Transcripts For KQED Race Matters America In Crisis A PBS NewsHour Special 20240712

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>> "race matters: america inis cr a pbs newshour special. >> woodrf: good evening, i'm judy woodruff. welcome to this pbs newshour special, "race matters: america in crisis." the death of george floyd at th hands of pol minnesota has ignited outrage across the world and on again exposed the deep wounds ofthacism here in u.s. protesters have filled the streets in cities large and small, demanding justice and change. the vast majority have been violence and looting, andeen there've been aggressive tactics from law enforcement. how americans see all this is filtered part through the lens of race, according to ourw ll, one we do with n.p.r. and marist. 62% of americans say they believe the demonstrations are legitimate protests. 77% of black americans feel that way, but among white americans, it's 58%. 28% of all americans say they believe the demonstrations are people acting unwfully. we want to examine how we got to this moment and where we go from here. that is a long cversation, and we think it's important to start by listening to black aricans. in days to come, all of us will decide what if anything will change. tonight, we will ask questions about policing, ineality and what it means to simply live while black in the u.s. but we begin with two influential voices who hav thought long and hard about black history and america's future. filmmaker and oducer ava duvernay's work has focused on the black experience including the film "selma," the documentary "13th," and the series "when they see us." her media company, array, has a new online educational platform about these issues. darren walker is the president of the ford foundation, which works to reduce poverty, improve equality and socl justice. for the record, the foundation is a funder of the newshour. >> sreenivasan: darren walker, let me start with y. why do you think what happened to george floyd and the reaction to it hasthe hold on us that it seems to have, these massive day across this country? >> judy, i think the moment of reckoning for this country on race has come. geloge f has captured our hearts, our broken hearts. because for african americans, his murder was but an extension and a long list of names over many, many years. we actually as a community were not surprised. i think for ite america, white america was deeply wounded and shocked by thl e visof his murder over eight and a half minutes. and i think for whitemerica, deniability of racism in our policing and inour nation is no longer an option. and that is w it has gripped us and resonates eesoy in the american psyche. >> a duvernay, is it something that is a repeat of what owe've ser and over again or is it something different of what happened to him in this moment? >> certainly, the act of black death is not new. that's, you know-- i think there was something about the tape testifying that was unusual. as someone who unfortunately watches this material a lot r my work. and that was the very clear framingf both people looking directly to the camera you know, in other instances of murder by police on tape, we may see the victim through a body cam, which obsecures the offictr wearinghe camera. we may see it from a distance on a security camera. it's very rare th we've seen both parties in the frame looking directly toward th lens. for me, that's what was startling. i really had tinterrogate for myself, "why is this bringing me to mknees?" pecially when i'm so used to watchinwatching this stuff. that i could see that whiten officer's face, i could see his disdain, i could see his intention, in my view. i could see the callous diegard for human life. >> woodruff: and, darren walker, there's a gut-level demand for justice right now. what okwould justice ike? >> we need to reform the systems that produce too much injustice, omicting with our ec system.we have to look at fundal systems in our economy, like the basic question of how much capital do we allocate for works so that we don't have an economy that poduces too much prospairt for people like me, and too little prosperity for people like george floy we have to look at our criminal justice system and ask why is ie lock up so many black and brown men and women inhis country? educational systemd ask why is it that we have scho districts side by si, one affluent with the rich tax base and great schools; next door, a poor district without school books. this is america. the question is ll we go back to the playbook that we always do, which is to have leaders make statements, to have corporations issue platitudes, make some contributions to black then go back a to business as usual? that playbook will not work on this occasion. >> woodruff: well, when it comes to thefoplaybook the future, at first, it seems to me, people need to talk about and need to have-- come to some duvernay, on o is at fault here? we know the policemen are involved. is generations ofwhite americans? is it the police across the country? is it politicians? who is at fault? >> all of the problems that we're seeing nowtheir foundations lie in our racis history as a country that's never been reconciled. who believ in justice andle dignity of all nlors ad kinds, can we digest that and start to let it nourish us as we really try to dismantle sythestems? we'll have to get out of the framework, the way of thinking that any of this is salvageable, because it's truly ltnot. it's bon a rotten foundation >> i would just say, judy, to this point, we have to also acknowledge that what has happened in this country inthe last two decades is a context of growing inequality