i'm paul gigot. a manhattan jury found donald trump guilty this week on all 34 counts of false iffying business records, the first time in history that a former u.s. president has been convicted of a felony. thursday afternoon's verdict marked a dramatic end to the almost 6-week trial, but trump vowed that the legal fight is not over. >> this was a rigged decision right from day one. with a conflicted judge who should have never been allowed to try this case, never. and we will fight for our constitution. this is far from over. paul: let's bring in jim trusty, a former federal prosecutor and former donald trump attorney. welcome, jim. good to see you again. so what do you make of this verdict? >> well, it's not a shock, unfortunately. i mean, this is the lawfare. it's really at a its worst with. you had a politicized prosecutor who had a picked through the trash of a case that the southern district of new york specifically rejected doing that his predecessor rejected doing, but he revived these misdemeanors with three inventive ways of charging them, got a manhattan jury pool, a manhattan jury selected and very favorable jury instructions. so by the time all of that kind of crescendoed at the end of the week, i wasn't shocked. once you heard there was a verdict, it was pretty clear that it was probably going to be a conviction. paul: so, i mean, do you think this was a foregone conclusion, or were there steps that the defense could have taken that would have been better? >> well, i mean, there's always room, you know, to do the armchair quarterback at the expense to of fellow lawyers. i think that the defense strategy overall was the right one which was to focus on the credibility of michael cohen, don't pick fights with other witnesses that are basically either friendly or not hurting you and draw all of the jury's attention to the idea that you can't possibly convict anybody no matter what your thoughts are about that person it's based on the word of one michael cohen. so i don't begrudge that strategy. i think they stuck to that reasonably well, although they got a little distracted when they went into stormy daniels' testimony and a little bit of a distraction, a little bit of forest being lost through the trees during closing argument. but that's kind of natural. closing argument on these high profile cases, the attorneys tend to think they've got to get every vivid detail in front of the jury, and the government bailed out todd by having about a five and a half hour closing argument. paul: right. well, there's some critics from outside that are armchair quarterbacking, for sure, who say, you know, the defense should have conceded that the stormy daniels encounter did occur and that by denying that, it might have cast some doubt in the minds of the jury about other claims by the defense. does that have any currency with you? >> only a tiny bill. i mean, look, i think they overdignified stormy because at the end of the day, you know, she presented a little bit of a target for them for credibility when it comes to owing the president half a million bucks and not paying it, cashing in on this relationship, inconsistent statements. it was kind of a temptation to cross-examine her that they succumbed to. but the reality is they could have easily just stood up and said we don't have any questions, we don't know why she's here and then come back in closing argument and say the whole thing was a waste and a distraction. i do think the government succeeded, unfortunately, in equating sordid with criminal, with putting all sorts of dirt on the table that landed with this jury. paul right. all right, the other thing that's a been in contention here is the judge's behavior with the trump forces saying that the judge behaved in a way that benefited the prosecution. and you mentioned earlier the charge to the jury that helped the prosecution. explain where you think the judge tilted in that direction. >> yeah. well, i think there's a couple of things. number one, just by nature i'm kind of hesitant to go all in on accusing a judge of anything. if i'm not in the courtroom every day, because you miss the tone in which they're reacting to the attorneys, you miss just the kind of subtle psychology of how a judge is treating either side. and there's a lot of people that are saying without ever setting foot in the courtroom that they know exactly what a makes this judge tick. there's a couple of flashpoints that are of concern, the first being he should have recused himself from the if start. and it's not about the penny ante contributions he made to the biden or obama campaigns, it's that his daughter was in the machine of the democratic party making millions of dollar, dealing with the national-level democratic party. that just not a good look, and i just don't understand why judges aren't more uniformly sensitive to the appearance of impropriety particularly on a case of this magnitude. that's strike one. strike two was hat whole trial proceeded, paul, without anyone really knowing what the theory of felonization was until instructions. that's an absurd or procedural error, and i kuwait process with fairness -- i equate process with fairness that infected this case from the beginning. so when the the judge finally gave the instructions on what made these misdemeanor bookkeeping entries felonies, it was kind of a menu, a buffet menu of you don't really have to decide whether there was a federal -- i'm sorry, a