audience laughter applause katy tur, welcome. Thanks for having me. So good to see you, congratulations on the book, its so great. Thank you i love this book, and the thing i love about it the most is that you had the good sense to write it, you were the earliest or among the earliest people on the Trump Campaign. You had the good sense to take notes, you figured out im gonna be witness to history, even if we didnt know whether hed get anywhere in this campaign. Yeah, i was there from the very beginning. Almost the very beginning. I was, the first rally i went to was june 30th of 2015, a few days after he announced his campaign. I was the First Network tv correspondent. Right, there were other people reporting on the Trump Campaign, but it was not something at the level or with the same commitment that maybe your network had made to placing you on the trail. No, we were the first ones to essentially take it seriously from almost the very beginning. We saw reporters come in and out, but for long swaths, long stretches of time, it was me and donald trump traveling around the country. I was the most familiar face in a crowd. It was me and other local reporters and we just had interaction after interaction after interaction where he got to know me and i got to know him through this coverage of this unlikely president ial campaign. So, when nobody was taking him seriously, they were calling him a rodeo clown, or a carnival barker, or a sideshow, i saw the thousands of people that would show up to these rallies, and i could see the reality of his support forming up close and personal birthing, being birthed. Yeah. Essentially. Early on, and before anybody wanted to recognize it, or before anybody was forced to take it seriously. And the best part of the story, i think, is your own revelation across chapters, this guy could actually win. Yeah. Right, its amazing. So i want to go back to the origin story here. Youre in london. Yeah. Youre a Foreign Correspondent for nbc news. The best job in the world. The best job in the world, and you come back to the states to, and good for you for doing this, its a Makeawish Foundation request. So youre back in the states and youre asked while here, hey, would you cover this . I was standing around the newsroom. I came back for the makeawish request, and i thought i would use it to also remind my bosses that i existed, because when things are quiet overseas, you can tend to be forgotten when youre in a bureau. So, i was getting a little bit of face time, and saying hey, remember me, i have all these stories that im pitching in indonesia and rome and can you please send me on them . Right. Instead, macys dropped donald trump, univision dropped donald trump, nbc dropped Donald TrumpsMiss Universe pageant, and they said you know we need somebody to cover this story tonight for nightly news. Yeah. And one of the nightly news producers, whos a good friend of mine volunteered me. Katy turs just standing around, she can do it. Take her, right. And so i did, and i did a couple more stories, but the next thing i knew i was getting a call from the president of nbc news saying were gonna put you on this campaign full time. And then i was being assured dont worry, it will just be six weeks. This is an actual, this is an actual quote, right . Yeah. From an nbc news executive, dont worry, itll be six weeks tops. And then youll go back to london. Youll go back to london. And hey, if he wins, youll go the white house. Right. To which he laughed, and the elevator doors closed. Closed, great seeing you. And he left, it was cinematic. Right, yeah. So you never actually go back, in fact you were waiting to go on a vacation in italy with your boyfriend, i was supposed to go on this sicilian vacation. Ive never been to sicily, right. I still have never been to sicily. The least they could have done was sent you to sicily after the campaign, right . Exactly i had, that phone call was very sad and i felt terrible because i ben wall was like what do you mean youre not coming, we leave in 10 days. Yeah. And it was one of those moments that i realized, holy cow, i must really love my job. Yeah. chuckle well, thats okay. Or i must be psychotic. Or both and thats okay, by the way too. So, the sequence here at the very beginning is, you end up in New Hampshire with trump. Yeah. And you watch him speak, he recognized you out in the crowd. Now, youve not actually had any face time with him at this point at all, right . Ive never shared the same air as him before. Right. Never been in the same physical vicinity. Yeah. Id never walked in to trump tower in my life, i mean id lived in new york for 10 years. Yeah. Never passed through those golden doors. audience laughs and seen that waterfall. Right. Beautiful waterfall. High class, yes. And so im standing and its, unlike the rallies that wed become used to during the campaign, it was just a couple hundred people standing around a back yard pool, it was more of a curiosity than anything else. Right. And donald trump was on stage, and hes saying all sorts of things, theres no real thread to his speech, the people were entertained by it, but it doesnt seem like a serious political conversation by any stretch. Hes not really talking about policy, save for this idea that immigration is a real problem and mexico is sending rapists across the border, we need to do something to stop it, oh and by the way i get the best Standing Ovations of anybody, oh by the way the media is terrible. And katy tur, you havent even looked up at me once. I remember thinking, how in the world does he know my name . audience laughter and how, i was standing and he pointed at me, he saw me in the crowd, and it was the very beginning of basically the place looking at me and laughing or booing, and him finding a way to use the media as a foil for his candidacy. Right, amazing. And so you hope at that point, hope with a small h, to get an interview with him, a pullaside, they call it. So i went and i talked to hope, his press person. To hope with a big h, who is hope hicks, now the Communications Director in the white house. Yeah, yeah. And say, can i have a pullaside with mr. Trump, and she said lets see what we