gigot. joe biden and donald trump squared off thursday night in atlanta in a high stakes debate with both candidates hoping that the showdown would reshape the political narrative and per if suede undecided voters as polls show them in a tight race for the white house. president biden attacked donald trump's character in the wake of his felony conviction in new york and tried to link him to the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. but the 81-year-old's own performance exacerbated concerns about his age and ability to serve a second term as he stumbled through his responses and often appeared confused. >> making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what i've been able to do with the, with the covid -- excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if we finally beat medicare -- >> well, he's right, he did beat medicare. he beat it to death. paul: let's bring in democratic pollster and former clinton adviser doug schoen. so is welcome, doug. good to see you. >> thank you. paul: so, obviously, you talked to your fellow democrats -- >> i do. pa. paul: there's panic in the ranks here. after the president's performance, do you think that panic is justified? >> oh, i definitely think it's justified. i was getting texts from rank and file democrats, local leaders raising the question after the first half hour of whether the president knew what was going on, was capable to govern, and there was a clear sense that i was getting long before the commentators weighed in that this was a candidacy in peril. when i believe it remains in peril after the thursday debate, and i think party elders are asking themselves some pretty tough questions now. paul: well, i guess the first question is can the president recover? he's saying he's not about to drop out, and the white house is in full spin mode saying he had a cold and, you know, everybody has a bad night. i guess, can he recover and how does he do it? >> well, i think the answer to the first question is maybe, and how he does it is very difficult. he's got to be vigorous, he's got to be engaged. but everything we've seen so far in the campaign and certainly thursday's debate suggests to me that he's getting weaker rather than stronger, less coherent and less many command. i -- in command. i worry, paul, that we're heading to a moment like we were in august '74 when the republican leadership went to then-president nixon and said you have got to give up the ghost. i worry that the democratic leaders whether it be former presidents clinton and obama, senator schumer, hakeem jeffries and nancy pelosi raise a similar set of questions with president obama. not saying it's going to happen. it could well be in the offing. paul: well, before that, we get to that -- >> sure. paul: -- i want to elaborate on that a little bit. i want to ask you, you've worked in white houses. >> i have. paul: how could the advisers who have been working closely with with him, i mean, they prepped him for a week in detail. i mean, they clearly knew his capacities, okay? they know that enough because they always lay him out with a teleprompter. they don't give him a lot of impromptu possibilities. they write scripts for him. how could they let this happen? >> paul, i don't know, and that is the great unanswered question. look, the people in the white house not only know his capabilities, they deal with him day in and day out. they never should have agreed to this debate. it was completely unnecessary. and they had to know about his limitations. and, bluntly, a week out, ten days out if they sensed this, there was ample opportunity for an international crisis or crises to lead to a cancellation. every decision the white house staff a made including the briefing for thursday night failed, but the fundamental judgment on this debate and participation was the wrong one. paul: so you raise the possibility of a delegation going to the president and saying, sir, we really think it may be time for you to step down. obviously, the president has the delegates, the votes to keep the nomination. it's entirely up to him at this stage. he'd have to withdraw. but what are the other options here to get him to withdraw if he's obstinate, they can't do anything? i guess you have to go to his family and see if you can persuade 'em? how -- is that it? >> i think it's the family, but i think there's another variable which is the polls. if the polls show trump opening nationally, say, more than a 5-point lead and in the 7 swing states clear and virtually impression national leads, maybe 7, 8 points in those 7 states, then and only then they have an argument that will be compelling potentially to biden, potentially to his family. and, certainly, to every democrat. and i'd make the argument if that happens -- and it's a big if, we don't know that that's going to happen. but if it happens, then i think president biden and his family will have to take those kind of concerns very, very seriously. paul: all right. and then it's really an open nomination process, right? i mean, the president could endorse his vice president, but that wouldn't be a foregone conclusion, would it? if you'd have an open convention, i'd assume, but would that be your expectations? >> it would be my expectations and recommendation because if they were to go to kamala harris whose approval rating today is lore than joe biden's -- lower than joe biden's at 36, i think it would be another certain disaster that the party would be courting. so i would argue that the best way to proceed if would be an open convention, let whoever wants to run run, compete for the nomination and let the best man or woman emerge. i think it would create enormous interest in the party and potentially overcome the ma a laze that has set in -- malaise that has set in since thursday night. paul: all right, doug schoen, helpful as always. appreciate your coming in. >> thanks so much, paul. paul: much more on this week's presidential debate after the break as a joe biden and donald trump trade blows over inflation, abortion and the border. so who made