Pressure to respond with unprecedented strength by canceling or pausing the nearly completed north stream to gas pipeline with russia my guest this week is germanys Deputy Foreign minister and meals on it is it time for a tougher stance against authoritarians in russia and beyond even if there is a financial cost. German minister of state meals on and welcome to conflicts appeared to have few tests confirm that alexina volley was poisoned with the military grade chemical weapon you know who took the german chancellor she has demanded answers from russia she says the following there are very difficult questions that only the russian government can answer and must answer. Russian response has been defiant will there be kneeling for sanctions well i still hope that we can prevent this but this is entirely the russian governments decision and i have to say i want to be very clear very very disappointed about that reaction because instead of making clear what happened and to cooperate in an investigation we are seeing the old scheme you know of misleading information of counter accusations so if that is the spirit of the russian government then im afraid were going to see this so were still in a negotiation or you say its in the russian governments hands and in fact youve called for an investigation in russia but the foreign minister says there are several indications russia was behind the attack youre asking russia to investigate what do you expect well look there is the procedure here and you mentioned that indeed it looks like we are we are certain that it has been a poison from some of a truck group. Actually right now its not only a german investigation and we gave the probe also to laboratories and sweden and france and we also gave it to z o p c w so it is quite obvious that this is a breach of International Law so i think we are talking not only about a tragedy involving mr no values this is an International Dimension so russia is in a position and has the ability to clarify what happened but but we also in in our intention to defend the International Procedures i think we need to have that process here and the process is not over but in that process mr annan theyre not taking you seriously are in a i mean just lets just look at some of the rhetoric that coming from the foreign minister which think we have an International Reaction so this is not reduced to draw many there supply a statement from the European Union the world takes notice so i dont think they dont take a serious i just things that they are falling back into what we know is the typical russian here are their words foreign minister lavrov accused western officials of quote putting themselves above the law with an since to unsubstantiated accusations against moscow over the poisoning of nirvana we also have a statement from the Foreign Ministry saying berlin is bluffing serving a dirty political agenda you dont exactly have them shaking in their boots look at that but this is just confirming what they tried to tell you that we have very disappointed to see you know the all the way of reacting to accusations instead of really engaging and i am sure it is the russian credibility is that we will be be infringed by this so we are united in the European Union we feel very encouraged by the International Reaction and we are not only. Talking about this case and not the only case of poisoning off an Opposition Leader we are talking about a serious step to the mining what have been a more or less Successful International coal mine show on the chemical weapons so i was saying we are not at the end here and the exemption thing i show might be violating the russian site needs to know that. Are on the table lets talk about you you mentioned an old way of doing things from from the russians and talk about the way that you have been doing things i asked you about meaningful sanctions because we know that sanctions are already in place of course since 2014 since the russian invasion of crimea but since then we have seen further aggression from russia weve seen the hacking attacks on the German Parliament 2015 weve seen the assassination of a Chechen Rebel in broad daylight in central berlin last year following that murder your Foreign Ministry you reportedly submitted 17 requests for assistance in solving that murder and received not a single response. Is just sanctions really going to pressure russia in the way that you need to what i am very happy indeed that you mention those incidents i am sitting here as a minister of state but i am also a member of the drum in parliament so what happened there was the hacking attack as a serious serious violation of our weight deal among countries that should have a friendly relationship and many other incidents also see its a targeted use you know of measures of fake news to troll factories that we are seeing settlers are part of the reality but its also part of the reality that we dont have we dont have a Remote Control to influence russian policies decisions are taking in moscow not in berlin but what the support and here and the sink we are making progress that the European Union speaks with one wise that the russian side now is said to their surprise to pay but we also need to be realistic we need russia to solve a great many of issues concerning our own neighborhood our stability so i think our approach to do both to be very clear but also engage washer i cannot really see an opportunity to that lets talk about the voice that youre speaking with because you have the nearly completed north stream 2 pipeline which is set to bring more russian gas to germany and id like to ask you do you think that putin really takes your threat of meaningful sanctions meaningful consequences seriously when you have such a profitable economic project right