On the. Phone or welcome to this weeks show where were going to try and cast some constructive light on the racism and discrimination that are apparently rooted in our societies im peter craven and these are my guests in media roy french my birth she is the founder and executive director of the center for intersectional justice thats a berlin based organization compacts inc all forms of inequality and discrimination in europe and that she says as long as there is racism in germany the word racist must not be removed from the constitution as opera homes. Also with us is Brendan Keith brown hes a Classical Music conductor working with renowned orchestras here in germany who believes its important to speak his mind on issues like race and exclusion and brandon says reflection on racism is only tolerated when people of color on. And a very well welcome to so many im going to unfold and journalist with the german weekly sorry to say nice there in germany too we must have known youd be sions in addressing problems of Structural Racism and above all Police Discrimination and brutality. Thank you all 3 for being here the media would like to begin with you Something Big is clearly happening hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets in europe and the us we ceded to will before are you confident are you hopeful that this time something more might come of it well what i think is that what is different from before is that. There seems to be a collective epiphany on the fact that racism is real and that it has really deeply a deep roots in our societies not only in the us but also in europe in germany france belgium spain italy and and in that regard i feel like theres a readiness to have open conversations about it and for example such a set would i dont think it would have been think of all 567 years ago. And so thats what im hopeful yes and hope hope is different from optimism it means that i i have hope that things will evolve in the right direction it doesnt mean that there are concrete and material science that show me that its the case currently but what i see is that the fact that. In the mainstream were speaking about structural systemic racism that we are speaking about Police Brutality and also putting in question the legitimacy of an institution like the police is giving me hope ok well tell me this your organization we just have the name of the organization the center for intersection of justice and its aims to come but all forms of inequality and do stay in europe the question is how so how i mean we have a strategy that is very holistic and we dont tackle the problem. For just one angle 1st of all from multiple axes so when we say equality and justice for all we mean or more like liberation and liberation and justice for all we are not looking at discrimination from single axis like its been the case just on the axis of gender or Sexual Orientation or a class or race but were looking at the entry cape relationship that exists between old those systems of oppression but also all these discrimination by mentions and if they can we do this through advocacy in the way the sentence so it includes of course direct classical advocacy with policymakers at government level parent level we work closely with the European Commission and the European Parliament but also from the bottom of meaning working with Civil Society and trying to amplify movements through a change of narrative a change of discourse when we speak about this communication ok mohamed you have written about every day racism that people of color are confronted with in majority white culture. What have you learned its a fight its not easy because i can see right now in germany a discussion where a lot of germans by germans especially they say oh races and Police Protect you thats something in the u. S. We dont have that in europe we have right now the minister of interior affairs who is putting pressure on a journalist who wrote a text about Police Brutality threatening to sue her and that shows how White Supremacy is trying to stop this conversation at the same time we cannot do that anymore because we are here and we are allowed. One example youve just given of discrimination here in germany is your overall sense that you are living in a society that is moving forward only moving backwards i think its more visible its not about for what backwards what happened to judge floyd bilin ching we just saw it on video that was happening the whole time and now people are starting to take pictures to tell their stories to have the opportunity to write books in the Mainstream Media for them thats the difference and i dont think that i can at least say oh its Getting Better or its getting worse from my perspective so theres a readiness that you talked about and theres a there of people but. People of Color Community of you so will his get is getting a higher profile in germany as a result of a new level of consciousness i mean also people of color you have black stories you have in germany a lot of germans from turkish states and who are up to and for example the consciousness comes because there is more and more. Voices. That now they can speak and. Set having said that there are more and more other voices trying to stop those people to tell their own story and to change something in institutions how the society thinks about stuff and also talking about resources who can talk about what and how. Brandon music conductor weve made the point already at the same time you are somebody who who is driven to get a message across you have a sister of sin you know protest about this about the world you see around you tell me more why are you so vociferously well Classical Music is the only genre really that divides a divided society by race and class in such an extreme way and what were finding out during kovac is that whites playing whites for whites isnt working isnt working for the genres who sustain this honor and what i believe if you want to change the racial conscience of people