the best policy case in thursday's showdown, and will it move the polls in battleground states? we'll ask our panel next. ♪ ♪ if. >> -- what i was left when i became president, what mr. trump left me. we had an economy that was in freefall. the pandemic was so badly handled, many people were dying. the economy collapsed. there were no jobs. unemployment rate rose to 15%. it was terrible. and is so what we had to do was try to put things back9 together again. >> the only jobs he created are for illegal immigrants and bounceback jobs that bounced back from the covid. he has not done a good job, he's done a poor job and inflation's killing our country. paul: president biden blaming donald trump's handling of covid for the rise in inflation during his administration as the former president took a shot at biden's border policies. both candidates attacking each other's record thursday night and warning that giving a second term to his opponent would have grave consequences for the country. let's bring in our panel, "wall street journal" columnist dan dan henninger kim strassel and editorial board member kyle peterson. so, dan, you heard doug schoen talk about joe biden's performance, but what marks do you give donald trump? >> well, i would give trump, i mean, biden's was basically an f, and the democrats are admitting that that the. i would say trump got a c. he started out strong. he did well. he recognized that biden was in trouble, and there was a point in this debate where trump should have seen that he was winning and began, begin to appeal to the american people and make his case for his own presidency. instead, he she guyed into attacking -- session guyed into attacking bide when he was past the point of being attack, really. is so i think democrats, interestingly, while many are saying that joe biden needs to withdraw because he's not able to run as a strong candidate, they also feel that donald trump is, in fact, beatable but beaten not by joe biden, he'd be beaten by another candidate. i think that's a fair issue. but the question is whether the democratic party is going to step forward and put up another candidate against donald trump. paul: kim, the president, trump squaring off on inflation. obviously, one of the big themes that donald trump had was attacking biden on inflation. who won that exchange? >> oh, hands down donald trump did win that education change mostly because what biden argued happened was simply not related to history. his suggestion that the handling of the covid itself was what caused the inflation and his administration, inflation was well under control when donald trump left office a, and as every economist know and we know what caused this was the massive, unnecessary spending boom that accompanied joe biden going into office and then the fed needing to finally have to move to correct that and is pushing interest rates as well too which has, obviously, played into housing, etc. so donald trump, he was good on this in general. he refused to allow himself to be goaded or baited into the areas that joe biden wanted to talk about, and on on the areas of economy when it came to inflawption nation, taxes, etc., donald trump had his facts, and he had the better argument. paul: kyle, one of the things that struck me about the debate was how many issues donald trump really ducked. i mean, he tried not to talk about it whether it be childcare or even january 6th, you know? he gave a cursory answer. but the striking thing was joe biden couldn't take advantage of it at all. he couldn't come back and hit him. i mean, that was, that was shocking really. >> yeah, i agree with that totally. i think there remain a lot of questions about where both of these candidates would try to take the country in the next four years. donald trump was asked are you really going to cut some kind of deal on ukraine with vladimir putin? if what would that look like? he didn't answer that question. he was asked are you really going to try to deport 10-15 million people in the united states illegally? what if they have u.s. citizen spouse or children? he didn't really answer that question either. i would add also on tariffs, on social security. we have a 21% mandatory cut many social security benefits coming within a decade. does donald trump have a plan to deal with that? it's a good debating tactic if you don't want to answer that question to focus on the other guy's record which was what donald trump did so effectively, and it just let biden show his age. i think that was the takeaway. he didn't have to answer those questions because people were so busy being stunned at joe biden's performance. paul: dan, one of the things that's so striking is the degree to which so many democrats are now saying, well, biden should withdraw. a lot of the pundits are out -- elected democrats aren't saying that, but the democratic press, they're saying that. and i guess my question to them is, where were you when this could have been much easier and much more possible? i mean, the only democrat who spoke up really and challenged him was dean phillips. most other democrats derided the congressman from minnesota. maybe they owe dean phillips an apology. >> they do, and i think they owe democrats out there in the country an apology because biden's approval rating has just not been that strong. i guess a lot of what the democrats, professional democrats are driven by is not so much joe biden, but their long antipathy for donald trump. and they had somehow convinced themselves that that joe biden, because he's president, because he's incumbent, was going to pull off a defeat of donald trumpment but trump and biden -- trump. but trump and bind, the head to heads have always been within the margin of error. joe biden has not gained ground, and joe biden's cognitive problems were manifest, paul, and they should have been, as you were suggesting, during the debate prep of past week. so the democrats bear a lot of responsibility not just for what's happened to their own party, but what they have done to the country. they have allowed the