Why doesnt the president call me . Heh hello, general powell. This is ronald reagan. Yes, sir. Ha woman would you f your tie, please david well, people wouldnt recognize me if my tie was fixed, but ok. [woman giggles] david jave it this wa all right. I dont consider myself a journalist, i began to take on the life of being an interviewer, even though i have a day job running a private equity firm. How do you define leadership . What is it that makes somebody tick . Were here today at city college, the place that you graduated from a number of years ago. Poll thank you,viavid. Why did you pick city college . Powell i was accepted at ccny ani was accepted at nyu, and the reason i went to ccny is nyu was charging 750 a month a year. I couldnt handle that. Family didnt handle that, so i took ccny cause it was free and because it was easy to get to and iheard a lot about it. David and you grew up in. The bronx . Powell i was born in harlem, about a mile frohere, and i grew up in the south bronx section of new york, davi your parents were immigrants from. Powell jamaica. David jamaica . Powell yep. David so growing up in new york, did you enjoy new york as a young boy . Powell i thought it was a wonderful place to be a kid. E,it was such a diverse plthat d onat this is what the world is, full of people of different backgrounds, cultures, colors, you name it. And, of course, ccnyplica. Of different backgrounds, i learned a little bit of yiddish working for 6 years in another corner of the south bronx at a place called j. Sicksers, which sold juvenile furniture and carriages and toys. He was a russian jew. It was me, there was irish driver, and an italian salesman in the store. And one story i love to tell is, after i had been doing this for a couple of years with j. , he came up to me and he put his arm around my shoulder and he says, collie, collie a jewish yiddish diminute collie, collie, don think you can stay here at this store. This will go to my daughters and to their husbands. I wantyou should get your education and go somewhere and do something. D i had intention of staying at that store and being whats called a schlepper, somebody that just drags boxes around. Schlep. Everybody knows what schlep means. It touched me so deeply that i rembered it for the rest of my life and wrote about it in my memoir. He thougugh of me to tell me that i should get my education and move up, and thats what i did, and ccny was the source of that education. David did ever think that one day you would be the chairman of the joint chiefs and the secretar sof state of the unittes . Powell no. People ask me thatthis all the time. It usually stat with, what year esdid you graduate from wpoint . Well, i didnt go to west point. I couldnt have aspired to go to wt point. Well, did you go to the citadelr did you go to texas a m or Virginia Military institute . Id say, no, they wouldnt let ack guys in then. It was beyond any possible level of aspn or expectation, but it happened. Why did happen . Because i got a Quality Public School education elementary school, junior high school, high school, and then ccny let me in with my modest average. Then it was rotc and ccny that really made the difference. David and you were a geology major. Dithink you were going to go into the geology world . Powell no, i was a geology major cause i busind out of civil engine ok . Now you know. [audience laughter] that didnt need to come up,c david heh heh so when you graduated, when youre ga rotc, you have an obon to go in the military for how many years is it . Powell it was fo3 years at that time, and i was a professional career officer, i got a regular army commission, and so i went in as a career choice. David you went to the south for training. Powell i gradt ted in 58 and then w fort benning, which was still in a segregated state in a segregated city columbus, georgia. So i knew wes that, on post, i walike anybody else, but as soon as i left post, there were placei could not go, stores i could not go into, places i could never think of even ordering a hamburger, and i was thrown out of hamburger joints in columbus, georgia. David the would say, we dont serve you . Powell it was even worse than that. And i knew i couldnt go in, so i just went to the window and asked for a hamburger, and this nice white lady from new jersey im sorry. I dont know why, but i cant serve you. You can go around the back. I said, no, thanks. So i went back onto the base. And that was in early 1964, an the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the accommodations act, was signed in july, just before july 4. And on july 5, i went back to that hamburger joint, and they served me. And what america discovered is that segregation was not just a burden for blacks. It was a burden for whites. We were living in a crazy system. David so where di meet your wife . Powell in boston. It was on a ind date. Mi there was a friend o di who was interestede . In almas roommate, so he talked me into going on a blind date to take alma out of the way. David oh. [audience laughter] powell and so went in there, and she was mad. She had no intention of