Them. Im ayman mohyeldin, lets get started. Well, after years of wondering, this week we finally learn just how far mike pence is willing to go for donald trump, and what his eventual breaking point. It didnt come in 2016 when the access Hollywood Tape was released and trump was heard bragging about sexually assaulting women. Pence stood by his despite even trump acknowledging that, quote, mother is not going to like this. It wasnt when trump called the neo nazis pence even defended trump when he called haitian and african nations shole countries. The deeply religious mike pence even had trumps back when details of his affair with porn star Stormy Daniels came to light. After years of putting up with trump, it seems that pence had finally had enough, and issued a rebuke of his former boss this week. I heard this week that President Trump said i had the right to overturn the election. President trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American People and the American People alone. And frankly, there is no idea more unamerican than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. Under the constitution i had no right to change the outcome of our election. Well said, mike, well said. By ive got to ask you, what took you so long . Trump has been pushing this bogus theory the Vice President could have rejected the results of the election for well over a year now, its a theory that pence first rejected actually on january 6th, 2021 with his actions. Thats when he refused to go along with trumps plan, and when it mattered the most. So believe me, the last thing im looking to do here is give mike pence extra credit for realizing he doesnt have to take trumps crap anymore. But, this was a revealing week in terms of how far people are willing to go for trump, both on an individual level, and a group level. And let me explain why. New reporting from the New York Times this week, that was more involved than previously known, suggests that trump was involved, any plan to have the military seize Voting Machines around the country. Heres the part that really jumped out at me. If youre not sitting down right now, ive got to be honest with you, youre probably going to want to take a seat. Because the plan was shot down by none other than Rudy Giuliani. Now, again, lets pump the brakes on giving rudy too much, or honestly any credit here. This particular plan had been put forward by Sidney Powell, rudys chief rival for the spot of trumps craziest lawyer. After shooting it down giuliani then tried to have the department of Homeland Security do the same thing, that avenue would get blocked by Another Trump Loyalist when acting dhs deputy secretary Ken Cuccinelli told giuliani the department of Homeland Security officials wouldnt help him out. Attorney general bill barr himself at one point a member of trumps riot or die crew had also shot down a similar plan to have the Justice Department get involved in overturning the election. Now, while the results of the 2020 election wouldnt be overthrown by these individual individuals, excuse me, the broader Republican Party is continuing to make it clear that they are all in on trump and the insurrection. Just look what happened yesterday. Friday, the Republican NationalCommittee Approved a resolution, censuring representatives liz cheney and Adam Kinzinger for their participation in the january 6th select committee. But theres one particular section of the resolution that i think is so important to call out. They write this. Representatives cheney and kinzinger are participating in a democratled persecution of ordinary citizens, engaged in legitimate political discourse. Think about that. The gop is now all about explicitly saying that they are all for the january 6th coup in this country. So while its notable that the scales may have finally fallen from the eyes of people like mike pence and other close trump allies it ultimately doesnt mean much if the party itself is still toeing that trump line. We now have a Political Party in this country that is willing to subject itself to the whims of a wannabe autocrat, a single leader, willing to whitewash violence, change the rules of our elections so that theyre never out of power again. Folks, this isnt normal. Every week, on this show, we tell you a new threshold that has been crossed. And with every week that goes by, it becomes more and more clear how far into dangerous waters this country may genuinely never recover from. Thats where were going, Unchartered Territory. Theres a word for what path we are on. If nothing changes, we are heading towards fascism, and it should scare the hell out of all of us. Joining me now is philip bump, a National Correspondent for the washington post. Phillip, great to have you back on the show with us. Another week, we learned more this week about trumps involvement in these plans to steal the election, or as he said, overturn the election. The time this time it was an idea from Sidney Powell to have the military seize votesing machines, which you described it as one element of a Throw Spaghetti at the wall plan by loyalists to see what basically sticks. Were you surprised to learn it was rudy who talked trump out of this . No, not really. I mean, i think you hit the nail on the head there with the fact that Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell had been at loggerheads for some time. This was an absolutely bananas press conference in d. C. In midnovember, which Sidney Powell outlined these bonkers claims about foreign interference in the election, and the electoral machines, so crazy that Tucker