on his doorstep well that only shows how complex our relationship is. I want to be also a little provocative of my answer here because i am not so sure of stopping that project last winter but which by the way its not an initiative of the German Government it is by disappointed by the German Government it is by definition of a crowd wanted by the terrorist government now lets put that aside but you know would we do something as that really works. Make russia pay a price or would we also somehow do some things that goes against our own long term interests so thats why im not so convinced i understand this is that it has always been a controversial issue but its maybe too easy just to reduce our Political Tool box on the question whether or not we should continue nosferatu i am with all respect not convinced that this is the only answer that we should get so you turn to your partners now your partners including in the the e. U. Including also the United States and youve asked them you want to put forward a joint response but theyve always had problems with this project havent they many among them have had problems with this project partners have expressed security concerns that north stream too would allow putin to cut off gas supply to former soviet bloc countries without affecting flows to the west cut off ukraine potentially where 40 percent of the natural gas imported by the e. U. From russia flows through north stream one to neglect your own partners concerns look there are 2 things i want to tell you for one thing that maybe surprised you and our viewers that European Union is much more united on this and you maybe think we had a number out there all this Prime Minister yeah well we say this reaction should leave 1st so the stoppage of work of nordstrom to deal with strengthens russian power not 60 n. E. P. Is that absent 1018 but you can insert so you uniquely let me choose the european way but not the germany way for that you need to lead and you dont feel like you know that you need to let me complete that sentence because we had 24 european Member States supporting a political the march on washington raising concerns about the american reaction which is threatening with extraterritorial section our sovereign decision. About our Energy Supply just for the 2nd cent about the European Union would put in place a law section in American Companies just that bethany pick one example for example the z a stunner shing fact that nobody speaks about dizzee americans right now buying oil from russia almost and the war you mean that were buying gas from russia so you know we need to look at the facts against the 2nd part of this German Government at the top the chancellor and the from minister. Have been engaged and are engaged to safeguard ukraine score interest he said the deal that we signed with the European Union broke up but de facto was brokered by our government between ukraine on the one hand and the Russian Federation on the other hand make sure that key concerns of our partners within the European Union and in kiev have been implemented so as i said its too simple just to say my closing austrian too will solve the problem dont hassle it if if if anyone really believes that youre going to take a hard line on russia the ultimately when push comes to shove even when it does come to ukraine because for example you and the foreign minister michael moss are both s. P. D. Politicians and in the s. P. D. In the affidavit there are many who are strongly opposed to halting the construction of this pipeline for s. S. I. They have their eye on the star of the other there are a lot more that. Also has a following all of them or its very much in pipeline from russia to germany should not be used to punish moscow over the poisoning of a kremlin critic Alexy Novelli the so decide on has called the s. P. D. The north stream party they have a point dont they no they say that they say that youre motivated by a traditional empathy with russia no they dont have a point and id like to remind you you know were used as social democrats that were pro sobering here in our positions you know were somehow getting used to this kind of action station but that doesnt make them correct you know Energy Policy of course is highly political we need to make sure that theres a clear mix between the renewable we need reaching technology garces much more efficient and less harm to the environment we have to address an elephant in the room because we were talking about the s. P. D. Were talking about your party and its relationship with russia the elephant in the room of course when we talk about north stream. Is. Former chancellor former s. P. D. Head chairman of the project the wall street journal strode or putins most important of iraq the the what do you know how feeble what that do you feel comfortable with that it is that putins most of the horton goldberg wall street journal has traditionally been maybe not the most sympathetic to the social democrats but that tell you something i have been maybe the most vocal critic of gatorade us policy and you know he is somebody who needs to accept that public criticism for privatization he takes but hes a private to the citizen hes not sitting in an alley body of the s. P. D. So the esprit de cannot be blamed for what does it really realistic though that hes a private citizen haphazardly it is ok so hes a private citizen and so we were talking about meaningful sanctions part of the meaningful sanctions was that they would be targeted sanctions against individuals correct he has spirit so therefore if hes just a private person working for putin should he be among the individuals who might be targeted in ascensions regime gets what as a result is out of the poison in your legs in a on the acbl youre trying to get me