in america. and we have d many white people who feelleft behind. inequality is so pernicious in a democracy. because inequality asphyxiates hope, and hope is the ygen of democracy. and so we have too many hopeless people, black and white. buafrican americans have a historic reckoning that this country has never come to terms ath. we ha generation of downwardly mobile white people so this country. e have today a confluence of o realities: the reality of black... which is right, and the reality of growing white that is what we aeing on our streets. >> woodruff: given that, ava duvernay, how do begin to make a difference? >> it's really about inviting people, particularly caucasian people, to put their heads together and think about strategies and tacticsthat only white people can really do.it imagine folk got together who were well meaning people who believed ijustice and dignity for all, packed together with strategies along those lines, very muscular, very demonstratbevend statements, beyond social media hashtags, but thought of strategies to actually work to dismantle these things actively, e think it would be a g changer.>> woodruff: darren wal, civil rights movement, there was dr. martin luther king and oer leaders from the white community, from the black community, leading the way. who were the leaders of today? >> there are courageous leaders willing to raise their hands, to roll up their sleeve. we have to be the leaders we need. we need our corporate leaders to throw out their playbook and start afresh, to get over, put a nail in the coffin of the milt y iedman ideology that corporations' orpose is to make money for shareholders. we have to have oury polmakers and our political system respond to the people who are in the streets. i am inspired by these protesters. the peaceful protesters who society.anto live in a that is not too mh to ask. and the time has come for america to save itself, to save our democracy. >> woodruff: ava duvernay, what would yyou about this question of who do we look to for leadership? and the other question i have for you is what do you say to the young african american boy orirl who is sitting there right now, maybe-- maybe with a white friend, both ofhem fearful about the future? >> we've learned from r american history that leadership with one leader put on a pedestal is derangerous. y black leader that has risen through the american media apparatus has been killed or exiled, and a distributed leadership model is the most healthy and most productive in that there is no one ace to pinpoint the scorn of the system. i would tell young people that these are not our darkest days. that our darkt days are when voices were being ppressed. when black people were not white power structure.ad by the where we were not able to walk into municipal buildings, having to go through the back. there have been gains made. we have to use those as tools in this new era and keep developing our systems and our strategies to def ourselves, and so that's what i would invite the next generation to start thinking a now. a lot of white people called ane texted me, great friends of asking me, "what do i do?" and my answer is educate yourself. there have been white allies throughout the history of amoica who have gottengether and come up with muscular strategies for change. and manyv of them e worked. and so, i feel like there's kind of this "what do i do what do i do?" which really is asking for black labor in is moment to help you think through what to do. trust me, there's something to >> woodruff: and that brings us to the last question i had, darren walker, which is how udo ive people hope? what is the message of hope that you have right now for everyone i watching? > very hopeful, judy. there are so many reasonfor hope. first, because we live in a democracy, and every american needs to vote. we can see ons the streetross this country reasons for hope-- r,g, black, and brown and qund people in wheelchairs, people old and young in the streets. they are in the stres because they, too, love america. they wnt america to be america. >> i believe that we can do better, and that's where hope lies. inbelieve that this might be a tipoint. it's hard to say. you know, but i'm hopeful that it is. and i'll be working to engage with that hope actively. and that's what i-- i vite others to do alongside us. >> woodruff: ava duvernay, darren walker, we thank you both so much. thank you. >> thank you. >> woodruff: we turn now to the issue of policing and start by hearing from someone who knows firsthand about law forcement and its intersection with black americans. four years ago, terence crutcher was shot and killed by a police officer in tulsa, oklaha. yamiche alcindor recely spoke with his sister, tfany. and a warning: se of the images will be difficult to watch. >> my name is dr. terence crutcher, twin sister of terrence crutcher who was killed in tulsa, oklama, in 2016 by a white police ofcer by the na of betty joe shelby. birrence, they called him anytimcrutch." he was a gentle giant. he was just a beautiful, beautiful soul. ( sirens ) he was leaving to go to a church service with my mom and daand, 15 minutes later, he was dead. and so, his vehicle stalled in the middle of th road. from the testimony of betty elby, she said she thought he was high, and that he may have been having a mental hea breakdown, and she wanted to help him. and then saw terrance nt communicating, not looking well, and she lled for backup. next thing we know, if you look at the video, there's police ceoffi fleeing in, there are hecopters looming. >> i think he may have just been tasered. >> shots fired! >> and then the video just stops, and terrence is gone. and