you have to affect their spirit laws and politics of course is not going to change the minds and racial conscience of people so what we need to do is to force people to develop empathy and i believe you can do that through sound getting people together of different walks of life different nationalities different religions different colors different races together and to share in the through sound this is the type of in that the that will go into the policy that will go into the streets and this is something that you cant emulate through any other aspect of society and youve been here in germany youve been doing that for 4 years i what is your whats the difference between for you between American Society the American Society that you have lived in the jail and the German Society that you do live in war you know what would you like to communicate to our audience about on the surface africanamericans typically say at least they dont shoot us here very often they dont shoot us too often here it still happens quite a lot and its not covered in the media in germany so in a surface level that theres not this you know perpetual fear of being shot by the police but at the same time the racism is more insight. It is and more back by the government the fact theres no racial census here so the government of germany basically says that racism doesnt exist and that if youre not count you dont germany does not say that racism does not exist standing there you know i think what they say if i may i think what germanys saying is that racism is an individual interpersonal phenomena in and that is not routine in institutions and in the system so theres. A lack of recognition of the existence of systemic sedition or racism and racism individual racism is mostly pushed to certain groups like neo nazis like you know by people who are intentionally racists because we dont have this imperial data its very difficult to justify every day racism is very difficult in the United States we have this imperial that in the u. K. You have this data on Police Brutality racial profiling its very difficult to find out about discrimination and health care here all of these things and my sense is that that is changing the more information more statistics more figures are being counted and that the. The tell me oh no its not actually there is if i may there is a few studies for example about Police Brutality in germany and that people and people of color i worked for years about on this topic and they is one only one study revealed showing how big the problem is so i also seem right to think this Big Government backed government should investigate is the incidences of racism in america its very to complicate it but the state and federal government investigate when you go to the cafe and they kick you out they do it for free here in germany have to pay a lawyer short of lawyer has white fragility the judge doesnt want to deal with this either they also have the same racial conscious of white germans who were raised as you cant count on the government to help people who are victims of racism in germany. I can remember germany 20 years ago it was a very very very different country it was mono. Ethnic in large measure it was more the cultural and measure from my perspective it was the question we had that we just now whether this is you know societies change whether its moving forward or backward my sense is that germany has made huge steps forward and just one more thing you know the sociologist michel the month in many sociologists internationally when society becomes globalized the more inequality is created the more separation we have its like all in vinegar people dont all hold hands and kiss when the wall came down the east and west did not all hold hands and kiss it still fairly separate when the refugees came the german people all of them didnt just walk in them in to their neighborhoods we still have pictures on the resume if you have wearing a job youre not going to be invited youre not likely to be invited for that job why are pictures on the resume were still looking at the way people look how imitation white german can you become to have access to society im sorry i dont know if you really changed that much yet also when you say that 20 years ago germany was very no ethnic and won a cultural i dont think it was the case its just that people were invisible. They were you know this generation of socalled guest workers and their descendants their children and grandchildren who did live here but they were recruited in certain areas and did not have access to Public Discourse they do not have access to visibility in the public space and this is maybe what has changed a little bit i wouldnt even go as far as saying that it has really tremendously changed but what has brought awareness as i said more and more people coming from other countries people of color coming from france from belgium from the us are making their way to germany and also exposing those issues but we havent really gone beyond the exposure and this is only right now happening that racism is really has come forward and im not really sure but i think balancing. One sandy you have been so patient but ill bring you in next we need to just move it myself but its not ok. The long and the very top see debate on the impact of race is also recently manifested itself here in germany and europe and the us as well in a global wave of protest actions against monuments statues and other ounce of facts celebrating and even glorifying racism and colonialism theyve been toppled lets get a quick feel for thats all about and well talk about that too. There he lives Christopher Columbus this statue in the u. S. State of minnesota stood for one of the most important people in World History the man known as the discoverer of america but for many people especially those in latin america his name represents the beginning of a period of great suffering marked by the oppression and exploitation of the indigenous population. That is