dealing with a soldier or goi with a soldier, but she changed her mind when we had a chance to meet and talk for a little while. And then 9e dated for about 8 onths and we became very close, im g bng to vietnam, and ian advisor to a Vietnamese Infantry unit, and ill be away for a year and i hope youll write me. She said, thats all you want me to , is write you . I said, well, yeah. [scattered laughter] and she sao. I said, no . No, im not just gonna sit here for a year, waiting to see what your interests might when you get back. If this is all i mean to you, no, im not gonna write you. Find somebody else to write you. And so i dve back the next night and asked if she would marry me and write me. Audience member aw. Powell and she said yes. David you went to vietnam, and u were injured . Poll yeah. David and you came back to the states and you went back again to vietnam. about 5 years later, i went back and got injured again, yeah. David and when you came back, your career really took off a bit you became a white house fellow. Powell i did. I was one of aboutople who would serve one year in washington in oca of the offices of thnet. In my case, i worked in the office of management and budget, and i learned a lot about government in that year. David after your white house fellowship, you did what . Powellmai went to korea to c a battalion, an Infantry Battalion in korea. David ok. Powell its a year th ive considered one of the most rewarding years we wer starting out in the volunteer army, and it was my opportunity not only to train these young people, but to give them a ged education lad english as a seconuage. David you eventually went to europe. Powell i was in europe as a young lieutenant for two years, and then the period youre talking about is i worked for cap weinberger. David the secretary of defense . Powell he was the secretary of defense, and i was his military assistant, his senior militarassistant. And we became exceptionally close, wand after two years, time for me to move on and get back in the army, d they got me an assignment in germany, where i was gonna take command of a division. I was now a twostar general. And then, one day, the chief of staff, general wickham, walks in and says, i was nweve changed. Eneral. I said, what have wesir, the familys packed. We got the house sold, gotstuffs moving. Mr. Weinberger wants yoer to stay here for anoear. I said, and not take a division . And thats ri and then he said something which was quite right. He says, just remember, colin, youre here to serve, and you serve where we need you. I can find division commande anywhere. Mr. Weinberger, the secretary of defense, wants you to stalonger. Yes, sir, and then i went in that evening to see mr. Weinberger, secretary weinberger, and he knew i was kind of disappointed. And so he looked at me and he says, well, you know,olin, youre not going to get a division now, and i know that disappoints you, but next year, youre going to get a corps, and thats two divisions. David right. Colin corps is a much larger ganization, 70,000 people in the fifth corps. And a year later he let an go, and i went to ge and took command of the fifth United States corps headquartere tin frankfurt, guardi fulda gap, one of the invasion routes we expected the russians tcome in. David so that was a great job powell it was a great job. It laste4 months. David because what happened was there was the irancontra scandal. Powell yep. David new National Security advisor, frank carlucci, came in and he wanted you deputy. Powell and i said, frank, it cant be that important. He says, it is that important. So then i said, ok, see if you can risk your entire career by saying the next sentence. I said, well, frank, if its that important, why doesnt the presidt call me . Heh [scattered laughter] halfhour later, that important, why doesnt dad you get a call from. Powell hello, general powell. This is ronald reagan. Yes, sir. Ha ha i really, really want you to come back here. Hes reading thenkalking points that fave him. I really, really want you to come back here anhe deputy National Security advi yes, sir, ill be right there. So thats it. David so yo back . Powell yeah. 9 months later, frank got assigned to become the secretary of defense, and im saying, good i can go back to the army now. And then, one dai was chairing a National Security council meeting, and suddenly the door opens e president walks in and gets to the head of the table. And frank comes around to the sid and while the meeting is going on, frank rips off a piece of paper and scribbles something on it and he sends it down the table to me. And i open up the little piece of paper and it says, you are now the National Security advisor [scattered chuckling] no interview, no nothing. So the lar and a half of my time in the white house was with president reagan. Became an exemely close and strong relationship. David when the administration ended, you went back into a military position, but not that long afterwards, president George Herbert walker bush, the president of the United States right after ronald reagan, said, powell after i left president