my hands, that i'm going to tell your story. i said, is there anything you want to tell me? anything you want to make sure i get in and get it right? he couldn't speak at that point. he didn't answer me. i felt like i owed it to him to do my best, to be honest, and not pulling any punches. i don't want to make him out to be a saint. i want to tell the truth. and i think people will appreciate that more. they'll understand the real ali. >> yeah. every person who writes about somebody who is not -- none of -- none of us are saints to begin. with i wrote a book about dr. king. i made it clear he was a public servant, he wasn't a public servant. it can be hard to write those passages, but you got to get the truth out. when you see them in the complexity, in all of their humaniti, it makes for a more honest rendering of who they are. that said, what were the tough parts as a fan of ali to write about? >> there were a lot of tough parts. he wasn't good to his wives. he wasn't always a good father. and he was be fudling sometimes, even on the things that you were proudest of him for. for example, he takes the stand against vietnam. no viet cong ever called me -- i'm not going to fight some country when people in my own country don't treat me right. a few years later, people asked do you have regrets? he said, i wish i hadn't said that thing about the viet cong. what are you talking about? that was the most profound thing you said. what it revealed was -- he followed up and said, well, why did you regret that? he said, i didn't want to make so many people mad. what that told me was he wanted to be loved more than he wanted to be respected and admired. and at the same time, he felt this absolute need to be -- to be honest and to be free and to fight for what he believed in. these things were conflicting within him. >> as i read that passage -- i'm glad you said that example. when i read that passage, jonathan, i didn't -- all due respect -- i didn't find it befudding because of the point that you got to. ali was such a humanist. he never wanted to hurt anybody's feelings. even he was -- he was teasing joe frazier, teasing george foreman, as his life went on, my read was that he started to feel some sort of way when people confronted him about the way he demeaned people, even though he saw it mostly as joking and teasing and selling a fight. there was this part of him, particular iii end of his life -- and you write about that brilliantly -- how once he could no longer talk, he went into overdrive to try to do every single thing he could every hour of the day, as he said to me, to earn his way into the kingdom. >> that's right. >> tell me more about -- about this just overwhelming desire he had to just be good to everybody, to be kind to everybody, and to not ever say a word that would make people feel horribly. >> yeah -- >> including the viet cong apparently. >> right. even when he said white people were the blue-eyed devil, he said it with a twinkle in his eye. you couldn't hate him. he would go on johnny carson and talk to jerry lewis and make jokes. at the same time, he's saying all white people were going to die. how he pulled it this off, this amazing balancing act, is crazy. and i think it's part of the reason why he had problem with women. his wife said, he didn't like sex that much. he just liked to please people, make them happy. he felt the more he could give of himself the happier the world would be. that was ali. >> yeah. what did you learn about him as a fighter? we talked about the number of punches that he took. obviously you can't talk about him as a man without talking about his role that he played as the greatest of all time in the ring. what did you learn about his fighting days? >> the courage he showed outside the ring was a key part of his abilities inside the ring. he was -- he was young, when he was young he was so fast and strong that he overwhelmed people. he couldn't be touched. but after his layoff when he was exiled for 3.5 years, he came back, and he was slower. his jab wasn't as effective. he started taking punches. he discovered he could take a punch. that nobody could put him on the mat. frazier knocked him known, nobody knocked him out. he developed strategies to win. it required him taking a lot of punishment over the years. he was a smart fighter. he did his homework, he knew what it took to beat the better fighters. when he beat sonny listen, he knew how to study him and match his talents against listen's. nobody outsmarted him in the ring. >> did you learn anything new or thrilling about the major fights? every ali fight can be a major fight. there were big ones -- the rumble in the jungle, thrilla in manila, the frazier fight at the garden. did you learn anything that piqued your interest about the big, big fights? >> it rumble in the jungle was my favorite. i think that fight cements ali's legacy. i wish he'd retired after that one. george foreman said to me, i was drugged before the fight. my manager drugged me. i said, george, i read that 20 years ago. you still believe it? he said, i know it. i was drugged before the fight. then he said, and my manager asked me for $25,000 cash to bribe the referee to find out it was a fair fight. i found out later the ali camp gave them more than $25,000. i