Authors, kidnapping, disputing pulling the strings the news. Thank you very much. Indeed for joining us here on to the point to my guest here in the studio. Oh, good are in dover. Political scientists from bella rose. Her opinion is that bella, russian should not be punished with sanctions and locked inside bell roofs without connection to her. Also where this is daria to catch Oak Editor with the russian east. West tv in berlin, she thinks put in is still pulling the strings of lucas shank. Oh, if we want any kind of democratic change in belarus, we have to talk to one. Welcome to to alexandra fundamentally w brussels bureau chief. She says, sanctions against better ross will bE Useless. You see, youve doesnt formulate a strategy that takes the role of russia into account as well. Yeah, thank you very much. Indeed, a great input that to begin with, and id like to go to August 1st and just ask you olga, is it fair to say that for anybody who wants to see Peace And Democracy in Bella Ross in the near future . This has been a put a disturbing few days. Well, definitely for me, it was, i would say more shocking is the story. I mean, we know that beller is, is a long last and ill Talk Chris in the whole things that we have been observing in beller, is since august 2020. These things are shocking and his health. But what happened on the weekend is just an in, i like the fantasy to imagine, to be able to imagine something like that. Its really, i think it was a very emotional action, emotional decision. And well, what we think about the consequences that the political and economic consequences of this tap, its really not adequate for me. Said i was really surprised. I was shocked. Yeah. And am i right in saying that what we have seen in effect is a warning to journalists, a direct and very, and very dark warning to journalists, the critics of the regime endanger. I would say really not only journalists, but everybody who is now who thought to be face abroad, like the whole a positional leaders and people working with them. And people also present. And he and germany like blair was in the hospital, for example, activists who speak up for beller is of course, they afraid also for their lives now because they do not feel themselves safe. Also within the european, you know what you mean different before before this story. Okay, lets go to Alexander Phenomena in brussels. You have alexander for many as follow developments in bella rosen, ukraine, and in, in moscow very, very closely. So what do you make of this apparent state sponsored hijacking the we have witnessed . Well, i think that it was certainly an unprecedented incident and i think that its going to change it to change the approach of the European Union. And we saw it the reactions, European Leaders who were shocked and outraged. And they were describing the incident as a state sponsored terrorism, piracy, but they were also very concerned because as they put it, the lives also you citizens were at risk. We talking here about Hydra King of our diversion of a plane that was on its way from 1 pm European Capital to the over. So i think this is something that the European Union now has to deal with. And its an incident that is probably going to put a lot of pressure on brussels to do more. Okay. What do you say to that . That reaction in Brussels Outrage Fury . Is he going to to the suggestion that it is perhaps a Game Changer is going to be a Game Changer . While the little biggest thing that it has at least begun to be a Game Changer. I mean, there reaction was quite fast. It was also surprisingly fast. For me, fast, hard and quite emotional and we can understand and we just heard one of the reasons for that, which is actually what is different now, when we compare the sedation before that we can after. Its not only about democracy in human rights outside of the anymore, right. So its about also the security of the european citizens. And i think it was one of the, one of the main reasons why the decision was made that foss with, in just few hours, these hard decision that mrs. Turn off sco was kind of claiming for half a year or ask in the you for for, for half a year. Also hard sanctions if they really Campus Road sexual economic sanctions. Weve been talking about for half the already. And now this final story happens and its totally up on the agenda. So its really a different level of, of danger for the european units. Not only i say only, of course, its important democracy in human rights, but outside of thE U. And when we have citizens within thE U that i put under a put under danger by the low risk and authorities, its another level of also decisions and of political moment. For example, i just like to come back to you in just what, what if its, if this is a Game Changer . If that has been a tectonic shifted, the approach towards Bella Ross, what, what, how is that likely to manifest itself in the weeks and months that lie ahead . Well, 1st of all, what was just said as, as its right that the decision was made very, very quickly. And its very surprising we just have to keep in mind that we had to be crisis and the attempts by the European Union to issue a joint statement. One of those was the israel got a crisis and then china correct down on Opposition And Hong kong and in those very important foreign policy measures. Foreign policy matters while the European Union was not able to find a common position to issue a common statement because one Member State blocked those decisions. And now here within a few hours, you have a strong