reagan, i went over to see the chief of staff of the army to ask if the army still wanted me. I didnt want to be ordered back into the army. I wanted the army to say they wanted me. And the new president , president George Herbert walker bush, had offered methe second day as president elect,. He offeris me 3 jobs in his admation. And i thanked him for the offer. I didnt say no right away. I went to see the chief of staff of the army, general vuono, and i said, chief, if you want me back d have something for me, id bethats what i want to do, but if its too difficult and my u rewy career so far, if ink its ti me to leave, just say so and, you know, im gone. And he said, no, we nt you back, we have a position for you, and i said, thank you. And then i went back to the wh and the president was there with the Vice President , and i ththe Vice President for his offers, but, no, im going back to the army. Im going to be the commander of the forces command, it was called, and president reagan said, well, is that a promopron . I said, yes, mrident. Ill be getting my fourth star. He said, oh, thats good, in that typical reaganesque fashion, yeah. Im in atlanta, georgia, with a great command, a beautiful house, nice headquarters, and im at a conference, in the Baltimore Area with all the army senior 4stars, and i get a call secretary cheney now the secretary of defense wants to see you, and so i said, uhoh. So i go to the pentagon in chinos and a polo shirt and go intoffice and he says, president bush wants to make you the chairman. David early in the bush administration, Saddam Hussein invaded kuwait, and was it clear to you that we should go in and try to kick him out . Powell well, it was clear to me that this was a horrible invasion and it could not be allowed to stand, and the first challenge was to make sure he didnt go sou into saudi arabia. And so general schwarzkopf was the commander in this region, and he and i were pretty close and we tked about all of this. David you invented something that became known as the powell doctrine. Powell not quite. It was invented by a Washington Post reporter, who came to see me one day, and he said, im writing an article about the powell doctrine. I said, great. What is it . [scattered laughter] he sai what you always say and what you did when we invaded panama and took out manuel noriegaone, make sure you go to war after all diplomatic and political possibilities have been dealt with, and there s to be a clear political objective, not just a military objective; anhethen the second part ofowell doctrine is i used overwhelming force once, but what ive ways said is decisive force, so that people dont think you have to sort of have a gazillion people, just have what you need ave a decisive outcome. David you get the order from the president to kick Saddam Hussein and his troops out. A diplomatic solution, i received the order and i gave the order to norm and we were ready. David so there was a famous military maneuver. Rather thagoing directly toward the emy is you kind of went around. Powell yeah. David whose brilliant idea was that . Powell any infantry captain could have figured this out. It didnt take a general, and several generals have made claims david men of worth . Ok. Powell it was the only conflict ive ever been in or eve history about where i could say to the president of the United States, there is no question out the outcome. The iraqis have made several horrible mistakes. They put their line of soldiers right on the border with saudi arabia, cd they were stuck, thldnt move. Thairpower would not le move. And then they had 4 divisions along the coast, ; and they were very lig all x le move. These two forces in place and go around themthe lefhook, ; as its also referred to all x le move. But to my surprise, the night we launched the ground attack, after the air attacks for several weeks, and i was expecting that the marines, who were right opposite the iraqis, they were told, and i told them, attack, but dont get decisively engaged. t want to lose a bunch of marines; i just want you to freeze the iraqis in place. Same thing on the coast. Amphibious operation, but youre not going ashore. Just freeze them cause were gonna go around them all. But the marines, being marines, they did what ey were told, but some soldiers in the marines, some marines found ways to penetrate e fire barriers that theyd put in place, the fire trenches, the barb wires, the minefields, and cut a path right through the iraqi army facing us. And so, when that happened, military doctrine says exploit a success like that, so we told the marines, go, and they burst rht through the iraqi force and they were heading to kuwait ty before we even launched the left hook. David so ultimately the war is over, u decide to write a book about your life called my american journey. All of a sudden, when you were doing your book tour, people said, this man should be president of thenited states. Powell it had never occurred to me. And then suddenly the book came out and it caught media attention, and lots of people were coming to me saying, you know, you need to run. Well, t