we found out that he tawas d and shot simultaneously, and i know he arwas und. and i know he didn't see the bullet coming. and the next thing that i remember and that i see ery night when i lay down is dyhis n the ground with blood everywhere. >> what was your reaction to watcng the death of george floyd on video? >> george on video, i felt like terrance was shot all over again. this time, it ntwas diffe you know, hearing george cry out for his mom, nd watching the officer not even care orove, elicited a stress reaction physically. and i couldn't sleep for at least three days. >> and broke out inhives from the stress. and it's just been i would s traumatizing. >> what don't people understand are killed on video? loved ones what's not shown about your experience? >> what's not shown is that it's impacting us in a severe way, from a mental health standpoint. r example, i got pulled over after terrence was killed, and i took his little boye, tence jr., and some of his cousins to the movies. and nen the police ted on the lights and just sped up behind us, we pulled over, but the kids were screaminghi ng, "we'istorichysterically, sai going to be shot. we're going to be killed." i had to calm him down. terrence's kids are still in counseling. they go twice a month. and right now, his daughters are saying, "i wish that ople would have protested for my dad like they're doing for george, like they're doing for ahmaud," and theye dealing with the situation every single day, every time that happens on national tv. >> woodruff: sewe'v that same exhaustion, anger and frustration in the thousands aro thousands ofsters out across the country. for many, george floyd's death was just the latest exa omp decades of mistreatment by law enforcement. like floyd's and tual cases, crutcher's, and rodney king before the statistics show african-americans bear a disproportionate toll at the hands of police. a 2019 study found that black men and boys are almost 2.5 times more likely to be kille by police than white men and boys. arbut the diies manifest in ways beyond fatal encountersl and, as we war, the effect on many black americans from all walks of life runs yamiche alcindor will have a conversation on all this, but first, we hear more voices of those affected. y life for no reason of your i want to be able to outside, do whatever i nt to do, stop worrying about somtrying to call the cops on me because i'm standing in front of their store, or someone calling the cops on usme bei'm walking across the street or i want to walk in their store with a hoodie on. that's how i want to walk. >> for it to be 2020 and this is still happening, it's heartbreaking and nothg is being done. >> it's happening so much, they expect a black man's life each n month is going to be taby the police. >> i have been stopped by the police when i had a whfrite gind, and he asked how we knew each other and i told him. he said, "i guess that's permitted now." >> have four children, and i've worked so hard to cultivate their lis and their beingness. and so the idea that they can have a random encounter with a police officer, and they get d o eir life, they get to end their future. f> my plans were to actually be a police oficer, but then i realized that one good apple in a bad batch really doesn'tmake a difference, because once you sign your life over to that badge, youave to be loyal to who you work for. >> my hope for the future is that the injustices that continue to happen over and ovet again, thy can be learned from and used as a lessonn order to create change. >> for a closer look at these concerns and fears i'm joined by tracie keesee, cofounder for the center of policing and equity. she is also a former denver lice captain and a former n.y.p.d. discipline commissioner of equity and inclusion. and tef poe. he's an activist anrper who arted "hands up united", in reaction to the killing of michael brown in ferguson, missouri. the group advocates for moacre untability in policing. thank you so much for both of you for being here. i'm going to start with you, tef. whayour reaction to seeing the video of george floyd >> i felt very disturbed that a law enforcement officer could murder somebody like that in cold blood. and i was even more disturbed by the fact that the other officers stood around and wated it and i think that speaks a lot about the state of oucountry today. >> tracie, what did you think when you saw that white police officer kneeling on george floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds? >> for me it's not just why, why are you doing is that thaad? it is one of which why is everybody standing around and why isn't anybody intervening? i think like most, i was almost physically sick to my stomach. again conflicted. i have been in unifor i hartainly been in spaces where i had to userce. but the immediate reaction to me is why agn? y are we here. >> tef talk to me about your experience asa black man and interactions with police. >> i try to keep my interaction with law enfcement as minimalistic as possible. it can go any type iof way those discourses and it usually distribute go in my vor. even if i'm calling the police on someone that could be attacking me or breaking intoy home. it could still result in me ending up the person that's dead. so my first memory of the police in a rl sense as a young black boy is my father pulling into a had drove into a neighborhoodw and got lost. and the police pulled into the driveway and pulled us over, pulled him t the car, questioned him, threatened to take him to jail because they said that they kn we didn't live at that house. nd i just remember that. and that's-- thleft a lasting impression to me about