called ali's manager and said, is it true that you gave him more than $25,000? you bribed the referee? his manager said, no, are you kidding? that's crazy. we only gave him $10,000. >> were they joking or serious -- >> no, they were serious. they were serious. >> and yet the fight came down to what happened in the ring. >> yeah. yeah. ali wore him out. >> i love george foreman. if george were drugged, there's just no way -- he gave ali -- he gave him a beating -- >> for the first round. >> the first part of the fight. >> yeah. >> he was only -- ali let him wear himself out. >> if george was drugged, he was even stronger. >> that's what i think. exactly. he was slapping ali around a little bit earlier in the fight -- >> a strong man. >> yeah, yeah. you mentioned that you think he should have retired after that fight. i think others would agree, he should have retired then. he comes about in '80 or '81. you write that his family and those close to him begged him not to do that. why was he so determined when everybody around him said, champ, don't do it? >> a lot of it was money. >> yeah. >> as so often happens. you know, he had three ex-wives, he had a lot of kids to support, and he had this entourage making money off of his. boxing wasn't the -- money off of him. boxing wasn't the same. he loved the idea of being the first four-time champion. he thought he could beat larry holmes. he had no chance. he wasn't in good health. he'd been -- been to the mayo clinic and been examined. these tests suggested that something was wrong with him. he was having trouble just doing basic coordination. they let him in the ring. and never should have happened. >> yeah. what did you learn about the people more -- we talked about angelo dundee earlier. what did you learn about the people around him? ali is strong, he's determined. we see him on clips. he seems in control. to your pointed, everybody has an entourage around him. did ali run the entourage, or did the entourage run him? >> he was a terrible ceo. he did not know how to run his own business. he didn't care about money. people would take whatever they wanted. he didn't care. people would rip him off, and he would say, he must have needed it more than me. there was a great story angelo dundee told. this guy comes into ali's camp, he's in a wheelchair, amputated, both legs. he's wearing a dodgers cap. he said, be careful, that guy is going to tell you he's roy campanella, he's a con man. don't give him money. next thing you know, ali's handing money to this guy who says he's campanella. and angelo comes up and says, ali, what did you do that for? i told you he was a con man. he said, "ang, we got legs." >> that sounds like ali. >> yeah. >> i happen to know very well and -- and considered him a friend. ali was a friend, as well. but howard bingham was my man. and he and ali were friends to the end. what did you learn about beyond being his friend and world-famous photographer? who were ali's real friends? again, when you get to this level, you've got a lot of people hanging on. who were his real -- did he have real, true, ride-or-die friends beyond bingham? >> i think he had a lot. i think he was genuine. he met people and would take them off the street. he would meet somebody in a bar or restaurant and say, come to my house for dinner. they would become lifelong friends. the managers, people like gene kilroy, larry cole, people you never heard about, they were with him every step of the way on these journeys. he loved them. and really cared for them and wrote them letters for when he was overseas. these beautiful letters that these guys showed me. they were so passionate. he valued their friendship. he would write them. i'm in afghanistan, and it's scary. and it makes me think about you and the friendship we've had over the years. just wanted to let you know i'm thinking of you. who writes letters like that? ali took his time to do that. i think he really loved these people. >> yeah. much of course has been made and always will be of ali lighting the torch in atlanta. tell me about that. >> people forget now that in the late '80s, early '90s, ali was kind of lost. he was depressed. he didn't have enough to do. he didn't like the way he looked on tv because his hands shook and his voice was soft. and you could hire ali to sit at a trade show desk, you know, for $2,000. he'd spend all day there signing autographs. he was happy just to be among people, but it was sad. a lot of his friends and wife were worried about him. then the olympic torch moment comes. if you remember it, 60s, nobody knows who -- in 1996, nobody knows who's going to light the torch. ali steps out from behind this -- this partition just all in white, the track suit, and his arm is shaking. and the crowd doesn't roar. the crowd gasps because they haven't seen ali in so long. it's like a rediscovery. we put our arms around him. this guy who was so divisive, so hated for so long. now we see him as a human, a man who's suffering. and we just want to hug him. it's this -- this reawakening really. the moment i think that ali's image changes profoundly. >> i agree with you. it is the moment that his image changes, his image changes profoundly, to quote you. yet, i've never been comfortable with that personally. i've never been