O oldest Kidnapping Protein pulling the strings. The news, thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point to minds you could just hear in the studio all good or in dover, political scientists from bella rose. Her opinion is the bill of russians should not be punished with sanctions and locked inside battle ropes without connection to your also where this is daria to catch Oak Editor with russian east, West Tv in berlin. She thinks putin is still pulling the strings of lucas shank. Oh, if she wants any kind of democratic change in Bella Ross, we have to talk to one. Welcome to to alexandra fundamental, w. Brussels Bureau Chief chief sanctions against ross will be useless. Hes the you doesnt formulate a strategy that takes the role of russia into account as well. Yeah, thank you very much. Indeed. A great input that to begin with and id like to go to August 1st and just ask you ok, is it fair to say that for anybody who wants to see Peace And Democracy in Bella Ross in the near future . This has been a pretty disturbing few days. Well, definitely for me, it was, i was say more shocking is the story. I mean, we know that bella, this is a long last to not talk chris, in the whole things that we have been observed in dollars since august 2020. The things are shocking at themselves. But what happened on the weekend . Its just an in like the fantasy to imagine, to be able to imagine something like that. So its really, i think it was a very emotional action, emotional decision. And well, when we think about the consequences that the political and economic consequences of this tap, its really not adequate for me. So i was really surprised that was. Yeah. And my writing saying that what we have seen in effect is a bullying to journalists, a direct and very, and very dark warning to journalists, the critics of the regime endanger. I would say really not only journalists, but everybody who is now who thought to be face abroad, like the whole a positional leaders and people working with them. And people also represent, and he and germany like blair was in the ass, for example, activists who speak up for bella, bruce of course, they afraid also for their lives now because they are not fuel than self have also within the european you know what you mean different before before this story. Okay. Lets go to Alexandra Phenomena in brussels. You have alexander for many as follow developments in bella rosen, ukraine, and in, in most very, very closely. So what do you make of this apparent state sponsored hijacking that we have witnessed . Well, i think that it was certainly an unprecedented incident and i think that its going to change it to change the approach of the European Union. And we saw it the reactions u a p and leaders who were shocked and outraged. And they were describing the incident as a state sponsored terrorism, piracy, but they were also very concerned because as they put it in the lives all thought you citizens were at risk. We talking here about Hydra King of our diversion of a plane that was on its way from 1 pm European Capital to the other. So i think this is something that the European Union now has to deal with. And its an incident that is probably going to put a lot of pressure on brussels to, to do more. Okay. What do you say to that, that reaction in Brussels Outrage Fury . Is he going to check the suggestion that it is perhaps a Game Changer is going to be a Game Changer while a little bit, hes seen that it has at least begun to be a Game Changer. I mean there reaction was quite fast. It was also surprisingly fast for me, fast, hard and quite emotional and we can and then, and we just heard one of the reasons for that, which is actually what is different now, when we compare dissertation before that we can after its not only about democracy and human rights outside of the anymore, right . So its about also the security of the european citizens, and i think it was one of the, one of the main reasons why the decision was made that foss with just few hours these hard decision that mrs. Turn off sco was kind of claiming for half a year old asking to you for for, for half a year. Also hard sanctions if they really come this road, sexual economic sanctions. Weve been talking about for well have you ready. And now this final story happens and theres probably up on the agenda. So its really a different level of, of danger for the european units. Not only i say only, of course, its important democracy in human rights, but outside of the u. And when we have citizens within the u that and ill put a put under danger by the low risk and authorities. Its another level of also decisions and of political moment. For example, just lets come back to you in just what, what is it . If this is a Game Changer, has been a tectonic shift to the approach towards Bella Ross, what, what, how is that likely to manifest itself in the weeks and months that lie ahead . Well, 1st of all, what was just said, as of right, that said the decision was made very, very quickly. And it is very surprising. We just have to keep in mind that we had to be crisis and the attempts by the European Union to issue a joint statement. One of those was the israel got a crisis and then china correct down on Opposition And Hong kong and in those very important foreign policy measures. Foreign policy matters while the, the repeating union was not able to find a common position to issue a common statement because one Member State blocked those decisions. And now here within a few hours, you have a strong response. You have concrete measures that were agreed on like this, this ban of blending by the state be a Lucy And State own carrier beloved for example. Then the announcement of the sanctions. And we are apparently talking here not only about targeted sanctions against individuals or companies, but