Announcer this is Washington Week. Corporate funding is provided by [music] for 25 years, Consumer Cellular has been offering no contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. Our u. S. Based Customer Service team can help find a plan that fits you. To learn more, visit consumercellular. Tv. [music] announcer additional funding is provided by the estate of arnold adams and koo and Patricia Yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Once again, from washington, moderator robert costa. Robert good evening. And welcome to Washington Week. President elect joe biden and Vice President elect Kamala Harris continue to face mounting challenges tonight with President Trump refusing to concede and blocking them from both transition funds and highlevel intelligence briefings. Now while some republicans are expressing unease, most of them are standing by as the president makes baseless claims of election fraud. And on friday afternoon, President Trump touted vaccine developments. But he did not concede and vaguely references, quote, whatever administration comes next. President trump this administration will not be going to a lockdown. Hopefully the whatever happens in the future, who knows which administration it will be, i guess time will tell, but i can tell you this administration will not go to a lockdown. Robert as americans wait for the f. D. A. To make a final decision, the pandemic keeps spreading at an alarming rate with more than 160,000 new cases on thursday alone. Hospitals are at a breaking point with thanksgiving just weeks away. Joining me tonight to discuss these stories are three trusted reporters. Evan osnos, staff writer for the new yorker and author of joe biden, the life, the run, and what matters now. Ashley parker, White House Reporter for the washington post. And rachel scott, White House Correspondent for abc news who joins u from delaware. Lets first turn to biden and harris. They are taking calls from World Leaders. And this week, named ron klain as the Incoming White House chief of staff. Rachel, whats next up there in delaware . Whats the plan for dealing with this defiant president . Rachel yeah. We know the biden bidens team is having those critical conversations about who will fill his cabinet. Who will be part of his administration. But the reality is here is that as they ar preparing these teams, their own Coronavirus Task force team, as theyre putting together these Agency Review teams, they can only get so far. At some point, they are going to need some cooperation from the Current Administration. They do not have access to their counterparts at these federal agencies and departments. They do not have access to these briefs. And that is something that we are even hearing a growing number of republicans now come out and say that Vice President joe biden, now the president elect, deserves to have National Security briefings and get that intelligence at this point. And even the President Trumps former chief of staff jon kelley saying tonight that this is about the country. This is not partisan. This is not a partisan game. President trump doesnt have to necessarily concede for joe pieden to get that information bide ton get that information. Robert evan, your book cludes the subphrase what matters now. So what matters now . Evan well, as richel was saying, we are at a crucial moment for this country. Not just on the domestic side but also on National Security and foreign affairs. Ifou go back and you look at the bipartisan 911 commission, one of the recommendations in there was to actually accelerate the process of getting National Security aides approved with their background checks and getting them access to crucial intelligence becse its in this period when the United States is acutely vulnerable. And instead what were seeing is a white house, an Outgoing White House that is taking steps to delay the process, to extend this fragile handover, and i think what matters now from the biden from the president elects perspective is to convey and thiis important a sense of inevitability. I mean, lets be clear about whats going on. There is not an actual dispute over the votes. There is not an actual dispute over the law. There is a state of political, call it what it is, confusion in the mind. Outgoing president. And the president elect is going to maintain the clear sense that hes not deterred by it. Robert ashley, rachel mentioned that former white house chief of staff john kelly did tell politico on friday that, quote, you lose a lot in the transition if things are delayed. And it threatens National Security. As evan just mentioned, do President Trumps close advisors recognize the risk and are they communicating that message to him . Ashley well, that is sort of the rub. When you talk to not just the president s advisors but even republicans on capitol hill who should know better and in fact in many cases privately do know better, their attitude is sort of as one put it to me, what is the harm in humanoring the president , to help him get to sort of that emotional space where even if he doesnt officially concede and even if hes not gracious, as we have come to historically expect, he gets to a place where he can leave office. And what is unsaid there and the harm is exactly that. It is the transition of power both in terms of the president the current president is eroding trust in this election, in democratic norms generally, and of course the National Security implications as evan mentioned, this sort of more robust transition came out of the wake of 911. And we cant predict a sort of worst Case Scenario what terrorist attack we cant conceive yet. But one thing we can conceive of right now is the coronavirus. That ia tremendous National Security threat. And one of the things we know is going to be a challenge at the very least is this handoff from donald trump who is not really been managing this virus at all. He hasnt attended a Task Force Meeting in months weve been told to joe biden and managing that Vaccine Distribution. And that is one thing a National Security issue of Public Health issue that is very much falling by the wayside. And in my reporting this is not one of the key things that trump world allies are raising to the president. Robert rachel, bouncing off of