felony violation or what the exact basis is, just decide there's something illegal. it gives them three options which were vague and in some cases federal, which makes no sense in state court. is so i think that's the error -- probably the sexiest area for appeal is that coupled with the denial of the fec chair's testimony because that a just inflames the problem of mystery instructions that include federal ones getting before this jury. paul: yeah. i just want to tug out this process point you make. are you saying that there is a potential due process of law violation here, that a because in a case like this you are required to give the defense and the jurors notice with some specificity and with some advance notice and clarify what, in fact, are the specific charges here? and i'm not just talking about the baseline charge here, i'm talking about the underlying theories that the prosecution offered about what a trump was trying to cover up supposedly here. is that what you're talking about? >> well, i'm talking a little more profoundly just in terms of, you know, the criminal justice system and the need for regularity, transparency and fair process in general. but i would say you're right that this does tap into an aa pell late issue that would be -- appellate issue that would be probably framed in terms of due process. keep in mind, the government was asked to particularize their indictment. there's 34 charges in the indictment that are template, they're bare bones charges. they list element and they say to wit a check or a rebellinger. they do not give -- ledger. the only time we had felony theories coming out was really kind of, i think, an unethical press conference by alvin bragg where he held up a statement of facts which was not anything the grand jury decided, but something alvin bragg decided. so he skirted the ethical prohibitions about talking about the facts of the case by kind of creating this impersonation document in lieu of an indictment. so you had a very vague indictment, a judge that did not make them particularize, and literally all the way to the closing arguments or at least to the charging conference there was not clear how he was going to instruct the jury on that critical issue of how these misdemeanors became felonies. so that's going to be a big one for appeal. i would also just mention real quick, paul, that the weinstein opinion coming out, you know, reinforces the idea that judges should not let collateral damaging information out during a trial, and that certainly happened here when you talk about the access hollywood tape being described and karen mc mcdougal's n darks being mentioned. -- nda a being mentioned. there's some pretty sexy areas for appeal if that are going to be coming, and it's going to take a some time, but i would start. paul: the weinstein case is the harvey weinstein case where the appellate court overturned the conviction. let's turn to sentencing here beliefly. the sentencing -- briefly. the sentencing hearing will be july 11th. do you think the judge will impose jail time? >> well, in a normal world, no. i mean, these are classy -- class e felonies which are a little bit big brothers to misdemeanors, right on the line of misdemeanors. it is an old case, it is a contrived case, it is a victimless case. so you would think in a normal world that the judge would immediately get to the point of talking about probation and any conditions of probation. it's just hard to predict, you know, in the lawfare world we're living. i think the biggest starting point is the defense some point soon will reach out to the prosecution and say do you know with what your position is going to be at sentencing. if the government with says it's a bridge too far to ask for jail, then that's going to really put judge merchan out on a limb if he's even thinking about it. that would give the defense a reasonable amount of confidence that that we're not talking about any form of custody whatsoever for the president. but, you know, open question until we get probably june or july. paul: jim trust key, thanks so much finish trusty. still ahead, much more on the verdict and the cl trial of former president donald trump and the troubling legal precedent it e sets for other politicacal figures. ♪ made with whole meat and veggies. it's not dry food. it's not wet food. it's just real food. it's an idea whose time has come. how do you find the perfect father's day gift? simple. just type wt.com. weathertech has hundreds of premium products that will keep dad's vehicle looking its best. like laser-measured floorliners, cargo liner and seat protector for extra interior protection. sunshade blocks harmful uv rays. the cupfone perfectly secures his phone while driving. order these american made products or a gift card at wt.com. happy father's day. ♪ >> i did my job. our job is to follow the facts and the law without fear or favor, and that's exactly what we did here. many voices out there, the only voice that matters is the voice of the jury. and the jury has spoke. paul: that was manhattan district attorney alvin bragg on thursday the reacting to donald trump's conviction saying all 34 charges against the former president were based on facts and law and were brought by his office without fear or favor. let's bring in our panel, "wall street journal" columnists dan dan henninger bill mcgurn and editorial board member kyle peterson. kyle, you followed this trial very closely. did alvin bragg