interacting with the police almost for the rest of my life, even to beinunger adult myself who's had pistols aimed at me by the police, shot at by the police. >> reporty,er: trhat do you make of what tef is saying? where have yoseen bias play out in policing, foand what s do you think need to take place? >>n, so, i mef doesn't need me to validate his voice. i think he said it perfectly. icat is the experience of many black men in amthat he so aptly described. and when we talk about where do you see bias? i mean, you see bias in all areas. but i think what we've got to do is back up and understand the system of criminal justice itself was designed to do exactly what it's designedo do. and so, when we talk about structural racism, we talk about how it plays out and what it looks like. we know there's disparities in the outcomes of poling and happening here today movement.eform thisgs a movement that's go to require something absolutely different than what is happenin and unless there is a ordinated efrt to look at what we are calling policing today, and if we're not taking into account about howmm ities believe that public safety should be served and we can talk about reforms all-- all we want. and i don't know about tef, but, for me, you know, there's exhaustion. there's generation exhaustion here, and it's just not going to be, nor will it be allowed to be the same. >> reporter: tef, i met you in ferguson in 2014. you were active in the protests then after the killing of michael brown. why do you think this moment in 2020 is different and is happening? and what do you make of that exhaustion that tracy is talking about? >> tracy couldn't be more correct. donald trump is a master of outrage fatigue. every week, every day, everyll hour, every econd of the functioning dath there is sog to be outraged about. and we have to remember that the obama administration did not challenge the militarization of policing to the degree that we have reworked our memories t remember. and we also have to remember that we are now fnunctioning this linear aspect of a two- party system where neither the icdemocrats nor the repus are giving us suitable answers about wh to do about rogue policing. as things currently stand, this isn't really a black or white thing anyre. so, that's the real problem for the united states government at this point, that the citizens are genuinely uprising on their own and taking matters into their own hands. >>eporter: the minneapolis police department was credited in somways as trying to implement some of the changes and reforms that activists were calling for, but this still happened. tracy, can you talk a little bit about the barriers tchange here? >> one of the tngs is, know the culture of policing itself. this is not new. this is not a conversation that is just popping up on the radar. there's beenong conversations about the culte of policing and the narratives that support some of the things that happen. the other thing is you have chiefs that don't last, right. so, you have sneomho's trying to do the right thing. chiefs' tenures are usually three to four years. that's not enough to do much of anything but to maybe do policies and train folks. the other barriers is that you really need to tnk abwhout 's happening here are not just officers who are engaging. you have to fundamentally think about what type ce police or ofdo you want? what do you-- what do you want in them? what shoulthey be able to emonstrate and do? one of the sort of fixes to this were to have officers of corsr, black offiand organizations. and if you have not, take the time and speak to officers of color and women, and they will definitely tell you that when u're in a male-dominant profession and a white mae-dominant profession, th are hurdles. and, typically, folks who want to do the right thing meet barriers. people who speak out against the right thing meet barriers. and then you have the organization itself, which is typically still premaminately whit. there's some exceptions to that, but yoalso have to think about what you have going on inside. when you look at organizations where decisions are being made, where all the patrol officers are down at the bottom-- of color are at the bottom. and as you look through the organization, through people who impact on polind community, it is not reflective. part of moving forward will be things. and there's been plenty, plenty of recommendations, plenty of evidence-based pieces that have been given that can help do that. >> reporter: what do you say to people who think all police are why do you still believe in this system of policing? >> so, first, let me talk about aall police are bad." i mean, i under where that would come from. t i . but because i work with them personally, i was one, i know that's not the case. know there's people inside that organization, many organizations trying to do the right thing. onthe question that's lef the table is what does that look like moving forward? and so, we do know thaint w ck to the old rulebook of how you engage and you, you know, inform your policies are not going to work. >> reporter: and last word to you tef. where do we go from here? what do you want to see happen? >> what i would love to see happen is for both black and white police officers to really open up their third eye and understand what's happening here. y are allowing yourselves to be weaponized to the good of the oligarchs, to the good of people who have no good for you in the sense you have become the toy soldiers of the rich. zed that can change right now, but we as the ci can't change that. and there's no way in hell that law enforcement should w be with the constituencies that they live next door to