applause bob schieffer, welcome. Thank you very much. So good to be with you again. Well, you and i have been friends for a long time. Long time. Its nice to see an old friend. Watching what youve done down here and the role that the Texas Tribune is playing in journalism right now. Youre the template right now youre the template right now for what needs to be done. Well, i appreciate you saying that very much. This book is a terrific tale of tales, right . Its a collection of tales of people who are attempting to solve this problem that youve identified, correctly. The world is changing, the Media Business is changing, the Consumption Habits of the public have changed. What did you find in the course of your investigations, your conversations . Well, whats happened here, walt mossberg, the Technology Writer who now is kind of the king of the internet, with the reports on technology and whats happening. He once said that when youre in the middle of something, you sometimes dont realize it. And we are in the midst, right now, of a revolution in Communications Technology that is having as great an impact on our culture as the invention, i argue, of the Printing Press had on the europe of that day. And we think about all the good things that the Printing Press did, it improved literacy all across europe. We had the reformation, the counterreformation, we sometimes forget we also had 30 years of religious wars. Yeah, there were bad things about it too. Of course, a certain equilibrium was reached in europe. And were not quite to the middle of this yet. Were still kind of in the first trimester of this and were all trying to sort it out, were bombarded with all this news from every source, 24 7. Were bombarded with all this news from every source, 24 7. Its difficult to separate the true from the false and the in between. And the in between. We have access to more information than any humans whove ever lived on earth, but we have to ask ourself, are we wiser . Or are we simply overwhelmed with so much information . And how do we process it . What do we do with it . We cant process it. And how do we sort through the credible and the not credible . Weve had a conversation, the president has teed this up for us, the fake news and the legitimacy of the information that the media is providing. Hes not happy with a lot of the work that we do, well come to that. But the fact is that you have to sort through stuff today to decide whats true, whats false, whats real and whats fake. And the Communications Channels have made that harder and not easier. Yes. And because of this, it has thrown local newspapers across this country into a real crisis. Evan, we have lost a 126 newspapers in this country in the last 12 years. We have now, i think it is one reporter in five, i believe, now lives in either new york, washington or los angeles. Used to be one in eight, right . Yes, and that was in 2004. So, the concentration of reporters on the coasts, and we all hate coastal elites here in the middle of the country, right . The concentration of reporters on the coasts has, highlights the fact that theres many fewer reporters in states and in state houses. Yeah. Yeah. And the impact thats had on our politics. No institutions been more impacted by this revolution in communications than journalism and our politics. And you get out in the middle of the country, its not a question of biased news, its a question of no news. No news, its media desert after media desert. The local newspaper has gone away. A lot of people in the lower economic groups cant afford the news apps on their phone. You and i get the New York Times, the Washington Post, the wall street journal on our phone. Cnn, cbs and all of that. Cnn, cbs and all of that. If youre on a limited income, you cant afford that. Or, frankly, if youre a coin cutter, you cut off access, in many cases, to so much dont have cable anymore. Dont have channels. So, basically, a lot of people in this country, the only news theyre getting is what they get on social media, or what their browser just sort of kicks up by accident. And social media is great for keeping up with your neighbors, for knowing where your kids are, many things. But we have to remember, what you see on facebook has not gone through the vetting process that one would normally get from a traditional news source like cbs or the the Texas Tribune or something. Starting with the fact that, in my organization, we dont broadcast something unless weve checked it out and think its true. Same with you, the same with our traditional news sources. Look, stuff happens, pops up on the internet now, on the social media, that sometimes is just simply made up out of whole cloth. After this awful thing that happened out in las vegas, within a half hour, there were reports on the internet that the shooter had recently converted to islam. And i read this story and i thought, can that be right . And i called cbs and i said this, they said, no, no. The police, its made up out of whole cloth. Well, there were reports that he was a liberal democrat, that he was a big Rachel Maddow fan, i remember that, right . That was the biggest sin. The worst pejorative in the world, oh my god, he likes Rachel Maddow. bob laughs what youre saying is undeniably true, and i want to take it to the next place, which is that the disappearance, because really, this book could have been called, finding the truth in todays disappearance of news. As much as deluge, i think theres both the deluge on the one hand and