The hello and welcome to to the point. Im you shop. How do you sign in here in berlin and today my guest up, walter. J. Lynn, now he is an ex german diploma. He wasnt positive of telling me need to india from 2019 to 20. 20 to jo sandoval is head of Global Dialogue on presentation of the bill republic policy institute gpi in berlin. And joining us via skype from handbook we have media improve thompson. She is lead research, a paid Research Fellow to German Institute for global and adf. So theyve got a very long but to come to all a few. Thank you for joining was are you have a long standing relationship with india you when that as a 21 years old to discover the country to discover yourself. And then youre tired as a master bill. Now youve seen and bill from 1970 is to 20 twentys. How hasnt yet changed . Well as, as a lot of things in india as everything is to other countries, also true. So it has not changed at all. And it has changed completely. No, it did change completely because of course theres no more than a state. You dont see the other friends on the streets anymore and you have of skies is a scope as everybody, if youre going to move by this is a different, a different rules. Now, every good because im all done. So it is nothing reminds you on the india for 50 years ago, but if you look deeper and then you see to, to reach out to see, to do see to the culture of 7000 youth. And in comparison with 7000 useful just for the 50 is nothings all you have to reach was you have to campus if the most, cuz you have all the cultural a insignia and, and uh, so this is all students have music go to rural india, youll find the india which you have seen 50 years ago and maybe 200 years ago. So modern india with traditional values. Now youre not only an ex diplomat, youre also musician. Youre also an all time youve written a book into. Im going to be 5 and think about it to loosely drawn state that says the old reyes on the new south. What we should learn from india before it is too late. What should the rest loan from india . By those points, of course, one is to see the europe and the rest is not the rest of the road. It is 20 percent of the roads and 80 percent of the roads are a global solid countries. So when the heads of the very often we look too much into a euro, scientific way, german centigrade and think this is what the rest of the world has to think. No, it is not. Because still other points if youre in the rest of the road. So this is, youll see a more globalized road with the indians. Indians have, have an and uh uh, all the indians living in other countries in most of the countries move of the world, maybe in 190 countries, you have a desperate, an indian desperate. Then of course, teachers at the station, then a young, a young generation, 50 percent under 35. 00. And then you have the risk taking into bruno ships in the ation uh to god, which is something typically they need deal with. So there are a lot of things which we can learn from india and most of all that we should dedicate more time and should listen to india. Thank you. Lets go to museum. Medium voltage is gave us a glimpse of how in the history and then the last 5 decades. Now, if you could specifically tell is how india has changed in the last one decade on the movie. Could you bring, does it make sense . Yes, i mean i fully agree that thats a lot of continuity going on. Um, i mean with my focus on sort of in yes, Foreign Policy and in the field of stature, i think the addition to play, and i think this is a quote from a ministry of external sales report to play the rightful place at 2222, re a c received the rightful place on the world stage. I think what has changed significant, significant base that india is now very close to this sort of self defined a global role. And i think moody him and his sort of very vicious international um, outlook on it. Yes. Global position, i think has contributed a lot to that. So i think um whereas india has always been on the way of reaching global stature, of having a extremely important and retro my School Position has always been there. I think its never been closing to joseph for actually achieving this. Now youll go on to the report card in the off to 2024 elections and more the same set to win this election. So yeah, what do you think is going to change in the next 5 years under moody . I would expect not too much to change. I think the challenge is, i mean the most domestic do them in the, at keeping up stuff that Economic Development and the Economic Growth at the level that that indian needs to be to achieve some rich goals. I mean thats been calculations that well in order to reach the, the, the, the size of, of marketing the size of the economy that is aspired to any growth rates of 10 percent. And i think thats a massive challenge. So i think that will be probably more or theyre very likely to be more engagement, more reforming the sector. I think in terms of again, foreign policies. I think in yes, doing a very good job at the moment to to go for its own interest in the way. So i dont, i do not expect too much change, but more going to genuity on the, on that right front the, youll see any change in the next 5 years. I think the big thing for the moody government will be to really keep up this promise of, you know, making india developed country by 2047. The economy is growing at a 7 percent g, d, p growth rates, which is very admirable. And its set to leap frog germany and japan, if it continues that to 3rd position behind the us and china. And so i think the economy and ensuring that job creation is there because it has an average 8000000 people go into the labor market. They new jobs to make it competitive and to also finding ways to continue not only Economic Growth but counterbalance to different security and the challenges that it has in the region and making sure to engage is with partners across the globe. While at the same time, protecting its own national interest, which is Economic Development. So i think the big hurdle will be to continue this and i think that will be the biggest challenge for the, for the government to continue talking about