can do and ultimately he speeds off. No, she says sure, we can get on right after he gets off stage, which was just a step and a repeat behind the pool. Right. And the next thing i see is him getting in his suv. Speeding off. And speeding off, but she called me a few minutes later and said were so sorry we had to leave. Right. Mr. Trump thinks you do a very good job, and he would love to sit down with you soon. Yeah, hes showing you how much he thinks that, right . Well i yelled, when he called me out i yelled, i yelled at him across the pool, i said im tweeting what youre saying. Oh, thats why he decided that he likes twitter i, i guess, i guess. Right, you mentioned tweeting, he thinks youre great now. And that was, i think that was the last time he liked my twitter. audience laughing very serious. I used to get emails from hope saying, mr. Trump thinks your tweets are disgraceful. Not nice audience chuckling and im like what . What . He has time to be looking at my twitter feed. Yes. So you go ahead to july 8th. Yeah. You finally get an interview with trump at trump tower. Yeah. This is your first big interview. Yeah. And this really is a defining moment, is it not . Both in this book and for your relationship. Absolutely, and for my career, frankly. And my life, really. I walked into trump tower on july 8th, i sat down, i had spent the evening before just studying donald trump, finding out everything i could possibly know about him. That morning i got a pep talk from chuck todd, whos the moderator of meet the press. He gave me a couple of suggestions for questions, and he gave me a really good reminder. Remember, youre with nbc, donald trump is going to go after you. And i said, i presume so, this is a man whos famous for fighting with people across the board room table, and telling them that theyre fired. Of course he is. With that hand movement. But hes in a relationship with nbc, why would he be so. Hes not in a relationship with nbc because we had just dropped his pageant. Right, and so that was the issue, the issue really had been but was no longer. That was the issue, that was the issue. He felt like he was being mistreated by the company that he had such a longstanding relationship with. So, of course hes taking it out on you, thats how its gonna go. Probably. I think he walked into it thinking that it was gonna be a different sort of interview, that it would be much fluffier. Maybe he thought it would be more of an entertainment style interview, which is i think probably is what he was accustomed to coming from. Yeah. I guess from nbc. Before he had ran for president. Right. cause he was on the apprentice. Part of the Network Entertainment schedule. Yeah, exactly. Who knows, im not sure what he thought, but i know that when i sat down and i had my research in front of me, pew statistics that contradicted what he was claiming about immigration and crime. He didnt want to hear it. I mean the second it got out of my mouth, he told me i was naive, and he tried to knock me off my game. And i remember thinking this is just donald trump, but its part of his act, its part of who he is. Dont worry about it. Just smile. And you can see in my face that entire interview, im smiling the entire time. Right. And he is not, he is very tense and very angry. Right. He got me to stumble a couple of times, and i remember i closed my eyes, i kept smiling and then i continued. I didnt think anything of it. And when the interview was over, i got up to shake his hand presuming that we were good, everything was copasetic, and that he would go on his way and i would go on mine. And instead, he starts berating me. He says that we are going to deceptively edit the interview, you better air that entire thing in full. We have cameras in here and if you dont, we will release the full footage. And we will expose you. And i remember thinking what are you talking about . Yeah. Expose me . What should i be worried about . And i dont see any other cameras, and if there was a security camera, how in the world would you get audio from this . And then he started saying, you will never be president , you can never be president. loud audience laughter really . Yeah i mean, its funny now, but at the time it was. It had to have been bizarro world, right . It was bizarre, but it was also a bit intimidating. Right, sure. Why was this man screaming at me, and why is he so angry, and did i do something wrong . Did i misremember something that i said . Yeah. Was i incorrect about something, was i offensive . Hope hicks said i spoke, i was not polite, i was rude in the questions that i had. Hes a president ial candidate, i should have more respect for him and i remember thinking this is the guy that called mexicans coming across the border rapists. I mean, yeah. What are you talking about . Did you leave your respect at home that day . No i mean thats exactly it, right . It wasnt like that, and so i. But of course, its journalism. I mean, you did journalism and where you should be celebrated and where i celebrate you in this book, having read this book, is you have nerves of steel. There are instances all throughout this book where other people would have withered, and you didnt. And what got you noticed by nbc and by the rest of the country was your not backing down on that day. Right . I have rhinoceros skin. chatter audience applause and i can give a lot of criticism of the media during the campaign, you and i could debate how much of it is legitimate yeah. But i want to give you credit, because i think that was an important thing. So you get through that. Yeah. And the network sees it, and they think, okay. They think its newsy from top to bottom. Right. Lets play this thing in full, and it landed, and people really were noticing not only the interview but donald trump as a candidate and me as a foil i guess. Yeah. A reporter and a Person Holding him up, holding up his statements and aligning them with reality. Again, if you care about this stuff at the level of detail that we do, you know that puts and takes of a Campaign Like this one. Yeah. You refer, at some point in this book early on, to a campaign manager, and you describe him in an unflattering way