but im not going to defend a private decision by a former translator who in other parts i think. Has been very successful and important for germany we always knew that if you dont know its very dramatic remember fasher on russia maximum in russia but but this is what hes doing was not stream is he is feeling a seed. For European Companies so you know that theres always that network that narrative sets is only a german project there are actually companies from other European Partners also and of so i really think were now spending and its your questions im trying to answer thats ok with me but were. Spending more time talking about last dream to right now then were spending time on talking about our difficult relationship with russia and i also want to again the remotest arc of the relationship with russia of course and i said youve got your own cleansing reaction nomic ties with russia it is a complex relationship you know our american friends have an ocean between them and russia we dont we have to join and shared history russia is not going to go away and that decision about where russia saudi may be influenced by us but the russian position so we are talking about peace in libya you need to talk with russia were talking about peace and syria like it or not you need to talk with russia and there are many other aspects so we are trying so dialogue that we dialogue no matter why we have dialogue or not very much to the causes no matter what russia doesnt know we this is very important to me because its really what i believe in is that we are in a world where apparently many of the step louche rules are not binding countries like russia unfortunately even sometimes countries that we are more close to so germany is in the central position geographically in europe its the most important economy we are not you know projecting military power so we are we need to rely on the willingness and ability to apply by those rules and thats what we are trying so you cannot cut off the dialogue with russia but you need to be very clear look and thats what we are lets talk about another country where you have a lot of dialogue we have to mention is going to china now also in the news for its continued infringement of human rights and rule of law similar to russia in a speech before the parliament on september 10th you said the following human rights are a central element of our china policy hows that working out for the prodemocracy protesters and on what we are. And i hope that im not going no its not im not intending to to criticize any of our European Partners but to really think sometimes. We need as a government explain more what were doing is saying that germany is maybe the only relevant country right now that is addressing human rights issues with china on every high level meetings that we are having sometimes we do that publicly sometimes dont we dont do that publicly because were talking about individual cases we havent as that pushed human rights dialogue and and quite frankly we tried to celebrate you were trying out some of the in order to generate more european unity also on human rights but outlets about the message that you are sending that you might have the dialogue but the message the real message that youre sending how can china really believe that you are serious on human rights when in every state visit you show up with a huge business delegation and id just like to go to the last one with the german chancellor Angela Merkel that was in september of 2019 where amid the crackdown on the prodemocracy protesters in hong kong she sat along the tinies premier and in her visit it was crowned by overseeing the signing of 13 business deals between german and chinese executives in the great hall of the big people in Tiananmen Square is a trade off for human rights because thats what it looks like i dont think that it looks like that i dont see that this is a contradiction i mean if if if the policy would be to completely exclude trial from Political Landscape and from our political thinking. Well i think we are not going to serve our interests and i am very concerned that this is going to happen if we are live listening to some of the very inflammatory rhetoric right now we need to wipe falling back into the logic of a new cold war but you ask about the effectiveness of our policies and i can tell you that there are many cases and some prominent cases like that whatever of the Nobel Prize Winner who came in to freedom and could leave the country because of very very high level interventions from germany and theyre back not always the case theyre there and id like to id like to bring in i just want to say is that there is. And i mean we cannot ignore that there is a temptation for many leaders around the world. Not to do that what were doing a from a government because they believe that if they dont address human rights issues that may be because going to philosophically speaking and thats not what were doing and im very proud of philosophically speaking when we look at your overall diplomatic strategy we have for example your economy minister saying just back in july in a conversation with politico he said i still believe in transformation through trade transformation through trade when it comes to china your own German Industry Association has come out and said they published a paper last year calling for a tougher approach to china their message was the wests strategy for opening china has failed you know this is a wake up call but they have said its going to be the case of china isnt it isnt both outdated and naive to think youre going to have transformation 301. 00 is not happening to make one comment because you were really asking me a system on the question of me and my boss cycle miles being members of the social Democratic Party