the economy. Me, my voting is on the way in india, an open in full suggest an easy victory for not into more days. The heart, the agenda about the to be to be. So why doesnt more the have to worry about any opposition in the election . It seems to boil down to the often repeated phase. Its the economy, stupid, but also to more these identity politics. Induce 1st, thats the ideology being used by Prime Minister moody to govern the Worlds Largest democracy. And its making him popular around 80 percent of indians are hindus, minorities, and opposition. Members, on the other hand, have reported instances of intimidation. Moody is popular because he has invested heavily and infrastructure and launch the social programs. During his 10 years of leadership, india has gone from 10 to the worlds 5th largest economic power surpassing its former colonial ruler. Great britain. India also wants to overtake germany and japan, by the end of the decade. The other high profile successes like the 2023 moon landing only underscore is in these emissions to become a High Technology nation. And yet poverty is still invisible problem and a country of approximately 1400000000. 00 people with an average annual per capita income of around 2400. 00. India barely out earns nicaragua, demographics, democracy, and diversity. For moodys point of view, this trip effect a is responsible for india as new york. Right. Is india on its way to becoming a superpower . Lets go to medium and understand what is a sofa fall exactly. Everyones talking about india being the next supervisor, but what does that mean as well . I think i think its hard to going to be talking about super powers in the Current International systems. I think were going to talk about several great palos or oppose in our, in our sort of multi polar system. But i do think, i mean, very concretely, it means for in the likely seat and the un security council, for example, a means to play. And i think thats going to india a string to not having to decide for one or the other for china or for the united states. I think thats one particular power that it yeah, at the moment exposes, um, i think its a b, b not being able to be overlooked in importance of well political Decision Making the climate change. Be it a, whatever resolution to their ukraine, cries it, be it sort of the next pandemic, so not to be overlooked, and to be considerate in and to actually not only be considered about to shape sort of the rules or norms that are going to structure the solution officer global challenges. So i think that so considering all of that in your payment is in the on the right path is in the, on its way to becoming also about um yes, i do think that in, yeah, this is going to have to be considered in all of these issues, i mean if were looking to climate change, the paris balls cannot be achieved without the indian action on climate change. For example, um india does have to watch out that its sort of its, it is writing conflict intentions with china of, of distracting it too much from the past. But i do think overall now as the sort of indian moment im in the sort of times of whatever station and conflict where i can play this sort of independence, the Foreign Policy out to its own strength. The right good. When we talk about sort of our economy plays amazing and you were talking about the economy and you know, there are these 2 extremes. You have the rising economy, the infrastructure is getting better, absolutely no doubt about it. Whoever has been doing that recently would say that the apple, its a better that im gonna have is that more data is etc. But forward to you on unemployment data mean big issues. How does that go hand in hand . Look, i mean, india and indians have ambitions and aspirations, right . India is being quoted by countries all over the world. It says, you know, its the voice of the global self. It has an economy that is the 5th largest in the world. But at the same time, it has a wealth gap that is tremendous. And its got one of the largest income discrepancies in the world between those were really wealthy. And those were really 4. But you have to keep in mind that the Indian Government has to do a balancing act. On the one hand, its trying to go in the economy. But it also has to, its responsible for 1400000000 people in this country. And its not going to happen overnight. This will take time. And the india is one, the Worlds Largest democracys. Its one to misuse democracies. And you know, its not going to just happen from one day to another. Its not going to happen within a decade. Itll take decades. So um i do question if india is on its path to becoming a super power in the most traditional sense, right. Like if you talk about the us hedge many decades ago, i dont think i think that will just behind us. But india is an important power, its an influential power and its voice matters. And it will increasingly matter as we move forward. But i asked is because its symmetrical and intuitive that the economy is rising and yet they need an economy is not able to generate employment for such a big huge it does generate employment and the government will tell you that it, it has generated employment. But the issue and critics, what they say is that the employment is in low paid jobs in agriculture and in jobs that are involving data, like they jobs, where much of it gets unpaid. For example, women do a lot of unpaid care work. So its not that the job to not there, but theyre not necessarily the jobs that the youth and people coming out of University Want because its not being generated as quickly as 8000000 people enter the workforce annually. Thats the challenge for any government surveys show that youre unemployment is one of the biggest issues in this election. Despite that most of your domains extremely popular and especially amongst butte, how do you explain that popularity . Well, like i said several reasons. Of course one is, i mean he is, he is 12. 