just follow the facts and the law? >> well, the truth is that this case was profoundly political from the start, and this would not be a case that would be brought against any other businessman who engaged in some kind of business records thing seven years ago, i think. and you can see that in the closing arguments when the prosecutors says this is election fraud, more or less, that this is what might have decided the 2016 election and made donald trump the president president. i do think maybe the defense could have taken a different tack by stipulating that there was some sort of affair with stormy daniels and preempting her testimony or much of it from coming in even though the judge seems to have lost control of her as a witness, and that could be another potential avenue of appeal for the president -- paul: because there was prejudicial testimony brought in. >> correct. and the trump team could argue what does any of this have to do9 with the business records that we had? similarly, i think the defense could have stipulated9 that the payments to michael cohen in 2017 were reimbursement for that hush money and that a argued to the jury that that at worst maybe that's a misdemeanor from the statute of limitations has a expired, not the kind of felonies that a alvin bragg was putting crimes inside of crimes in order to elevate them that way. paul: dan, from a legal point of view what do you think the implications are for this kind of prosecution in such a hypofile political case?? -- high profile political case? >> i think the implications are dire, to tell you the truth. there are both legal and political implications, quite frankly. paul: we'll get to the politics later, but i'm thinking about credibility of the legal system. >> well, the cred credibility of the legal system is already under pressure, and what's really under pressure here is i think the credibility, again, politics is unavoidable, paul, new york political system and especially new york city. what are people out there sitting back looking at this thinking about new york? we already know that the new york legislatures have gone completely to the left. mayor adams, the mayor, is having a difficult time because the city council is so progressive. the state legislature is so progressive. new york state has a reputation for having a highly respectable legal system, and yet with here you had a trial that the southern district, a case they failed to bring. alvin bragg pushed this case, got a manhattan jury, a judge who, by and large, sided with the prosecution on balance throughout the case and somehow brought a conviction from a manhattan jury. and i think, certainly, new york's legal system is going to be under a cloud after this, and i think given what has been going on with lawfare generally out there that the american people are really becoming upset about an institution that they bought thought was an arbiter for these kinds of disputes and instead has become a political player. paul: bill, we've always thought that you have to put your trust in juries. >> right. paul: the jury system is what we have, and they are the closest to the case based on the facts that they heard in that six weeks. what do you make of this then? do we have to say in this case they were wrong or what? >> no. i think juries are only good as what they hear, or you know? they can't be blamed for what they don't hear. and the instructions to the jury and the denial of certain witnesses trump wanted to bring, i think that reflected in their vote. so i don't blame the jury. i think two points about it. one, i think it's going to be reversed on appeal. remember, new york courts, whatever you think of to them, they've reversed harvey weinstein -- [laughter] paul: right. >> -- appeal. they said he didn't -- they brought witnesses that shouldn't have been heard -- paul: present additional testimony. >> yes. so if they could do that, probably the most unsympathetic defendant after trump in the country, i think there's hope for trump. so i do think there's so much grounds for reversal. but the second point is it doesn't matter, because it will have served it purpose. -- its purpose. it allows joe biden to say during the campaign convicted felon. in that way it's exactly the same as the letter those 511 former intel letters signed saying hunter biden's laptop -- which, by the way, will be evidence in the trial beginning next week -- was likely soviet, russian disinformation. it serves its political purpose even if it's reversed. paul: kyle, fascinating element of this is the prosecution resorted to election denial. it basically introduced the fact that this may well have turned the payoffs may well have turned the 2016 election. i thought they were saying that election denial was a bad thing in 020, and here they're saying, well, going back to 2016. >> right. and to be clear, it's a bad thing in both cases -- [laughter] i don't think the 2020 election was stolen or the 2016 election was stolen. but if democrats are worried about republicans talking about stolen elections now, just wait until if we get a biden victory this november under the cloud of this conviction and then it's overturned on appeal which i agree there's a reasonable chance of success there for donald trump because of the way that a this was structured. again, remember, trump was convicted of falsifying business records in order to commit or conceal a second crime which was campaigning unlawfully in