physically, and then im like whos this, and its Corey Lewandowski. And its in the early part of the campaign, when Corey Lewandowski was running it, before manafort shows up, right before bannon shows up. I mean, this campaign really changed, it went from being amateur hour to something not like amateur hour. Yeah, Corey Lewandowski was there from the beginning and he had a really antagonistic relationship with the press. Right. He wasnt, he wasnt polite, he wasnt friendly, he wasnt professional. This is the guy who allegedly had grabbed Michelle Fields arm . No, no, it wasnt allegedly, he did. It happened, yeah. Yeah, he did. He was arrested for it. Right. He lied about it, multiple times. Yeah. And in the process of doing so, he impugned a reporter and called her credibility into question. Right. And so did donald trump, frankly, from stage. And from, in interviews, i asked donald trump about it after a debate, i think it was in miami, it might have been here in texas. Forgive my memory, im forgetting a couple things. Yeah. In the book its lined up. laughter believe me, i had a fact checker make sure everything was right. Oh, im sure. Believe me. audience laughter oh, i well, i mean i have no doubt and of course thats something that we havent talked about yet. No, but hold on. Yeah. So, i was asking about Corey Lewandowski. Yeah. And i said if it comes out that this is true yeah. That he did grab Michelle Fields and those bruises are in fact from his hand and she is not lying, will there be consequences . And coreys standing right behind him, believe me it was a very awkward conversation to have. I can imagine, right, yeah. And he said what do you mean . What are you gonna do if it turns out its not true, are you going to apologize to him . And i said i will correct the reporting, i will report what we have found. But its not an apology, shes making these claims, theyre investigating it. What are you going to do . He walked away, he didnt have an answer for that. Right. And so it was found on, i found out later, on camera. On camera. The security cameras at his own property which he could have reviewed. Yeah. That Corey Lewandowski did do what Michelle Fields had claimed he did. Right. He did yank her back. And there werent any consequences for him, he stayed on the campaign. And, if you believe people today, although hes not inside the administration, he continues to be a confidante of the president s. Donald trump likes him because he would say let trump be trump. Yeah. He would never tell him what to do, and i think its become abundantly clear from anybody who watches his presidency that he does not like being told what to do. Handled. Handled at all, and thats part of the reason why he chafed up against paul manafort, who was trying to handle him, there were a number of other factors involved, obviously. Right. But he was trying to get him on message, he was trying to get him to pull away from his more controversial stances, like the muslim ban, and donald trump just felt like he didnt want, he did not want to be told what he should do or what he should say. You mentioned fact checking. Again, were process people in journalism as much as substance people and i like that fact that in this book you alternate back and forth between moments on the campaign and election day. The chronology is kind of mixed up. It is. It confuses you the way your brain got confused on the campaign. laughter well you know, its fun though because, you know spoiler at the end of this book trump wins, right . audience laughter i dont want to ruin it for everybody. Does the titanic sink as well . laughter but, knowing that, you actually are allowing us to look ahead to whats, its kind of great. Also, you mention all the notes you had taken. You did not, you took notes during the campaign, but you had to go rely on the accounts that other people had collected for you to reconstruct the story. Reconstruct certain scenes yeah. That i didnt have copious notes for, like what was going on in the hours before the muslim ban was announced . Right, yeah. What we ordered for lunch at a great place in south carolina. And how we got, when we found out the news, and how we got from the hotel to the venue in the process. Just like the nitty gritty details of what it was like day to day. But important stuff if youre telling a narrative, right . Exactly. Its important. Important information. And you said fact checking. Fact checking. I am assured by you that you fact checked this book. Oh, i fact checked the book, i was neurotic about it. I had, i mean i had. Well hes litigious, right . I mean. Hes litigious but im also, i just want to be right. Yeah. I mean, regardless of whether or not hes gonna sue me, i want to make sure that im right. Yeah. And i had a stack of reporting notes, it was literally this high, both the notes. cause we, i mean, we took, we sent thousands and thousands of emails, just about what was happening day to day on the campaign. Everything that donald trump said in public, or to me, from june of 2015 to november of 2016 i have a log of. Literally, every word that he spoke, which is remarkable. Yeah. cause there are a lot of words. audience laughing actually, its the same like 10 words, just mixed up in different ways. audience laughing loudly tremendous, one. Great, big, beautiful, wonderful, believe me. laughter were up to seven, okay yeah. So, uh. Mexico. Mexico, would be one. Wall. Surely. chuckles surely. Let me ask you about journalism generally. I said something about this earlier, that the media gets criticized or has been criticized for its role in this campaign. Do we in this business have anything to answer for . About 2016 . I think we need to go back and consider how we covered it and consider what we couldve done better. We didnt talk about policy enough, i think. Thats partially, it has a lot to do with the fact that donald trump didnt have a lot of policy, it just wasnt top of the conversation because he was, he was attacking so many people it was hard to keep track of. Do you think that was a deliberate decision on his part, if we dont talk about policy i can continue to distract people with this other stuff . Im not sure if it was