the disappearance on the other. But extend this out, in the absence of reporters in these state capitals, you have essentially legislators gone wild, right . Youve got people who are unsupervised, unchaperoned, who are able to do whatever they want, theyre sneaking out of the back of state capitals with washing machines strapped to their hips, right . And theres nobody watching them. And when nobody watches them, the public suffers. Well, thats right, and its even, to the local level, its even, even those who dont send a reporter to cover their delegation in the state capital. Were now seeing, at the local level, sometimes where sometimes where newspapers no longer have the personnel to have a city hall reporter. They have someone that goes in and goes to the city council meeting, but not somebody who goes there everyday. Heres a little stat that i ran across doing my research. In 21 of the 50 states now, there is now a single newspaper in 21 of the 50 states now, there is now a single newspaper that has a washington correspondent. So, theyre sending, theyre electing their congressmen, sending them to washington. No accountability, no coverage, right . Thats it. No connect back. If he send a newsletter back they find out what hes up to. Bob, it feels to me that two, it feels to me that two, actually, let me stay with that for a second. Thats interesting, because really whats happened is, a lot of people in Elective Office have said well, well just start our own media. Well create our own ways of communicating, well cut out the traditional media that ask us those pesty questions, well just send newsletters, or well communicate directly on social media. Or well start News Organizations. Really, were having to compete, the real fake news in this conversation may be these fake News Organizations masquerading as real. Well, i think thats thats also happened too. I think thats absolutely correct, and some of those fake News Organizations are doing it wrong by design, theyre propaganda outlets for both domestic and foreign entities. For both domestic and foreign entities. We do a whole show on the foreign part of this, so we dont need to do it here. Theres no question that the russians were meddling around and trying to send fake news into this country during the election. Joe nye, who is a National Security expert at harvard, did a little piece on it and he, people were saying, the controversy about, was trump colluding with the russians and all of that. And he said, i dont know. He said, i know what the russians are doing, and he said, my sense is they were just simply trying to create questions and destroy the credibility of our institutions, our government, our press and all of that. And he said, and they got trump as a bonus, he said, im not sure thats what they meant. But the conversation after the election, though, has continued. The fact is, the work that they did was not just supposed to end on election day, or maybe if it was intended, its actually had a longer tail than that. They actually bought ads on facebook. Congress is hopefully gonna get to the bottom of all this. And now we know. And only now are we knowing about that. It feels, bob, to me like two things materially have changed in the last decade. One is that the power used to be with the people who created content, now power is with the people who consume content. The democratizing of this has definitely had an impact, whether its good or bad. My boss, david rhodes, the boss at cbs, said, we used to hire all these people to go out and find the news, he said, now we have to hire an equal number of people just to sort out the news thats coming in to us to determine if its true, false, or whether we need to follow up on that. And we have to bend more in the direction of consumers than ever. Consumers now tell us what they want, when they want it, in what form, on what platform. And its made the job of, not that im complaining about this at all, certainly we wouldnt complain, but its definitely made the job more difficult or more complex than what we used to have, right . I was at a conference out in colorado earlier this summer and jeff bezos was there. Amazon, right. And Washington Post who heads amazon and now owns the Washington Post and is making it into a great newspaper, let me just say that. Fully agree. We can talk about that later. But he said, even in a competitive business, like journalism, which theres nothing more competitive, he said, we need to spend less time worrying about our competitors and more time worrying about our customers. And that really went home to me. I think a lot of what were seeing right now in our culture are, a lot of organizations, other than News Organizations, theyre worrying about, how can i cut prices so i can sell it for a lower price than my competitor . When they should be thinking about, what does our customer want . What does our customer need . Focus on the product and not the price. And i think thats a good lesson for all of us. So, the first change i mentioned, i think the second change, related but separate, is that the default setting used to be, as recently as 10 years ago, that people trusted the media. And now the default setting is that people dont. When we wake up in the morning and go into work, you or me, we think about the world, they distrust us. Thats the default, and we have to somehow get around that. And it used to be that we assumed people believed everything we said, and i just think, again, the nature of doing this work changes by