new york. and the unlawful means was either some sort of tax violation or covering up falsification of other business records or a federal campaign finance violation. there was a lot of fodder there for appeals courts. there's a former f if ec commissioner who say no way, no how was this a campaign a expense. and because those three are all tied together, if that a falls, i think the overall conviction has to go. paul: when we come back, much more on the guilty verdict against donald trump and the potential political fallout for both the former president and joe biden as the 20 this campaign -- 2024 campaign heads into the summer stretch. more confidence abetes h and lower your a1c. try it for free at freestylelibre.us always dry scoop before you run. listen to me, the hot dog diet got me shredded. it's time we listen to science. one a day is formulated with key nutrients to support whole body health. one a day. science that matters. norman, bad news... i never graduated from med school. what? -but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? ♪ >> after a careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. they found donald trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. now he'll be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision just like everyone else has that that opportunity. that's how the american system of justice works. paul: president biden reacting to the conviction of his 2024 presidential rival as both sides brace for the political fallout from the trial. a poll released thursday before the jury reached its verdict found that 67% of voters said a conviction would make no difference in november with that number rising to 74% among dependents. so, dan, i want to get at this nexus of law and politics again. this whole strategy of lawfare seems to open up a whole new era for the american system, political system where using the prosecutions to disqualify an opponent, i think, is going to becoming regular behavior. >> yeah, i completely agree. this is opening a pandora's box. let's -- what has happened to trump is simply what we call a precedent. it's a legal precedent, historical precedent and, yes, indeed, it's going to be a political precedent. if anybody out there thinks that republican or conservative prosecutors at some point in the future are not going if to undertake a prosecution of this sort against a political opponent, they are dreaming. it's tit for tat. there is even an argument you could make that republican prosecutors will probably feel they have to do this now to balance what the democrats have just accomplished with this prosecution. and, truth to tell, that is going to diminish the legal system -- paul: right. >> -- for sure. it is going to the highly politicize is it. but i think a lot of republican attorneys general out there and prosecutors are not going to be the least bit reluctant about doing this sort of thing. paul: we're on the road to bolivia. and if that isn't unfair to bolivia. bill, is this going to make any difference to the republican nomination at all? some do you think that trump will not be the nominee? >> no. i think it's going to make donald trump and his supporters double down. they, he's been saying all along that he's being treated unfairly, that no one not named trump would be indicted for these kind of crimes, alleged crimes. and i think he's right about that. so there are, you know, those polls show overwhelming amount of people that don't care about the conviction -- paul: right. >> but there are some. that means this is some that a do care. the question is, do they, do they switch? i'm not so sure. i would have maybe said weeks ago that would hurt him. i'm not so sure now. does this overcome people's worries about a high prices and crime and the border and stuff? i don't know. and that's a remarkable thing because think of it. how many of us would have predicted five years ago that a convicted felon could run for the president and be ahead in the polls? no one. but it's changed. and i think the democrats are going to overplay their hand as they've already overplayed it. look at a robert deniro showing up at a democratic party-sanctioned press conference and getting in a spat with the trump supporters? paul: on the other hand, kyle, this is one of the risks the republicans took when they nominated -- when they moved to nominate donald trump. they knew he had these vulnerabilityings. there had -- vulnerabilities. there had to be some risks to being convicted, or is it just now irrelevant because of the democratic lawfare strategy? if i mean, even with swing votersesome. >> sure. it seems to me, this is the kind of thing that fires up the base but makes it harder to win over suburbanites in places like wisconsin. i think we've seen the first of those already. the fund raising number for donald trump in the 24 hours after the verdict was huge -- paul: soaring, yeah. >> according to the campaign something like nearly a third of those people had not previously donated through this platform, so that does suggest that people who think the verdict is baloney are making themselves heard, and they definitely will in november. on the other hand, the 2020 election was extremely close, a handful of tens of thousands of votes many three states. in three states. and this may be the kind of thing that if we have a similar outcome in 2024 in november where it's decided by 5,000 people in wisconsin, this may be the kind of thing