Separate changes to the rwanda bill suggested by peers in the house of lords. And this, as downing street says , the initial downing street says, the initial cohort of people who should be going to rwanda is being contacted, with the Prime Minister determined to see minister still determined to see the first plane leaving later this spring. Rishi sunak says hes committed to getting flights off the ground. Flights off the ground. Its important that we get the rwanda scheme up and running because we need have because we need to have a deterrent. We need to make it clear if you come here clear that if you come here illegally, able clear that if you come here ill� stay y, able clear that if you come here ill� stay and able clear that if you come here ill� stay and we able clear that if you come here ill� stay and we will able clear that if you come here ill� stay and we will be able le clear that if you come here ill� stay and we will be able to to stay and we will be able to remove that is the only way remove you. That is the only way to properly the issue of to properly solve the issue of illegal migration. Now weve made numbers made good progress, both numbers were down by a third last year, so that shows that our plan is working. Order to finish working. But in order to finish the need the rwanda the job, we need the rwanda scheme through. We are getting scheme through. We are getting it parliament. Everyone it through parliament. Everyone is including is trying to block us, including the party, because they the labour party, because they do a plan tackle do not have a plan to tackle this we i am this problem. We do. I am determined to see it through, get deterrent running get the deterrent up and running as quickly possible. Get the deterrent up and running as � well,y possible. Get the deterrent up and running as � well, the possible. Get the deterrent up and running as � well, the shadowe. Get the deterrent up and running as � well, the shadow home well, the shadow home secretary, yvette cooper, told gb news. Government needs to gb news. The government needs to get grip on the situation. Get a grip on the situation. Strengthen our we need to strengthen our Border Security and fix the chaos in the asylum system because under the conservatives weve really seen criminal gangs take hold along the channel and then this huge soaring backlog with asylum hotel use that is costing the taxpayer billions. So instead of all the gimmicks that weve had from rishi sunak and the conservatives, our plan is to get a grip that starts with the new Cross Border Police to go after the criminal gangs to go after the criminal gangs to smash the Gang Networks and prevent boats arriving on the french coast in the first place. Well , french coast in the first place. Well, meanwhile, the Prime Minister announced plans to create 20,000 new apprenticeships, pledging £60 million worth of new investment to cover fully funded training for young people and a reduction in red tape for small businesses. The government says the full cost of apprenticeships will be offered to applicants aged 21 or under firms from the under at small firms from the 1st of april. Now, the governments warn that the sales of heat pumps will need to increase dramatically to achieve Climate Change targets. The government wants to install 600,000 low carbon heat pumps every year by 2028, but the National Audit office says ministers were too optimistic to think that target could be reached, despite the governments climate aims, only 55,000 heat pumps have been sold in the uk in 2022, the independent public spending watchdog said efforts to encourage people to install heat pumps have been slow because costs remained high and costs have remained high and pubuc costs have remained high and public awareness, they say, is low. Thats the news. For the low. Thats the news. For the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts, scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. Carmelites. Carmelites. Well, my audience question tonight is very much in tune with whats going on in the house of commons right now. Will the rwanda bill work . Its a big question. Clearly a lots riding question. Clearly a lots riding on it. Weve got talk of rishi sunaks premiership once again being in jeopardy, talk of a stalking horse candidate in penny morden. Again, the tories have descended into a degree of psychodrama. Is the rwanda plan the answer . Id love to know the answer . Id love to know from you if you think the rwanda plan will actually rescue rishi sunak. How much do care sunak. How much do you care about rwanda plan . Do you about the rwanda plan . Do you need work in order vote need it to work in order to vote for tories, have you for the tories, or have you given on them . Do. Email given up on them . Do. Email farage at gbnews. Com or tweet or indeed contact me on x with the hashtag farage on gb news. Well, before we speak to Christopher Hope, whos in the commons mopping up the atmosphere, lets bnngin mopping up the atmosphere, lets bring in our guests. Now weve got turner with me, whos got paul turner with me, whos an immigration lawyer, and ive also doctor parth patel with also got doctor parth patel with me institute for me, whos from the institute for pubuc me, whos from the institute for public lets Public Policy research. Lets turn to you. First of all, paul, i mean, a lot is at stake here. It seems quite political. I think the rwanda plan in its entirety, if they do pass this legislation , we know theres legislation, we know theres ping legislation, we know theres ping pong going on between the commons and the lords , but say commons and the lords, but say they do pass it. And we heard from harper , the transport from mark harper, the transport secretary, the weekend, secretary, at