Carlson went on fox news. There was also this bad blood between jewel gnaw luani. Powell seen as being beyond the pail. Because trump is so desperate to come up with any solution possible to try and hold onto the presidency, this is after december 14th, after the electors have already voted, that he then embraces this new idea, he welcomes Sidney Powell back into the white house, literally, and, you know, opens his he actually says at one point, according to reporting from my colleagues at the post, he says, you know, at least shes giving me a chance. Shes giving me options here. But because giuliani and powell had this bad blood, even giuliani had to say, look, we cant move forward with this plan as is. Lets help me put these comments in context. Lets talk a little bit about the pence comments from earlier this week. On one hand a lot of people are making a huge deal about them praising him to some extent for saying very clearly and definitively, trump was wrong, certainly members of the Political Class commentators on twitter, are they guilty of hyping it up too much or is it worth pointing out or giving him credit that he is doing this at the federalist society, you know, to some extent, a bastion of conservative intelligence, if you want to use the word, or did he not have the courage of going on fox news and saying that to the base of the party which is more staunchly trump than what you may expect from the federalist society. What do you think . I will say, just speaking from my own perspective. I think its obviously better than not that he said this so explicitly. To the point you raised in your introduction, this is essentially what he said on january 6th. That he was that whoever was saying that he could do these things was wrong. Thats essentially what he said in his letter on january 6th itself. And i think stuart stevens, a longtime yop consultant, worked with both president bushes. He has since become very disillusioned about the party and he raised a good point about pence. Yes, he did the right thing on january 6th, but he was also involved with and tasked with by donald trump, overturning the election. And instead of raising a stink at that point in time publicly saying, hey, we cant do this, what are you doing . Instead he did the most dos ill thing he could. Heres my letter saying im not going to do that, go to capitol hill. Better to do that than not. Better now he was wrong than not but it was not this great brave thing he did necessarily. And i think we risk missing the forest here. I think youre exactly right, what we need to focus on is there was this big effort, and i think we get so bogged down in these little incidents and these little statements that are like, aha, and moving the ball incrementally forward and failing to appreciate that were in the midst of this effort to have tried to steal the presidency and that is the big picture we need to remain focused on. Yeah, i keep reminding people on this show and elsewhere that we dodged a bullet, not because our institutions upheld or our laws worked, but by the grace of maybe a handful of people who made certain decisions and we got a lucky break this time. We may not get that break the next time. One person, whos definitely had a strong reaction to this, philip, to mike pences comments, is trump himself. I mean, since pences comments yesterday, trump has put out four stand alone statements attacking pence, blaming Speaker Pelosi for the capitol riot. Do you think that he was rattled by pence speaking out . Does pence speaking out open the door for others in the Republican Party, and i dont want to say Republican Party collectively. We know what they did yesterday. But republican individuals to stand up with a little bit of courage and follow mike pences lead through the door . I mean, i think we come back to the sort of hope that Many Americans have held since, you know, mid2015, which is that maybe there will be someone who says, you know, i will also take up the banner and stand alongside you. But, i mean, i think if you ask any american, who are republicans more likely whos the leader theyre more likely to follow, donald trump or mike pence, who is mike pence leading. Maybe his immediate family. Not sure. Even his brother, greg pence, in the house voted against recognizing the electors on january 6th. Its you know, i think that by itself answers the question. No, youre absolutely right. Its a very good point and a good way to look at it and not to mention the gop spoke out yesterday, we know how that went. It was as trumpian as you can possibly get. Philip bump, great to see you. Joining me now is congresswoman sheila jacksonlee, democrat from texas who sits on the Homeland Security committee. Congresswoman, thank you for joining us as well. I want to start off by asking you about a pair of tweets from republican senator Lisa Murkowski in response to the censure of representatives cheney and kinzinger. She wrote that we must not legitimize those actions which resulted in lots of life and we must learn from that horrible event so that history does not repeat itself. Your reaction to the senators comments and do you think thats what the Republican Party is doing by attempting the brush the plot to overthrow the election under the rug . First of all, so good to be with you and your viewers. I totally agree with the senator. And my point, first, is that this Democratic Republic is at a precipice of survival, or collapse. And it is shameful that we have lost our adversary. Weve lost the loyal opposition of the basis of this nation, where two distinct parties and others