that point by ashley, what is the bidenharris plan on the virus . Are they talking about the need for another lockdown as the president suggested earlier today . Rachel no, actually, theyre not. And it was interesting hearing the president put so much emphasis on there not being another not being a National Lockdown. And we had vivek murthy on our programming on gerkgerk and he does not Good Morning America he does not feel there is a need for a National Lockdown at this point. But what he did emphasize is testing. And one area where he feels the United States and his Current Administration have lacked. And that they would like to make up the gaps there and getting rapid and quick testing to communities that really need it. Communities that are disproportionately affected. It was also interesting hearing the president talk about the rollout of a vaccine. He said that would come likely by april. At that point, joe biden will be the nextresident of the United States. But right now, they dont have access to a Vaccine Distribution plan because of this holdup with the transition. President trump blocking this transition process and blocking that critical information from the next president of the United States. Robert evan, youve written extensively on china. Won a National Book award. And china has congratulated president man elect biden and viceresidentelect harris. Whats the import of that and other World Leaders moving on, even when the president does not . Evan we saw this really interesting process play out over the course of the week where in foreign capitals around the world, you could practically hear the analysts sort of trying looking at one another and saying what do we do now . Weve never had a situation in which an american president has not dignified the result of a legitimate election. It took them a while. But you gradually began to see First American allies announcing their congratulations and then finally, a lot of us were waiting for this, we heard the Chinese Government come forward and say that they acknowledge and congratulate joe biden on his win. Interestingly, though, bob, you did not hear the chines president personally congratulate biden yet. Thats one other shoe to drop that hasnt yet happened. But i think this also gives you a sense of how discombobulating this is for global affairs, to have an american presidency in its final weeks here behaving in a way thats so unrecognizable. From the chinese perspective, to be perfectly blunt, you know, they have actually benefited in a lot of ways from the disorder at the top of the trump presidency. If you look at global polls, you find that for the first time in a pew survey recently that donald trump, the american president , had lower favorability than president ping of china or Vladimir Putin of russia. So in a way china is a little sorry to see trump leave the stage. Its been for them as they put it in chinese a period of strategic opportunity. And that window is now closing. Robert ashley, i want to come back to your point about President Trumps advisors playing along and dig a little deep noor this white house beat. You wrote the president has no clear end game to actually win the election even as his Campaign Continues to contest the results in several states. Ashley, behind closed doors, is this just about showing voters that he fought to the end, and maybe setting himself up for a comeback run in 2024 . Or is there Something Else afoot . Could we actually see a battle in the Electoral College all the way to the house of representatives . Ashley its twofold. At its core, this is a man who sort of loathes nothing more than to lose. And so what youre seeing is someone fighting and running against the tides of the inevitable and being enabled by his team and sort of Establishment Republicans in washington. But its also a president who believes at his core probably not incorrectly that america loves a fighter. That that is what his people and his base really like. Someone who goes down swinging d someone who fights for himself and for them and so as long as he doesnt cross that fine line, and it is a fine line into two loser this is a president who believes that fighting spirit may help him hold his viselike grip on the Republican Party, on the Republican Base if he wants to run again in 2024 or simply wants to hold on to the media spotlight and tease that hes going to run again in 2024 and kind of freeze the whole republican field. Bit it is important to stress one final time as we wrote that there is no end game. I was pressing when i was reporting that piece, Senior Administration officials on that very question, and one of them sort of chuckled and said youre giving us way too much credit. So again, like much in this chaotic administration, there is no end game. There is no master strategy. And this is not three dimensional chess. Robert but rachel, you could still see the president and his allies in differenttate legislatures perhaps try to move forward on some front. The Biden Campaign it won georgia today, georgia was called and theyre winning legal battleness states like michigan, is the Biden Campaign in delaware shrugging this all off or trying to be on their toes what could happen next . Rachel they are not showing any signs that the reality or the results of this election are going to change. You know, its interesting. According to our abc news count, we have joe biden at 306 electoral votes. And thats how many electoral votes that President Trump had when he won the election. And he called it a landslide. And so theyre not really giving too much weight into what the president is doing here. As he was pushing ts just days before the election, they were calling it all a distraction. A distraction away from the reality that at that time, joe biden was leading in the polls. What they do say, though, is this em if a emphasis on the president not facing reality and not coming to the terms with the fact that he has lost the election. This puts the American People in a position where they are the real losersecause theyre not getting that critical access to the information that they need. And they say real time access to that information is what they are going to need to assess the next crisis in the United States. And right now they dont know