the weekend, saying flights saying he hopes that flights will take off this spring. I mean, were the spring, but mean, were in the spring, but hes sort of suggesting would hes sort of suggesting it would be june time. Will be around may, june time. Will it work or will it just face constant legal challenge in the courts . Well, i think the major challenge that it faces , if it challenge that it faces, if it is, passed and its likely to be given the majority , is that, the given the majority, is that, the bill as it, as it sets out, does not exclude, applications directly to the European Court of human rights. And there are two pretty clear avenues. One is one whats called article 13, which is the right to an effective remedy. And the other one is the underlying that the people will be badly treated when they get to rwanda. And when they get to rwanda. And those are not excluded by the bill itself. So yeah, this was the problem that the right wingers had because they did want to exclude any sort of legal challenge by a Foreign Court, they . Court, didnt they . Those notwithstanding we had those notwithstanding clauses cash and clauses that bill cash and others up with. And i think others came up with. And i think the intention that was to the intention of that was to stop this sort of constant legal battle going on with the home office wanting to deport people and those people employing lawyers like yourself to say, no, you cant do it because youre breaching our european and other human rights. , thats right. There yes, thats right. And there was brinkmanship was an element of brinkmanship which is im essentially disavowing the echr in statute is essentially crossing the rubicon and placing the United Kingdom out with International Law. Although didnt we say that we werent going to abide by International Law when it came to prisoner voter rights . I mean, we have turned round and said we will ignore a Foreign Court if we think our Domestic Legislation should jump it, trump it, and yet at the same time , we get a lot on the left time, we get a lot on the left of the tories partys sort of crying foul saying its crying foul and saying its going a reneging of our going to be a reneging of our International Obligations , but International Obligations, but we it before. We have done it before. I think is the level of i think this is the level of this potential, disavowing of what is, in fact, International Law is going to put the United Kingdom in breach of quite a lot of conventions and International Treaties. And im sure a lot of the right wingers would say that that parliament is sovereign, but its sovereign. But the uk is subject to International Treaties and that theres an obugafion treaties and that theres an obligation on the uk to act in good faith in respect of those International Treaties. So to International Treaties. So to disavow them in statute in, in such an exceptional manner over what is really only a few hundred people is. Lets bring doctor patel into the conversation here, i mean, i think from the point of view of the gb audience, if this is Domestic Legislation that gets passed through both houses, albeit it looks as if these amendments that have been tabled by the house of lords will probably just be rejected by the commons. Argue commons. So it you could argue that legislation is that the legislation is a compromise. The government hasnt of the hasnt kowtowed to all of the right wingers in the party. Actually, the left wingers have got way what they wanted, got in a way what they wanted, which more of which is a bit more of a measured piece of legislation than might have demanded. Measured piece of legislation thethis might have demanded. Measured piece of legislation thethis domestic have demanded. Measured piece of legislation thethis Domestic Legislationinded. So this Domestic Legislation should stand, shouldnt it . It shouldnt be kiboshed by Foreign Courts. Thats not really what Domestic Legislation is all about. If its been passed through a house of commons by mps who are democratically elected by the british public. So theres a couple of things there. The first is, is sort of there. The first is, is sort of the legitimacy of passing this legislation. And the second is the left and right wing. I think im going to stick to the first for now, its important to say its not a Foreign Court. Its a court. We are part of. Sure. And i suppose when im saying foreign, im saying external to our domestic situation, external , and not voted for in any way by the british public. And so therefore, its worth asking, why does it exist . Yes. Right. And in any democracy, people with power will abuse it. That the purpose of our constitutional democracy to separate where power lies is exactly that its to stop the government abusing power. Its to stop parliament abusing power and stop the courts abusing power. Trying to stop smuggling its trying to stop smuggling gangs abusing the law. Its trying to stop smuggling garwell, abusing the law. Its trying to stop smuggling garwell, the busing the law. Its trying to stop smuggling garwell, the legislation law. Its trying to stop smuggling garwell, the legislation lsn. Well, the legislation is targeted as a deterrent to try and stop people on small boats coming to the United Kingdom. Its not criminalising smuggling gangs. That would be a different form of legislation. And its form of legislation. And its worth thinking about why that business thats business is booming. Thats partly result british partly a result of british governments regardless. Partly a result of british governthelts regardless. Partly a result of british governthe question regardless. Partly a result of british governthe question here rdless. Partly a result of british governthe question here about right. The