And Alexis Simendinger of the hill. Announcer celebrating 50 years. This is Washington Week. Funding is provided by their leadership is instinctive. They understand the challenges of today and research the technologies of tomorrow. Some call them veterans. We call them part of our team. Additional funding is provided by newmans own foundation, donating all profits from newmans own Food Products to charity and nourishing the common good. The ethics and excellence in journalism foundation. Koo and Patricia Yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. The corporation for public broadcasting, and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Once again, from washington, moderator, robert costa. Robert good evening. President trump did not hold an endoftheyear News Conference and thats been a president ial tradition. But he did sit this week for a revealing, an impromptu interview with the new york times, which ended up becoming that sort of reflective and combative moment, all while sitting in the bustling grill room of the Trump International golf club in florida. Speaking with reporter michael schmidt, and without any aides present, President Trump criticized attorney general Jeff Sessions for recusing himself from the russia probe and fired back at critics of the massive tax bill he signed last week. He also defended his decision to endorse roy moore in the alabama special election and during that 30minute interview, he repeated 16 times that there has been no collusion discovered by Robert Muellers investigation, even though the investigation, of course, is ongoing, and mueller has resisted making any public statements on that or other matters. What a conversation, what a year. Phil, youve covered trump for so long, weve seen him in these settings before. The president alone in his golf club. This is who he is, walking to the press, no aides present. He projected calm on the russia probe. Was that calm that came through in the times interview, a reflection of the reality inside the white house when it comes to the investigations . Philip its a reflection, bob, of where President Trump thinks the investigation is based on what his lawyers have been telling him. Hes expecting some sort of end to the investigation into him personally, into possible obstruction of justice or potential collusion and hes even been telling friends that he thinks hell get a public exoneration, a letter or statement from Robert Mueller. But that is not what those around the president think. Theres a heightened sense of concern within the white house and the administration and frankly, within the Republican Party here in washington, about this Mueller Probe, about the fact that Michael Flynn is cooperating now. Itsun its unclear where it will head. Robert when the president was talking about the justice department, he said he could do whatever he wanted. Was that a warning about disrupting the investigation . If you read the full interview, it doesnt come off as his trying to warn Robert Mueller about anything. But what hes suggesting is his view of the power of the presidency is that his executive authority over the department of justice is absolute and he has heard from other attorneys, friends who have advised him that thats a particular perspective that they would advocate he take. But the other suggestion, from looking back, weve seen reporting that the president has explored things like pardons, how vulnerable would my family members be if i wanted to pardon them, or, for instance, Michael Flynn. And he left that idea of pardons dangling not that many weeks ago where he was suggesting, well, were not going to talk about that right now. Well see, he said. So the idea of his disturbance with Jeff Sessions, comparing him in this discussion to eric holder, president obamas attorney general, was very interesting and revealing, i thought. Robert it was certainly revealing. That point about sessions, the president , shawna, talked about how he values loyalty, how loyaltys everything. And he said that he admired holder for working in a loyal way with president obama. What position does this put Jeff Sessions in moving forward . Shawna i think it puts attorney general sessions in a position where it clarifies how President Trump sees sessions and the department of justice as apparently something to protect him, not necessarily to protect the constitution or protect the law. And i do think attorney general sessions sees it as his job, historically, to protect the law and the constitution. And he once again puts Jeff Sessions in a very hard position of having to go out and defend the president when he needs to but also keeps saying the russia investigation has to be separate from me. It looks like hell never be able to get over the hump about recusing himself from the russia investigation. Robert amy, whats your read youre an expert reader of the political winds in this country. How does President Trumps base see this interview . His stance in this interview when it comes to his calm about the russia probe . Elements on the right are spoiling for a fight right now when it comes to mueller but the president seems to be resisting engaging on that front. Amy the real question is what is President Trumps base. I think there are two pieces of his base. Theres the base, the people that show up at his rallies and stand with the president , saying this is a witch hunt and fake news. Then theres the other piece of the republican base, the people that voted for donald trump in 2016 who werent crazy about him necessarily, who were maybe turned off by his temperament, by some of the