what they dont know to put it simply. Robert and i heard from senator pat too many toomey this week a republican pat toomey this week a republican that heoesnt believe in his state they willhange the Electoral College or change the electors in any way. Thats one republican speaking out. What about the rest of the party . It seems like they dont want to publicly fight with the president based on my reporting but some say this week that biden should be getting intel briefings. We still dont know who the president is going to be at this point. And so we should be in the same sture that we were in throughout the whole campaign with both of them receiving briefings. For the sake of protecting the country, you want whoever is going to assume that office to be aware of the significant threats. Because the first respsibility of any president is to keep the American People safe. Robert and former president obama who is memoir is coming out next week mass also weighed in speaking to cbs 60 minutes. Here is part of that interview. Im more troubled by the fact that other republican officials who clearly know better are going along with this. Are humanoring him in this fashion. It is one more step in delegit mizing not just the Incoming Biden Administration but democracy generally. And thats a dangerous path. Robert so there are cracks. But not a break. All as thousands of Trump Supporters prepare to rally this weekend in washington, and its all weeks before januarys Georgia Senate runoffs. What will republicans do now . Evan, whats your assessment of that and also president obamas view of democracy . Evan what youve heard over the course of the last few days is this evolution in the message coming out of the Republican Party. It began with essentially resistance of the idea of the reality of the numbers. Then gradually it became lets just humor this president and give him time to process his feelings. And now were into a third stage which is sort of like the kind of nudging language you might hear when you got a smoastage taker who youre trying to get t come out of the bank without hurting himself or anybody else. Its an odd moment. And what you hear in president obamas language is really important. This is not just about hobbling an Incoming Administration with the sort of the aroma of illegitimacy which after all is what happened with him around the birtherism fiction. And that i think is in his mind that. Were hearing something similar. Theres something bigger going on. Which is really its about degrading the Public Confidence in the very office of the presidency. And thats not something you rebuild overnight. Even if you are a president who seeks to unify in the spirit of joe biden. That is the real risk here. It has to do as much with our political culture as it does with our pl particulars. Robert ashley, what is does your reporting tell you about the Republican Party . On one level you saw leader mcconnell saying the president can do whatever he wants but some senators calling for briefings. Why are republicans responding in this way . Ashley first of all, calling for briefings is when joe biden has won the election is hardly a profile in courage. As you put it a small crack but its not Great Strides or great leaps. You know, it comes down to at its core a lot opractical political calculations. There are the immediate ones like the Georgia Senate runoff, leader mcconnell, he wants to remain the majority leader. So he doesnt want to do anything that will provoke President Trumps ire prompting him to intervene in the georgia race in a way that could be problematic for the republican candidates. Then you have republican senators who are up for reelection in 2022. Their fear is that President Trump, hes made clear hes not going away. Goes on, for instance, a rally tour. Coming to their city on a hot friday night, rallying up his base for a primary from the right. They dont want to provoke trumps ire for that reason. And all of these people and a lot can change in four years. But my reporting just about everyone i talked to said even though donald trump lost the election to joe biden, he if the election were held tomorrow, for a republican primary, hwould be the candidate no question. He would be the winner. So you have all of these people, including people in his own administration, his own orbit, people who otherwise would be rising stars for 2024, like a Vice President pence, like a secretary pompeo, who youre also seeing going out and making comments that are not exactly in line with the facts of this election because they want to stay not just on President Trumps good side but on the good side of his millions of supporters who will be crucial to lifting any of them to any sort of future victory. Robert it makes me wondforsomeone like marylands governor larry hogan, more of a centrist who has moved on a bit from President Trump, has a path or maybe the ph as you say its all under President Trumps shadow. Rachel, weve been talking about georgia. And it does loom just a few weeks ahead of us, january 5 runoff. Two senate roffs, two g. O. P. Incumbents. We have senator david perdue vs. Democrat jon ossoff. And then senator Kelly Loeffler vs. Reverend rafael warnock. Rachel, do democrats expect the Biden Coalition in georgia that pulled them ahead and won them the state, white liberals with black democrats and a rising latino population, do they expect to revive itself come january . Rachel yeah. They do. And i think the push here is twofold. First, you have the Democratic Party thats looking at this from a bigger larger point of view. Theyre saying this is a chance to expand the electorate. They are aware that democrats were able to mobilize new voters that have not turned out before in georgia. And those voters helpedut joe biden over the edge. But theyre also aware of the fact that a lot of what joe biden wants to do during his administration will really rely on the makeup of the senate. And whether or not republicans hold a majority. He has a long list of action items that he wants to do on day one. Some that he might be able to do through executive orders. But when yourealking about things like covid relief, youre going to need congress for that. And so if republicans do shold a majority in the senate, that is going to face