question here about the courts is slightly different to the entire. To the logic of the entire. But then you could say that the reason why we cant legislate to stop necessarily foreign is foreign smuggling gangs is because we cant have jurisdiction over lots of Different Countries. As far as people smuggling people can tell, these smuggling gangs are huge criminal conglomerate people conglomerate of lots of people from lots of Different Countries across europe. So obviously that takes multinational takes a kind of multinational approach. But what trying approach. But what were trying to enforce domestic to do here is enforce Domestic Legislation thats representative of what the pubuc representative of what the public wants. If you poll the public wants. If you poll the public, the public wants illegal migration to stop and for the small boats to stop, doesnt it . Yeah, thats not quite the same as the saying the rwanda policy is popular the public. Is popular with the public. Not it is categorically not popular. True. And thats popular. Thats true. And thats what just what varies is its not just a legal problem. Also just legal problem. Its also just like terrible value like an emphatic, terrible value for money. Okay. Well, value for okay. Well, the value for money a really good money thing is a really good point we now learn that point because we now learn that its cost 230,000 per its going to cost 230,000 per asylum them Asylum Seeker to send them to rwanda, potentially , if you rwanda, potentially, if you factor in all of the costs. I think its a really good point and come back to that in and well come back to that in just a moment about, yeah, people migration to people want illegal migration to stop, they want stop, but do they want the rwanda per that seems rwanda plan per se . That seems to be moot point. Lets bring to be a moot point. Lets bring chopper the conversation chopper into the conversation now. , the now. Christopher hope, the political the political editor, is in the House Parliament for house of parliament for us. Chopper there . Chopper whats going on there . I mean, timing of this keeps mean, the timing of this keeps on flopping, think there on flip flopping, we think there are votes at 8 pm. Are going to be votes at 8 pm. Whats you whats going to happen . Do you think . Think . Thats right. Hi. Hi, camilla. Thats right. Theres going to be ten votes, ten divisions of the house of commons to overturn ten different attempts by the house of lords to weaken , if youre of lords to weaken, if youre the government or to improve if youre the lords. This rwanda bill and that those should all go through. Well see. Robert buckland being one of the very, very few tory mps to vote against the government. Its on areas as whether areas such as voting whether rwanda , it needs to be called rwanda, it needs to be called a safe country before the first flights can take off. Its other issues as around whether people coming here from allied countries can be sent to rwanda or their own country theyve come from. Theres ten different areas, all quite technical, but its quite important to the government. To be government. There seem to be strong getting them out, strong and getting them out, getting out. We getting them reversed out. We heard today from number 10 how they at what they are now looking at what they are now looking at what they are now looking at what they a cohort of illegally they call a cohort of illegally arrived seekers. They arrived Asylum Seekers. They will get letters contacted and told theyll be on the first flights. Those first flights they are subject to challenges in the courts. Every one of those cases, i imagine, will find a lawyer. They will then be a battle through the courts. Despite what parliament has happened, week. Happened, has passed. This week. We are expecting the commons to win today and it goes back to the lords on on wednesday. So at the lords on on wednesday. So at the beginning of a process which could end of this, this could be the end of this, this two, nearly year for two, nearly two year wait for the rwanda to become law , the rwanda plan to become law, chris, how much is riding on this for rishi sunak . Obviously today weve read all of the reports about Penny Mordaunt. His leadership is once again being called into question. Weve had yet more catastrophic polling in the weekend, papers suggesting that the tories are heading for some kind of electoral oblivion and clearly this is one of his pledges in his five point plan. So its important. But is this really going to be what changes the dial . What moves the dial for people to go back to the tories, do you think . Do you think . Well, camilla, it might do. I think thatll only happen when these flights finally take off. Weve heard from labour today how they would drop the rwanda plan, if its working. So plan, even if its working. So whether whether thats enough to make make it work. Make it happen, make it work. Were not sure. I think theres a lot to be decided for rishi sunak. I think he is in some danger tonight , i didnt think danger tonight, i didnt think id be saying this, but it looks like the tories could be looking at a third attempt at regicide in a little under 4 or 4 and a half years, ive been told by a very senior tory tonight that there a move against mr there could be a move against mr sunak as soon as this week. That could happen in two different ways, whether Sir Graham Brady leaves a group of Senior Tories to go and see mr sunak and tell him that youve got to change course or do something dramatic or its all over, that others are saying that the number of 53, this number of no confidence letters could be, could be tripped over by a mistake. As many as 40 have gone in already to graham brady, been to Sir Graham Bra