ever think of running, and i had no particular passion then to run, but i felt agation to consider the matter, and so i did. You know, im a serviceman and i try to do what i think is right. Most of the Republican Party did not want me to run as a republican; they even put out statements saying, we dont want him in the party. Daviause you were too moderate . Or powell yeah, probably, cause i was too moderate, yeah. Powell no. Why . David well, some people say its a great job. No . [audience laughter] powell prove it. Ha ha david so, when you decided not to run, a lot of people were disappointed, and you stayed in the private sector. Dpowell a lot of people were t to rudisappointedpeople but a lot of people were not disappointed i can assure you. And then george w. Was elected president , he calls you and says, ike you to be secretary of state. Powell i sensed he was the kind of republican that i wout to be, and so i was pleased to be able to go back into government and serve country once again. David ok, so youre secretary of state, and then 9 11 happens. Did you realize that you would have to be involved, and the government would have to be involved in some kind of military confrontation . Powellmewell, you cant let ing like that go bg without doing somethout it. And my job was to not immediately get involved in military matters, but to pull the International Community together, and it was a very rewarding experience. For the first time in natos history, they invoked what is called article 5h said if any member of the alliance is attacked, we were all attacked, so they were all on our side. David subsequently, we turned our attention to iraq, d president bush decidedat wen of iraq to go after Saddam Hussein. Powell what i said to the president before that was, nemr. President , you ed to understand that if you take out this government, you b nome responsible as t government. You become responsible for 27 million iraqis who will be standing there, looking at us. Ake on great responsibility, and you sure you understand that and you want to do it . And we were private when we were having this conversation, sand he said, well, whhe alternative . I said, the alternative is to have the u. N. Be in the first position. Theyre the ones whose resolutions have been violated, so lets have a diplomatic approach. David president bush said, i agree with your idea ofnvoing to the u. N. And cing them. Powell he did. Before taking military action, he wanted to present our case to the United Nations puicly. And so, on a thursday afternoon, i was in with him. He said, would you take the case next tuesday . David to the u. N. Powell yeah. David you made the case that saddam did have, or we thought he had, weapons of mass destruction. When it turned out he didnt. Powellright. David do you think, you know, you were embarrassed by that,. Sor do you think that the was embarrassed . Or do you think, had we known he didnt have weapons of mass dtruction, president bushu . Powell no, he would not have gone ahead, and i asked him that specific question when we were going t pough this. I said, msident, if Saddam Hussein can prove that he has no weapons of mass destruction, then you do not have a basis for war. You prepared to accept that, even if it means Saddam Hussein will stay in place . Hesitantly, he said, yes, i will accept that. So thats why i went forward, so i went out and spent at the cia with the intelligence communities and prepared the document that i would present, and every word in there was approved by the ci it was written by the cia. And so we went, i gave the presentation. It seemed to go well, i was confident that it went well, but then, within a few days or a couple of weeks, it started i was mortified, because even though the president had the same information, congress had used the same information, secretary rumsfeld, condoleezza rice, all of us were using the same information, but im the one who made the biggest presentation of it, so it all sort of fell on me. David well powell thats thats show business. Huh . David but todin hindsiy the invasion was a mistake . Powell id sanv the execution of theion was not done properly. We abandoned the army without any discussion back in washington, and then we abandoned something worse, the barty could not work in the new government. Those were two monstrously bad strategic decions, what we wanted the iraq armya. Now, right now, iraq has a democracy. Its trickbut its a. They have elections, and they are trying to restore order in their country. If they do all of that, i think its bad that we went about it in such a terrible way my hilble judgment; othersnot agree with me that if they come out through this difficult process right now as a democracy, no weapons of mass destruction and no Saddam Hussein, then i think you have to judge this differently than whats being judged now. Anvid so president bushhen i think yois reelected. Ge this in the second term, you retire as secretary of state and do things in the private sector. One of the things you did was to set up the colin powell scho at ccny. Tell us about the colin powell school. Powell