statements he made on the campaign trail but they decided, either, one, he was better than Hillary Clinton they couldnt bring themselves to vote for her or, two, that he was going to shake things up and they wanted to see somebody from outside of washington who will come in and change the culture of washington. And what weve seen, really, is theres been a great deal of chaos, but its not clear that its the kind of chaos that they were looking for. So, when it comes to the fight over russia, the more interesting thing, i think, in the campaign, and all of us go on the campaign trail. Ive talked to a lot of candidates. Especially Democratic Candidates running for the house this year none of them are talking about russia. None of them are talking about impeachment. You dont hear it from voters, saying, i wonder what will happen with the russia investigation. It is sort of singarily singulan issue that outside of washington is not occupying a lot of time. Robert if thats the political reality, phil, you wrote recently that President Trump has passed a tax bill but can he reset his presidency . In his interview with the times, hes talking about bipartisanship. Talking about senator mansion, hes frustrated with the senator for not working with him on some issues. Could you see him strike a deal on immigration or healthcare . Philip potentially on immigration, theyre looking at a deal to protect the program that allows dreamers to stay in the country. There is an area where mansion from west virginia, donnelley from indiana, heidi hidecamp from north dakota, could join forces with trump to pass a bill. Shawna we also have the issue that democrats want to run against President Trump and if it got them a senator in the state of alabama, senatorelect doug jones, im not going to say theyre going to make a deal on immigration issues, but they dont want to give him too many more wins because they want to run against him. Amy except for the red state democrats, they need to show in the Upcoming Elections that theyre not just against donald trump. These are states that voted for donald trump by 20, 30 points or more so i think youll see folks that say, wed love to work with the president , but if this is what republicans will give me, this isnt good for the state. Because they didnt vote with the president on the tax bill. Midterm years are mostly about drawing sharp contrasts, not about deal cutting, unless theres an emergency. One of the foundational issues are what is it, there is no agreement about the finances behind it, right . The conservatives in the house do not want to spend theyre not objecting to the president s proposal to 200 billion leveraged against 800 billion and the president has changed his mind more than once since he first started talking about this. Robert a republican lawmaker once told me that republicans see infrastructure as tax credits and democrats as spending. I want to come back to immigration. The president s saying, ill do a border wall in exchange for a dhaka deal. Is that something democrats can buy . Or is the wall more of a political dream but not a political reality . It seems like a difficult thing to get through a democratic caucus. You could still get five or six democrats to go along with this but you need 60 votes and even with some. Red state democrats some of the red state democrats, the question is who does a better job of playing their hand and the challenge for the president and his workings with democrats is that they really dont know the sands seem to be shifting constantly with him. Hell come to one thing, right, nancy and chuck we got a deal, its all good, we agreed to it. And then 10 minutes later, its a whole new robert whats your read on the white house side on immigration . Philip i think the white house, trump would like to do something on dhaka but faces a lot of pressure from his base including his advisers like Steven Miller inside the white house who want to see him hold true to a tough line on immigration. I do think there are republican senators, there is movement on the hill. I want to do something. This is a losing issue for them in terms of growing the base of the Republican Party. While they didnt feel the need to do it before the end of the year, which many dreamers would have wanted, they too feel that march pull coming. Robert what about healthcare, alexis . The president talks about healthcare and a bipartisan plan but got rid of the individual mandate. Is this the same gap were talking about where the president says bipartisan this but democrats arent on board . Alexis healthcare is so complicated into 2018 because you have a Senate Majority leader whos allergic to the concept of dealing with healthcare again, right . You also have some senators who are talking about legislating on healthcare in a different way, to shore up the Affordable Care act, what to do to rescue the premiums and subsidies to support the Affordable Care act. President trump, however, did he talk about middle class tax relief . No, he talked about how proud he was that they gutted and hadnt talked enough about gutting the heart of obamacare and that it would crater after that. So and in the interview, he also talked about another concept that has to do with healthcare associations which the rule making has not been written but he was talking about, in a garbled way, his hopes that this might be a foundation for improvement in healthcare. So bipartisanship, i cant see where that is right now. Robert alexis has talked about how leader mcconnell in the senate doesnt want to go after healthcare. Speaker ryan in the house trying to