right now. t like, when ye that uniform off, you live next door to the same people you're shooting at, and that's ridiculous. >> reporter: so much to talk about. thank you, tracy and tef. >> woodruff: as we discussed earlier tonight, this past week's protests have also re-ignited demands about tackling deep inequality in america. african americans face g staggeris in wealth and income, inho educationing, and health care-- gaps that have been laid bare and made narse by the corus pandemic. even as today's jobs report for the month of may saw whiteem oyment drop, blackos unemploymentto nearly 17%. amna nawaz will focus on the ros of these problems in a moment, but first, let's hear from people who live with them. >> to be black in america is to know the full preciousness and precarrity in life. i have asthma, and since the lockdown has sort of happened around the pandemic, i haven't eft my home. i'm telling you this that you understand how much it wuld take to get me out of the house and to be on the streets, that the risk was worth it to me. >> the protests have a lot-- a lot of white alli, and i love that. now, what i would slike e is to have those people using their power of the purse to help black businesses grow. because we n desperatelyd it, especially in the era of covid-19. >> slavery bui every piece of this country. there is not one sector, not onn stry that avery did not help it's banking, education, health-- pick anything. we built this. of course we believe in this. of course we believe in this country.it >> it startsour school system, writing black people and people of color into theec curriculum,se racism is something that is learned. cop shooting somr chokingcist them out. that it's also how we show up in our workplaces. it's how we assess healthcare access and equality, and how we assess education and employment as well, that all of these areas have work to do. >> the consistent eme across oppression is that black people are at the core of it. if we're talking about misogyny and the gender wage gap, it's black women who are being most impacted. fewer black women in this country, regardless of class, you are 243% more lely to die from maternal morbidity or mortality. rst soave birth to my fi at piedmont hospital in atlanta. you would express ur pain or you would express a particular issue that you're having, and the number otimes that medical professionals would say to you, "oh,stet's wait it out and see if it doesn't get better." i live my body. i live in my experience, so i already know that it's going to beinimized. so i do everything possible on my end. so by the time come to you, i am in desperate need. >> when this all calms down, what happens? right now, this is good, this is positive. but what happens when there's no signs and there'so cameras, no microphone whatare we doing every day. each and every day. >> reporter: for more now on how those inequalitees are perpet even protected, by american stems and institutions, i'm joined by: dr. lauren powell, executive director of healthcare at time's up, which fights harassment and discriminati she was previously the director of health equity for the virginia health deplltment. m darity is a professor of public policy at duke public policy at duke university and co-author of "from here to equality: reparations for black americans in the 21snicentury"; anle hannah-jones is an investigative reporter for the "new york times magazine"-- she led their pulitzer-prize winning 1619 projectexamining the legacy of slavery in this country and centering the stories of black americans. welcome to you all, and thank you for being here. and, dr. powell, i want to start with you, because we cannot forget this moment is unfolding on top of a global health crisis here in america. black americans are disproportionately affected.ey ake up 13% of the population but more than a fifth of all covid-related deaths. you've called this your nightmare scenario. why? >> well, i think that thisco moment is luence of several historic injustices all at once. i was talking with a colleague not too long ago, and a colleague in emergency management. and i really expressed that my biggest fearas that something h terrible as the murder of george floyd woupen in the middle of this pandemic and that people would feel the ed and the willing-- the rifle need to protest in this moment. and the intersections what tvid-19 is already doing to the black community of the potential for spread in protests certainly led to what i called "my worst nightmare" and what is actually coming to pass right now. >> rr: professor darity, i want to ask you about the economic crisis we also cannot ignore y, which again disproportionately affecting black americans. black workers have been diroportionately affecd. their businesses, many of them are essential workers continuing to work on the front lines. it cannotet any clearer that the fact that the gaps in wealth and wages pre-date the pandemic, phicgh, in this one gr and i just want to share this, it was published this week inpo the "washingtost"-- it shows median household wealth over the last 70 yearin ame that top line, which is continuing to go up, is white household weal the bottom line is black household wealth, basically stagnaeant over 70. people will look at that and wonder, how is that possible? what do you say to them? >> i think it's a consequence of the intergenerational effects of the cumulative impact of america's racial history. the starting point for the gap that you desibed in the ag that you presented is the failure to provide the formerly enslaved with the 40-acre land grants that they were promised at the end of the civil war. that failure was accompanied