stood up for different opinions, but stood up for democracy. Im stunned. By the action that occurred on friday. And the reason is, that you have now censured patriots, individuals that serve on a committee, that is trying to discern why we were so violated on january 6th. Why democracy was so viciously attacked. And you are challenging them to support not only a person who stands on the pile of big lies, but is a unelected citizen, who argues for the overthrow of this government. And that is the form president of the United States. And you are challenging them for not being loyal, not to the nation, not to the constitution, but to a person who has not earned that kind of respect. It saddens me for a party that i have worked with, as loyal opposition, and it saddens me for the democracy that we love, the United States of america. It is an outrage. So let me ask you about the democracy of the United States of america for a moment. When you take a step back and you look at what happened yesterday, with the gop censuring two members of congress, basically embracing Political Violence in an attempted overthrow of our government, a plot by the president and his closest allies to overturn the election in his words. A party that is embracing the banning of books in this country and our educational system, a party that is, to some extent, antiscience, a rise of neonazis in various parts of our country. What is the state of our country . Is It Hyperbolic for me and others to say that we are at a very dangerous threshold and we are going in Unchartered Territory here in this country . I think it is insightful and important for journalists under the First Amendment to keep educating the American Public. That if theyre not vigilant about their democracy, they are on a precipice, as i said, of survival, or collapse. I have faith in this little book called the constitution. Its early words that said we have gathered to create a more perfect union, as you well know, women were not included in the constitution, slaves were less than one person, and weve had our difficulties with race and sex, if you will, but what we have been able to do is to ensure that the basis of this country was a love for democracy and a love for the flag and a love for who we are. We have stood as a progressive, ive stand against the vileness of some of the actions that have occurred from the dixiecrats and the deg segregationists. But ive always had a faith that the majority of the people, the Men And Women who put on the uniform believe in its basic principle. I believe that we have hope because progressives are strong, and we are embracing all of america who really wants to move forward, have build back better, have the bipartisan infrastructure bill, fight to eliminate racism. But we cannot let our guard down because as we saw on january 6th, we saw not only domestic terrorists, but we saw the hollering of racial ep against black police officers, we saw the toxic mixture that can be the end of us. I think there are young people and the voters are going to fool many of those in the krup camp in 2022 and vote to move this country forward. We cannot let our guard down. Democracy is fragile and i believe weve got to fight for it. I have to ask about the party generally, the Democratic Party generally, do you think they are up to the task for saving this democracy given where it is, and i say that knowing we may be losing, as you said, the loyal opposition in this country, does the democratic water realize the seriousness of it . The totality of the party, some people do. Yourself and progressives are up for it, but does the Party Leadership and the white house, do you think, are they aware of the moment when it comes to the threat of voting rights, the risk to to our country and our constitutional democracy . Weve got to shore up every aspect that makes this nation a democracy, the oldest that the world has admired. Weve got to be bold in our actions, and i do think that there are bold democrats who recognize that a mild mannered approach is a yester year. The years of minority leader michael, when democrats could work together. So we want to work on the other side of the aisle. But were not insisting that working on the other side of the aisle has no that we can collaborate with, and that we have to have that. As we look at the january 6th committee, that has been doing an able job of democrats and two republicans, they have the strength, as you look at the litany of individuals from the Trump Administration who being called in, it seems that every staff member, miller, and others, it looks like the whole team was practically aware of and involved in january 6th. Were glad some of them are talking. Were glad Jeffrey Clark is coming in. But putting that aside, weve got to work for vulnerable americans, were bold about that and there are those of us who are going to insist on it. You may know im the author of hr40. That sounds like a striking legislation but i believe its a healing legislation and that is the legislation to study slavery and develop reparation proposals. 215 plus members have supported it. Thats a strong statement that we want a better america. So all i can say to you is, to be able to do this, the fight must be strong, you must engage with young voters, you must make sure that they know that democracy is fragile and its in their hands and we will win and be victorious, if there are diligent caretakers of democracy and they push aside what happened on friday with the rnc. Im wishing them the best, but lets push it aside and fight for americas democracy. Congresswoman she