we are apparently also talking about sanctions against whole industry sectors. So it really appears that the European Union, at least at the moment, is united and determined to punish location. And hes a regime and also to make clear that they are not going to tolerate such incidence in the future. Thats bringing Tara Tara into the fix, the kremlin denies involvement and sundays operation. But a lot of experts say that president puts him, would have known about the hijacking incidence. Whats your take on that . Very important question. Did he know what did he not know . I think were never going to know for sure. If she personally said yes to this landing of a plane, or if he was somehow talking to a question on the days before and theyve agreed that this is the way theyre going to get per have inch. However, i think that it is not very important for us in europe to know where the pushing was personally involved with this particular answered the incident in the mens care port on may 23rd. What is important is that put in is the biggest supporter of luca shinkel. She is giving him money. Rush and water is essentially the only open water that still remains for belarus. There is a lot of interaction between the 2 governments and put in essentially is the one pulling the strings of location location, quite well known for acting on his own, which is not exactly completely control by putting that would not be true. Morse. However, i do think that if europe on some kind of democratic change and bellows, they have to take and count the position of russian and talked to russia as well. Yeah. And when we talk about the significance of russian, the significance of letting me put it, it has been suggested that what were actually experiencing is another exchange of fire in a, in a long, slowly escalating proxy war between the, between the uminski on one side and, and must go on one side and the European Union on the other side. Its up to far fetched. Well, its a good question. I mean, there is an interesting point of view that this particular act of gushing, called the landing of the reiner plane, is his way of burning the bridges with the European Union. And thus kind of closing up to put in and showing that you really are my last supporter, i really have to defend you 100 percent right now. On the other hand, it is well known to put it is not a fan of luca. Shanker, personally, there are personal relationship is not great. Location could also doesnt really like, wouldnt that much and you could even see it in the way the station bella was initially covered by the russian state media like 1st Today when it all just started. Now its very prohibition cool, but in the beginning there were of them somehow sympathetic for the protesters the 1st few days. It quickly changed. However, it is. However, what we can also look at is the treatment of the russian citizen location. Because girlfriend says if he is a pedro who is detained in Bel Ruth and we do not really see many attempts of the russian politicians tried to flee her. Maria is horrible. The spokesperson of the russian foreign ministry said that the russian console in minsk has talked to her. But that was all. She said they didnt say, oh, were working hard to free her. Shes innocent. None of that. So there must have been some kind of coordination to move means can moscow in this particular case, we will probably never know the extent of it. Ok, lets go back to robot Processes Match and find out what his young political korea tells us about the current generation of protesters and the Mood St. Bella ross itself solidarity with very unfortunate savage. The 26 year old co founded the Telegram Channel next to where he reported on Demonstration Arrest and violence, and by the rest, he is now living next to a back in his homeland. He was wounded on charges, including inciting, protest against the christian cause. Last sunday, i write an airplane travelling between 2 countries was forced to Land At the mens by about the russian military jet, under the pretext of a bomb scan. Purchase savage under sales and were arrested immediately 3 other passengers who boarded the plane and did not arrive at the destination and lithuania, they were according to ryan s. C O Michael Oleary by the secret Service K T b agents. A video of it has since been released in it. He states that he is being treated fairly by the authorities. You as however, believe it was obtained by force is the point of average effect likely to explode. How explosive is the situation surrounding room and prophecy, which was quite frightening. I mean, it was to have the Death Penalty in bella risk versus the only European Country would this penalty still Practice And Practice literally every year. And he could face up to 15 years, but we never know how the sedation develops. I mean, in the worst case, i really hope it doesnt happen, but this danger is still talked about is a very genuine shocking possibility. A yes, but once again, his, i mean, the Death Penalty cases we see every year in beller is that its a, its really about the, the nature of the autocratic state and it was never abolished. And valerie, that the problem hes actually official listen, is a paris and bell ever since. Something really different, just to be an oppositional leader or human rights defend it, or to be perceptive is a terrorist. And its an interesting mixture, journalist blogger, opposition, journalist activist review. So well dissident, hes been described, how much does he does . He represent his generation. Hes still a very young. Hes 26 years old. Oh well yes he is young, but i mean the role thats not he personally, i mean he, there was a group of people who were in charge of this Kilogram China now. It was crucial for organized in that practice. And valerie last year was not the reason