comfortable with it because it's as if once he's tamed and defamed and manicured and deodorized and cannot offend any of us, now we all love the guy. >> yeah. >> it's almost -- i felt the same about mandela. >> yeah. >> when mandela died, everybody at the funeral, all these heads of state and everybody, what a great president, what a great man he was, this, that, and the other. nobody wanted to go back to the anc years. they wanted to reflect on his time as president. he came out of prison. you can't -- you can't tame people that way. and the story who've they are is a full and complete story which you cover in this text. so i was never comfortable -- i was happy to see people love on ali. >> right. >> it's like you love him now because he's shaking and can't talk. >> i agree. it's safe -- and you know, stanley crouch has a great line, he says ali in the '60s was a grizzly bear, wild, uncontrollable. in the '70s, like a circus bear. still dangerous but entertaining. after the olympic torch, he becomes a ted bear. we want to hug -- a teddy bear. we want to hug him. >> stanley can turn a phrase. beautifully put. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> you mention ali and -- as not being a good ceo. did you get a chance to calculate how much money you think ali made in his lifetime? >> yeah. he estimated that it was i think $40 million, $50 million. that was when he was still fighting, toward the end of his career. he had none at that point. he had blown through all of it. he didn't -- didn't pay attention. he had bad advisers who ripped him off. he always felt like there would be more. it wasn't his nature to obsess about it. he liked spending it. he liked having nice cars. he didn't care and didn't think about long term. >> don king has been accused more than once of ripping off a whole lot of fighters. what about the king/ali relationship? >> you know, i said to don, i said, how come nobody ever killed you? how did you get away with it? >> how did -- i want to know how don responded to that question. why did nobody -- >> he laughed. >> yeah. >> he gave you a good answer. he said it was because he went to elijah muhammad early on and said, i want your blessings to work with ali. these white people are making all the money off of him. i don't -- i need to get involved and do my business. some black people need to be involved in ali's management. you know, he did some unkind things. he ripped ali off. he ripped -- he would argue that he made more money for ali than he ever could have ripped off the genius of staging these bouts in zaire and manila, that he made great fortunes for everyone involved. >> when we say of ali at one point that he was the most famous man on the planet, is that true or hyperbole on our sinatra. >> i think it's true. -- on our part? >> i think it's true. before the internet, he was the only guy you could see live around the world. used to talk about it, 17 billion people watching me. if you put them all in one place, that would stretch out over the course of three countries. he would go crazy. he loved thinking about how all these people were watching him at the same time. i think it's true. he was the most recognizable face in the world. >> yeah. what is to your mind after having done this book, his -- his abiding legacy? >> i think ali's legacy is that we have a responsibility to speak up to power, that we have a responsibility to be free and to fight for freedom. and he used boxing as a way to grab that power and to speak up for himself and to speak up for his people. >> yeah. you think years from now they'll still be talking about ali? i ask that because sometimes you have heroes who pass away. and it's like when they pass away, we just -- we forget about them. they disappear. and they end up being on some tv show called "unsung" 25 or 30 years from now. is ali's legacy going to be enduring? >> i think we'll be talking about ali for hundreds of years. if you went to his funeral, you saw -- have you ever seen anything like that? people from around the world came to stand on the street and watch his hearse go by. there's a power that shocked me even though i had spent four years researching the man's life and talking to everybody. to see that kind of outpouring from people who drove from detroit, from albany, from south carolina, just to be there to watch the hearse go by. this man left a mark on the world. >> yeah. i think you're right -- years from now we'll be talking about ali legitimately so. the book is called "ali: a life" by jonathan eig. i think you will be empowered by it and entertained by it as well as i was. thanks for being on the program, my friend. >> thanks, tavis. >> that's our program for tonight. as always, keep the faith. ♪ ♪ >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with actor willem dafoe about his film "the florida project." that's next time. we'll see you then. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ >> be more. pbs. ♪ -today on "america's test kitchen"... bridget shows julia the secrets to a spectacular cheese and tomato lasagna, jack challenges julia to a tasting of jarred anchovies, and keith makes bridget unforgettable garlic bread. it's all coming up right here on "america's test kitchen." 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