some pretty significant challenges for joe biden as he takes the oath of office. D you know, its interesting talking to his campaign because they signal that he hasnt really had these conversations yet with Mitch Mcconnell. We know he is the most powerful Senate Republican there on the hill. And it leaves the question and the challenge for joe biden and his team at this point, what does he do . To try and make these inroads with republicans . Republicans who arent even acknowledging him as the president elect. Robert evan, one of the things that comes through in your book is how much of a centrist president elect biden is. And i wonder how you see his vision of 2021 a. Deeply divided washington, as well as his relationship with mcconnell . I was speaking to a couple of Senate Republicans this week. And they said the best thing that happens here is gridlock. And they welcome gridlock. And maybe getting some budget deals done but beyond that, not much, maybe just executive orders. Based on your reporting, your interviews with president elect biden, how do you see it . Evan you know, there is no president in the world that would want to inherit a state of polarization of the kind that were dealing with right no but when i talked to president elect biden, and caidate biden, about exactly this question and how do you actually begin to unwind this state of paralysis that were dealing with . I said do you honestly believe as youve said before that there will be a kind of epiphany among republicans if in fact President Trump is gone . And he doubled down on it. He said look, the honest answer is i do believe there will be an epiphany. But i dont mean it in the way that people sometimes lampoon. I dont think theyre all going to wake up and suddenly become democrats. What i mean is that they will each of them, once you remove the kind of malevolent influence of this president who scares so many of them, as he puts it, thats his way of framing it, that really that makes them recalculate their individual interests. And if you take the most important member of that of that conference after all, its Mitch Mcconnell, those two men really do have a meaningful relationship. Lets not pretend its going to wipe away all the troubles. But Mitch America connell, lets remind ourselves was the only republican senator to attend the 2015 funeral for joe bidens son beau. There was that fateful moment in 2012 when Mitch Mcconnell picked up the phone and called joe biden in the west wing and said is there anybody over there who knows how to make a deal . So these two at least have some basis for a vocabulary of beginning a negotiation. Thats more than you might have with other democrats moving into this job. But its hardly a guarantee of anything beyond that. Robert ashley, youve covered congress. Youve also covered the trumpled Republican Party. How do you see those dynamics in 2021 . Ashley its a great question. I noticed what joe biden said. And im a little skeptical that that is whats going to happen. That there will be this sort of epiphany that evan pressed him son. Just because again, and this is framed with the congress i covered. I coved the 113th under Mitch Mcconnell that made the decision on day one when obama was inaugurated to block every single thing that he wanted to do, the same congress that prevented him from seating Merrick Garland to the supreme court. And so joe biden is an institutionalist. He is a relationship man. A sort of political handshaker, a look you in the eye, feel your pain type of politician. He has served in that body for a very long time. That may be meaningful in some way. Evan points out he and leader mcconnell sort of share at least a similar vocabulary and shared experience set. But in a world in which the decision, whether or not to wear a mask is so deeply polarized and partisan, it is hard to imagine the deals flowing on day one. Robert rachel, we only have about 30 seconds left. But what are you paying attention to in delaware tonight, this weekend, and next week . We heard from the president today. But what should we be all watching with president elect biden . Rachel i think all eyes are who makes up his cabinet and who makes up his administration. We know that hes going to have a very big emphasis on diversity. He said that he plans to have the most diverse cabinet in american history. And remember, it was black voters that propelled him to victory to get the democratic nomination, black voters once again that helped him get the white house. And ers looking to give hes looking to give them some key roles in the administration. Robert well be watching that. But thats it for tonight. Many thanks to our reporters. Really appreciate your time. Evan osnos, ashley parker, and rachel scott. And thank you all for joining us. We will keep taking you as close to this news cycle as we can and check out our next chapter of the Washington Week bookshelf series on our website and social media. Ill chat more with evan about his new book on joe biden. Im robert costa. Good night from washington. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its ption content and accuracy. ] announcer Corporate Funding for Washington Week is provided by before we talk about your investments, whats new . Well, audrey is expecting. Twins. Grandparents. We want to put money aside for them so change in plans. All right. Lets see what we can adjust. We would be closer to the twins. Change in plans. Ok. Mom, are you painting again . You could sell these. Let me guess, change in plans . At fidelity a change in plans is always part of the plan. Consumer cellular. Boeing. Additional funding is provided by the estate of arnold adams and koo and Patricia Yuen through the yuen foundation. Committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. The corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. [gentle music] [machine whirring] [blade grinding] i think theres a large hypnotism with books, and we all know that feeling of reading a book and being so fascinated by it and then kind of blinking out of it, and its like waking up from a dream. You know, you think, i was just fully immersed in this book, and now i see im in this chair, and my coffee has gotten cold. Theres nothing like it, because youre participating in the book