necessity as a result of that. Absolutely. And thats why we have to be so transparent. Thats why we have to help the people were trying to reach understand how we do our work. One of the reasons i wrote this book, somebody said, is this a defense of journalism . I said, no, its not. But what i hope it is, is an introduction to journalism for a lot of people who are not journalists. And so i did interviews with the folks at the Washington Post. I did an interview with you. I tried to present as many different i tried to present as many different reports on people who gather and report this news. Lets be clear, this is not a narrative book so much as that it is a collection of your reflections on conversations you had for a podcast that you and Andrew Schwartz do out of csis in washington about the state of the media. And you did many more conversations than are reflected in this, youve done many more than are reflected in this book, but this is really a collection of stories and a collection of News Organizations and how theyre wrestling with the questions that were talking about today. I mean, the Washington Post and now the New York Times are setting, are setting, are making the new template. They have literally reinvented themselves. Theyre no longer newspaper companies, theyre media companies. The Washington Post is now churning out news on about five different platforms. And where the circulation of the paper Washington Post is about 400,000, theyre now reaching some months 70 or 80 Million People with their digital product. Digitally. And theyre becoming an International Newspaper like the New York Times is. And that was always the difference, the Washington Post was always basically a local paper. Even though it was a national paper, it was basically a local paper. And theyve completely transformed the perception of them out in the world. I wrote a oped piece for them during the president ial debates on the role of a moderator. And it was very interesting. I wrote the piece, i sent it to them. It showed up, they printed it on their website and it stayed up there for a couple of days and then they took it down. And so i call ruth marcus, who is the assistant editorial page editor, i said, is that it . Oh no, she says, weve got a really nice space reserved for you on the oped page in the sunday paper, itll be in the sunday paper. The next day, somebody from the Washington Post video department, the Washington Post now has a video department. And they called and said, by the way, said, we pulled a few soundbites from several debates that youve moderated, why dont you come in and just comment, well play and you comment on what they meant and so forth . And i said, fine. I think before it was over, that one story that i wrote appeared on five different platforms. Thats how they do it. And thats the way to make it work now. And the Washington Post hired 60 reporters this year. As far as i know, theyre the only News Organization well, every time you buy toilet paper through amazon, you are funding journalism. bob laughs just think of it that way. Its okay. But its great. But its great. The times is coming along too. And they also have had massive success, theres been a trump bump for both papers. Theyve had massive success on the digital subscription side, more people reading the paper at more levels and more places who never read it before. Who never could get access to the times before. And were doing the same thing at cbs news, as you know, because weve created cbsn, which is a 24hour news service. If you turn it on, it looks like cnn or, but basically you can only get it on your phone, or your computer, or your computer, or your laptop. Now, the post is an interesting example, you mentioned earlier how impressed you are with the work of the post, of course i am too, i think everybody understands the post has really got great game right now. Something that i wanna talk about related to what we were discussing earlier is the degree to which the post is working to demonstrate why they should be trustworthy to their readers. They have really gone out of their way, in the way that they present their journalism, to not only give us the conclusions that theyve discovered in the course of their reporting, but also theyre showing us their work. The way a fourthgrader in math class might be asked show your work. By his teacher, the post now routinely is transparent about what led up to the work, right . Yeah. And that is helpful if youre a skeptical reader, talk a little bit about its almost, we have a lot of fun with it. They now will say, theyll put a headline on the second paragraph, itll say, according to 17 sources. audience laughs you dont just say, sources say. According to 17, and so we were, in our newsroom, as newsrooms always do, we put the number up, 17, and then when they got past that, we wiped it out and said, today they quoted 18 sources. Its amazing. But they do. And that is, and i talked to them at the post and the times, the times is doing the same thing now. And i said, why do you do that . , and said, we want people to know this is just, were always accused when someone, you do a story, its uncomplimentary, they come back and say, yeah, youre quoting one source. kid in the mail room. And said, we want people to know we have talked to more than one person. I think its a very effective thing. This is also a moment, bob, when process is as interesting to civilians, who are consuming journalism as substance. The people out in the world who are