00 twice a landslide victory. You cant win of a landslide victory and the worlds biggest democracy without being popular. So something along the way he must have done right. That people vote go out and vote for him in such a must be for a 2nd. Um, there must also be some of something in the records which he lives behind. Economic reforms of shop creation says, confidence, building and other things of which are positive to devote us. Thirdly, i think of course the concentration on his person and his p are machinery around him is also make, seem, uh, a pups are referred or follow us like, or are obama i guess, and inch popstars. So there are a lot of reasons, and of course i was maybe one of the reasons is the critics say hes not the hes the, the, the, into the station of the country of positives is new set is raising the self confidence and awareness of indians that they have a set and 1000 via old, unique culture, of course, criticize this is shrinking spaces for the, for saving society, whatever. But this, the, both of the decides. But i think there are a lot of reasons. And after all this, he has also a kind of a background which is a very humble family background and is kind of us, kate, big lifestyle. While maybe others into opposition could dont have this. And then his also had an old position which was for a long time, not really sure of should they go for elections and should dave, which would be, who should be the candidate. So this was also a fact of each of them. I would, i agree with the investor said, but i would respectfully also challenge the notion of why hes so popular. Its not just because of everything he said, but the critics have said that he has glowing Mainstream Media coverage at the expense of suppressing press freedom. On the other hand, opposition leaders have their finances frozen in the bank. So it hampers campaign financing. And you also have opposition leaders who are imprisoned on and to corruption charges shortly before the run up to the election. So when you close down the spaces, its not too difficult to become the main voice that people see people here. I give it to you that hes done a fantastic job with social media since 2014 elections when he 1st came on. He really capitalized, but its lets not paint or overly rosy picture. I think theres still a lot to be scrutinized and thats always statistics. I mean thats what its in terms of landslide. I mean, we are, we have sort of 1st past the post election system where like 42 percent give you a vast majority in the parliament. So i think the lens might also is sort of an effect of the Voting System and you have to do it more than half a month ago. The formality as well. Maam if youre going to follow the board that we just played in the studio, no more the stresses the importance of demography democracy and i was happy with everything that drill has also said to declare that democracy in diversity is exactly what is under threat under movie and thats what he is advertising that you know, this is what we need. Even in your report, you have mentioned in the us and echoed, ever less democratic country. Now, movie is also seen as addict adult and figure out in the west. I would like to understand for someone who has that a positive, how is it that we talk about line slide victories and that hes going to get a majority of how isnt that . So many people want to vote for someone who is such a director told you the personality i want, but i think i, i think it would be a little bit capitalistic tutorial. But i do mean um, what has just been that i think the encroachment on democratic freedoms has been very tangible. But at the same time, i think moody has managed to pick up a, a sentiment that has always been there. Sort of the nationalistic hindu focus sentiment that has always been there. I in preparation of today ive read about a polar where in 2974 percent of the sort of a survey said that india, this is sort of, should be very proud of itself. And has a better system than most other places, something along the lines and that, that has not shifted them with some of the 74 percent in 2009. And in the 2019 it was still over 70 percent. So i think the managers to pick up the sentiment very much while at the same time that of utilizing that of, you know, cause of nick somewhat under democratic means to, to enhance his brand and his grasp also on, on a, on society. Right. And investment countries, ive also expressed concerns about this what at the same time, they also want to strengthen that dies within the independent of its democratic regard. Meanwhile, in just Foreign Policy is based on the principle of non alignment. Whether its that i show you green bar, or the goal is or conflict, india under warranty has decided not to take any sides. Lets take a look at how india is navigating between the various power blocks or indian Prime Minister. Moody received a standing ovation when visiting us congress in summer 2023, where he was celebrated as a champion of democratic values. Chose to our partnership to our people, to the possibilities of life, had 2 great friends to great nations, into a great power. The western democracies are according moody, partly because they see india as a strategic geo political alternative to be increasingly aggressive china. But india has its own objectives. It has not clearly condemned as war against ukraine, and it continues buying oil and weapons from russia. The movie presents himself as a confident spokesman for many countries in asia, africa, and latin america. Countries for whom europes problems feel more distant. She said this today, india is the voice of the global sales. What Foreign Policy interesting is india pursuing under moody . Walter, how do you explain more these Foreign Policy . I think he has a very skilful of 5 minutes. So thats one of the points which is i think a big asset of what they do of today are very skillfully but mere inside the other side. He is maneuvering among all these big power interests and hes doing a great show up in, in making clear that india is not willing to be to follow the decisions of a new blog somewhere. But we have some nations gathered together and think they can make decisions for the rest of the about this time. So ill pass and go on and i think hes very right. Doing so, if you see 20 percent of your, of, of, of