for the poor, but the managed through Telegram Channels and through social media to organize people to mobilize. Then we saw hundreds of thousands people on the street. So it was, its not about his personality, it was real political danger. Poor question can then, but when you mentioned this personality, there is, i, you know, i read constantly, that there is a very personal element to the animosity between the blogger and the president. Well, i dont know that i can only think that it could betray and look at one because a person who, who never forgets his points, and hes the bench oriented person. Or is this what cannot exclude the Psychologist Factor . But once again, it was a real political danger back then. Its not only about some personalities, its about organized and revolution. Invalid was a 11 of the organizes of protest, physical or physical organized. And that proved to the people which are ready to prove that they had this protest moon, but they managed to do it through social media. And i think its of course, its also interesting for security forces just to get the information out of him, how it really happened, why, why it was successful . I think they have that feeling. They said, i think the blow resisted has not understood what actually happened, but still want to understand what was that, what was it last year . These protest unprecedented pro to that last a half a year. They still want to know what is behind it, and its not about the future. Its about people. Its about the change political reality in dollars, but they still have this hope. If they close everybody in prison or make them leave the Country Dissertation will come back. But it will not come back. Alexander, how are people, peter . Yeah, yeah, maybe i can just jump in. Its me because i think it could also be that this incident, its not only about the blogger, its also about sending a message to the west of that location. Its apparently think he can act with, with impunity. He can do whatever he wants to without fearing any major consequences. And this also could be a strong message to all of the opposition figures. Journalists, civil society, members, look, no one can protect you, i can get you. And this is of course, very dangerous development. But that could be also part of his thinking behind what happens in minsk, sorry, whats your, whats your response . They say this debate about whether the, you know, the personality of the, of Professor Bitch is, is important whether or whether Hes Part of a generation. Is it the individual or is it the, is it the, the people surrounding him, people working with him as well . I think its more of the Telegram Channel next to him because i can say its journalist the you can call them proper journalists. They are biased. The use even the figures, if you can see have speech. Sure older can enlighten us more in this later, but the use very derogatory phrases. So for example, the use, the term you crushes, which is a mixture of 2 words for shift fascist and glucose shinkel. So they are openly calling, bluish police said its like they are very going to spreading this very particular, very aggressive purchased mood and their Telegram Channel. However, they were very good at reporting protests. They had video feed, several vetoes, applauded every day, showing protests happening and very different cities around bellows. So be war. Of course, they were not why the protest happened, but they were an important part of the protest movement. They were way for people to feel connected. And they played a very important role in that regard. And i think that is why location great for to savage. So much longer. What can you add to that for us . I do completely agree. I mean i also agree with the hey stage. We see it actually both levels on the, on the level of media, but also the level Telegram Channels. Its really will because since the site is now really deeply divided and its not that good. But think about perspective for the time after the question can if we could imagine any kind of Reconciliation Society to me, its really, really hard. But if you allow me to come back just to change that, to come back to the topic of the european reaction. Because i would like to react to this command from, from the click. And russels that with this Air Band for the recent airlines, the u. Intends to punish the barrison regime, which is understandable for me. But we said in this statement at the beginning, i mean the question im asking myself the whole time, i mean, what happens with a whole bill, a gruesome with all the bill. I recent that i kind of unfortunately, and im sure unintentionally from the you, but still kind of locked within their own come through with such unprecedented level of repression to happening. I mean when know that since the end of 2020, but i recently had problems crossing the Land Boy of dollars because of the official college regulations. But we know that those probably the reasons ill political. So air flights has been the only way for those who wanted to leave the country out of political reasons. So now now if, if it really happens that bill everson, airlines cannot enter the European Union. What happens with the people . I mean, i just want to ask you this as was some kind of also discussed on the you level or you think it could some kind of be changed within the upcoming month or is it, is it on the agenda . Alexander brussels. So its not, yes, its not officially on the agenda, but its fair to say that we can assume that that was discussed during the some. Its also the leaders he and brussels because of course, they know that the European Union is walking a tightrope here. They want a rope here, they wants to punish the regime. They dont want to punish the people who feel a roost. They want to support and strengthen the civil society. But i