response. You have concrete measures that were agreed on like this disband of lending by the state, be a Lucy And State own carrier. The lobby, for example. Then the announcement of sanctions. And were apparently talking here not only about targeted sanctions against individuals or companies, but we are apparently also talking about sanctions against the whole industry sectors. So its really appears that the European Union, at least at the moment, is united and determined to punish location and hits a regime and also to make clear that they are not going to tolerate such incidence in the future. Thats bringing Tara Tara into the took the kremlin denies involvement and sundays operation. But a lot of experts say that President Posey would have known about the hijacking incidence. Whats your take on that . Very important question. Did he know what did he not know . I think were never going to know for sure if she personally said yes to this landing of a plane, or if he was somehow talking to a question on the days before. And theyve agreed that this is the way theyre going to for to savage. However, i think that it is not very important for us in europe to know where the pushing was personally involved with this particular answer. The incident in the mens care port on may 23rd. What is important is the put in is the biggest supporter of luca shinkel. She is giving him money. Russian border is essentially the only open water that still remains for bella. Ruth, there is a lot of interaction between the 2 governments and put in essentially is the one pulling the strings of Lucca Shinkel location, quite well known for acting on his own. Hes not exactly completely control by putting that would not be true worse. However, i do think that if europe on some kind of democratic change in bellows, they have to take in the account the position of russian and talk to russia as well. Yeah. And when we talk about the significance of russian, the significance of letting me push it, it has been suggested that what were actually experiencing is another exchange of fire in a, in a long to slowly escalating proxy war between, between uminski on one side and, and, and must go on one side and the European Union on the other side. Is that too far fetched . Well, its a good question. I mean, there is an interesting point of view that this particular act of gushing called the lending of the reiner plane, is his way of burning the bridges with the European Union. And thus kind of closing up to put in and showing that you really are my last supporter, i really have to depend on you 100 percent right now. On the other hand, it is well known to put in is not a fan of luca. Shanker, personally, there are personal relationship is not great. Location could also doesnt really like, wouldnt that much and you could even see it in the way that the station bella was initially covered by the russian state media like 1st Today when it all just started. Now its very pearl shinkel, but in the beginning there were of them somehow sympathetic for the protesters the 1st few days. It quickly changed. However, it is. However, what we can also look at is the treatment of the russian citizen location. Because girlfriend says if he is a big girl who is detained and bellows, and we do not really see many attempts of the russian politicians tried to flee her. Maria is horrible. The spokesperson of the russian foreign ministry said that the russian consul in minsk has talked to her, but that was all she said they didnt say oh, were working hard to free her. Shes innocent. None of that. So there must have been some kind of coordination in most mens can moscow. In this particular case, we will probably never know the extent of it. Ok, lets go back to Robot Process eventually and find out what his young political career tells us about the current generation of protesters and the mood in Bella Ross itself. Solidarity with very unfortunate savage but 26 year old co founded the Telegram Channel next to where he reported on Demonstration Arrest and violence and by the rest, he is now living in exile back in his homeland. He was wanted on challenges including and fighting protest against because Shame Cove last sunday i ryan airplane traveling between 2 E U countries was forced to Land At the F O Y a by the russian military jet, under the pretext of a bunch of savagE Under girlfriend were arrested immediately. 3 other passengers who voted the plain and as not arrive at the destination and lithuania. They were according to ryan s. C o michael oleary, Batter Motion secret Service K Tv agents, Video Participation since been released in it. He states that he is being treated fairly by the authorities. Us, however, believe it was obtained by 4. Is the point us average effect likely to explode . The, how explosive is the situation surrounding room and prophecy, which was quite frightening. I mean, we still have Death Penalty in beller. Bella versus the only European Country with the penalties to practice in practice literally every year. And he could facE Up to 15 years. We never know how the situation develops. I mean, in the worst case, i really hope it doesnt happen, but be dangerous to talk about is a very genuine shocking possibility. A yes, but once again hes, i mean the Death Penalty cases. We see it every year in valor is that its really about the, the nature of the autocratic state and it was never abolished. And valerie, that the problem hes actually official listen is a terrorist. And there is something really different just to be an oppositional