that is the straw that breaks the camel's back for some of those undecided people in the sub is bushes around milwaukee -- suburbs. paul: where do you come out on this issue, dan? in particular we've got another trial coming up, hunter biden. [laughter] felony trials, the president's son coming up. joe biden has to to handle his comments on this conviction with some care because what's going to happen to his son? if. >> yeah, exactly right. and that could have an effect. and, you know, paul, you recall how we used to say that these big presidential elections could be decided at the last moment by what we call an october surprise. big event at the very end of the campaign. we're having ab a october surprise now virtually every week or every two weeks. and the next one is going to come z the hunter biden trial. but recall there is going to be, presumably, a debate between joe biden and donald trump which everyone is going to watch, and i think that probably is going to have a bigger effect on the course of events going forward than this trial willing, quite frankly. because that's where you get two men finally sitting face to face if, talking to one another about issues, and they're going to have to do that. paul: bill, biden was fairly restrained in his meet response to the conviction -- immediate response. the same message trump is giving. but other democrats will not be so restrained. but is that the right way biden should handle -- >> i think it is the right way, but i don't think, see him sticking to script -- [laughter] because his whole campaign is based on the idea he's the savior with of the soul of american democracy. it's under threat. i think this is going to be a huge temptation for him to go after donald trump in a heavy-handed way. the debate later this month, you know, assuming hunter has a problem, may be convicted, how many on each side -- how many times will each candidate can throw the word convicted felon -- [laughter] at the other? and remember, joe biden in the last debates lied about a whether his family got money from china and said he didn't. and hunter's already admitted that in court. so it's not clear who's going to emerge with the least mud -- [laughter] paul: it's going to be a wonderful spectacle. oh, god. okay. still ahead, with just over five months to go until the election, a new report says democrats are in a a full-blown freakout over joe biden's prospects of winning a second term. our panel on what's behind the president's stubbornly poor if polling numbers next. this is the tempur-pedic breeze mattress, and it's designed to help you feel cool. so, no more sweating all night no kicking off the covers or blasting the air conditioning. because only the tempur-pedic breeze is made with our one-of-a-kind cooling technology— that pulls heat away from your body. so, the mattress feels up to 10° cooler all night long. during the tempur-pedic memorial day sale, save up to $500 on select adjustable mattress sets, and experience deep, undisturbed rest. learn more at tempurpedic.com happy memories just come easier on the water. our founder, johnny morris and his dad knew this first hand, they created a boat that was more affordable... tracker, the world's #1 one best selling fishing and pontoon boats powered by mercury. proudly built in missouri and sold factory direct at bass pro shops and select dealers. for as little as 5 dollars a day... you can own a brand new tracker and make lifelong memories of your own. bass pro shops. voted america's best outdoor retailer. save even more and support conservation when you join the club. ♪ paul: another week, another headline about the democratic party's panic over joe biden with politico claiming on tuesday that a democrats are in a full blown freakout according to the report, quote, a pervasive sense of fear has settled in at the highest levels of the democratic party over president joe bidens' re-election prospects. even among office holders and strategists who had a previously expressed confidence about the coming battle with donald trump. we're back with our panel. bill, democrats frightened about joe biden's prospects? should they be despite this guilty verdict? >> yeah, they should be very frightened. look, president biden has two big problems. one, he's underwater on the issues. people aren't buying his talk about the economy or the border or crime or so forth. they have trouble in the middle east too. so on the issues, he's down. and second, he's also a down -- also a down with key parts of the democratic party constituency, particularly african-american men and latinos and they don't have to vote for trump, but if they don't vote for biden, he's in trouble which is why he's spending a lot of time at a, with groups like the naacp and so forth. he needs to shore them up. and i think the third problem relates to those two, he's so condescending to a lot of his own supporters. like when he told charlamagne tha god last time around if you don't vote for me, you ain't back? i mean, so arrogant. and it's kind of the sale of bidenomics implies americans are too stupid to appreciate how brilliant his policies have been. so i think he's in real trouble. then you add his age and so forth, it's another problem. paul: this is, kyle, as i see it, probably the third or fourth such democratic freak ifout -- [laughter] since the start of this campaign. we had one in december and then that seemed to calm down with the president's performance in