consumers of media are more sophisticated. They understand that theres a sausage making as well as a sausage. And a great example of this, that you and i talked about, actually, on the podcast, and is in the book, is David Fahrenthold. The pulitzer prizewinning reporter of the Washington Post who was tweeting out pictures of his big chief tablet as he was chronicling the supposed giving by the Trump Foundation over the course of the campaign, right . I reprinted that David Fahrenthold story that he wrote in the Washington Post about how he went after that charity. That story that he won the pulitzer for. And it was just amazing, it was the best example ive seen of how we can use the new technology. Of how we can use the new technology. He would actually tweet out, have you seen this picture he was crowdsourcing. He was crowdsourcing stuff, right. Of donald trump . And he would locate this stuff. Of donald trump . And he would locate this stuff. I think hes one of the best reporters that ive come across, i think. As i told you, some people have the virgin of the guadalupe in their house, i have a picture of David Fahrenthold, you know what i mean . bob laughs i see him as kind of the great hero of this era because hes demonstrated how you can be both a traditional reporter, an investigative reporter, but also access the technology to advance the cause of journalism. Its not either or, it can be both and. Thats what i want young reporters to understand, thats what journalism is really about. David fahrenthold called 320 charities David Fahrenthold called 320 charities in the course of this investigation and said, hey, have you ever gotten any money from donald trump . I mean, 320. How would you have liked it, he was given this assignment in the elevator at the Washington Post. Martin baron, the editor, said, you know, why dont you just check in to Donald Trumps charities. Find out if hes really contributed all this money. How would you like to get that assignment. How would you like to get that assignment. He took to it with incredible enthusiasm. Well, my god. Its amazing. And the way he did it is really an example of how reporting works, and how it can be so effective. Well, the stories in this book are so hopeful, from my perspective, as somebody who loves journalism and wants the next generation to see not only a way in, but a reason to pursue this as a career. I think this book is, its immensely hopeful. Ive resisted as much as i can asking you about trump, ive gotta now pivot to, you know. Hes the president. He is. He is. In your lifetime, would you have imagined no. audience laughs i dont even need to go on, thats good. bob laughs i dont even need to go on, thats good. bob laughs havent i answered that question so many times on television. I said ive never seen anything like it so many times on television. But its true. It became a drinking game where younger people at cbs, every time old bob is, ive never seen. imitates swallowing you have a bunch of drunk journalists pretty fast. Luckily, we had some designated drivers. Drivers at cbs, right. Thats all we had. And its not only about the way trump views and bats back and forth with the media, trump views and bats back and forth with the media, but its more just the general affect in this position of his presidency, right . Whether its disruption or chaos, pick your preferred word. You know, i used to, because i covered all the big beats in washington and people used to say to me, whats your favorite beat . I bet its the white house . I said, no, its great. But, i said, the thing about the white house is everybody works for the same person, so you dont get much news there. I said, what i always loved was capitol hill, because here youve got 535 independent contractors and thats where you find news. You go and ask this guy, what this guy said, and the next thing you know youve got a story. Well, thats no longer apt. Because now, there are more factions, or as many factions in the white house as there are on capitol hill. Ive never seen anything like it. They all, various agendas, they all talk, they all, various agendas, they all talk, they dont mind undermining each other. Its just extraordinary. Its just extraordinary. And a lot of reporters, i remember when this guy scaramucci, and a lot of reporters, i remember when this guy scaramucci, remember that guy . Right, seriously right. He will be but a footnote in the history books, but boy, for those 10 days it was awesome, wasnt it . Well, ill tell you. I called up one of our folks that covers the white house and i said, what do you think . She said, oh, im really sad. He was a great, i could always get through to him. I could always. Isnt that the irony . He may not make america great, but hes sure making journalism great, isnt he . Well, ill tell you, its a much different deal here, and its created an opportunity, in all seriousness, to tie this back to the conversation we were having, it is created an opportunity for journalism to be its best self. Yeah. Has it not . Well, look at watergate. We had some great Investigative Journalism that came out of watergate. Enrollment in Journalism Schools went up, everybody wanted to be woodward and bernstein. Up until that point, the miss americas wanted to help the needy and the sick, and after that they all wanted to be investigative reporters. So in a way so in a way big stories make for good reporters. And theres no bigger story than this, thats for sure. In the couple of minutes we have left i wanna ask you