when i left the state department, i came up here to see a little center, the colin poll center, that had been endowed by the rudin family, and i wanted to see what they were doing. Theyd been, you know and the answer was that they hadnt been doing much. It was more of a mini think tank. And i sat in the Conference Room here at ccny, and about and i saw incredible diversity among these 12 kids and i saion in their eyes. I saw them hungry for a better life. I knew that most of them came from families where nobody had yet graduated from college, and when it got back to me, i said, my god, this is me. This is me, 50 years ago. I got to be a part of this. Davi i know youre very prou the sc. If you look back on your extraordinary life in public service, did your parents live to see your success . Very proud of that, but my father was failing, i could see that, and then he died about a year and a half later, so he didnt see me make general, but mother was there when i was promoted to general, and she stood there in this line of people very proud. She was only about this tall, 53 or so, and there was the secretary of defense d the deputy secretary of defense and all these generals watching, and so she was very proud. She and my wife pinned my stars on, and from then on, in an almost yiddish expression, she would say to everybody, y son, the general. [scattered laughter] david youve seen many great leaders in your career political leaders, military leaders, obviously, youve beenny grea great leader yourself. R what is it, in your view, that makes a person a great leader . Well a person who understands that they are leading followers, a person who undds that they are there to put a group of human beings into work that has vue, that has a purpvee, and the leader will hem the inspiration needed to achieve that purpose, and the leader will make sure they have everything they need to get it done. What am i trying to do . Whats the purpose . Whats the vision and whats the purpose . Why are we here . Whatre we doing . And then get that down to the lowest person in the organization and then make sure theyave whatever they need, whether its diplomatic weapons or real weapons of war, and make sure that i took care of them and gave them every opportunity to be successful. So thats what leadership is all about inspiring foll theres a story about lincoln that ive always appreciated. In the early days of the civil war, he would go told soldiers home outside of the swampy area of washiton, up in the north part of the city, and was a telegraph office there. And one night a message comes in and the telegraph operator writes it down and. Mr. President , its not good. And he hands it to him and the message says, you ow, the confederateonhave just raided a uutpost by Fairfax Station and theyve captured a hundred horses and a Brigadier General. And lincolsays, oh, god, hate to lose a hundred hses. So the telegraph operator asked him, well, what the Brigadier General . And lincolns reply was, i can make a Brigadier General in 5 minutes, but its hard to replace a hundred horses. Soaybody gave that to me thei m. [laughter] and it has been by my desk ever since. To this day, its there. If you came to the house now, youd see it. It always reminded me that your job, powell, is to take care of the horses. Nt worry about being a Brigadier General. Take care of the horses, the soldiers, the employees, the clerks, the students, the faculty, whatever it takes to be successful in whatever it is youre trying to achieve. David colin, thank you for great career and thank you for what youve done for our country and for ccny, and thank you for a great conversation. Powell thu, david, for coming up to campus. David thank you. Thank you. Lause] announcer support for the pbs presentation of this program was provided by general motors. Man i see a future. Woman i see afuture. Woman i see a future filled with roads and no rage. Both we see a future. Man with zero crashes. Woman i see a future where fossil fuels. Man are a thing of the past. All we see a future with zero emissions. Man i see a future where traffic. All we see a future second man keeps perfect time. Third man where intelligence is always by design. Fourth man we see a futur woman zero congestion. Man we are. Second man we are. Both we are. All general motors. Man we are. Youre watching pbs. They liongside one of americas most beloved senators and mavericks. Now they are the keepers of his legacy. This week on firing line. Whater our differences, we are fellow americans, and please bieve me when i say no association has ever meant more to me than that. To the country, senator jo mccain was an american hero, a man who spent more than five years as aon pr of war in vietnam, and then 3 1 2 decades in the United States congress. Weve been spinning ourls whn too many important issues because we keep trying to find a way to win thout help from across the aisle. We are getting nothing done, my friends. Were getting nothing done well, to this weeks guest, widow cindy and daughter meghan, he was so much more. I love you so much. [ applause ] his daughter meghan is a