by the provision of 160-acre land grants in the western part of outhe united states to num white families. so, on the one hand, the formerly enslaved got nothing, which precluded their oppounity to pass resources down to subsequent generations, while many white americans received substantial land grants. and then american national policies surrounding housing acquisition in the 20th century, particularly redlining,we a as the presence of predatory lending for homeowners-- all of these factors accumulate over time to create the kind of thracial wealth disparitie we're observing now. >> reporter: and, nikole, to brg us backo this moment, now, we're havwhg to question we look at the wealth of individuals and households, but also-- also how we as a country spend our resources. it's led to this question and the message of defunding the poce. i'm curious what you make of that conversation right now. >> well, what we know is, in a capitalist country, what we value is shown by what we put our resources towards. we have seemed to have an unending amount of resources militarizing the police, towards building jails, towardsrc ination, even as we've seen public school spending go flat. even that we have seen decline in spendinon public goods and services. even as we've tried to cut prog programs such as food stamps. so, what the pandemic has shown us is thatf we decide at we want to meet basic needs of our citizens, we, in fact, can do that. we just are choosing not to. we suddenly have found that we studenovide all of our with internet-ready devices ifth we want toat we can ask cable companies to give free internet to our students, that we can provide three meals a day for our families and our schools. said we couldn't do, we've done. how do we then go back to not doing those things once this pandemic is over? >> reporter: you mentioned the educion component, which doesn't get enough attvetion. and yoone so much extraordinary reporting,on unpacking thing segregation of american schools. we talk a lot about official accountabily this time, bu i want to ask you about individual accountability. caexplain a little bit about how the individual decisions that we make as americans,bout where we live and where we send our kids to school, how that contributes to that segregation? >> yes, o, f course. know that inequality is both structural and held up by invidual choices that everyday americans make. have school districts that are very segregated, but they're segregad because the most powerful parents in a school strict, which are affluent white parents, want isothat way. anon the one hand, we have large numbers of americans, the majority of americans who say they believe in school equality and they believe in integration. but tn they make individual choices that benefit their own children, that ensure that their own chdren will get access to the best public schools. they fight against efforts to take off things that screen children out, like exams to geto chools, portfolio reviews to get into schools. and so, en though we see these large kind of systemic equalities, parents are holding those inequalities up withndheir iidual choices and also fighting the systemic changes, as well. >> reporter: professor darity, leme follow up with you on that. th idea of individual accountability, when it comes to the economy, when it comes to systems that have been built arer 400 years, how do individuals stto make decisions to dismantle them and to make sure that those racist ideas are not perpetuated? >> so, i think individuals hav to get into the process of supporting social polimaes that coul the structural changes in american lifte that could the kinds of inequalities that we're talking about. it's also a question of what your political actions are in terms of supportinghe kinds of social policies that we need to alter the circumstances. and, in particular, with respect to the racial wealth gap in the work that i've done with ki tten mullen a book that you mentioned, "from here to equality," we've aued that a naogram of reparations would be required to eli that huge cial wealth chasm, and a program of reparations on the order of the provision of $10 trillion to $12 trillion and resources to native black americans. these resources would be b requirause we are in a present situation in which black americans constitute about 13% of the nation's population but only have 2.6% of tion's wealth. black heads households with a college degree have two-thirds of the net worth of white heads of households who never finished high school. and this is clear evidence of the effects of-- the long-term cumulative effects of america's racial history that i mentioned earlier. >> reporter: dr. twell, there s cumulative effect. clearly, we're having this conversati right now largely because of policing and because of thure life-and-death nof policing for black americans.on the decijust to go out and prest right now is a life-or- death dec yision. whenou look at all of the protests that are growing, are now unfolding in every single state, what's your biggest ouncern? how doell someone whether or not they should participate in this moment? i do think we have to recognize there are some risks in going out to protest right now. we are still in a public health emergency. we are still in a pandemic. so to that extent, protesters should aeolutely be pring themselves. this entire situation had unfolded arolice and the excessive use of force. that means we should really be rethinking, should you be using pepper spray? likely not. in a pandemic where the virus is spread through-- through person- to-person transmission through droplets, pepper spray causes people to cough. tear gas causes