leader or human rights defended or to be perceptive. The terrorist. Its an interesting mixture, journalist blogger, opposition, journalist activist abuse. So well dissident, hes been described, how much does he does . He represent his generation, still a very young. Hes 26 years old. Oh well, yes he is young, but i mean the role thats not t personally. I mean, he, there was a group of people who were in charge of this kilogram child, though it was crucial for organized and that Protest And Valerie last year, it was not the reason for the prude is but the managed through Telegram Channels through social media to organize people to mobilize then, and we saw hundreds of 1000 people on the street. So it was, its not about his personalities. It was real political danger for christian ken then. But when you mentioned this personality, there is, i, you know, i read constantly, that there is a very personal element to the animosity between the blogger and the president. Well, i dont know that i can only think that it could be true and lacresha and the person who, who never forgets his pines, and hes a bench oriented person in the course of this. We cannot exclude this a college factor. But once again, it was a real political danger back van. So its not only about some personality, its about organizing revolution and 11. 00 of the organizes of protest, physical or physical organizing that proved to the people which are ready to prove that they had this protest moon. But they managed to do it through social media and i think its of course, its also interest in for security forces. Just to get this information out to him how it really happened. Why, why it was that successful . I think they have the feeling. They said, i think the blow resisted has not under to what actually happened, but still want to understand what was that, what was it last year . These protest unprecedented pro to the last half a year. They still want to know what is behind it, and its not about the act open at the civic. Its about people, its about the change political reality. Embarrassed by this to you. How this hope is. They close everybody in prison or make them leave the country by invitation will come back, but it will not come back. Alexander, how are people, peter . Yeah, yeah, maybe i can just jump in if you allow me. Because i think this could also be that this incident, its not only about the blogger, its also about sending a message to the west of that location, is apparently think he can act with, with impunity. He can do whatever he wants to without feeling any major consequences. And this also could be a strong message to all other opposition figures, journalists, civil society, members, look, no one can protect you, i can get you. And this is of course, a very dangerous development, but that could be also part of his thinking behind what happens in minsk. Sorry, whats your, whats your response . This is this debate about whether the, you know, the personality of the, of Professor Bitch is important. Whether or whether Hes Part of the generation, is it the individual or is it the, is it the, the people surrounding him, people working with him as well . I think its more of the Telegram Channel next to him because i can say its journalist the you can call them proper journalists, they are biased. ThE Use even the figures, if you can see hate speech. Sure older can enlighten us more in this later, but thE Use very derogatory phrases. So for example, thE Use, the term you crushes, which is a mixture of 2 words for shift fascist on glucose shinkel. So they are openly calling, bluish police said its like they are very going to spreading this very particular, very aggressive, purchased mood under Telegram Channel. However, they were very good at reporting protests. They had a video feed, several vitos, put it every day, showing protests happening and very different cities around bellows. So be war. Of course, they were not why the protest happened, but they were an important part of the protest movement. They were way for people to feel connected and they played a very important role in that regard. And i think that is why location great for to savage, so much. Oh good. What can you add to that for us . I do completely agree. I mean, i also agree with the hate speech. We see actually both levels on the, on the level of media but also the levels Telegram Channels. Its really well because Everything Society is now really deeply divided and its not that good. But think about perspective for the time after the question can if we could imagine any kind of Reconciliation Society to me, its really, really hard. But if you allow me to come back just to change that to come back to the topic of the european reaction. Because i would like to react to this command from, from the click in process. Was that with this air bands for the recent airlines, the you intends to punish the barrison regime, which is understandable for me. But we fed in this statement at the beginning, i mean the question im asking my cell the whole time. I mean, what happens with a whole bill, a gruesome with all the bill i recent that are kind of unfortunately, and im surE Unintentionally from the you. But still kind of locked within their own country with such unprecedented level of repressions to happening. I mean, well know that since the end of 2020, but i recently have problems crossing the Land Boy of dollars because of the official of cabbage regulations. But we know that most probably of the reasons ill political, so air flights has been the only