country to be led by a president who's clearly impaired, and now we're faced with the really difficult decision of when this president should be asked to ten aside and let another -- step aside and let another candidate step in for the good of their own party and, i would say, for the good of the country as well. paul: all right. when we come back, the presidential candidates trade blows over their tax plans as key provisions of the trump tax cuts get set to expire next year in what is shaping up to be a defining policy issue in the 2024 campaign. ♪r ch♪ it's okay to for them to show off. show off their clearer skin and noticeably less itch with dupixent. because children 6 months and older with eczema have plenty of reasons to show off their skin. with dupixent, the #1 prescribed biologic by dermatologists and allergists, they can stay ahead of their eczema. it helps block a key source of inflammation inside the body that can cause eczema to help heal your child's skin from within. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. tell your doctor about new or worsening eye problems such as eye pain or vision changes including blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don't change or stop asthma medicines without talking to your doctor. show off to the world. ask your child's eczema specialist about dupixent. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions. like what is your glucose and can you have more carbs? 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there was a lot of disinformation if on both sides -- [laughter] but, i mean, are they -- who got the best of it, and what are they try -- what are the parties going to do on taxes? >> well, look, donald trump was at a his strongest when he was making the case for his 2017 tax cuts, which he did. he made the case that it brought a lot of capital back to this country. it made us more competitive, gave everybody a tax cut in all range and brackets. i think the real interesting question here, this is a huge moment coming up because you have two very, very different road maps here. you have donald trump who's proposing yet further reduction ares, talking about changes in the corporate rate, for instance, versus joe biden, and that came through very, very clear in the debate. biden is looking to seriously raise taxes, in particular if on the wealthier americans. his raft of proposals of what he's going to use that money for was almost sort of laughable in the end because this isn't enough money in the world to pay for all the proposals he's got from shoring up social security to new practice, to cutting the deficit. the math doesn't work. but i think what voters need to take away from this exchange is two very different road maps, one in which taxes go way up ultimately for everybody under a joe biden type plan because that's the only way to get the revenue or further tabs reductions and broadening of the base hopefully, although with some unknown on tariffs. paul: all right. kyle, let's talk about foreign policy for a second. if i mean, there was an exchange on ukraine and russia. but i never heard trump say what he would do about russia. and yet trump seemed to score when he linked the putin invasion of ukraine to the withdrawal from afghanistan a of biden, saying that putin responds to weakness. what did you make of that exchange? >> yeah, i think trump absolutely scored some points there. i think many people remember the debacle of that biden withdrawal from afghanistan a, and they remember less the deal that president trump cut when he was leaving office that left biden in a unenviable position also, which is not to defend his ultimate choice to withdraw in the way that he did, but it's another place where i think president trump did a good job is of attacking biden's record saying that the united states has signaled weakness under this president. the joe biden that voters saw last night is the same joe biden that adversaries in china, iran and russia see when they are watching the debate for their own purposes. but again, i think there's less, less substance being provided on what trump actually would do. he preeted again that he would solve the ukraine war in a deal with putin before he was even inaugust a rated into office without -- inaugust a rated without explaining how exactly that's supposed to work. paul: dan, i want to ask you an uncomfortable question, but i think it's a relevant one given the president's performance, and that is the when we still have six months left, more than six months of this president city -- presidency, do you think that foreign adversaries looking at the president's performance might try to take some advantage of that in the next half year? >> i think they might well, paul, at least at the margin. i think, you know, i've said before i think biden's foreign policy team, jake sullivan and antony blinken, have been doing a credible job. not a great job. they've been leading from behind, there's no question behind it. you cannot just simply let a secretary of state run foreign policy. you need a functioning president. dean catchson needed harry truman if -- dean acheson. henry kissinger needed richard nixon. at the moment we don't really have a president who's able to lead at that a level. it's difficult to suggest that the chinese would actually invade taiwan, but they're acting very aggressively against the philippines, they're -- russian, putin is not stepping back at all. and i would not be surprised, paul, if they tried to at least push forward, gain as much ground as a they can in the next six months before either a successor, democratic successor to joe biden takes office or donald trump. paul: kim, what do you think the democrats are going to do here? are they going to to essentially get behind joe biden, or do you think they really do -- there will be some kind of a mobilization get him to withdraw? what's your, what's your guess? >> well, a lot's going to depend in the next week or so in how successfully the white house can manage to the quell this. i think that's going to be really hard, pa