people to cry and causes people to want to remove their maskses and so, e are some of the things that our own government and our own lawmakers shod be considering. evenen in this m- and i will say i think it's a privilege to be able to-- to think about separating the two of these moments together. the underlying golden thread, if you will, between covid-19 and the response we're seeing following the murder of george floyd, the golden thread that binds the two together is racism. and so, there will never be a convenient moment, there will never be a convenient time to ggin the work of dismantl racism. and so, to that point, you know, i say i think that people have to weigh the odds on their own. they have to weigh the risks on their own and do recognize that emergency. in it, in an and so, there are still risks to going out, but i do think that it's possible to do it safely. >> reporter: i thank all three of you very, very much for youri and for being with us. that's dr. lauren powell, the ol hannah jones, and professor william darity. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. st woodruff: the wo weeks have been a wake-up call to many, but for ack americans, racism, bias and offensive behavior are blended into their lives, in their workplaces, in their communities. and as many of them told us, it weighs on both them and their children. >> when i was nine years old, my ther took away my water gun. he said, "you can't have water gun because the police won't know that you're a little boy." >> i have spent the last week paying close attention to the development out of minneapolis and globally, taken my one-year-old son to thhowhite e multiple times so that he could, you know, feel it, if not understand it. offense in life.n get you get to take risks. you get to overcome failure. you get to learn lessons the hard way. and i think black kids have to ay defense first. >> this fear is real for us. it's not an illusion. we've been dealing with this all of our lives. >> you have to tonese yo down as a black person, just white people can't be afraid of you. >> i don't want to tense up every time i see a police car. an hd automatically, nds go to the top of my steering wheel. i want us to thrive, not justy o survive each day, try to survive each ei ounter. >> me from a multacial family. i have always felt like-- and my parents-- i mean, in dct and indirect ways told me all throughout my childhood and even in my adult years, thahave to work twice as hard to prove myself. and it's not fair. i can't make mistake like other people make mistakes bause i will be judged differently. i will experience cquonces differently. >> people of crr colorare always being told we have to be the one to forget. i want to knowwhy? why do i have to forgive you when you continue to hurt me? why do i have to forgive you when you continue to hurt those i love? why do i have to forgive youo whenu continue to make the kids i work with feeless than? i shouldn't have to porgiv forgu for that. african-american families, the challenges, the phen, and outright exhaustion connected with this kind of behavior present their own distinct burdens. special correspondent charlayne hunter gault talks with a father and his grown son aboutheir work over decades ate change. >> reporndter: cleveellers-- a.k.a. cleve-- is one of the iconic legends of the 1960s civil rights movement. his son, bakari sellers, is a former south carolina legislator whose recent book is called "my vanishing country." thank you much for joining joining me. it's great to see youfter all these years. let me start with you, cleve. based on youenyears of expe, this george floyd killing is nothing new, right? >> absolutely. the murder of emmett till was the thing that i kded of loped my social consciousness around. >> reporter: and, of course, emmett till was lynched tensibly for whis at a white woman. and so, how did all of what youe weeriencing during the civil rights movement right on up through the time you yourself got sh in orangeburg while young people were demonstratinge and four men w killed-- how did that affect your advice to your son, bakari, growing up? >> african-american men had to tell our sons out the survival skills. and we a had to tell them the protocol that they should follow in order f them not to get arrested for just being indignant about the name-calling by police officers a antagonisms by police officersha sothey can get home and we could then litigate-- protest the tions of that particular officer.am so, it bimportant for me to do that with all three of my children, oneerho was a daug and we talked to her about driving at night in the blue light home and having to pull over in an area that had lights and had some people around so at you wouldn't be isolated. and then end up like sandra bland. >> reporter: sodi, bakari, how your father's advice impact you? >> well, it wasn't as much the advice as it was the example that my father set. rod i'm act of the proverb, "it takes a village to raise a child." you know, in my book, "my vanishing country," i talk about all of these people part of my proverbial village, and my father always took mtomo the als. he always took me to the services. he let me have these-- sit at the adult tables and have these conversations with many of these heroes. and i write-- and because it's so true-- that heroes walk among us. and so manof the lessons that emre passed down to me, they were built on thise that our history is more than just martin, malcolm and rosa. but instead, we have to upholdna ths like ella baker, like fannie lou hamer, like modjeska simkins and septima clark. and those lessons are the ones that ring true, especially today. >> reporter: and you pass those along to your-- your children, as well? >> i have a 15-year-old daughteu wh got her permit, and now she'll be driving. and many ofhose conversations that black parents have to have with black children, that white their kidse having today.e with i talked with her if a police officer is behind you, make re you call 911 and go too a well-lit area, because i don't want her to be sana bland. i don't want her to be mistaken for anything. so, she has to watch her hands. i mean, at the end of the day, one of the things we need to realize is that innyhis country, lack folk don't get the benefit of their humanity. and i'm petrified that one day there may be oicer who does not see my daughter as being anything-- as being-- as being anything but human.in you knowhe george floyd case, you can't tell me that those officers saw george as being a human being. they set on his neck for eight minutes. and that's the fear that i have of raising a black child, that her life will be cut short simply because of a fear, a paranoiaora lack of humanit a lack of dignity, because she's a black girl in this country. >> reporter: leme ask both of you, given the reaction, widespread reacti to the george floyd case, are you optimistic that things are finay going to change? i mean, i just heard you give a long list of things that have been going on with black children all thse years. >> i think that, you know, for the black lives matter, it's time to begin to bring people together and to organize folks and begin to put something in place that has some kind of-- of place that has some kind of-- of-- texture to it and some kind of framework to it. >> reporter: and bakari, so, how optimistic are you that this new wave of protts are going to change things in a very significant way? perhaps more than in the past? >> i don't know if i can say that, but the biggest problem is that this has become a cycle that is perpetuated in this country. and let me also just push back slightly on the framing of the question, because i don't want anybody to believe that this is about george floyd alone. this isnt . this is aborge floyd. this is about breonna taylor. this is about ahmaud arbery. this about david mackenzie. and this is ajuut systemic ice and institutionalized racism that's been perpetuated in this country f years upon year upon decades upon centuries. and to channel my father and fannie lou hamer, people are tired.nd tired of being sick and and so, now, we're at the point now, where i'm-- i-- my job is to break that perpei'al cycle. anproud that people like taylor swift and carson wentz and trevor lawrence are coming out. >>eporter: so, you sound little bit optimistic that this massive protest movement fromou the world-- not just in this country, but around the world now-- that's a bighange from the past, isn't it? >> i don't know if it's a big change. let me just say that my father's generati captivated the world dofore. like, t really give people credit for showing up. i want to see the follow-through. and i hope that people are people will be th faith that but this will be new. this will have to be a new door that is opened. and, you know, i have three children and i'm going to remain on this journey for truth and justice and peace, but i don't want t to pam down the same america that i have now. >> reporter: just very quickly to both of you as a final questio how much of the follow-through is going to depend on voting? >> well, i thina lot of it is going to depend on voting, but there are going to be structural changes that are going to have and i think, like roy wilkins said, "how many coffins must-- must we walk behind we can find justice and equality and peace and love?" >> reporter: so, i think i hear both of you sayiedng what you to say, we all used to say back in the day of the civil rights movement: "we've got to keep on keeping on." is that right? >> amen. "keep on keeping on." "no justice, no peace." >> woodruff: and thank you, charlayne. as we've heard throughout the program, there's a responsibility to move to meaningful and lasting change that all of us, especially white americans, have to address. many people have been asking for resoces and ideas. on our web site, you can find a list of books, articles, podcasts, and videos aimed at helping all of us challenge our own ases and educating ourselves about institutional arcism and theers that african americans still face every day. you can find all that at www.pbs.org/newshour. and that concludes our special,m "race matters:ica in crisis." we want to thank all those w shared their voices tonight, and we want to thank you for taking the time to listen along with . our country has been rocked in the aftermath of one event in one city, but to heal and move forward as a natn, it will take many difficult conversations in every city and town, with as many of us engaged as possible. at the start of the pandemic, we came togetr as a country, and by staying at home, that unity helped save liw s. have thehance to come together again to change lives and save them, too. i'm judy woodruff. for all of us atthe pbs newshour, thank you. please stay safe and see you soon. captioning sponsored by wnet ioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org jojim brown: us for 50 years with peter, paul and mary. it's an anniversary special featuring america's favorite folk group singing the songstthat changed y and became the soundtrack of our lives. fifty years with peter, paul and mary, on pbs. explore new worlds and new ideas through programs le this. made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from views like you. thank you.

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