way for those who wanted to leave the country out of political reasons till now. Now if its really happened, is that the recent airlines cannot and to the European Union, what happens with the people . I mean, i just want to give this ethic was some kind of also discussed on the you level or you think it could some can be changed within thE Upcoming month or is it, is it on the agenda . Alexandra brussels. So its not, yes, its not officially on the agenda, but its fair to say that we can assume that that was discussed during the summer. Its also the leaders here in brussels because of course, they know that the European Union is walking a tightrope here. They want a rope here, they wants to punish the regime. They dont want to punish the people who feel they want to support and strengthen the civil society. But i think that the 1st Reaction and this Overflights Ban and then the ban for beloved to Land At many beloved from lending at the airport. It was also about safety. We talk about that. And then of course, it was also about sending a strong signal. I can imagine that you know, that they can review those measures after a while. And of course, they understand that its also going to affect a normal citizens. But we have to mention that they were even much more extreme measures on the table that were discussed in brussels like cutting off bending old traffic even including Ground Transit from viola was to the European Union. And they said no 2 to those proposals. So thats always a difficult decision, how to punish the government and not to punish the people. And of course you have to find a solution that all members can agree on. Thank you. Ok, very interesting. Those are the proposals. What do bunch of people in brussels imagine the impacts of those proposals is likely to be again in the next, in the coming days, weeks and months. While there are suddenly hoping to change the regime behavior. But as we could see in the past, look, shinkel more or less truck off everything that brussels were doing, any other sanctions imposed on the regime. But now they seem to be willing to go even further to, to sanction, to, to impose sanctions against the whole industrial sectors. Hoping that that could change. You look a shame because behavior a change the situation on the ground. And the other thing that there are talking about and have also implemented, its, you know, to, to provide the civil society with chances a to, to grow, to support them. They decided to, to, there are going to spend 24 millions 1000000 euros to, to, to do that. So thats also another thing that they are willing to do. However, we have to say that they toolbox is as limited as long as the russian president letting report, and its supporting minsk politically, but also economically. Yeah. And the top of the show said this is essential importance that we the you talk directly to vladimir putin, about the future of pelvis. What did you have in mind . I dont see that there is some big meeting of put in with stations burrell, also on line. However, there isnt the Board Meeting between them reported and by the president of thE United states in geneva. If i am not mistaken, middle of june. Yeah, that could potentially be the moment when they will talk about it. And as far as i remember, thE Us state has actually confirmed the races on the agenda. So maybe they can talk about something there. But it is really hard to do any kind of predictions here, put in is known to act, father unpredictably. Another important thing is that there is a general Election President ial election as well in russia. In september, the 19th, actually one week before germany has general election, 14 does not want to show, probably will not want to show any weaknesses before that, and thats really soon. September is not a lot far away. However, we cannot people often say that o, putting would like to and they expel the roof and completely merged us and bellows. Because this will give him the same booster, the writing as he did with crimea 2014. Thats not true. There is no 2nd. Crimea crania did have a certain effect and put in rating. He really did go through the roof. The moment it was the next, it is deflated. Now again. But bellows isnt some country. The freshmans one to see integrated into russia. Its crania, was such an issue. This was the only existing one. This is now gone. So it is really hard to predict what put in is. Welcome is ready to put in the Bargaining Table with a bite photo. Do you have any reason to be immediately optimistic about the situation . Just to round up the Show Today that there might be some a positional forces. In the end, we see the tensions. Maybe they will have more weight in europe that they used to be before due to this due to this is tory. I dont know really really everything is happening there is okay, well have to leave it. Weve been talking about the latest crisis in dela rosa, so thank you very much for joining us. Weve provided you with plenty to, to hold by by the news. The news the whos the the the the the, all the police were so cruel. I was terrified why i just find what can i do . My house is gone, torn down. Everything has gone. Lead day would lead to her death. The day after this interview. The competition for living space is matchless in china cities. In 15 minutes on d, w. O. Ah, the news. The secret was discover new adventures in 360 degree and explore the fascinating World Heritage site, the V W World heritage 360. Now hello guys. This is the 77 percent. 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