think that the 1st Reaction and this Overflights Ban and then the band for beloved to Land At many beloved from lending at the airports. It was also about safety. We talk about that. And then of course, it was also about sending a strong signal. I can imagine that you know, that they can review those measures after a while. And of course, they understand that its also going to affect a normal citizens. But we have to mention that they were even much more extreme measures on the table that were discussed in brussels like cutting off bending old traffic even including Ground Transit from viola was to the European Union. And they said no 2 to those proposals. So thats always a difficult decision, how to punish the government and not to punish the people. And of course you have to find a solution that all members can agree on. Thank you. Ok, interesting. Those are the proposals was due to people in brussels. Imagine the impacts of those proposals is likely to be, again in the neck, in the coming days, weeks and months. While there are certainly hoping to change the regime behavior. But as we could see in the past, look, shinkel more and less trucked off everything that brussels was doing, any other sanctions imposed on the regime. But now they seem to be willing to go even further to, to sanction, to, to impose sanctions against the whole industrial sectors. Hoping that that could change the cushing cars behavior, change the situation on the ground. And the other thing that there are talking about and have also implemented is, you know, to, to provide the civil society with chances a to, to grow, to support them. They decided to, to, there are going to spend 24 millions 1000000 euros to, to, to do that. So thats also another thing that they are willing to do. However, we have to say that they toolbox is as limited as long as the russian president vladimir putin. Is supporting men so politically, but also economically, you know, and the top of the show all we can said it is essential importance that we the, you talk directly to flooding, they put in about the future of tell us, what did you have in mind. I dont see that there is some big meeting of put in with seizures that burrell or sort of on line. However, there isnt a Board Meeting between one report and so by the president of the United States in geneva. If i am not mistaken, middle of june, yeah, that could potentially be the moment and they will talk about it. And as far as the, remember the us state has actually confirmed that the services on the agenda. So maybe they can talk about something there. But it is very, a hard to do. Any kind of predictions here put in is known to act father unpredictably. Another important thing is that there is a general Election President ial election as well in russia. In september, the 19th, actually one week before germany has general election putting does not want to show probably will not want to show any weaknesses before that and thats really soon. September is not last far away. However, we cannot people often see that, oh, put in would like to expel roofs and completely mergers and bellows. Because this will give you the same boost of the writing as he did with crimea 2014. Thats not true. There is no 2nd. Crimea, crimea did have a certain effect and put in rating. He really did go through the roof. The moment it was next, it is deflated now again. But bellows isnt some country. The freshmans one to see integrated into russia, its crania, was such an issue. This was the only existing one. This is now gone. So it is really hard to predict what put in is. Welcome is ready to put in the Bargaining Table with the photos you have any reason to be immediately optimistic about the situation. Just to round up the Show Today might be a positional courses. In the end, if we see the tensions, maybe they will have more weight in europe. They used to be before you do this due to this, right. As for that, i dont know really i really everything is happening there is okay, well have to leave it. Weve been talking about the latest crisis in dela rosa, thank you very much for joining us. Weve provided you with plenty of food for thought by by the the the the news, the news, the news. The news the news the the police were so cruel. I was terrified why i just find me. What can i do . My house is gone, torn down, everything is gone. Lead day would lead to her death. The day after this interview. The competition for living space is mecolas. In china cities. 15 minutes on dw me groping harassment. Theres hardly any female student who hasnt experienced this sexual violence in universities. In britain, Emily Eisenberg is fighting back the. Shes organizing protests on her message is loud and clear and stop right, coach on focus on europe in 90 minutes on w ah cruise, you know, we knew in germantown, we bring you ankle a mac or, and youve never had her before, the price just so with what is, what it will do is medical really wont move and want to people who follow along the way, admirers and critics alike. And how is the worlds most powerful woman shaking her legacy . Join us for macros . Last the the news . Its been ongoing quest for the spring began in 2011 people stood up against corrupt rulers and peter ship. All these moments had left the box and my memory the me they had hoped for more security, more freedom, more dignity, have their hopes. 10 years after the arab spring, rebellion starts June 7th on d, w. I. Ah, [000 00 00;00] ah. This is the life from berlin. Ruth, on the fire, over the 4th landing of an airliner at the end of a leading distance, gemini, foreign minister compares it to terrorism. European union moves to target sectors of the federal economy. Also on the paragraph, tens of thousands, 3. This is in the democratic republic of congo, very 2nd volcanic eruption to speak ah