go after federal benefits. Theres tensions within the congress, with the white house in congress. Their number one priority right now is to take the one big legislative accomplishment theyve had and try to sell it to the public. Its not particularly popular and even among republican voters, theyre not as excited about it as democrats are upset about it so theyll have to spend a good amount of time reselling because they did a terrible job in the runup to voting for this this tax bill. Theres an assumption by republicans that dont worry, once people start to get, in february, see in their paychecks that theyre getting money back, its all going to be good and well, but i think thats wishful thinking. Philip and a big handicap for trump on all of this next year is he does not have the American People behind him. Hes historically unpopular in his Approval Rating and has been all year long. Hes governed as a disruptor but also has been a divisive force and much of the country is against him and the problem in dealing with capitol hill is he does not stoke fear in the minds of republican lawmakers there. They dont feel theres a consequence in defying him. Robert what explains the calm in palm beach . Philip donald trump lives in his own reality. He thinks russia has nothing to do with him and will go away. He thinks the news media will help him get reelected in 2020, as he said in the interview. He had a new version of events in alabama and how he supported roy moore and explained that in a strange way. Shawna and as well keep seeing, he has the ability to, as you said, make his own world and he will say whatever it is to basically back that up and the thing about his base is that you asked a really interesting question about how does his base see this article. Much of his base isnt seeing that article. If theres something negative about him in it, that could be considered fake news. So its easy for him to create that world. Robert lets turn back to another issue. Because its not just president mar a lago, president on vacation its the russia issue and the domestic issues but i feel like this whole year we keep coming back to the russia issue. We talked a little bit at the beginning about that. This week we learned that the president s lawyers plan to portray former National Security adviser Michael Flynn as a liar if he turns on the president. And as you likely recall, flynn pled guilty to lying to the f. B. I. About his contact with russias ambassador. He was part of the trump transition leadership and worked in the white house for less than a month before he was forced to resign. Joining me now is Carol Leonnig, my colleague who broke the story for the post. Carol, the president keeps projecting calm when it comes to the federal investigation. What about his own legal team, especially regarding retired general Michael Flynn, the president s former National Security adviser, and his cooperation with the probe . Carol its a great question, bob. Both the president and his lawyers and lawyers for Senior Trump Administration officials, such as Jared Kushner and others in that sort of tier, have said theyre really confident that theres going to be no evidence of collusion, that Michael Flynn has nothing to say that will be incriminating about any of their clients. However, you cant be a very good lawyer if youre not planning for the possibility that there could be information or allegations that Michael Flynn might make that you arent aware that he has at his disposal. And you dont know everything that hes discussed with bob mueller. He had a Cooperation Agreement signed december 1 that was very favorable to Michael Flynn, a big red flag that whatever he told the prosecutor was very valuable to his investigation into russian meddling in the 2016 election. Robert carol, what about the possibility of a pardon for general flynn . His own brother brought up the topic on twitter, then deleted the tweet. Carol yes, his brother, joseph flynn, as im sure is true for many members of mike flynns extended family hes got a lot of siblings are really feeling a lot of frustration. They are disappointed that their brother is in this situation of being accused and ultimately pleading guilty to lying to the f. B. I. And very recently there have been a lot of revelations about specific f. B. I. Agents in this investigation who may have been appearing to be pro Hillary Clinton and antitrump. So there was this flavor in joseph flynns request for a pardon, saying, look, its about time you give him a pardon, look at the corruption surrounding the f. B. I. Now, he deleted that tweet. It was very strident and demanding in its tone and he replaced it minutes later with one that was more polite and courteous and making a polite request of the president , thanking him for his work. Robert youve been following the Mueller Investigation closely all year. What do we know did where exactly things stand inside the secretive probe . Where are they going with the investigation . What have you gleaned in your reporting . Carol as weve reported together, we looked deeply into the Mueller Probe about a month ago and could tell how far ahead they were on specific sort of second and thirdtier members of the Trump Campaign and trump transition and things they had done or appeared to have done that appeared criminal, and werent really related to the issue of collusion with russia. Now, we can see new wrinkles, new sort of waves on the water, if you will. Very recently, members of the r. N. C. Political Campaign Team have been questioned and asked for records by bob muellers team and that suggests to me t