the state of the union. democrats said, aha a, he's up to the world after all. dean fill lips went nowhere. but now it's, i guess, the poll numbers that are driving this. is this just another case of the bedwetter caucus speaking up, as it's called, and they can't really do anything about it? >> i think that's the problem, is the guy who's in control here is president biden. it's very hard to convince an ini couple bent who has a wanted to be sitting in the in the oval office a for decades that he should go sit on his front if porch instead with a lemonade in a rocking chair. biden doesn't want to leave. now he's won these primaries. as you said,, dean phillips didn't mount much of a challenge to him, and he's got the delegates to be nominated a second time. and and so i think these political problems are real. inflation, immigration, his age, the problem is if you are a power broker in the democratic party or you're a big wig, all you can do is plead with the president to step aside, and it doesn't seem that biden is interested in doing that. paul: dan, it seems to me the only threshold point here, the next big date would be the debate, june 27th. if biden does well there, all this will go away. if it doesn't, if he really flops, that could be a big moment where democrats then start to say, okay, maybe we can make a change. but i agree with kyle, it has to be trump -- biden himself who has to make that decision. >> yeah. well, you know, politics is full of conspiracy theories these days, and one at the outer rim of conspiracy theory was that some democrats wanted this debate early so they could prove to the world that bind was incapable -- biden was incapable of running and they have time before the convention to get a new candidate. [laughter] it's not beyond imagining. the reality is the american people, to the extent they are watching presidential performances anymore, see that mr. biden reads everything either off cards or off a teleprompter. he almost does nothing extemp rain now -- paul: and when he does -- [laughter] >> the gaffe torrent opens up. so he's not going to have, i don't think, maybe he will come into the debate with cards to read answers. but that would be a bad look. i think the democratic team around biden has a decided they're going to move the campaign in a simple way to simply attacking donald trump and the maga extremists. trump is a threat to democracy. but that's not going to satisfy the american people. there's an extent to which biden's personality, incompetent. trump's personality, unacceptable. it's a wash: and what you're left with is talking about issues like bill was suggesting, the economy, migrants, foreign policy. trump is capable of talking about those issues, agree or disagree with him. but with joe biden, less so. so i can see why democrats are beginning to get into a freak ifout to over the president's ability to car ally the campaign. paul: bill, you wrote about kamala harris, the vice president, being a problem for democrats if if they ever go to the place where they're going to replace biden because she might even be a weaker candidate. explain that. >> well, the polls show she's not -- [inaudible] than joe biden. and it's not surprising. remember, she dropped out of the democratic primaries before a single vote was cast, even black voters were not going for her. they went with for joe biden. they bailed him out in south carolina. he's looking to her now to shore up support among women. she's out there campaigning about abortion. and among african-americans, to try to shore up support. but i think the problem democrats face, okay, we get rid of joe, then we've got kamala? they want that. and could they, could the democrat party today pass over a black, female, indian-american candidate for any one of the white candidates like gavin newsom or imrechen whitmer? could they pass up for them -- paul: what's your answer this many. >> i don't think it's possible. [laughter] if. paul: and, kyle, very briefly, the problem the president has with minority voters, is that fundamentally related, do you think, to the economy, inflation, cost of living or living circumstances? >> i think that is a huge part of it. the president keeps saying that inflation was 9% when he took office. we know that timeline was not right. that was after he took office a, and he can brag that it has come down for them, but people still remember what prices were before he took office and what they are now. paul: yeah. the inflation, i think, has averaged 5.5% across his presidency. it was 1.9 across trump's. so people feel that difference. all right, still ahead, supreme court justice samuel alito responds to his critics over the the flag flap and rejects the left's demand that he recuse himself from cases involving january 6th and former president donald trump. ♪ i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. 