caution over monuments commemorating the colonial era has been reignited in europe as well including here in the english city of bristol edward constant is remembered as a philanthropist by some and is a slave trader by others the bronze monument has now been yanked from its pedestal and shoved into the harbor by protesters. Across belgium and numerous statues of king leopold the 2nd have been covered with paint or pulled down to protest the monarchs reign of terror in the congo. And in germany there have also been demands for years now to rename monuments and streets that pay homage to germanys colonial past. To uphold or to tear down do we need to rethink our culture of remembrance. As one big important question 1st of all id like to go right back to mohamed i was very rude to cut you off there can you build a bridge from what weve just been listening to thats where you were in the point you wanted to make try. It also depends where you are if you can see how homogeneous the German Society is where the decisions are made thats a very wide space usually in journalism in politics in Civil Society and the discussion also is for example what happens right now in berlin with the anti discrimination law which is talking about Police Brutality they have a lot of the most lore of its kind in germany when i talk to my friends from the us for example they are like you dont have an anti discrimination law like im on a. We dont know what happened a lot of all those white men in this case im sorry. Are trying to say we dont need this law this is discrimination against police and thats also this discussion with this monument for example who decides how our public space we share it how the space looks like usually its not black people its not people of color and usually the backlash is oh you do identity politics i mean if your identity of really matches an ugly monument like this thats very sad. Things to do bates is very interesting brandon said hes tired of it hes bored by it all what skitt emilio 1st of all the structures the monuments debates on us where youre coming from well i think its symbolically very powerful because we see that its happening everywhere in the world and so im coming back against my idea of a clue to the idea of a collective it differently knowing that we want to. So i think its fair to what was said base we want to lift the veil of it could be cold of silence you know or the veil of skewed hes 3 and and the images for me are really powerful in the sense that he questions the power and he questions the invisible objective neutral norm that is supposed to represent history and science and in that sense its raising a lot of voices so many different perspectives and telling one side of a history of history and so theres an african prevent that says until the line can tell the story of the hunt only the hunter will be glorified and this is exactly whats happening so thats why by tearing down those statues were sitting the record of history right in the sense that we allow another perspective on history to be shared and we also. Pay tribute and respect to the victims and survivors of slavery of the genocide that have been committed against them and heroes here in germany so few people know about that for example and so thats why i think its its powerful and really long overdue so i think that this is a very passionate take on the debate you were you did say while we were listening to the reports. That you found the the debate to become tiresome well what white people really hate is taking away their individual lissome and when you generalize about why bill you become very defensive the fact is that why people have to decide to reflect internally and stop focusing. On the externalization of racism i grew up in the south lots of confederate flags lots of statues about slavery i know how people think and and how they really feel about racism taking statues down is not going to change the racial conscience of of white americans its its beautiful its passionate but in the long run its not going to change much but dont you think that we need to have like change happening from a very different angles and its organic and that you know having this can help as well trigger change and i know white people in america dont like the look and the feel of racism but putting steps in place to give cultural access and cultural membership to people of color especially musicians like im coming from there not willing to do it tearing down a statue feels good it makes you look good in empowers you but what happens after you take down the statue are you going to hire black people in the workplace or you can get black friends 75 percent of all white people dont live around black people which makes the Self Reporting of racism suspicious and its even more so in germany so its wonderful take them down of course but its not going to change anything. I would i was in charge its that in february and they have to same discussion and i had to i had the feeling there its a bad ground its a proxy discussion for a so much more so i would argue it doesnt harm if this idea as a statue is gone but also i would see both of you and i agree that it does makes it make a difference in the public space but it does not change that so many black people and people of color are living in the conditions of course i want to take down the people who own my ancestors but is that really going to change things im not sure its lifting the veil. Well more than more or less every 4th person here in germany has roots samsonite the country and sadly these germans are often excluded theyre given a very hard time in large measure because of how they look one case in point in corona times is the many asian germans who say that they are feeling the brunt of racism on a regular basis most of the book. Victoria korean movies germans our parents came to germany long before she was born shes used to encountering prejudice because of her appearance. After the corona outbreak began in china and the 1