about broadcast journalism specifically. This has obviously been your playground for many, many years. I noticed that this week, the cbs evening news named a new permanent anchor. Jeff glor was just named. I have to tell you, bob, that when i saw that news story, i thought, theres still a cbs evening news. It is easy to forget that theres still a nightly news broadcast. Generations previous got their news from those newscasts. Those newscasts and the anchors were major figures in journalism. What do you make of how all this has changed . Because the changes we talked about at the beginning of this conversation have inevitably taken a little bit of the shine off of the nightly newscasts. Well, thats right. When i came to work at cbs in the days of Walter Cronkite the evening news drove the boat. Because thats where the commercials were, thats where the largest audience was. The evening news programs still draw five or six Million People, which is a pretty good crowd. In fact, on any given day, more than those cable hosts at night, who get all the attention, right . And as long as that continues to be the case, were gonna have an evening news. Let me just say a word about jeff glor. Hes a fine, young reporter. I am a great believer in promoting from within. Somehow going out and getting people from outside the organization and bringing them in, somehow that doesnt always work out. Always hire from. Always hire from. Thats the way i like it. Thats the way i like it. This is really something less about him, than it is more about it. Which is to say, is, the institution of the 22minute, after you take the commercials out, evening newscast, is that an institution healthy enough that it will persist . I think it is. I think it is, its certainly at cbs for a while. I mean, for a while, i dont mean for a couple of weeks. But the other part is that the morning shows, now, are the ones that are generating most of the revenue. Even though their audiences are not as large as the evening news, but theyre two hours long. Or in the case of the today show, i think the today show is, like, 12 hours. Something like that. But the great advantage there is, thats really the last time period where you have a opportunity to tell people something they may not have known, because it may have happened overnight. Overnight, yeah. And so thats a big advantage there, so well continue to put more and more emphasis. And just this little commercial for the cbs this morning. This is the best morning show we have ever had. With the best composition of hosts, right . Yes. And this is a remarkable thing in television, they found three people who actually like each other. audience laughs over the years, thats not been the case on these morning shows, right . No. It very seldom happens. Its been high drama. And theyre all really good interviewers, and they all bring a certain talent to it. And we have great hopes, i would not be surprised, and i almost have to say it aloud, we may be number one in the mornings before this is over. Before this is all over. And were gonna make a real run at that. You know what i love . You said earlier that weve been friends for a long time, we have. You seem materially no different to me in terms of your energy, your enthusiasm for this stuff as you did when i first met you. Really . Well, thats great. But i mean it. And its another hopeful sign for me to take away. Youre still blowing and going, as they say. I just love this. This is why i always tell young people, journalism is not for everybody. For one thing, you have to work on christmas a lot, especially in the beginning. evan laughs for me, i cant think of anything i could have done that i would just have had more fun. This year, i interviewed willie nelson. And ive interviewed thousands of people over the years, but it was one of the most fun things ive ever done. And just totally different. What other kind of job do you have where you have an opportunity to do things like that. Theres nothing more fun in this world. We both know that. Thats what im thinking. Bob, thank you for everything. Thank you, evan. Good to see you, and congratulations on you success. Bob schieffer. audience applauds and cheers [man] wed love to have you join us in the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. There was this story going around that the white house is gonna bring in some new advisers, but we didnt know where they were coming from. So when i got up, i shook hands with the president , i said, mister president , these advisers, will they be inhouse advisers . Oh no, he said, theyll be outhouse advisers. [woman] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by claire and carl stuart. And by claire and carl stuart. mysterious music mysterious music steves while the coast is croatias main draw, some of its best attractions are inland. Were delving to the croaan healand. One of europes top natural wonders is Plitvice Lakes national park. Imaginniagara falls sliced and diced and sprinkled over a vast and heavily forested canyon. Its a lush and unforgettable valley of 16 terraced lakes laced together by waterfalls and miles of pleasant plank walks. Boats glide visitors into the heart of the park. Countless cascades and water thats strangely clear yet full of vibrant colors make plitvice a misty natural wonderland. Fish seem to know theres not a hook for miles. Carefully maintained trails and boardwalks let you get intimate with the wonder of the place. 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