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[laughter] and we have been through this before where justice ginsburg was making clear her opposition to donald trump. there was another case in the ninth district, a judge named reinhart whose wife was involved with the american civil liberties union in a case that was being brought before the court. he did not feel he had to recuse himself. so, again, the standard to bar, to force a judge or a justice to recuse in these cases is extraordinarily high and with good reason. paul: bill, justice alito says that the flag flying were his wife's choice. he disagreed, but she has the right to free speech. i suppose anyone in a marriage would understand that. [laughter] but what do you think about that as -- >> well, i want to say a word for my fellow new jerseyite, mrs. if alito. what she she has put up with, as the justice pointed out, is unbelievable. you know, if ruth bader ginsburg were called the name that a mrse neighbor, one of the most vile insults directed at a woman, there'd be calls for -- against this person, they'd be doxxed, it'd be all over the papers. but somehow mrs. alito has put up with it. so i have a lot of she for her, and i think -- sympathy for her, and i think the justice was right. he has an obligation to sit. this doesn't affect if it. and they're reading too much into it. and also it's part of a wider war on the one institution that democrats used to be able to count on instead of votes, get five justices to do your dirty work, and they can't forgive him for -- forgive them for dobbs, and they don't trust them on cases coming forward. paul: dobbs being the case that overturned roe v. wade. chief justice roberts wouldn't meet with them, my own view, that's the right decision. why do they get to discuss the ethics when that is decided by the court itself. why are the democrats doing this? >> i think bill's right, i think this is a political campaign. it is a campaign to try to discredit the decisions coming out of the supreme court. it is a campaign to potentially lay the groundwork to adding justices to the supreme court if democrats control the senate and decide to break the filibuster at the november election and if president biden wins re-election. i think they are smart enough to know this, many of them are lawyers, constitutional lawyers. it's not as if they don't understand the narrowness of the recusal rule. the recusal rules are aimed at does the justice have a family member who is involved in this case, a witness in this case, a party to this case, is there money involved? does he own a piece of the stock in this corporation? it has nothing to do with these kinds of symbolic things. and the double standard also is enormous. justice ruth bauder ginsburg said -- bader ginsburg said negative things about trump reportedly after he won election in 2016, she wore her dissent collar to the court that a day. i think that is a much stronger symbol of bias. paul: by the way, the supreme court hasn't always ruled in trump's favor. my own view, dan, is this is driven by the white house. he's breathing down dick durbin's neck who's afraid he's going to lose his chairmanship like dianne feinstein did if he doesn't essentially do what sheldon wants him to do. >> yeah. and senator white is -- whitehouse is trying to -- first it was justice thomas, now it's justice alito, and he's grabbing any opportunity they can get to accomplish that. it's not working. paul: all right. we have to take one more break with. when we come back, hits and misses of the week. ♪ (vo) you were diagnosed with thyroid eye disease a long time ago. and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. it's an mrs. of the week. kyle, first to you. it took fighting for so this fellow republicans are due. texas is followed by it's like florida and arizona dear education savings account worth about $11000 per students whose block by 20 republicans in the state house. including from rural areas where they argue there's not a lot of pool alternatives in the first place. it's a bad argument governor abbott did not except to challenge many legislators are beating them and including some and runoffs on tuesday and now he said he has the votes texas had a big way. kirksville? works hope to the world top golfer after a kentucky prosecutor dropped the charges against him. he was arrested about two to the budget. peter now says is a characterization is a big misunderstanding. was supported by the evidence which included video. so, after few hours and gentle heat managed to hit his tee time and behaved with class. quick set up victory for prosecutorial discretion. >> believe it or not i'm giving a hit to harvard university. it's been the locust of so much anti-semitic activity on campus recently. as we know there is a saying liberals have to be mugged by reality. harvard wasn't mugged and mugged and mugged before it arrived at the reality week it would try to remain neutral on issues of public controversy. as a saying sleep going to be in the pudding or in the hasty pudding at harvard. it is at least a start for they were in a very bad place hope for this to the road back up. >> thank you dan. remember if you have your own hit or miss be sure to send it to us at ger on fnc. that is it for this week's show thank you to my panel and all of you for watching. hope to see it right here nexth week. good. when you've got type 2 diabetes like me, you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack or worse death. even when meeting your a1c goal. discomfort can help you act. i'm not trying to scare you. i'm empowering you... to get real with your health care provider. talk to them about lowering your risk of stroke, heart attack or death. with the price of just about everything inflating these days, you may wonder why mint is deflating the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. well, it's easy. we know a great price on a great product is better than one of those things. right? 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